I have an unheard of two cull hunts for Buffalo and Elephant in Gokwe in Zim.
7 days for 2 hunters, 2 elephant, and 2 buffalo, $17,750. each all inclusive except for optional tips.
It is a problem cull hunt of sorts so only pictures and memories, no trophies home, but a chance to shoot buffalo and elephant at a really discounted price. Also a cameraman is available at $200 per day.
OR
one hunter 7 days (maybe 14 days not sure)and you get 4 elephant and 4 buffalo all inclusive for $35,500.00
I thought this might be an opertunity for our 24 hr guys. I have not seen this before.
End of October 2010 only. I am sending an email as to can a hunter shoot any size elephant or buffalo.
I got my reply and you can shoot any size elephant or buffalo you see. but in the time limit of 7 or 10 days, you must take the animals as they come 20 lbs to 50 lbs. on elephant and the buffalo are the same deal and they run 35 to 38 av. in that area..
Also I negociated the one hunter take all 4 elephants and 4 buffalo to a 10 day hunt...
I have an unheard of two cull hunts for Buffalo and Elephant in Gokwe in Zim.
7 days for 2 hunters, 2 elephant, and 2 buffalo, $17,750. each all inclusive except for optional tips.
It is a problem cull hunt of sorts so only pictures and memories, no trophies home, but a chance to shoot buffalo and elephant at a really discounted price. Also a cameraman is available at $200 per day.
OR
one hunter 7 days (maybe 14 days not sure)and you get 4 elephant and 4 buffalo all inclusive for $35,500.00
I thought this might be an opertunity for our 24 hr guys. I have not seen this before.
End of October 2010 only. I am sending an email as to can a hunter shoot any size elephant or buffalo.
Ray, who is the safari operator?
I got my reply and you can shoot any size elephant or buffalo you see. but in the time limit of 7 or 10 days, you must take the animals as they come 20 lbs to 50 lbs. on elephant and the buffalo are the same deal and they run 35 to 38 av. in that area..
Also I negociated the one hunter take all 4 elephants and 4 buffalo to a 10 day hunt...
Ray, who is the safari operator you are booking this hunt for?
This is a very shady deal all the way around. This is in all likelihood an illegal hunt Ray, please answer the above question
Drummond
The only shady deal around here is you!
The only shady deal around here is you!
Really Ray? Just a quick question, do you put any effort into researching the hunts you advertise or do you just take the word of the people that want you to sell a hunt? I will also ask again, who is the safari operator that is running this hunt.
It really is simple to just answer those 2 questions Ray, is there a reason you won't do so?
Drummond
have a question......why does it look like a shady deal.....have seen advertised and read about many similar hunts.....didnt sound out of the ordinary to me.....
OK, lets keep it simple. If I were interested in this hunt, who would I make the check out too?
How much of a cut does the booking agent get? Maybe Ray doesn't want to tell, so people can't circumvent the middle man and book directly with the source?
How much of a cut does the booking agent get? Maybe Ray doesn't want to tell, so people can't circumvent the middle man and book directly with the source?
Ray doesnt want to tell because he is selling a hunt for Gokwe in Zimbabwe and the safari operator of the 3 Gokwe concessions had never heard of Ray Atkinson before he posted his advertisement over on another website.
Here is an email from Dudley Rogers, the owner of the Gokwe concessions that I have copied and pasted from another website. Needless to say, he's not a happy camper right now.
Dudley Rogers owns the rights to hunt Gokwe and saw this post. He emailed me about it.
He asked me to post the following email so that none of our members get caught up in this illegal Elephant poaching scheme.
I did contact Ray by email and his reply was that I should mind my own business ... among other ramblings.
Fair enough. I have a trophy Elephant hunter in Gokwe during the exact dates as this advertised Elephant Poaching hunt. So, this is my business now. Plus, I do not want to see any AR members get "taken" or thrown in jail in Zimbabwe.
------------
Greetings,
I have seen these "Gokwe hunts" being offered on AR and other websites by this guy Ray Atkinson whom I do not know, and being carried out by an operator Robbie Kruger, who I do not know. He may be another South African trying to squeeze in on illicit deals with politicians in areas that do not belong to him, just like Russ Gould, Lawrence Botha, Baleni and Ben Cotzer.
The other thing is he may be using the name of "Gokwe" to cover up "Park hunting" to make it look legal, and how would any client know that he is NOT hunting in Gokwe when he goes in to a park or forestry area. You know that I have all three Gokwe concessions, and NO ONE can hunt in ANY part of Gokwe without our permission.
Please send me all the info you can on Ray Atkinson, and these web pages so I can contact National Parks about it. I will send a quick email to The Hunting Report, Dallas Safari Club and SCI warning their member to steer clear of this clown Atkinson. Can you give me the contact info for your USF&W and the FBI to investigate these offers on your side? These adverts which indicate organized poaching will involve the "Lacy act" in the USA if any parts are imported into the country, like an Elephant hair bracelet for example, or even an Impala or warthog or any other animal if it is exported through another operator.
Since these are not sanctioned by the community, where do you think the ivory goes? It will certainly not be turned in to the community! This is nothing more than an organized Elephant poaching operation.
I have found Robbie Kruger Safaris web page and though he advertises Zim, he does not mention areas, and no pics in the gallery??? Also saw Atkinsons web page.
Please post this email on these web sites about this "POACHING SCAM". I am sick of these people who have no ethics and no respect, running illegal poaching operations in my concession.
Cheers DudleySo Ray, I'll ask again, do you even research the crap you advertise?
Two years ago this month you advertised a hunt in NM and told people that they could hunt both rifle seasons with the same tag, which is illegal, and now this. Seriously, it should not be up to the people that read these hunt offerings to determine whether they could potentially be committing a felony by taking your word for things. Anything that was harvested illegally that crosses a state line or an international boundary is a Lacy Act violation and thats a felony.
Drummond
It is a problem cull hunt of sorts so only pictures and memories, no trophies home, but a chance to shoot buffalo and elephant at a really discounted price. Also a cameraman is available at $200 per day.
OR
one hunter 7 days (maybe 14 days not sure)and you get 4 elephant and 4 buffalo all inclusive for $35,500.00
I thought this might be an opertunity for our 24 hr guys. I have not seen this before.
End of October 2010 only. I am sending an email as to can a hunter shoot any size elephant or buffalo.
Rays quote about not being able to bring anything home makes a little more sense now. A non-exportable buffalo? The only reason it would be nonexportable is that it's not on quota. There is no reason to deny the export of an animal that is on a legit quota.
A non exportable elephant makes sense as it can be legal (in Zim) but the operator is unable or unwilling to get a CITES permit. Buffalo are not governed by CITES.
I guess Ray can now figure out why hes never seen this type of offer before
Drummond
+1 ... Seems you could get yourself into knee high chit if your not careful.
OK, lets keep it simple. If I were interested in this hunt, who would I make the check out too?
There is really no "simple" answer, Ray would get one for sure and if you factor in bail, bribes, attorneys fees and fines there could be quite a few checks written.
It would be easier to contact Dudley, write him a check, and go about it the right way
Drummond
Sure wish Mr. Atkinson would clear the air here if that is possible.
This whole thing is astonishing!
How much of a cut does the booking agent get? Maybe Ray doesn't want to tell, so people can't circumvent the middle man and book directly with the source?
Usually 15% of the daily rates. In SA the agent often gets 15% of the trophy fees, too. He gets nothing for the government fees, charters, ect. It wasn't enough for all the problems with TIA, so I closed up and let the big agents have all the problems.
Anything booked in Zim needs to be researched heavily.
The most amazing part about this thread is the level of naivety demonstrated by members here about hunting in Africa, especially when it comes to DG. Although it is often derided here, sometimes vehementley, my advice is to visit Accurate Reloading on occasion. That forum is much more Africa-centric and, as such, much more informative regarding the "do's and don't's" regarding the hunting regulations there.
Thanks huntsonora for blowing the lid off this guy. You may have saved someone a lot of money and heartache. It's amazing how easy it is to scam someone who doesn't know what they're getting into.
Damn.....I thought it was bad when he would not post any pics of the monster muledeer that he claims his clients are killing.
Huntsonora has saved alot of people alot of money about the mule deer and now this. Thanks.
Dink
Well, no dog in this fight, and no way I'm defending Ray, but here is the whole thread, from AR. I think its pretty stinky all the way around, and would definately steer clear. Seems other agents were scammed on this same "hunt" opportunity.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141maddog
Thanks for the link MD, puts things in persoective and gives you a lot more information.
Grand Vernier, I agree with you 100%. AR is a great source of information for African hunting, lots of folks post there includding the editors of African Hunting magazine, the PHs in charge of the various PH associations,(and the ones that among other things run the PH Exams in Zim that are the industry standard), the likes of Boddington and Selby, etc. I still like it here though
jorge
Damn.....I thought it was bad when he would not post any pics of the monster muledeer that he claims his clients are killing.
Huntsonora has saved alot of people alot of money about the mule deer and now this. Thanks.
Dink
You can say that again! I'm still shocked Atkinson has no answer.
Damn.....I thought it was bad when he would not post any pics of the monster muledeer that he claims his clients are killing.
Huntsonora has saved alot of people alot of money about the mule deer and now this. Thanks.
Dink
You can say that again! I'm still shocked Atkinson has no answer.
He posted up a response over on AR, now says that the hunt is in an area that is close to Gokwe. How convenient
He's gone from "willing to testify" for Dudley back to bashing anybody that implies he's doing anything wrong in about 12 hours. He has no clue what's going on here and that's too bad, all of this should have been researched before it was posted. Who cares, if this hunt goes bad he could always make it up to them by sending them on a mule deer hunt where 40" bucks are the norm
I have an unheard of two cull hunts for Buffalo and Elephant in Gokwe in Zim.
7 days for 2 hunters, 2 elephant, and 2 buffalo, $17,750. each all inclusive except for optional tips.
It is a problem cull hunt of sorts so only pictures and memories, no trophies home, but a chance to shoot buffalo and elephant at a really discounted price. Also a cameraman is available at $200 per day.
So I can go poach some elephants and buffalos for less than $20 grand? What a steal! Just what do you recommend for a tip on such an adventure?
I have a letter coming from the Governor of Zimbabwe who initiated the hunt with Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger. It is a meat hunt for tribal proverty. The hunt is in Shangwari North and South and not on anyones concession according to the governor and Dudley is just making noise in his words to Robbie. The hunt is sold once this all gets cleared up and I get the letter of confirmation..
