He deleted the Email exchange between himself and an Ebay "official" that was just as hilarious as the rest of the ad. Is it any wonder hes just a "leetle" frustrated? The funniest thing about it is that on the original ad the Buy It Now price was $5!
This is the email that started it all off:
Dear ninteen11
It has come to our attention that your account has been in violation of our Firearms policies on more than one occasion.
Rather than suspend your eBay account, I wanted to take the time to give you a formal warning. Any future violations of this policy may result in the suspension of your account. Please understand that this is not a threat, but is meant as a courtesy.
If you are unsure, or if you have a questionable item, rather than risking further violations and account suspension, it would be best for you to write to us about the item before listing it. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions.
You may contact us through the following Web page:
http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/contact_inline/selling.htmlAsk about selling (for sellers only) > Listing and managing your item > Is this item allowed or prohibited?
We respect and value you as an important member of the eBay community, and would like to keep that relationship intact.
Thank you for your cooperation in this important matter.
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
eBay Inc
I REPLIED���
>> Message: Hi,
>>
>> Ive received your threatening email and am quite put out by your lack of knowledge relative to the situation.
>>
>> My ONE & ONLY violation was to INCORRECTLY list a 9 shot magazine as a 10 shot.
>>
>> There has been NO other violations.
>>
>> In the past, you have UNFAIRLY and IMPROPERLY cancelled a number of my auctions simply because of your automated "dob in" system. Most of these cancellations are related to the sale of INERT BRASS and other NON AMMUNITION items.
>>
>> There are many EMPTY HEADED people who dont seem to understand what constitutes ammunition though it is clearly defined in the fire arms & dangerous weapons acts of each of the states & territories. I understand that ebay uses these definitions for ammunition and I have diligently complied with them in order to avoid prosecution and to keep ebay happy.
>>
>> I would appreciate it if you would investigate the FACTS before threatening me.
>>
>> I await your apology.
Ninteen11
THEN THEY SAID��..
>> Hello,
>>
>> Thank you for your e-mail.
>>
>> In regards to the 303 drill rounds (inert) not ammunition (Item #:>> 6505309284) auction that you listed, it was in violation because you stated that the items were brand new and unfired. Furthermore, there is no mention that your item was unprimed. You will need to indicate that your item is unprimed as well show that it has been fired and is useless.
>>
>> Thank you for your time.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Prod (name changed)
>> eBay Customer Support
>> _______________________________
>> eBay - Australia's online marketplace
>>
>> *******************************
THEN I SAID�����.
> Original Message Follows:
> -------------------------
>
> Thank you Prod (name changed),
>
>
> I appreciate the reply, however, again you have it WRONG.
>
>
>
> The "brand new unfired" 303 item you refer to was UNPRIMED BRASS and a SEPARATE ITEM to the drill rounds you cancelled.
>
>
>
> The UNPRIMED BRASS (relisted & sold as item 7128034425) was brand new and had NEVER been ammunition at any stage in its life. According to the firearms and dangerous weapons acts of all Australian states & territories (and Ebay policy as I understand it) ammunition must consist of primer, powder, case & projectile. EMPTY CASES can never be considered ammunition because of that. The term "UNFIRED" when used in relation to BRASS CASES means that the cases have NEVER EVEN BEEN USED AS AMMUNITION and not ex-ammunition that has been fired and is now simply brass casings. I also included a disclaimer in the item description that read "THIS IS NOT AMMUNITION" to help the mentally deficient understand. I note that
I do understand that explosives cannot be sold on ebay but that should not even rate a mention.
>
>
Also, there was no need to further mention that the item was unprimed because BRAND NEW "UNPRIMED" BRASS is,,,, by nature,,,, unprimed.
