Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa An unusual offer, so am putting it in the Africa section

Luv2:

Sounds like you have had positive experiences with Ray to date. Cool and good on both of you.

In an attempt to bring some perspective to the thread and your past experience with him and considering what he has posted regarding this particular hunt with all the current "unknowns" and incomplete info posted and all the WAGs going on would you take it as of right now - risking your funds and possible health and well being?

And as an American I should care about anything in Zimbabwe, or Africa for that matter, because why?

Or, extend the conversation, why would it matter to me, as a U.S. citizen, if the people of Zimbabwe killed and ate THEIR wild game? As long as the protein isn't wasted. People all over the world still practice inefficient slash/burn cultivation that destroys trees with more value than the crops that replace them and only the rainforest preservation groups seem to care. Wasting trophy grade animals or commercial grade timber, isn't it equally wasteful?

It is bad luck for the white Rhodesians/Zimbabweans to have been born at a time when the black majority took control of the government and have pretty much destroyed the country, but, again, as a U.S. citizen, why would that matter to me?

Jeff

PS: I don't know about your ancestors, but some of mine have been in the U.S. prior to the U.S. Revolutionary War, well before any people of European descent have lived in Southern Rhodesia/Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.

I suppose if you have no interest that wild species get wiped out because of rampant poaching and are gone forever, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Personally I'd like to see it preserved everywhere. And the protein would be wasted when the elephant rhino, leopards etc are killed just for their ivory, horns and capes, but again it appears that does not matter to you as well. And just to keep facts straight, the first European settlers started colonizing Africa in the late 1500s and they like us, displaced (aka "pacification by force"the native populations to further their own hegemony. Don't get me wrong, I a believer in Social Darwinism so I have no issues with that, but I do take the extermination of say the American Bison as unfortunate; as an American...

1. There weren't any Europeans colonizing what is now known as Zimbabwe until the 1800s, via Cecil Rhodes' British South African Company, so today's Zimbabweans of European descent couldn't have had ancestors there since the 1500s.

2. I'm not missing passenger pigeons, at least that I know of, and I think that bison is over-rated and would be better if it was grain-fed in a feedlot before being killed and cooked. I like marbled meat.

3. Starving people will often "eat the seeds" and the Zimbabwean people are starving today because they, as a group, didn't have the skills/education necessary to run their country as well as it had been run by the Ian Smith white minority government. Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it comes with a cost and in Zimbabwe, part of that cost is that the people were free to set the stage for mass starvation when they threw the white farmers off their land. A lose/lose situation, but a situation that was predictable.

4. I think that AIDS is the greatest hope for African wildlife. Fewer people = fewer mouths to feed.

Jeff

1652, Jan van Riebeeck, under orders from the Dutch East India Company, established the first colony at Table Bay. The settlers built Fort Duijinhoop, which was replaced by the much more formidable Cape Town Castle in 1666 (Google is a wonderful tool). Granted they did not move north until much later, but then again neither did the US move westward until later as well. The Portuguese were there since the 1400s. Point being, the hunting industry there is a benevolent entity that protects wildlife and the remaining white citizens of Zimbabwe should be supported, at least in my opinion. I could give a ratsass about Mugabe and his lot. Has nothing to do with being an American, but a hunter that enjoys hunting on a continent that is *my* opinion has no equal anywhere else.

260,

I have never seen any meat wasted in Africa, ever. Everything but the contents of the intestines is used everywhere I've been.

That was my point to Jorge2, that starving people sometimes are reduced to "eating the seed", so it is reasonable to assume that the average starving Zimbabwean would get more immediate value from an animal that he kills for himself and his family, than an animal that is killed by a trophy hunter and from which he might get a share. I doubt very much that the average Zimbabwean get much, if any, direct benefit from the safari industry. Either way, it is a moot point, since I'm never likely to be in a position to impose my way of doing business on anybody.

Jeff

It depends what you define as "average" Zimbabwean. In the areas I hunted, virutally 100% of the meat (with the exception of what was eaten in camp) went to the local villages as well as a substantial amount of the trophy fees and that went DIRECT to the villages under the CAMPFIRE agreements, exceeding by a considerable margin the average Zimbabweans income of 400 dollars/year, so Mugabe for the most part could not get his hands on it; hence the local populations in the countryside would benefit from not only a considerable amount of protein but hard currency with which they could by grain and seed to increase their crop yield. Once the animals lose their considerable value they would be no more than meat on the hoof and would soon disappear. Trophy hunting is a good thing for the people of the Zimbabwe countryside and a great thing for the animals. I just can't see why so have an issue with that.

JorgeI:

I've made three trips to Namibia with a fourth planned for next year. I would love to hunt Zim but like a lot of people, I'm conflicted with the situation - don't want to do anything to support "Uncle Bob" and his cronies on one hand, but don't mind supporting the "locals" on the other.