Greenhorn and his butt buddy HuntSonora, neither of whom have ever been to Africa, and never will, are just up to their usual tactics. Saeed told HuntSonara to take his flamming towards me someplace else he was tired of listining to it..so they came over to contaminate 24 hr.
As to posting pictures to folks like them, never going to happen, and I don't give a [bleep] who likes it or who doesn't. I will deal with clients not internet monkies.
Furthermore I have all the emails and documentation from both blogs and emails sent to me and I will, at some point release them to the proper authorities or whoever I think can use them, so if any wrong doing is out there I will have furnished the proof and cleared myself of any wrong doing. Furthermore if wrong doing is being done then the Zim gov. must be involved! I will testify if asked, but the facts are I believe it to be a perfectly legitamate hunt and this is just more of internet bullshit by the same old scum bags, that have no proof, no knowledge and like most ladies sewing circles these wanabes like so spread melicious gossip as they are truly jealous of my 40 years of success in the booking business. They can kiss my ass.
I have a letter coming from the Governor of Zimbabwe who initiated the hunt with Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger. It is a meat hunt for tribal proverty. The hunt is in Shangwari North and South and not on anyones concession according to the governor and Dudley is just making noise in his words to Robbie. The hunt is sold once this all gets cleared up and I get the letter of confirmation..
Greenhorn and his butt buddy HuntSonora, neither of whom have ever been to Africa, and never will, are just up to their usual tactics. Saeed told HuntSonara to take his flamming towards me someplace else he was tired of listining to it..so they came over to contaminate 24 hr.
As to posting pictures to folks like them, never going to happen, and I don't give a [bleep] who likes it or who doesn't. I will deal with clients not internet monkies.
So its Shangwari North and South now and not Gokwe as you originally advertised? Cant use Gokwe as a cover so you come up with something else? This hunt offering is SHADY!
As for the pictures Ray, nobody buys that line of BS.
Drummond
Furthermore I have all the emails and documentation from both blogs and emails sent to me and I will, at some point release them to the proper authorities or whoever I think can use them, so if any wrong doing is out there I will have furnished the proof and cleared myself of any wrong doing. Furthermore if wrong doing is being done then the Zim gov. must be involved! I will testify if asked, but the facts are I believe it to be a perfectly legitamate hunt and this is just more of internet bullshit by the same old scum bags, that have no proof, no knowledge and like most ladies sewing circles these wanabes like so spread melicious gossip as they are truly jealous of my 40 years of success in the booking business. They can kiss my ass.
This is just so rich! Your not even sure its on the up and up and actually admit that your keeping a paper trail to clear your name and that your "willing to testify" against the people your going to continue to do business with? And you admit this on the actual hunt offering? You are an absolute idiot!
Drummond
My, my. I would be more than willing to purchase a hunt from such a well behaved and controlled gentleman as yourself. If you were a car salesman, and the price was right, I would still walk away so that someone such as yourself didnt recieve a penny of my hard earned money for no other reason than your attitude.
I don't know greenhorn or huntsonora, other than from there post here, but if someone questions one of the big muledeer or elk they have killed the very next post will have pics in it. I tend to respect people like that.
I have seen people try to make light of greenhorn twice. The next ten or so post have some of nicest muledeer and elk I have ever seen. I like those threads.....
Dink
I don't know them either, but I've grown weary and skeptical of the smear campaign they pursue here and on AR.
If you were a car salesman, and the price was right, I would still walk away so that someone such as yourself didnt recieve a penny of my hard earned money for no other reason than your attitude.
+1
I'm satisfied with the explanations from all sources on the subjectposted over on AR. jorge
I don't know them either, but I've grown weary and skeptical of the smear campaign they pursue here and on AR.
I fully realize that in some peoples eyes I am the bad guy for taking Ray to task on some of his hunts. Looking back, I could have gone about it in a different manner that wasnt quite as direct or abrasive. Let me say this, to anybody that I have offended by doing this, I apologize.
As for a "smear campaign", I disagree. While it may have been abrasive I can assure you that I would not go on a public forum and make a statement that I wasnt sure about. I wont rehash everything as its been discussed and disclosed ad nauseaum on this forum and others but just take a look at this advertisement, the hunt was advertised as hunting the Gokwe concession and now that there are questions about it its been mysteriously moved to Shangwari North and South. How convenient.
The fact that Ray will openly tell people that he is keeping a paper trail to cover his own tail it outrageous! Does he really think that breaking out a couple emails will clear his hunters of poaching charges in Zimbabwe? The fact that he is not 100% sure that this is legit and is still contemplating working with these guys and sending hunters there is simply amazing. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law Ray
Ignorantia juris non excusat Finally, Ray has stated repeatedly that I am "jealous of his success". His obvious case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder makes it impossible for him to realize that I do not look upon him as somebody I would ever aspire to be. He thinks that I look upon him as a person of stature within the industry and that I am trying to knock him off of his perch. Nothing could be further from the truth. While its not my right to judge any person, I look upon his business practices with nothing but disgust.
Drummond
Drummond, He's not worth that much typing. Funny stuff though thank you. Offering an opportunity to poach some elephants and buffalos, classic!
I find it humorous this is the same guy that once said I was into canned elk hunts on a 100000+ acre unfenced ranch for wild MT elk. All the while, he's peddling "adventures" for fenced game in the US and other countries, and now potentially the poaching of African wildlife.
For a good laugh, search on posts by Atkinson on the key word criteria of "I have hunted" "I have killed" "I have seen" and "I have taken".
I really like the sewing of bulls eyelids shut.. that's the best!
I don't know greenhorn or huntsonora, other than from there post here, but if someone questions one of the big muledeer or elk they have killed the very next post will have pics in it. I tend to respect people like that.
I have seen people try to make light of greenhorn twice. The next ten or so post have some of nicest muledeer and elk I have ever seen. I like those threads.....
Dink
You got that right Dink! Those two have posted so many pics of monster deer and elk, they have all the credibility they need as far as I'm concerned.
I fully realize that in some peoples eyes I am the bad guy for taking Ray to task on some of his hunts. Looking back, I could have gone about it in a different manner that wasnt quite as direct or abrasive. Let me say this, to anybody that I have offended by doing this, I apologize.This gets to the heart of the matter. It's obvious you've got a beef with Ray, and from what I can gather in the various posts where this schittstorm rears its ugly head, the start of it was over the size of some supposed mule deer. I don't know if you had a bad hunt Ray booked, or what the story is, but all parties concerned certainly haven't worked things out amongst themselves.
The attacks on Ray from your group are personal, and take the air of jilted lovers seeking revenge. That's what it appears, as a vendetta. Drummond, you might be a great guy, but I'd never know from these posts. They are hardly a public service announcement, if that is their intent. You might be an expert on mule deer, and if so, the one to chat with should I ever get the urge to seek an outfitter, but JHC you sure make it look as if it is your life's ambition to screw with Atkinson. You and Greenhorn expend an extraordinary amount of energy on it. Why doesn't everybody make this easier for us spectators. In the future, just cut and paste the following:
"Atkinson sux." - Huntsonora
"Eat me." - Ray
"You lie and so does your dog." -Greenhorn
"He learned from you, asswipe." -RayIf you will grant the 100's of us that tune in the simple courtesy of either using the stock quotes found above, or taking the pissing match offline, it will conserve your energy for more important duties, like hunting!
You forgot a couple..
"I spend money to shoot animals in a pen." - Hatari
"I will lick the moist spots on fat annoying Ray's body for a good deal on a rhino poaching safari." - Hatari
You forgot a couple..
"I spend money to shoot animals in a pen." - Hatari
"I will lick the moist spots on fat annoying Ray's body for a good deal on a rhino poaching safari." - Hatari
Hmm, not personal then.....you are trying to p!ss everyone off?
"I will lick the moist spots on fat annoying Ray's body
If your hero huntsonora wishes, I bet you would.
You can bullchit the fans and when it comes to safariclowns you can also bullchit the players.
Greenhorn, like your buddy, you might be a really good guy. We'd never know from your vitriolic posts.
you sure make it look as if it is your life's ambition to screw with Atkinson. You and Greenhorn expend an extraordinary amount of energy on it.
Laughter doesn't take an extraordinary amount of energy. The truth hurts, but it's sometimes pretty funny too.
elephant poaching.. anyone? anyone?
Looks like the concept of "tongue in cheek" is lost on some. This is one sad thread and if one were to take the time and read the link posted by maddog it puts a different perspective on things. In my opinion anyway. jorge
Hatari,
None of these guys have ever hunted with me, none of them even know me, its and internet vendetta, like the folks in Washington, they are like coyotes, what they don't eat they [bleep] on. They are licking wounds that are 5 or 10 years old, and its eating them up. How dumb is that?
I will be the one who determines if this hunt is legitamate or not, not these flunkys that have never been to Africa, don't know the politics or geographical boundries, and don't understand that Gokwe is a National Park run by the Government, and Gokwe has a number of concession and Dudley Rogers does not own them all...
If the Govnor is right and he is sending me a letter of permission to hunt as he is the instigator of the hunt with the OK from Magabe and he commissioned Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger to do it, then this hunt is legal..It is not a cull, it is a meat hunt, and that is a technicality in the business of African hunting I guess.
So before some dumb ass jumps up and sez. "oh your doing business with Magabe" I will clarify that everyone in the hunting business in Zimbabwe is doing business wiht Magabee otherwise they would not be there. He is the president like it or not, just like Obama, like it or not. The safari companies that opposed him are gone., the ones that made the best out of a bad situation are still there.
Saeed realized that Drummond is just an internet flamer who obviously hates me, and told him to take his vendetta elewhere, as he was tired of listening to it. Drummond has a couple of hired guns that back up all his posts, sometimes they even use different names..As far as flaming me, it has no effect other than I get tired and bored reading it. I have been in business about as long as anyone and I wouldn't have survived all these years if 1/10th of what they say was true..I intend to wind down and retire after I have completed all my 2011 hunts that are now booked. I will always book for my old cleintele on request as they have been loyal friends for years, but I am looking forward to that retirement and persueing my team roping habit.
I am off to shoot my Antelope tomorrow and then look forward to roping in Arizona during the months of Feb. and maybe into March.
Hatari,
None of these guys have ever hunted with me, none of them even know me, its and internet vendetta, like the folks in Washington, they are like coyotes, what they don't eat they [bleep] on. They are licking wounds that are 5 or 10 years old, and its eating them up. How dumb is that?