>
Relative to the 303 DRILL ROUNDS. (relisted & sold as item 6505549020) They were CLEARLY DESCRIBED AS "INERT". When the term "INERT" is used in the context of cartridges it means that there is nothing of an explosive nature about it. Further, DRILL ROUNDS - by nature - contain NO PRIMER, NO EXPLOSIVE and no flash hole through the primer pocket - which means that it has NEVER BEEN AMMUNITION - NOR COULD IT EVER BE MADE INTO AMMUNITION. These "DUMMY ROUNDS" are used by the military (et al) for the purpose of teaching people how to load and unload magazines/firearms safely, without the possibility of an accidental discharge whilst being educated. The reason an accidental discharge is impossible with drill rounds is because they are NOT AMMUNITION - they come from the factory WITHOUT POWDER OR PRIMER and have red lines painted on them so everybody knows that they are as dead as Monty Python's parrot. If any body had bothered to read the description this would have been blindingly obvious.
>
>
>
> Finally, Im very careful how I describe the items that I list because I fully understand that there are many gun hating people out there that will do anything to have a firearms related listing cancelled. I also understand that, now-a-days the average person does not understand "diddly-squat" about firearms and related items so I try to make it easy for everyone, so, if you, or anybody else bother to read my description you will see that I do not list prohibited items.
>
> It is a shame that those in charge of cancelling listings dont know anything about the items that they are cancelling.
>
> You obviously dont understand the Acts, what constitutes ammunition or even your own policies & that translates to unprofessionalism of the highest order and, finally, I do take great offence at being threatened with suspension when you are SO VERY WRONG. (Even though you say that your threat is not a threat).
>
> As your reply to my previous email only strengthens my case, and highlights your error, I still await an apology.
>
> Regards,> Ninteen11
TO WHICH THEY REPLIED���..
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to write to eBay. My name is Oonaloo (name changed), and I appreciate the opportunity to help clear this up for you.
>
> First of all, I appreciate your patience in waiting for a response. We have had unusually large amounts of email volume, and are working hard to address your issues in a timely manner.
>
> Now, in regards to the auctions that were removed from eBay, Item #s 7127779825 and 6505309284, I have found that they were appropriately removed. Please allow me to explain:
>
> 7127779825 ("303 BRASS NEW") :: Nowhere in your auction did it state that the brass was unprimed. This is why your auction was removed. We are not experts -- when listing brass, please make sure to indicate whether or not they are primed, and if they are primed, whether or not they have been fired.
>
> 6505309284 (303 drill rounds) :: Although you did state that they were inert, you would still need to mention how they were made inert (e.g. powder removed, primer removed or fired, etc.). You must specifically mention whether or not the powder and primer are included. If they never contained powder/explosive material, nor primer, please state this within your auction. Mentioning the fact that they are "dummy rounds"
> with no powder/primer would have resulted in your auction *not* being removed.
>
> Now, you do a wonderful job explaining these items in your emails to us. In order to avoid future auction removals, I would suggest putting in as much detailed information in your listings.
>
> In regards to the notice you received regarding possible suspension, please understand that it is not meant as a threat, but rather an informational notice bringing to light policies and guidelies which sellers may not be familiar with. Rest assured that your account will
> not be negatively affected should you comply with our policies.
>
> Should you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
>
> Regards,
>
> Oonaloo (name changed)
> eBay Customer Support
> _______________________________
> eBay - Australia's online marketplace
>
> *******************************
AND THEN I WROTE���
Greetings Oonaloo,
I still do not accept that you are acting according to your own rules or acting fairly for the following reasons.
1 You quote the links to the firearms acts of the states & territories but do not seem to accept their definition of ammunition.
2 I cannot find anywhere in your guidelines & policies that state a need mention primers or powder for NON AMMUNITION items to be listed.
Further, with item 7127779825 ("303 BRASS NEW"). Brass is brass. Thats it. Brass is NOT ammunition. Never has been and never will be. Brass is a non explosive COMPONENT which the acts you quote confirm in their definitions. The following is a quote from section 4 of the NSW Act.