Questions - how can a hunter be sure he is dealing with a "campfire" organized hunt vs one with ties to "Uncle Bob" and don't the gun import fees etc (minor amounts I understand) go to the regime?

yes I would say its between the hunter and the guy who found the hunt we are talking once in a life time here. I wish I had the money to have the hunt and the heads would worth way less that the film in my mind. Rum lover I say go get it have you checked what the price is on stuffing the heads really high and shipping the film best of both worlds. I could see sitting down with the inlaws with pop corn and saying we are going to see a new movie just come out and the look on there face when you dust a few of those very large critters good luck to who goes and post short movies Please! PS any one having a rem 700 rum pm me I have two and love them 338 & 375 when a 300 comes my way at a good price I will get and the 7mm too I am a rum junkie

Sounds to me like there's a ------ in the woodpile here!!

where do you guys get the time to write all these posts and still have time to hunt. or don't you hunt your own country any more? the day i have time to write all these arguments and counter arguments is the day i am not hunting any more and consequently the day i die.

it is just fascinating to watch foreigners dish out answers to African problems.

i hope these posts doesn't reflect the type of conversations around the campfire when you are over here in Africa.

I withdraw my post after all the great reading maybe this guy is not real or decent I would be a little worried about ZIM I had a shooting buddy who was there getting a paycheck in the 60,s said its not such a nice place and the people are rude. so I decide wash my hands of the whole thing good luck with all the hate . I posted with out doing full reading for that Im not sly . If I had the money to go I now think I would look for someone with 20 years of good hunts and a list of happy people who hunted with the guides . hind site is 20/20 they say regards I think all of us would like to hunt over there and many will not due to cost and resources are getting less I would rather read about that hunt and make all those fine critters go away forever IMHO

Dan, I agree with you. If you go back and look, the vast perponderence of the posts are from people who haven't been to Africa. I do think Ray's offer should have been looked at harder by him[personally I think it stinks], that being said, you got a couple of guys raising a stink[one with a personal vendetta, the other, just because he's a dickweed]. People should be aware of a hunt, before they book. Ray kinda stepped on his d**k. Then you have the peanut gallery expousing their theories, just to up their post count.......nuff said.


maddog

With golf shoes.

Sorry;your an agent its your job to make sure the offer is square BEFORE you want to "make a few dollars".

Sound familiar;


Wildlife slaughtered for ZANU PF rally
ZIMBABWE CONSERVATION TASK FORCE


11th October 2010

WILDIFE SLAUGHTERED FOR ZANU PF RALLY

Last Thursday, 7th October 2010, in Gokwe, President Robert Mugabe held a ZANU PF rally combined with the official opening of the Women's Empowerment Bank.

In order to entice people to attend this event, 3 elephant, 3 buffalo and a number of smaller animals were shot and cooked. It is common knowledge that under the current economic climate, many people in the rural areas are starving and will make an effort to attend any function where free food is available.

hey guys, look at Africa, only been there twice, so I'm no expert, but the history is. Compare it to USA...... lots of differant Indian groups, that were killing each other. as Africa have for ever before the white man... we came in & put ' order' into the mix...now years latter the power has turned....and they start killing each other again...no diferant than whats going on in Afg or Iraq right now...we will never change it... because democracy is a concept their culture does not comprehend. tough deal!!Most have no concept about the rest of the world, they only see the world that is in their close proximity. As most of the third world areas do. I'm rambling now!

This has been fully entertaining.

Many years ago I to had a booking business & reached the same conclusions you did. I don't have enough knowledge & have no interest in doing the research several "Ray Haters" have conducted to know the right or wrong in this $hit storm. I personally know Dudley Rodgers & worked several outdoor shows with him. Dudley is a very stand up guy & is dealing with the mess in Zim as well as he can. Several years ago Ray offered a hunt for Buffalo in SA at a good price. I run an outdoor show for our Safari Club chapter in the DC area & have worked at the Safari Club convention so I have a few connections. After checking with several outfitters & The Hunting Report I suggested to my friend that he book the hunt with Ray. The hunting community is actually a rather small knit group & an outfitter or booking agent screwing clients is rapidly found out. Its very hard to satisfy some hunters & its not unusual for some good outfitters & booking agents to have a negative report filed. The good ones usually resolve the issue frequently at a loss. It seems strange to me that if Ray is out misrepresenting hunts & screwing clients there would be negative reports. I am not aware of any negative reports being filed. I would suggest to those that are in the "Ray Hate" mode to surface those negative reports. The buffalo hunt went as advertised & my friend had a great experience. I for one have read more than enough about this topic.