I will be the one who determines if this hunt is legitamate or not, not these flunkys that have never been to Africa, don't know the politics or geographical boundries, and don't understand that Gokwe is a National Park run by the Government, and Gokwe has a number of concession and Dudley Rogers does not own them all...
If the Govnor is right and he is sending me a letter of permission to hunt as he is the instigator of the hunt with the OK from Magabe and he commissioned Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger to do it, then this hunt is legal..It is not a cull, it is a meat hunt, and that is a technicality in the business of African hunting I guess.
So before some dumb ass jumps up and sez. "oh your doing business with Magabe" I will clarify that everyone in the hunting business in Zimbabwe is doing business wiht Magabee otherwise they would not be there. He is the president like it or not, just like Obama, like it or not. The safari companies that opposed him are gone., the ones that made the best out of a bad situation are still there.
Saeed realized that Drummond is just an internet flamer who obviously hates me, and told him to take his vendetta elewhere, as he was tired of listening to it. Drummond has a couple of hired guns that back up all his posts, sometimes they even use different names..As far as flaming me, it has no effect other than I get tired and bored reading it. I have been in business about as long as anyone and I wouldn't have survived all these years if 1/10th of what they say was true..I intend to wind down and retire after I have completed all my 2011 hunts that are now booked. I will always book for my old cleintele on request as they have been loyal friends for years, but I am looking forward to that retirement and persueing my team roping habit.
I am off to shoot my Antelope tomorrow and then look forward to roping in Arizona during the months of Feb. and maybe into March.
Interesting
Ray, I can only shake my head at your last post. There is so much that is wrong with it I am having trouble believing that you even posted it
HS, kinda like what Saeed said on AR, why don't you take it somewhere else.......
Greenhorn, why do you have to be such a d**k about everything.....
maddog
You can bullchit the fans and when it comes to safariclowns you can also bullchit the players.
I have to tell you, azzhole, I'm tired of anyone who hunts Africa being your "safariclown". You know schidt about Africa.
If you were some kind of authority and had years of experience there, you might make some sense. You are just an ignorant puke who can't think beyond N America. The only right way seems to be your way.
Have you ever had personal dealings with Ray? No... Did he ever send you on a bogus hunt? No... Have you ever had to deal with African politics? No...
I'm not passing judgement regarding this hunt offering, but I do know how Africa works, and it isn't dealing with your local Dudley Doright fish and game department.
Man...you are an obsessive-compulsive regarding your dislike for anything African and anyone who loves that continent. ...you're back on ignore... for a great many here, by the way.
You put me on ignore? That's flattering and it rocks! You seem to know what I like - not what I dislike.
And for the love of God, please stop sending me personal messages that say you want to kill me, then you love me, then you want to kill me.. Your schizobipolarism is off the charts.
HS, kinda like what Saeed said on AR, why don't you take it somewhere else.......
Because if I did somebody might actually book this hunt and end up in a world of hurt.
Ray says
I will be the one who determines if this hunt is legitamate or not, not these flunkys that have never been to Africa, don't know the politics or geographical boundries, and don't understand that Gokwe is a National Park run by the Government, and Gokwe has a number of concession and Dudley Rogers does not own them all...
If the Govnor is right and he is sending me a letter of permission to hunt as he is the instigator of the hunt with the OK from Magabe and he commissioned Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger to do it, then this hunt is legal..It is not a cull, it is a meat hunt, and that is a technicality in the business of African hunting I guess.
So before some dumb ass jumps up and sez. "oh your doing business with Magabe" I will clarify that everyone in the hunting business in Zimbabwe is doing business wiht Magabee otherwise they would not be there. He is the president like it or not, just like Obama, like it or not. The safari companies that opposed him are gone., the ones that made the best out of a bad situation are still there.
There is so much here so I'll just deal with the obvious. Aside from the fact that this is an illegal hunt offering there are sanctions against Mugabe in Zimbabwe and per section 1 of Executive Order 13288 it states that you cannot do business in Zimbabwe
with the persons listed in the Annex to this order; and any person determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State, to be owned or controlled by, or acting or purporting to act directly or indirectly for or on behalf of, any of the persons listed in the Annex to this orderhttp://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/legal/eo/13288.pdfAnd this idiot(Ray) not only openly admits that he isnt afraid of doing business with Mugabe but is willing to send anybody thats not educated enough on the matter across the drink to hunt with them.
Ray claims that "I'm a flunky that doesnt know the politics of Africa" yet he doesnt even understand the laws of his own country. Its mind boggling to me to see people defend the guy and ask me to take this type of information elsewhere.
Since Ray obviously doesnt know about the sanctions I'm sure he is unaware of the penalties for doing business with Mugabe or an associate of Mugabe. Hows a $250,000 fine per person and up to 10 years in a federal penetentiary sound to you?
Ray cannot just admit this this is a hunt offering that he needs to pull from the message boards, his mental condition simply will not allow him to do this. There is ZERO shame in coming on, stating that he isnt willing to risk it and pull it, instead he fights tooth and nail and even admits that he is more than willing to break federal laws to do it. Its astonishing!
IMO Ray needs to retire yesterday, today would not be soon enough. Within the industry he is looked upon as a joke. The problem is that on the internet you can be whoever you want to be and some of you take it, hook, line and sinker. Rays fantasy persona that he has created is interesting and should be looked upon like a Louis L'Amour novel, some of the places are real but the characters and stories are not.
Drummond
Drummond,
Who is it exactly, that you guide for?
Here's a cut and paste, from a PM sent to me that was forwarded to somebody else from somebody else. Funny stuff..
I had no idea Ray was as experienced as he is. I believe I owe Ray an apology. I had no idea he had so much experience. I did a search of his old posts and came up with a world of info on him.
He really should write a book and serve as a consultant for those less experienced (like Craig Boddington, who is the only person I know of that approaches Ray's experience.)
After all Ray has faced Buffalo charges! (he can't remember how many, so cut him some slack. In some cases he even get's confused as to whose Buffalo it really is!)
Ray on Buffalo Charges:
-------------------
I killed a clients buffalo and the momentum of his charge was such that his chin was on top of my foot for all practical purposes and my foot was burried in dirt....I have had 3 for sure and a 4th that was iffy, but none of them were up real close and personal but the one mentioned as most were shot and killed as the charge was, shall we say stopped early, in its development stage..
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I have stood the Buffalo charge more than several times, I know what he looks like and it ain't pretty, and I never have been satisfied with the caliber I had on hand at the time and they were 404s, 416s, and 505s..Thats my opinnion.
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I have a 38" bull on my wall ... I mounted him because he died at my feet and covered my shoes with mud when he went down..He is MY trophy....
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Other things people do not realize when criticizing Ray is that he has pretty much been there and done that (on a border patrol agent's salary)
Just look, all you nay sayers, what Ray has done in his life (on a border patrol agent's salary). You will be sorry you ever said anything negative about him. This guy has hunted everywhere! He has forgotten more than I will ever know about hunting.
Where Ray has hunted
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(on Ruhiji) I have not hunted those areas in several years but I have hunted next to them in the last few years....both are very good concession, the Kigosi is just below the Mayowashi and is swampy, and has some terrific bulls on the islands...
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I have hunted Mahenge several times, but I don't recall if it was North or South,
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The Moyowosi ...I have hunted it many times and its a great experience as is the nearby Kigosi which is a series of islands to be boated to daily and hunted
(Ray sometimes get's confused about where he has been ...)
I have hunted the Selous a couple of times
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...I have hunted so many [Selous] blocks it has become a blur..I have never hunted in a bad block in the Selous.
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I have hunted all the above concessions and found them all to be excellent (LU2, R2, K1, K2, K4, LU5, R2)
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I have hunted R1 about 11 years ago It is hilly and flat where I was.
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I have hunted the Mayowashi many times and its always been one of my favorite areas....
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I have hunted the 4 cornors of the earth
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I have hunted Africa with the 416 Rem since its birth
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I have hunted the outback of Austrailia
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I have hunted the So. Texas brush about as much as anyone
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...I have hunted their many times... (RSA)
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....I have hunted about everywhere in Tanzania and Zimbabwe.
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I have hunted about everywhere there is to hunt in Africa and those places I have not hunted I have visited at one time or another most likly...
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I have hunted with and know some of the great PHs of all time, it was an honor to just listen...
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I have hunted about every nook and cranny in Africa for all species...
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You will all be embarressed when Ray comes out with his book detailing all his adventures. As far as I know, he is the only person who has hunted this much who has not written a book. (But, don't forget his 18,600 posts on AR! That should count for something!)
Now, I will tell you guys, if you doubt his experience, consider that if Ray has not done it, he has seen it!
What Ray has seen
I have seen it done more than several times.. [elephant brained with a 375]
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I saw a 505 wack an elephant in the head front on and it didn't phase that old boy...
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I have seen over 50 Buffalo and know of a 100 being shot with Noslers in our camps alone
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[458 Lott] I have seen several big bulls shot with that round with a 500 gr. solid at 2350 FPS with 84 grs. of IMR-4320
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I have seen Elephant shot and killed with a 7x57 ...I have used it on Buffalo sucessfully.
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As to culling with the .308, there is a hell of a lot of difference in a full auto burst of 308s in the head of an elephant than one shot from a bolt gun.. I have witness these culls and if shot no. 1 doesn't drop an elephant, and many many times it will not the a full auto burst will..that ain't no fair comparison, that full aut burst is a devastating killer akin to a 900 N. E.
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I conseder the 9.3x62 an nice minimum but acceptable DG rifle..I have shot a number of Buffalo with it and have seen a couple of elephant taken with it...
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I have seen two buff take 9 shots from two 470's and another took 13 hits from a 500, 470 and 577 before expiring....
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I have seen Lion and Eland shot with the 30-06 and 300 H&H
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I know a few that use the 460 Wby ..... I have witnessed a number of Buff, a couple of elephant and one lion killed with it by clients
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Now, if he hasn't seen it, he has killed it with any manner of rifle known to mankind. I had no idea that so many guns were popular to shoot Buffalo with! I thought that people only used adequate calibers, I stand corrected! Apparently, people will use any caliber of gun to take on a Buffalo.
What Ray has killed and with what caliber
I have killed a few Buffalo with a borrowed 308 and military ball ammo...
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I have killed a hell of lot of Buffalo with solids without any problems and I have seen a lot of Buffalo killed with solids...