"ammunition" includes:
(a) any article consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a primer and a projectile, or
(b) any article consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a primer and containing a propelling charge and a projectile
Relative to item 6505309284 (303 drill rounds). Drill rounds are manufactured without any explosive components at all. Again, according to the acts, they are not ammunition. The terms "drill" & "dummy" are synonymous.
Neither of these items should have been cancelled. It appears to me that you are simply defending your actions rather than making a right decision to acknowledge your error & apologising to me.
My questions now are these:
1 Why quote the acts if you dont accept their definitions?
A disclaimer that says "THIS IS NOT AMMUNITION" should be more than adequate & is what I (and many others) have done in the past.
2 How am I expected to know what your requirements are if you dont let me know up front? Now, if you have got instructions somewhere that tell me that when listing inert cases or non explosive components that I have to specifically mention that there is no explosives involved - please direct me to it & I will humbly & sincerely apologise for not doing the right thing from scratch.
3 If explosives are not permitted at all on ebay, (and I fully understand that they are not & totally agree with that) why do I have to mention that there are none with my brass cases but am not required mention that there is no explosives with any other item I list? eg: A teddy bear? "This teddy bear has no primer or powder". "This 25 piece socket set has no primer or powder?" If explosives are so horribly forbidden, perhaps we need note that there is none in anything and everything that we list?
4 When an alleged listing violation is reported by a member of the Ebay community, is the listing checked by a human being or is it automatically deleted by your "dob in" programme? Im sure it is automatic because a human could not be so totally brainless as has been demonstrated to date but I just have to ask. It will explain a lot.
5 How come I can quote to you many recently completed auctions for similar items to the ones you cancelled that have no mention of the non existence of primers and powder?
Here are a few examples from the last couple of weeks:
7132836718 223 brass NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER" (they do say "inert" but you say that doesnt count)
7132654075 222 rem brass NEW UNFIRED. NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER" It says "UNFIRED" thats bad according to you.
7131709122 308 brass NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
7129516001 223 brass - same again NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
7132782664 projectiles -just as much a component as brass so no different and... NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
7132422502 projectiles as above
7133489680 Projectile AND cases. - This is REALLY REALLY bad. Especially because there is NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
7131068831 Brass - more of that EVIL UNFIRED brass and again NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
6510054858 drill round - NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
6510054600 drill round - NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
6510253250 303 BRASS - this is a BRILLIANT ONE - IT SAYS IT IS PRIMED!!!!!! but no problems for him huh?
6508786063 SHELL CASES - these are really big so they must be really bad and again NO MENTION of "UNPRIMED" or "NO POWDER"
There are plenty more but I think Ive made my point clearly enough.
I hope you have taken the time to look at these, and, if you are honest, you will begin to see why Im a little disappointed in why my auctions were cancelled and these were not. I see 2 different standards at work. Also, I note that I have listed numerous auctions for brass in the past simply with the disclaimer "this is not ammunition" (with no mention of the non existence of powder & primer) and these auctions have completed without
incident.
You say that your letter relative to suspension of my account was not a threat "but rather an informational notice bringing to light policies and guidelines which sellers may not be familiar with". Again, please refer me to the guideline/policy that requires me to mention primer & powder & explain why the above completed auctions were not cancelled.
Now, relative to YOUR SARCASTIC COMMENT on how "I do a wonderful job explaining these items in your emails to us" and "I would suggest putting in as much detailed information in your listings", may I suggest that you exercise some COMMON SENSE. Please refer to all these completed items above again. I will though, give a very, very detailed description in future BUT can you guarantee me that my auction wont be cancelled even if I do kowtow to your request?
Any way, Im still waiting for that apology.
Regards,
ninteen11
AND NOW!!!!!!!!!!
The long awaited reply that fixes everything (well almost)
But wait � PAYPAL ME NOW at
hvclc@hunterlink.net.au this might be cancelled before you finish reading.
Hello,
Thank you for your reply to our inquiry. This is Oonaloo (name changed) again, glad to be of further assistance.