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The best 223, 222 or 22-250 deer bullet is hands down the 60 gr. Hornady H.P. or S.P....I have killed a world of Blesbok, Springbok, Mule deer and antelope with them
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Saeed,
I'm going to have to correct the situation of you having killed more Buffalo than anyone on this board, by the time I get back in October, even if I have to stay a couple of extra weeks and cull...
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I killed a few buff with a military 8x57 with german ww2 ball ammo, and every third or fouth one misfired...
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..I have killed Cape Buffalo with a milsurp 8mm Mauser with old ammo that fired every 3rd round
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Just take the .338, it will do anything the 375 or the 300 will do...I have all three and the .338 is usually the one I pick short of buffalo and I have killed a few buffalo with it.
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I have killed several Cape Buff with a .338 Win....
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9.3x62 ...I have neatly killed Cape Buffalo with that load and with the 286 gr. Nosler at 2520 FPS
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I have always shot the 450-400 and probably killed 30 or 40, maybe more buffalo with it..I have shot a dozen or two with my .470 Searcy...
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in fact I have killed nemourous Buffalo with the 450-400s in both 3 and 3-1/4" length with perfect satisfaction...
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I have shot the 505 a lot and I have hunted with it and killed Buffalo with it and the 500 Jefferys...
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I have culled Springbuck and Blesbok with the 22-250 and 6x45 and got instant kills...I did have a few rather sloppy kills that fortunately did not get away, but that was out of hundreds of animals shot...
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I have killed a number of Eland with the 260 partition, but I sure prefer the 300 gr. Nosler for them...
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I have shot about everything in Africa up to and encluding Buffalo with the 06 and I have seen the 300 H&H used on Buffalo and they both worked great on everything, but both killed the buffalo a little slow IMO.
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"In a pinch", a 308 will work for buffalo, I have used it and several other of its class including 8x57 with military ball ammo, and my 300 H&H has killed one buff for me and several for a friend of mine...
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the 338 Win is my all time baby ... I have killed Cape Buffalo with it on ocassions and it does'em up neat and tidy.
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I really like the 338 Win. I have killed everything on earth except elephant with it..and I would not hesitate to do that ....
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BUT I have also killed Buffalo with a 7x57, 8x57 ... a 308 and a 30-06, and both 9.3s,
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I have killed as many buffalo as any American born citizen that I know....I have hunted about everywhere in Tanzania and Zimbabwe.
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I have made a one gun safari several times with a 375 and a 416 Rem.
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But my favorite Buffalo bullet is the new Northfork cup point..I have now shot about a dozen buffalo in the last two years with the Northfork ..I have used them in 375, 416, 404 and 470 and the cup point is the do it all bullet, expands a just right and penetrates like a solid, and knocks those old boys down hard..
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I have shot buffalo at beyond 250 yards on rare ocassions
I have also shot Buffalo at two feet off my barrel in high grass
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Woodleigh....Round nose bonded core, been around forever and they surly do work, I have been using Woodleighs foe nearly 30 years I think....I killed a 375 B&C elk with a 300 gr. Woodleigh RN in my 338 this year.
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Anyone who thinks they will not use Ray for their next hunt should reconsider .... after all, he has to shoot the biggest animals of any booking agent I have ever heard of!
Ray on setting expectations:
I have a 10 day elephant, Croc, Hippo hunt in the Gache Gache area of Zimbabwe...elephants will go from 45 to 75 lbs (Isn't that pretty big?)
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[The Selous] It has a huge, by comparison to anywhere else, Buffalo population and everyone kills a good bull...It has some real quality big bulls and I have always seen or killed big bulls in the Selous, in fact the best I have killed was in the Selous..(referring to his 40"Buffalo killed with Pierre a few years ago)
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and the biggest bull I ever shot there was ... over 50 inches ... another a client shot one that had drop to the ground almost, and a 36 inch spread and he was beatiful...My best bull is displayed on my web page and he only has a hair under 40 inches. (wait, isnt 50" bigger than 39")
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I have seen a number of 42 to 46 inch Buffalo in the Selous over the years and even killed a few of them
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....your expectations are reasonable and I suspect you will be able to get a nice 42 to 43 inch bull if you give yourself enough time, [in the Selous]...I have always seen plus 40 inch bulls in the selous, sometimes I didn't get them because they didn't get that big being stupid...All of these concession produce a number of 40 inch and better bulls every year,
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I have some trophy Mule Deer and we kill two or three each year in the 208 to 235 B&C class, spreads of 40 plus inches, which is pretty good because we only take about 7 hunters.... (wouldn't that be about 30-40% on 208 or better deer? I should have booked this hunt with him!)
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I have had a cancellation on my Texas Mule Deer Trophy hunts...This hunt is on a 20,000 acre low fenced ranch that backs up to about 100,000 acres of Gov. land..
These may be the best trophy deer in the world today, they only allow you to shoot the big ones, the largest shot so far was a 46" spread, 30 inch beam and 6 inch base, Texas no. 1...A number of 170 to 180 were shot and several each year over 200..The adjoining ranch I have booked up into 2008 shot several in the 200 to 234 B&C class...This is one heck of a trophy mule deer country and about half what the guys in Mexico are getting...
Cost: $2000. for 4 days (Dec.4 through 7) fully guided, $2000.00 for kill...Also have some openings for 2006..
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we have some great Bear Hunts at $9,500.00 and everyone gets a bear in a day or two...We have ventured elsewhere in the country with good results and last year they killed a Moose in the 80" spread catagory, now thats BIG and some of the elk will scare you to death.....
And, Just for fun ....other statements about the most interesting life of Walter Mitty, um, I mean Ray Atkinson
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The next elephant I kill will have no less than 100 lbs of Ivory or I will never shoot another one, so that would be my holy grail...unless someone found me an Ethopian Sable...
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I have shot a lot of stuff from the truck, I have jumped out of the truck and shot from a nearby tree, I have shot them at night, and I have shot them running while we chased them in a truck...I have also walked the track behind the elephant for 20 miles a day, day after day, climbed the highest slopes for various sheep, climbed some damn rough country in Idaho, Alaska, canada and other parts of the world, been on some grueling hunts, and some cakewalks...and I made all the choices myself
You can't make stuff up that's any funnier.. search tool at AR:
I leased the 75,000 ac. Rosillas Mt. Ranch in the Big Bend of Texas, 90 miles So. of Marathon, Texas in the 70s and it had wild longhorn cattle on it that had Cap Yates brand on them so most of the old branded cows had to be at least 20 years old. I was told I could shoot them, have them hunted or do whatever I wanted to with them as they could not be gathered..
Over the next 120 days me and 4 Mexican cowboys roped them, sewed their eyelids near shut and lead them out one at a time to my pens. I sold them to JD Bloodworth in Colorado..I shot one steer but only because he had 7 ropes on him, and he presented himself at just the right time, he had a fantastic set of horns so I had him butchered and his head mounted. The meat was not good at all..
you guys crack me up! Who has the time to research someone like that?
You put me on ignore? That's flattering and it rocks! You seem to know what I like - not what I dislike.
And for the love of God, please stop sending me personal messages that say you want to kill me, then you love me, then you want to kill me.. Your schizobipolarism is off the charts.
Well congratulations mouth....you are now on my ignore list.
Now kindly f_ck off and take your vitriol elsewhere.....your word is no good here.
You put me on ignore? That's flattering and it rocks! You seem to know what I like - not what I dislike.
And for the love of God, please stop sending me personal messages that say you want to kill me, then you love me, then you want to kill me.. Your schizobipolarism is off the charts.
Got the wrong guy there, gayhorn.
I don't want to snuff anyone here. I think you've been getting too many private messages for you to keep track of. I did send one, but it had no threats. You're a liar, as well as an azzhole.
You put me on ignore? That's flattering and it rocks! You seem to know what I like - not what I dislike.
And for the love of God, please stop sending me personal messages that say you want to kill me, then you love me, then you want to kill me.. Your schizobipolarism is off the charts.
Got the wrong guy there, gayhorn.
I don't want to snuff anyone here. I think you've been getting too many private messages for you to keep track of. I did send one, but it had no threats.
You're a liar, as well as an azzhole. Finally, something we can all agree on.
I am just glad that the Ray Atkinson supporters have something other than whats really important to focus on
Also, just want to point out that I called this over on AR 2 years ago when Ray was advertising an illegal NM mule deer hunt. If you want to see what was advertised just do a search but here was me being clairvoyant
Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
In all seriousness, I think AR needs to take a look at his practices and make a decision on whether or not he should be allowed to advertise here, he just advertised a hunt and was promoting illegal practices. Accident or not the members of AR deserve better from anybody promoting these hunts here. Anybody that has spent time hunting the west knows that you cannot hunt both seasons in NM!
If he doesnt know the rules right here in the USA how could anybody trust what he says about hunting in a 3rd world country? Its downright scary
Drummond
Drummond
Two things I have noticed by following AR and here:
1. Ray's prices seem to be a couple grand more than what other booking agents charge for 'discounted' hunts. I've seen that several times. Can't blame the guy though, he's trying to make a buck like everyone else. Just funny to see multiple agents selling the same hunt only Ray's is higher.
2. Drummond posts pictures of his hunts. Proofs in the pudding so to speak. Never known Drummond to hunt any fenced areas. I know that he hunts Colorado and Mexico quite a bit and he's led his hunters to some absolute monster muleys and elk.
I'd hunt with Drummond any day.
Agreed Bluefin!
Ray could have put this fire out very quickly a coupla years ago by just posting a few pics. He didn't do that so I have to think there was a reason why a man would continue to have his name dragged through the mud when he could've avoided it.
Hatari,
None of these guys have ever hunted with me, none of them even know me, its and internet vendetta, like the folks in Washington, they are like coyotes, what they don't eat they [bleep] on. They are licking wounds that are 5 or 10 years old, and its eating them up. How dumb is that?
I will be the one who determines if this hunt is legitamate or not, not these flunkys that have never been to Africa, don't know the politics or geographical boundries, and don't understand that Gokwe is a National Park run by the Government, and Gokwe has a number of concession and Dudley Rogers does not own them all...
If the Govnor is right and he is sending me a letter of permission to hunt as he is the instigator of the hunt with the OK from Magabe and he commissioned Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger to do it, then this hunt is legal..It is not a cull, it is a meat hunt, and that is a technicality in the business of African hunting I guess.
So before some dumb ass jumps up and sez. "oh your doing business with Magabe" I will clarify that everyone in the hunting business in Zimbabwe is doing business wiht Magabee otherwise they would not be there. He is the president like it or not, just like Obama, like it or not. The safari companies that opposed him are gone., the ones that made the best out of a bad situation are still there.
Saeed realized that Drummond is just an internet flamer who obviously hates me, and told him to take his vendetta elewhere, as he was tired of listening to it. Drummond has a couple of hired guns that back up all his posts, sometimes they even use different names..As far as flaming me, it has no effect other than I get tired and bored reading it. I have been in business about as long as anyone and I wouldn't have survived all these years if 1/10th of what they say was true..I intend to wind down and retire after I have completed all my 2011 hunts that are now booked. I will always book for my old cleintele on request as they have been loyal friends for years, but I am looking forward to that retirement and persueing my team roping habit.
I am off to shoot my Antelope tomorrow and then look forward to roping in Arizona during the months of Feb. and maybe into March.
The information in the post above differs a little bit from what is posted on AR, but here is Martin Pieters' response on AR:
Ray, to answer some of your questions:
As a committee member of ZPHGA, I am still waiting to be contacted by you requesting information on this offer.
Dudley does in fact have Gokwe North and South, your assumption that he does not is incorrect.
There is no Gokwe National Park, it does not exist.
Dudley did not sell his soul to get Gokwe, after running it professionally for 20 years, he has managed to retain it, which in my books means that he has been honest and paid his fees on time, followed his Campfire agreement and operated legally above the radar.
Yes, Robbie Kruger is an SA guy, he may use Peter Uys, who is NOT A LICENCED PH in Zimbabwe, he resides on a seized piece of land in the Gwayi known as Karna East!
Meat hunts for the tribal people as you put it do not occur, in fact meat from elephant taken in ' tribal ' concessions ( commonly called Campfire areas ) is distributed to the locals, this is how it works. If elephant are shot in ' other ' areas, there are no villagers and it is possibly only for financial gain.
The wildlife in Zimbabwe is controlled by National Parks, all of it, without a quota or hunting permit stamped and approved by national parks, the hunt is illegal.
Most of the ' good guys' are in Tanzania, I would look again!
I have contacted SOAZ and the Director of Parks and will have an answer later today.
[email protected]
www.martinpieterssafaris.com
Interesting reading anyway.
What I don't actually get.... folks would take off, pay flights, and pay money to shoot something they get no meat, no hide, no antlers/horns/tusks.... And talking of basically 20K plus the flight... wow.
Just me though I guess.
Interesting reading anyway.
What I don't actually get.... folks would take off, pay flights, and pay money to shoot something they get no meat, no hide, no antlers/horns/tusks.... And talking of basically 20K plus the flight... wow.
Just me though I guess.
You could stand just a few yards from certain death about ready to prove to yourself that you have what it takes to take the actions necessary to prove to yourself that you are what you believe you are.
Always a fun thought over a morning cup of coffee..
Even better than the 26 inch pronghorn he once saw.. is in the quote from above and the saga continues on the link originally provided by maddog above.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141As a committee member of ZPHGA, I am still waiting to be contacted by you requesting information on this offer. Dudley does in fact have Gokwe North and South, your assumption that he does not is incorrect. There is no Gokwe National Park, it does not exist.
This is some funny shixt - Ray is a blowhard - anyone that can't see that might just have their eyelids sewed shut too.
To those that ask me to clear the air, I have not posted because its all bullshit by those that have no clue, just internet jockies..I will not apease them with pictures and answers because it would do no good..I do that for my clients that intend to hunt.
I ask them, in all their knowledge to answer the simple questions that I have.
1. Is this hunt illegal
2. Has anyone been prosecuted for doing this.
3. Has any Safari company done this now or in the past, do they allow thier clients to do this when requested by the Magabe Governors.
As opposed to name calling and interntet bullshit, answer the questions and back them up with fact.
Perhaps the big lie is these hunts are not illegal, and it may be a scam to present them as so..I am trying to find out these things..
I have no further intention of addressing this small group of misfits in this situation, I am doing it for the benefit of my clientele and those who might be effected by it...They can rattle to each other, thats what they do best.
My biggest chore in getting answers from the powers that be is they don't want to address anyhthing that happens on these blogs, they just laugh and tell me to forget it, it has no credibility. Thats disturbing as many here are intelligent folks that just like to hunt.
If Zimbabwe is such a $hithole, why doesn't the U.S. State Department make it off-limits to Americans? Let the rest of the world's hunters go there, but keep American $$ out of the hands of Roger Mugabe et al.
If I was in a position to do so, I would impose an immediately embargo toward Zimbabwe, along with cutting off aid to any/all non-democratically elected countries and countries that don't honor they're cooperation agreements with the U.S., like Pakistan, after 90 days. Without U.S. aid, millions of poor people would likely starve, but a significant subset of that universe already hates the U.S., for a variety of reasons, both real and immagined, so what difference would it make to our interests?
Jeff
To those that ask me to clear the air, I have not posted because its all bullshit by those that have no clue, just internet jockies..I will not apease them with pictures and answers because it would do no good..I do that for my clients that intend to hunt.
I ask them, in all their knowledge to answer the simple questions that I have.
1. Is this hunt illegal
2. Has anyone been prosecuted for doing this.
3. Has any Safari company done this now or in the past, do they allow thier clients to do this when requested by the Magabe Governors.
As opposed to name calling and interntet bullshit, answer the questions and back them up with fact.
Perhaps the big lie is these hunts are not illegal, and it may be a scam to present them as so..I am trying to find out these things..
I have no further intention of addressing this small group of misfits in this situation, I am doing it for the benefit of my clientele and those who might be effected by it...They can rattle to each other, thats what they do best.
My biggest chore in getting answers from the powers that be is they don't want to address anyhthing that happens on these blogs, they just laugh and tell me to forget it, it has no credibility. Thats disturbing as many here are intelligent folks that just like to hunt.
Really Ray? Effing really?
If Zimbabwe is such a $hithole, why doesn't the U.S. State Department make it off-limits to Americans? Let the rest of the world's hunters go there, but keep American $$ out of the hands of Roger Mugabe et al.
If I was in a position to do so, I would impose an immediately embargo toward Zimbabwe, along with cutting off aid to any/all non-democratically elected countries and countries that don't honor they're cooperation agreements with the U.S., like Pakistan, after 90 days. Without U.S. aid, millions of poor people would likely starve, but a significant subset of that universe already hates the U.S., for a variety of reasons, both real and immagined, so what difference would it make to our interests?
Jeff
260 if you do that, you would be signing the death warrants for tens of thusands of animals that would be killed by poachers as they would lose their value as trophies, not to mention the approximately five thousand whites most who've been there as long as Americans have been here in the US that depend on the hunting idustry. The best way to approach this is to ONLY hunt with reputable outfitters that are not on the US sacntions list and are doing wonders with little income to preserve the wildlife there. Just some food for thought for you. jorge
Here is a link to an electronic copy of
Endangered Species Desk Book Seems pretty comprehensive and covers the Lacey Act, some prosecutions and results. Though I haven't read the entire document, Page 63 might shed a bit of light.
one hunter 7 days (maybe 14 days not sure)and you get 4 elephant and 4 buffalo all inclusive for $35,500.00
I am sending an email as to can a hunter shoot any size elephant or buffalo.
Where else can you have somebody say "I have a hunt for $35,000 (
). I'm not really sure where it is, how long it is, what you can shoot, why you're shooting it, what's included, anything else about the whole deal, or if it's even legal, and I'm not going to explain any of that to you internet bullies. Just send me a check, consider yourself lucky enough to be in my priviledged inner circle of "serious clientele", cross your fingers, and hope you get to return home afterwards (and if you're lucky, with a picture of the unknown animal in an unknown location). I'll try to provide full details after the fact, after the governor gets back to me. Don't worry though, cause I'm keeping an email trail, that is guaranteed to stand up in an African court."
Holy f'ing crap!!!
thier clients to do this when requested by the Magabe Governors.
...interntet bullshit,
... and it may be a scam to present them as so..I am trying to find out these things..
...thats
... don't want to address anyhthing
couple random thoughts:
1) Writing "it may be a scam" in the opening line of a proposed business transaction tends to turn off potential buyers.
2) Spelling the names of government officials correctly goes a long way towards establishing credibility on a subject involving said govt. officials. ( It' M
Ugabe, not Magabe - you've gotten that wrong, like, 6 times on this thread alone.)
3) There's an automatic spell-check in (whatever browser you're using).
Use it. You're not posting as some drunk on Saturday night railing against da man - you're supposed to be a businessman who's trying to get someone to give you $35 grand on faith .)
Interesting reading anyway.
What I don't actually get.... folks would take off, pay flights, and pay money to shoot something they get no meat, no hide, no antlers/horns/tusks.... And talking of basically 20K plus the flight... wow.
Just me though I guess.
You could stand just a few yards from certain death about ready to prove to yourself that you have what it takes to take the actions necessary to prove to yourself that you are what you believe you are.
Always a fun thought over a morning cup of coffee..
No need to go to Africa for that...I can find action like that not 5 minutes from my front door...I gotta agree with Rost...it is kinda interesting reading...
If I were a betting man, there are four ways this will go.
1. He will come back with more bluster, BS and blaming others.
2. He will continue to try to shift to "getting to the bottom of this" and reporting violators nonsense.
3. He will come back and say he was totally wrong for posting this at all without having all the info & docs locked up tight beforehand and apologize to all those who questioned the legitimacy/legality of his offer.
4. He will ignore the post completely maybe stop posting at all on this site - for awhile anyway.
Any takers?
Maybe this should be done as a poll. Then he could get a visual graphic of how others see him and his offers here.
Interesting reading anyway.
What I don't actually get.... folks would take off, pay flights, and pay money to shoot something they get no meat, no hide, no antlers/horns/tusks.... And talking of basically 20K plus the flight... wow.
Just me though I guess.
You could stand just a few yards from certain death about ready to prove to yourself that you have what it takes to take the actions necessary to prove to yourself that you are what you believe you are.
Always a fun thought over a morning cup of coffee..
Yep, and what do I get out of that? Photos maybe? I like horns, meat, something to show generally speaking. Way to far, too much money for nothing to show.