Please allow me to quote from your email so that I may fully address
your concerns:
"... 1 Why quote the acts if you dont accept their definitions?
A disclaimer that says "THIS IS NOT AMMUNITION" should be more than
adequate & is what I (and many others) have done in the past. ..."
I do realize that "brass" is not considered ammunition, so please let me apologize (gotta love those words!!!! Edit.) for the potentially Misleading subject of our email. However, although it is not complete ammunition, brass can come primed or unprimed, and here is where the problem lies. eBay does not permit the sale of brass with primer. Because we are unable to tell (unless otherwise stated or shown in an image), whether or not the brass has unfired primer, we do ask that sellers specify this in their listings either in text or image form. Stating "this is not ammunition" does not clearly enough indicate whether or not there is primer, and this is why we ask that sellers specifically state whether or not there is primer, or (if there is primer) whether or not it has been previously fired. That said, you can see that our policy does not go against the states' acts in regards to its definition of "ammunition."
"... 2 How am I expected to know what your requirements are if you dont let me
know up front? Now, if you have got instructions somewhere that tell me that when listing inert cases or non explosive components that I have to specifically mention that there is no explosives involved - please direct me to it & I will humbly & sincerely apologise for not doing the right thing from scratch. ..."
I do realize that our policies may not specifically cover every single case of what is acceptable/unacceptable to list on eBay. As you can imagine, if we included every single scenario on our policy pages, our members would have to wade through pages and pages of policy, which may end up doing more "bad" than good. Please Remember that our policies are meant as guidelines and we do ask our sellers to use their best judgment in applying these guidelines to their listings. Sometimes after having reviewed our policies, sellers may list something and have it removed from eBay. When this happens, we urge them to write in to us in order to find out exactly why a listing was removed. It is also then that we are able to specifically address the situation, and fully explain to the seller what it was about their listing that caused it to be removed. It is also then that we are able to provide suggestions and tips on how to list items in a way that will prevent them from being removed again. This is the case in your situation. Although complete instructions on how to list brass are not Explicitly stated on our policy page, I am suggesting to you to specifically mention that there is no primer. Of course, you are free to decide to accept my suggestions or to reject them. However, I am telling you this because I am trying to help you list your items in the best way possible to avoid having your auctions removed.
"... 3 If explosives are not permitted at all on ebay, (and I fully understand
that they are not & totally agree with that) why do I have to mention that
there are none with my brass cases but am not required mention that there is no explosives with any other item I list? eg: A teddy bear? "This teddy bear has no primer or powder". "This 25 piece socket set has no primer or powder?" If explosives are so horribly forbidden, perhaps we need note that there is none in anything and everything that we list? ..."
The reason that I suggest mentioning that there are no explosives (i.e. primer) in your listings for brass is because these items are meant to be used with primer. Additionally, some brass is sold primed. We do ask that any listings for items used in conjunction with any type of explosives mention whether or not there are explosives included, and this is for the benefit and safety of our members. Any auctions with explosives will be removed, and in the case of auctions where it is not mentioned, we will err on the side of caution and remove the listing. In your example of a teddy bear or a socket wrench (I am assuming), they are not primarily intended for use with explosives, nor do they require explosives in order to function -- it would not be necessary to mention that they do not come with anything explosive.
"... 4 When an alleged listing violation is reported by a member of the Ebay community, is the listing checked by a human being or is it automatically deleted by your "dob in" programme? Im sure it is automatic because a human could not be so totally brainless as has been demonstrated to date but I Just have to ask. It will explain a lot. ..."
Yes, an eBay representative (human) does review each and every listing reported to us, one by one. It is only then that appropriate action is taken on listings, involving item removals, account warnings, or no action at all. Please note, however, that humans also do make mistakes at times.
"... 5 How come I can quote to you many recently completed auctions for similar items to the ones you cancelled that have no mention of the non existance of primers And powder? ..."