I don't mean the guy any ill will. If you go back over a lot of his posts over the years he offers his views/opines on a lot of stuff. Makes a lot of claims that seem possible to a bit....fanciful.... to way out there. He probably has done a lot of "stuff" in his life - just hard to tell fact from....embellishment.
Since it's hard to tell how much of it is BS vs reality (a simple photo posted here, sent to somebody to post here or posted on his web site) a thinking person has to discount the reliably, voracity and credibility of everything he posts. The saddest thing is he expects people who only "know" him from his postings, to put down hard earned $$$ and possibly life and limb based solely on his word with only his previous posting history here.
Wish him well but....as in all things "caveat emptor".
1. He will come back with more bluster, BS and blaming others.
2. He will continue to try to shift to "getting to the bottom of this" and reporting violators nonsense.
3. He will come back and say he was totally wrong for posting this at all without having all the info & docs locked up tight beforehand and apologize to all those who questioned the legitimacy/legality of his offer.
4. He will ignore the post completely maybe stop posting at all on this site - for awhile anyway.
Any takers?
#1 followed by (or possibly combined with) #2.
#4, modified a bit. He might ignore this post, but he won't quit posting. He'll always have some "one of a kind, unique, once in a lifetime, never before available, you're lucky I'm your friend and allowing you the opportunity, you can only do this if you're a real man", offer.
#3 would have to be the long shot here.
Yup, 1, 2 and 4. No chance of 3. We have seen this all before.
If Zimbabwe is such a $hithole, why doesn't the U.S. State Department make it off-limits to Americans? Let the rest of the world's hunters go there, but keep American $$ out of the hands of Roger Mugabe et al.
If I was in a position to do so, I would impose an immediately embargo toward Zimbabwe, along with cutting off aid to any/all non-democratically elected countries and countries that don't honor they're cooperation agreements with the U.S., like Pakistan, after 90 days. Without U.S. aid, millions of poor people would likely starve, but a significant subset of that universe already hates the U.S., for a variety of reasons, both real and immagined, so what difference would it make to our interests?
Jeff
260 if you do that, you would be signing the death warrants for tens of thusands of animals that would be killed by poachers as they would lose their value as trophies, not to mention the approximately five thousand whites most who've been there as long as Americans have been here in the US that depend on the hunting idustry. The best way to approach this is to ONLY hunt with reputable outfitters that are not on the US sacntions list and are doing wonders with little income to preserve the wildlife there. Just some food for thought for you. jorge
This is exactly right, jorge!
Hunting is what saved wildlife in Africa, and if it ceases in Zimbabwe because of any embargo...or any other reason, the critters pay the price...and intimately disappear.
Safaris are expensive, and meat can't be brought back. For those who need to bring back more than the experience, it isn't for them.
I've known Ray for eleven years now. He sent me on safaris to SA, Zim, and Tanz. The SA safari was what is to be expected in that country, but I had a wonderful time hunting with a PH friend there.
Zimbabwe and Tanzania exceeded my wildest dreams. Ray stepped to the plate and saved a safari that was going sideways due to politics and made things more than right for me. The hunts were good values, moderately priced. I am not wealthy by any stretch, and price was a big factor for me. The more I learned about Africa, the more I realized just what it had cost Ray out of his pocket to make things right...better than right.
All I can say is, if you don't like the idea of hunting Africa, don't waste your time or money. Hunt where and what you prefer, and how you prefer. Unless you've hunted the still wild places in Africa you won't realize the extent of the experience.
I sincerely hope everyone has a chance or two to live out whatever your dreams are. Good hunting.
Luv2:
Sounds like you have had positive experiences with Ray to date. Cool and good on both of you.
In an attempt to bring some perspective to the thread and your past experience with him and considering what he has posted regarding this particular hunt with all the current "unknowns" and incomplete info posted and all the WAGs going on would you take it as of right now - risking your funds and possible health and well being?
And as an American I should care about anything in Zimbabwe, or Africa for that matter, because why?
Or, extend the conversation, why would it matter to me, as a U.S. citizen, if the people of Zimbabwe killed and ate THEIR wild game? As long as the protein isn't wasted. People all over the world still practice inefficient slash/burn cultivation that destroys trees with more value than the crops that replace them and only the rainforest preservation groups seem to care. Wasting trophy grade animals or commercial grade timber, isn't it equally wasteful?
It is bad luck for the white Rhodesians/Zimbabweans to have been born at a time when the black majority took control of the government and have pretty much destroyed the country, but, again, as a U.S. citizen, why would that matter to me?
Jeff
PS: I don't know about your ancestors, but some of mine have been in the U.S. prior to the U.S. Revolutionary War, well before any people of European descent have lived in Southern Rhodesia/Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.
I suppose if you have no interest that wild species get wiped out because of rampant poaching and are gone forever, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Personally I'd like to see it preserved everywhere. And the protein would be wasted when the elephant rhino, leopards etc are killed just for their ivory, horns and capes, but again it appears that does not matter to you as well. And just to keep facts straight, the first European settlers started colonizing Africa in the late 1500s and they like us, displaced (aka "pacification by force"the native populations to further their own hegemony. Don't get me wrong, I a believer in Social Darwinism so I have no issues with that, but I do take the extermination of say the American Bison as unfortunate; as an American...
1. There weren't any Europeans colonizing what is now known as Zimbabwe until the 1800s, via Cecil Rhodes' British South African Company, so today's Zimbabweans of European descent couldn't have had ancestors there since the 1500s.
2. I'm not missing passenger pigeons, at least that I know of, and I think that bison is over-rated and would be better if it was grain-fed in a feedlot before being killed and cooked. I like marbled meat.
3. Starving people will often "eat the seeds" and the Zimbabwean people are starving today because they, as a group, didn't have the skills/education necessary to run their country as well as it had been run by the Ian Smith white minority government. Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it comes with a cost and in Zimbabwe, part of that cost is that the people were free to set the stage for mass starvation when they threw the white farmers off their land. A lose/lose situation, but a situation that was predictable.
4. I think that AIDS is the greatest hope for African wildlife. Fewer people = fewer mouths to feed.
Jeff
1652, Jan van Riebeeck, under orders from the Dutch East India Company, established the first colony at Table Bay. The settlers built Fort Duijinhoop, which was replaced by the much more formidable Cape Town Castle in 1666 (Google is a wonderful tool). Granted they did not move north until much later, but then again neither did the US move westward until later as well. The Portuguese were there since the 1400s. Point being, the hunting industry there is a benevolent entity that protects wildlife and the remaining white citizens of Zimbabwe should be supported, at least in my opinion. I could give a ratsass about Mugabe and his lot. Has nothing to do with being an American, but a hunter that enjoys hunting on a continent that is *my* opinion has no equal anywhere else.
260,
I have never seen any meat wasted in Africa, ever. Everything but the contents of the intestines is used everywhere I've been.
That was my point to Jorge2, that starving people sometimes are reduced to "eating the seed", so it is reasonable to assume that the average starving Zimbabwean would get more immediate value from an animal that he kills for himself and his family, than an animal that is killed by a trophy hunter and from which he might get a share. I doubt very much that the average Zimbabwean get much, if any, direct benefit from the safari industry. Either way, it is a moot point, since I'm never likely to be in a position to impose my way of doing business on anybody.
Jeff
It depends what you define as "average" Zimbabwean. In the areas I hunted, virutally 100% of the meat (with the exception of what was eaten in camp) went to the local villages as well as a substantial amount of the trophy fees and that went DIRECT to the villages under the CAMPFIRE agreements, exceeding by a considerable margin the average Zimbabweans income of 400 dollars/year, so Mugabe for the most part could not get his hands on it; hence the local populations in the countryside would benefit from not only a considerable amount of protein but hard currency with which they could by grain and seed to increase their crop yield. Once the animals lose their considerable value they would be no more than meat on the hoof and would soon disappear. Trophy hunting is a good thing for the people of the Zimbabwe countryside and a great thing for the animals. I just can't see why so have an issue with that.
JorgeI:
I've made three trips to Namibia with a fourth planned for next year. I would love to hunt Zim but like a lot of people, I'm conflicted with the situation - don't want to do anything to support "Uncle Bob" and his cronies on one hand, but don't mind supporting the "locals" on the other.
Questions - how can a hunter be sure he is dealing with a "campfire" organized hunt vs one with ties to "Uncle Bob" and don't the gun import fees etc (minor amounts I understand) go to the regime?
yes I would say its between the hunter and the guy who found the hunt we are talking once in a life time here. I wish I had the money to have the hunt and the heads would worth way less that the film in my mind. Rum lover I say go get it have you checked what the price is on stuffing the heads really high and shipping the film best of both worlds. I could see sitting down with the inlaws with pop corn and saying we are going to see a new movie just come out and the look on there face when you dust a few of those very large critters good luck to who goes and post short movies Please! PS any one having a rem 700 rum pm me I have two and love them 338 & 375 when a 300 comes my way at a good price I will get and the 7mm too I am a rum junkie
Sounds to me like there's a ------ in the woodpile here!!
where do you guys get the time to write all these posts and still have time to hunt. or don't you hunt your own country any more? the day i have time to write all these arguments and counter arguments is the day i am not hunting any more and consequently the day i die.
it is just fascinating to watch foreigners dish out answers to African problems.
i hope these posts doesn't reflect the type of conversations around the campfire when you are over here in Africa.
I withdraw my post after all the great reading maybe this guy is not real or decent I would be a little worried about ZIM I had a shooting buddy who was there getting a paycheck in the 60,s said its not such a nice place and the people are rude. so I decide wash my hands of the whole thing good luck with all the hate . I posted with out doing full reading for that Im not sly . If I had the money to go I now think I would look for someone with 20 years of good hunts and a list of happy people who hunted with the guides . hind site is 20/20 they say regards I think all of us would like to hunt over there and many will not due to cost and resources are getting less I would rather read about that hunt and make all those fine critters go away forever IMHO
where do you guys get the time to write all these posts and still have time to hunt. or don't you hunt your own country any more? the day i have time to write all these arguments and counter arguments is the day i am not hunting any more and consequently the day i die.
it is just fascinating to watch foreigners dish out answers to African problems.
i hope these posts doesn't reflect the type of conversations around the campfire when you are over here in Africa.
Dan, I agree with you. If you go back and look, the vast perponderence of the posts are from people who haven't been to Africa. I do think Ray's offer should have been looked at harder by him[personally I think it stinks], that being said, you got a couple of guys raising a stink[one with a personal vendetta, the other, just because he's a dickweed]. People should be aware of a hunt, before they book. Ray kinda stepped on his d**k. Then you have the peanut gallery expousing their theories, just to up their post count.......nuff said.
maddog
where do you guys get the time to write all these posts and still have time to hunt. or don't you hunt your own country any more? the day i have time to write all these arguments and counter arguments is the day i am not hunting any more and consequently the day i die.
it is just fascinating to watch foreigners dish out answers to African problems.
i hope these posts doesn't reflect the type of conversations around the campfire when you are over here in Africa.
Dan, I agree with you. If you go back and look, the vast perponderence of the posts are from people who haven't been to Africa. I do think Ray's offer should have been looked at harder by him[personally I think it stinks], that being said, you got a couple of guys raising a stink[one with a personal vendetta, the other, just because he's a dickweed]. People should be aware of a hunt, before they book.
Ray kinda stepped on his d**k. Then you have the peanut gallery expousing their theories, just to up their post count.......nuff said.
maddog
With golf shoes.
Sorry;your an agent its your job to make sure the offer is square BEFORE you want to "make a few dollars".
Sound familiar;
Wildlife slaughtered for ZANU PF rally
ZIMBABWE CONSERVATION TASK FORCE
11th October 2010
WILDIFE SLAUGHTERED FOR ZANU PF RALLY
Last Thursday, 7th October 2010, in Gokwe, President Robert Mugabe held a ZANU PF rally combined with the official opening of the Women's Empowerment Bank.
In order to entice people to attend this event, 3 elephant, 3 buffalo and a number of smaller animals were shot and cooked. It is common knowledge that under the current economic climate, many people in the rural areas are starving and will make an effort to attend any function where free food is available.
Ray kinda stepped on his d**k.
With golf shoes.
hey guys, look at Africa, only been there twice, so I'm no expert, but the history is. Compare it to USA...... lots of differant Indian groups, that were killing each other. as Africa have for ever before the white man... we came in & put ' order' into the mix...now years latter the power has turned....and they start killing each other again...no diferant than whats going on in Afg or Iraq right now...we will never change it... because democracy is a concept their culture does not comprehend. tough deal!!Most have no concept about the rest of the world, they only see the world that is in their close proximity. As most of the third world areas do. I'm rambling now!
This has been fully entertaining.
Many years ago I to had a booking business & reached the same conclusions you did. I don't have enough knowledge & have no interest in doing the research several "Ray Haters" have conducted to know the right or wrong in this $hit storm. I personally know Dudley Rodgers & worked several outdoor shows with him. Dudley is a very stand up guy & is dealing with the mess in Zim as well as he can. Several years ago Ray offered a hunt for Buffalo in SA at a good price. I run an outdoor show for our Safari Club chapter in the DC area & have worked at the Safari Club convention so I have a few connections. After checking with several outfitters & The Hunting Report I suggested to my friend that he book the hunt with Ray. The hunting community is actually a rather small knit group & an outfitter or booking agent screwing clients is rapidly found out. Its very hard to satisfy some hunters & its not unusual for some good outfitters & booking agents to have a negative report filed. The good ones usually resolve the issue frequently at a loss. It seems strange to me that if Ray is out misrepresenting hunts & screwing clients there would be negative reports. I am not aware of any negative reports being filed. I would suggest to those that are in the "Ray Hate" mode to surface those negative reports. The buffalo hunt went as advertised & my friend had a great experience. I for one have read more than enough about this topic.
tbear, I agree.....
maddog
JorgeI:
I've made three trips to Namibia with a fourth planned for next year. I would love to hunt Zim but like a lot of people, I'm conflicted with the situation - don't want to do anything to support "Uncle Bob" and his cronies on one hand, but don't mind supporting the "locals" on the other.
Questions - how can a hunter be sure he is dealing with a "campfire" organized hunt vs one with ties to "Uncle Bob" and don't the gun import fees etc (minor amounts I understand) go to the regime?
SCI or DSC will be able to tell you, or the particular PH you are hunting with and even more so a good outfitter on this side of the pond to protect your interests. jorge
------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mabhinya on Oct 12, 2010
Location: ZimbabweGentlemen,
Firstly I would like to refer everyone on this thread to the wisdom of Martin Peters who has basically wrapped this up nice and tight, and professionally�...Martin, thanks for jumping in on this one.
Secondly I want to acknowledge Mr. Russ Gould for his apology to me and I accept it and really glad he recognized the people he was dealing with for what they really are.
Thirdly thanks to all those who have supported me in this fracas, especially Wendell who keeps his teeth and claws sharpened for those he represents being client and outfitter, and not afraid to stand up for the truth, and is tenacious when anyone steps on our territory. Thanks Dude!
To Mr Atkinson.
Sir, Please be careful who you deal with in this business. If you deal in South Africa, you use South African outfitters, NOT Zimbabweans, and if you deal in Zimbabwe, use bonafide Zim operators, NOT South Africans. South African hunters are no more than observers in my camp, and yes they do book clients through me and attend their clients hunts and of course they get a commission as any booking agent. So as soon as you hear of a South African taking on �cull hunts�in Zimbabwe or anything else that is not sanctioned by a real safari operator in Zim then put up a red flag for yourself and do not go there, I don�t care if his name is Robbie Kruger, or Dawie Groenewald or Lawrence Botha, you are going to find yourself exposed to some below the belt deals, and I reckon you may want to be thankful that this one blew up in your face before you committed a client to it and then have to answer some uncomfortable questions when the proverbial - - - - hits the fan. There is too much to lose ...NOT worth it in the end.
I need to confirm my stand with you, and anyone else for that matter, that should I see someone advertising my area without my consent and using another operator, especially a South African, I WILL retaliate with all the legal force required, and use any means at my disposal to expose those involved and bring them down as hard as possible, and I doubt if any ethical, law abiding hunter would oppose me on that. You did just that,� we retaliated,� and happily it caused you to jump around and investigate your own hunt. It appears you found out that the hunt is actually NOT in Gokwe, so I would suggest that the person who told you it WAS in Gokwe has no clue about the country, the concessions and who�s toes he is tramping on and I would suggest you cut ties with him because the next move he makes may be worse for you.
While on this issue, I need to tell you that I can probably name a number of South Africans who have come into Zim and used their �power contacts� to rape our country of its wildlife and disregard any laws appertaining to the conservation of fauna and flora in this beautiful country of OURS,- NOT THEIRS! Check the other post about the SCI ��sweetheart� Dawie Groenewald, and his political contacts in Zim,- Veeery interesting!! I wonder how SCI feel that maybe some of the �big bucks� he gave them is from good old rhino horn. They need to throw away the key!
We have just got news of some organized poaching in our area last night and my son is going up now to investigate the situation, may be the very one, - white pick up involved.
By the way this is my first post on AR�Im a new boy at this! Hope I did not offend anyone.
Cheers Dudley
Dudley Rogers
Tshabezi Safaris
Zimbabwe
the above is from:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ganyana on Oct 12, 2010
Location: ZimbabweThere is also much that one can learn by reading...and seeing the whole picture- like the statement-
'I have contacted Sally Bown at ZPHGA' && it's all above board.' Pitty Sally hasn't been at work for two months now....Sally and ZPHGA have never been contacted on this by Ray...the above is from:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------
Jorge,
Hope you won't mind me correcting you slightly about who to go to for information.
SCI/DSC are no-where near the best people to consult. In fact, the recent OoA rhino poaching debacle will probably (sic) show the company have hunted a number of SCI members on seized land. I'm not suggesting they were involved in the poaching just that they (mostly unknowingly) hunted on seized land.
The best people to consult are ZPHGA, Martin Pieters or Don Heath, both of whom post on AR.
Don't mind at all, good information is very valuable. Personally I am extremely carful who I hunt or book with and here in the US there are a number of reputable outfitters, Atcheson & J&B adventures just to name two, whose track record is beyond repproach. I know my way around Zim PH/outfitters pretty well and if I ever have a question,Don is always happy to answer for me and of course, I have John Sharp and he'll never steer me wrong. I slowly learning the Mozambique outfitters and PHs as well and there are some really good ones established over there as well. jorge
Jorge,
You're dead right about Don & Sharpie..... both are true blue.
As you say, the Moz guys are a mixed bunch with some very dodgy fly by nights amongst 'em but the good guys are really good.
I was arranging a buff hunt with John Sharp, which fell through because of personal difficulties that came up. I have to say a more professional, understanding person would be very hard to find.
I've know John for about eleven years now and when it comes to hunting in Zim, there are many, many good PHs and as good as John I'm sure, but none better. jorge
------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mabhinya on Oct 12, 2010
Location: ZimbabweGentlemen,
Firstly I would like to refer everyone on this thread to the wisdom of Martin Peters who has basically wrapped this up nice and tight, and professionally�...Martin, thanks for jumping in on this one.
Secondly I want to acknowledge Mr. Russ Gould for his apology to me and I accept it and really glad he recognized the people he was dealing with for what they really are.
Thirdly thanks to all those who have supported me in this fracas, especially Wendell who keeps his teeth and claws sharpened for those he represents being client and outfitter, and not afraid to stand up for the truth, and is tenacious when anyone steps on our territory. Thanks Dude!
To Mr Atkinson.
Sir, Please be careful who you deal with in this business. If you deal in South Africa, you use South African outfitters, NOT Zimbabweans, and if you deal in Zimbabwe, use bonafide Zim operators, NOT South Africans. South African hunters are no more than observers in my camp, and yes they do book clients through me and attend their clients hunts and of course they get a commission as any booking agent. So as soon as you hear of a South African taking on �cull hunts�in Zimbabwe or anything else that is not sanctioned by a real safari operator in Zim then put up a red flag for yourself and do not go there, I don�t care if his name is Robbie Kruger, or Dawie Groenewald or Lawrence Botha, you are going to find yourself exposed to some below the belt deals, and I reckon you may want to be thankful that this one blew up in your face before you committed a client to it and then have to answer some uncomfortable questions when the proverbial - - - - hits the fan. There is too much to lose ...NOT worth it in the end.
I need to confirm my stand with you, and anyone else for that matter, that should I see someone advertising my area without my consent and using another operator, especially a South African, I WILL retaliate with all the legal force required, and use any means at my disposal to expose those involved and bring them down as hard as possible, and I doubt if any ethical, law abiding hunter would oppose me on that. You did just that,� we retaliated,� and happily it caused you to jump around and investigate your own hunt. It appears you found out that the hunt is actually NOT in Gokwe, so I would suggest that the person who told you it WAS in Gokwe has no clue about the country, the concessions and who�s toes he is tramping on and I would suggest you cut ties with him because the next move he makes may be worse for you.