The Community Watch Team understands there are auctions currently running or have successfully complated (including your own) on the site that are in violation of our listing policies or guidelines. Please understand that with over 1 million active listings at any given time, it is not always feasible for us to be aware of all violating listings within the time frame of some auctions. I know this may not seem fair for listing policy violations, or when members like yourself report these listings and bring them to our attention, we fully investigate each report. Listings that are found to be in violation of our policiesare dealt with appropriately, and repeated offences are dealt with appropriately.
To submit a report to us, please do so through the following link:
http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/contact_inline/index.htmlIt's important that you do not treat the action taken on your listings personally, but rather as an informational alert to make you aware of our policies. While it may not be immediate or obvious, other sellers who are engaging in listing practices which violate our policies will eventually have similar action taken.
We will also look into the items you have reported to us as quickly as possible. eBay's Community Watch team reviews all user reports of items,normally within 24 hours.
In regards to my comment on how detailed your explanation was regarding the cases was not sarcastic at all. I am sorry if that is how you understood it. I honestly thought that the information you supplied would have definitely prevented your listings from being removed, which is why I suggested that you included that information within your listings.
Finally, I can tell you that, if you comply with our policies and take our suggestions regarding your listings, your listings should not be removed from eBay. If you are unsure about whether or not the way you are listing your items are compliant with our policies and guidelines, if you would like to send me the item number of your completed listing, I will be happy to look over it. Even though I can't officially endorse or approve the listing, I will let you know if I see problems with it.
I hope that I have been able to address all of your concerns. Once again, please let us know if there is anything else we can do for you.
Thank you for being part of the eBay community.
Regards,
Oonaloo
eBay Customer Support
_______________________________
eBay - Australia's online marketplace
*******************************
AND I FINALLY SAID
Greetings Oonaloo,
Thank you for your reply. Firstly, let me thank you for your apology. It is gratefully & graciously received & accepted. Thankyou.
Though your reply was thorough I am still concerned about a couple of areas.
From your email I understand that there is no where in your policies or guide lines that require what you are asking. It seems that you cancel an auction and then create a reason for doing so. In fairness, there is no way I could have been aware of your requirements short of being a mind reader.
Please let me kindly tell you how majorly frustrating it is to be 8 days into a 10 day auction to have an item cancelled because some one suffering from hoplophobia has a foal. Sometimes you can receive a LOT of questions in that time and have some SERIOUS money bid on a USELESS item and �bang� its all gone. (Sorry, I shouldnt have gone �bang�- I will remain inert.)
Even if I have done NO WRONG, except in failing to provide information that WASN�T REQUESTED of me I get the autobot emails and come one step closer to ebay extinction. You see, from what I have learned in this course of correspondence is that my �violation� was NOT in what I listed but in NOT PROVIDING INFORMATION that there was NO WAY on God�s green earth that I had a fair chance of knowing.
It would be as silly as you cancelling an auction for a motor car because there might be petrol in the tank and petrol cant be sold on ebay because petrol is bad therefore we better cancel the auction because there might be petrol in it. I hope you see my point.
I would like to state though that it would be much fairer if you set the rules before the game starts then play by them rather than endlessly changing them all the way through.
I am astounded to read that an actual human reads the community dob in reports. This must be how Ebay fulfils its equal opportunity employment programme. However, I really don�t see the need for such a position to exist when all the gun related stuff take sometimes more than 12 hour to appear. Do you read all the hunting related items before posting them? If so, why do we get cancelled half way through auctions? If not, why does it take so long for my items to be listed when they go straight on when I sell in other catagories?
I would like to know that.
Finally, in an effort to help all, to set a good example and to show that those who enjoy the legal, recreational use of firearms (and associated items) are friendly and happy people I will make my Item descriptions as detailed as possible so that there is no possibility of confusion in the future.
One last thought, can I get kicked off for giving too much information?
Thanks Oonaloo, I look forward to your reply.
Cheers,
Ninteen11.