While on this issue, I need to tell you that I can probably name a number of South Africans who have come into Zim and used their �power contacts� to rape our country of its wildlife and disregard any laws appertaining to the conservation of fauna and flora in this beautiful country of OURS,- NOT THEIRS! Check the other post about the SCI ��sweetheart� Dawie Groenewald, and his political contacts in Zim,- Veeery interesting!! I wonder how SCI feel that maybe some of the �big bucks� he gave them is from good old rhino horn. They need to throw away the key!
We have just got news of some organized poaching in our area last night and my son is going up now to investigate the situation, may be the very one, - white pick up involved.
By the way this is my first post on AR�Im a new boy at this! Hope I did not offend anyone.
Cheers Dudley
Dudley Rogers
Tshabezi Safaris
Zimbabwe
the above is from:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ganyana on Oct 12, 2010
Location: ZimbabweThere is also much that one can learn by reading...and seeing the whole picture- like the statement-
'I have contacted Sally Bown at ZPHGA' && it's all above board.' Pitty Sally hasn't been at work for two months now....Sally and ZPHGA have never been contacted on this by Ray...the above is from:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------
He has, apparently, now stepped on it with both golf shoes.
I am confident he will come forward and explain all of this and do it up front, "the cowboy way".
It is refreshing to see those within the business policing their own and is long, long overdue. Yet some here call it "grinding axes", "professional jealousy", etc.
Bob, thanks for your post.
It is refreshing to see those within the business policing their own and is long, long overdue. Yet some here call it "grinding axes", "professional jealousy", etc.
I have reached out to a few people that have had a different opinion on how this should have been handled and have had positive communication with them. I see what they are saying and I feel like they can understand where I am coming from. In the future I wont be as brash when calling attention to a hunt offering that I feel is not on the up and up.
Drummond
Brash ain't trash, hs, and we ain't talking here about booking a 3 day Antelope hunt and driving round trip from Kansas to N.E. Wyoming, either. Let the chips fall.
Just a guess but this will be like the AR Sheephunter thread where "one" will make more accusations, denigrations, obfuscations, promises to clarify, then delete as much as possible, cut, run and hide. Expecting a post by his lawyer, one Mr. something "Esquire". The pattern seems long established, folks do it to themselves.
There are no "Ray haters" here as described by one, earlier. Only those that want and expect a square deal for their hard earned money and their valuable time, and ACCURATE info to base their decisions on, that's all.
As always, Caveat Emptor.
Bob, thanks for your post.
You're very welcome.
-Bob F.
Just a guess but this will be like the AR Sheephunter thread where "one" will make more accusations, denigrations, obfuscations, promises to clarify, then delete as much as possible, cut, run and hide. Expecting a post by his lawyer, one Mr. something "Esquire". The pattern seems long established, folks do it to themselves.
Hmmm... I can tell by the above that you've been around the hunting/shooting forums for awhile. So have I. I've been a member of the AR forums since February 2001 (with the same user handle/name there as I use here). I remember the Sheephunter thread debacle over on the AR forums. I think you summed it up quite well.
There are no "Ray haters" here as described by one, earlier. Only those that want and expect a square deal for their hard earned money and their valuable time, and ACCURATE info to base their decisions on, that's all.
As always, Caveat Emptor.
Well said. I agree 100%.
Cheers!
-Bob F.
I am confident he will come forward and explain all of this and do it up front, "the cowboy way".
That would be a first. Not with Josh, not with Sheephunter, and that is the problem. Everyone makes a mistake but when Ray makes them, all that bluff and bluster about the "cowboy way" of standing behind his client goes up in smoke right quick. THAT is the reason Ray catches so much grief.
I am confident he will come forward and explain all of this and do it up front, "the cowboy way".
That would be a first. Not with Josh, not with Sheephunter, and that is the problem. Everyone makes a mistake but when Ray makes them, all that bluff and bluster about the "cowboy way" of standing behind his client goes up in smoke right quick. THAT is the reason Ray catches so much grief.
Don't forget Ray's tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and out right lie plays a pivotal role....
Well, there is that
Has the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued a warrant for Atkinson's arrest for conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act?
If not now, hopefully soon....
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/hot_issues/lacey_act/index.shtmlhttp://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act![[Linked Image]](http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2010/07/26/ronald-mcdonald-is-arrested-in.jpeg)
________________________
POST EDITED TO ADD:
Dr. Don Heath, formerly of Zimbabwe National Parks, a licensed professional hunter in Zimbabwe, and former editor of African Hunter magazine states the following:
1) Director General of Natioanl Parks is Vitalis CHADENGA...I have never heard of a Sadanga in Parks.
2) Just because Parks have issued a permit doesn't make it 'legal'. At least two South African PH's have arrived on my dads farm clutching a Permit (NP 10) from Parks giving them permission to shoot game that a) they are not legally entitled to and b) doesn't occur there.
3) Ray...sorry I do not recall writing any letters to say that a hunt in Dudelys concession with another operator was legal Eeker
Dudley and I are hardly 'mates' but even if I hated him (which I don't) he got his area fairly before the politics crept in - and I will NEVER condone a back door attempt to cut into another operators area.
lastly, you of all people should know not to send an unsuspecting client to go poaching...especially posting it on the net when we are all free to climb in Wink
But I must thank you for bringing these activities into the light...I can assure you Mr Chadenga will face a few very searching questions of what permits he is issuing to who (especially as the Minister / Dr Madzikanda) regard this as their private preserve...
Let me re-state that more succinctly: This "hunt" proposed by Mr. Atkinson is illegal and will be considered poaching, which will be a felony under both Zimbabwe law and U.S. law. The client will face and investigation and likely charges in both Zimbabwe and the United States.
Does anyone doubt that an American hunting client would receive lots of "attention" in a Zimbabwe jail?
Further, consider the recent case of Out of Africa personnel being arrested and facing criminal charges for Lacey Act violations.
If Mr. Atkinson persists, I will have to consider tasking the First Lady (also known as the "First Black Panther") to head up the task force on this matter. And you better hope her rabies shot is up to date.
![[Linked Image]](http://weeseeyou.com/wp-content/gallery/michelle_nfl/michellenfl090920j.jpg)
The fact that the hunt was even advertised was bad, no question about it. That being said, Ray was not the only agent that advertised the hunt and I dont feel he should be singled out because of that. The other agents dropped it as soon as the facts were presented to them
His lies after the facts were presented and the fact that he not only defends the hunt but continues to claim that its legal is yet more testament to the kind of guy he is IMO. Whats worse is that its predictable and that shows a pattern
Regardless, this is just sad
Drummond
Ray "McBragg" (moniker attached after being de-nutted on AR) Atkinson and his endeavors aside, perhaps someone here knows Mickey1 and could get him here (he used to post here some while back and did post as "Mickey" on AR) to comment on some folks that he knew or knows that got subpeoned concerning similar circumstances (Lacey violations) and the severe nature of those pending charges, it involved the State Dep't. It may have been connected with OoA hunts but I'm not too sure about that, it was an AR post as I recall. Mickey is an absolute, no bs'er, straight arrow Gent and wished he'd get back to the Campfire to share his knowledge on double rifles and Africa hunting in general.
That said,,,,,Jorge', Bob Faucett, Mark Claiborne, J.J., luv2safari, et.al., anyone remember Mickey from here or from AR? I think Mickey also hung out on
www.nitroexpress.com.edited to add: Ray told the complete truth when he posted this as "An Unusual Offer".
That said,,,,,Jorge', Bob Faucett, Mark Claiborne, J.J., luv2safari, et.al., anyone remember Mickey from here or from AR? I think Mickey also hung out on
www.nitroexpress.com.Just vaguely.... I remember the user name handle but that's about it. Sorry...
-Bob F.
I remember him well and hated to see him leave AR.
I first met him on NitroExpress. He just seems to have vanished.
Thanks, Gents. Maybe he will reappear.
Drag JudgeG back this way. His hunt reports were good reads as I recall. Would like to read the one w/the hippo and 416 Ruger.
Ray "McBragg" (moniker attached after being de-nutted on AR) Atkinson and his endeavors aside, perhaps someone here knows Mickey1 and could get him here (he used to post here some while back and did post as "Mickey" on AR) to comment on some folks that he knew or knows that got subpeoned concerning similar circumstances (Lacey violations) and the severe nature of those pending charges, it involved the State Dep't. It may have been connected with OoA hunts but I'm not too sure about that, it was an AR post as I recall. Mickey is an absolute, no bs'er, straight arrow Gent and wished he'd get back to the Campfire to share his knowledge on double rifles and Africa hunting in general.
That said,,,,,Jorge', Bob Faucett, Mark Claiborne, J.J., luv2safari, et.al., anyone remember Mickey from here or from AR? I think Mickey also hung out on
www.nitroexpress.com.edited to add: Ray told the complete truth when he posted this as "An Unusual Offer".
Not ringing bells in my head, what should I/we remember about him?
I thought my post was self explanatory. No problem and thanks, Mark.
If you have any comments or experiences on Africa as it regards violations to the Lacey Act, penalties from that, folks getting steered to the wrong concessions (knowingly or unknowingly), fubars, etc. (see thread title and all contents), please feel free to share them with us. We'd like to hear them.
I have a letter coming from the Governor of Zimbabwe who initiated the hunt with Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger. It is a meat hunt for tribal proverty. The hunt is in Shangwari North and South and not on anyones concession according to the governor and Dudley is just making noise in his words to Robbie. The hunt is sold once this all gets cleared up and I get the letter of confirmation..
Greenhorn and his butt buddy HuntSonora, neither of whom have ever been to Africa, and never will, are just up to their usual tactics. Saeed told HuntSonara to take his flamming towards me someplace else he was tired of listining to it..so they came over to contaminate 24 hr.
As to posting pictures to folks like them, never going to happen, and I don't give a [bleep] who likes it or who doesn't. I will deal with clients not internet monkies.Furthermore I have all the emails and documentation from both blogs and emails sent to me and I will, at some point release them to the proper authorities or whoever I think can use them, so if any wrong doing is out there I will have furnished the proof and cleared myself of any wrong doing. Furthermore if wrong doing is being done then the Zim gov. must be involved! I will testify if asked, but the facts are I believe it to be a perfectly legitamate hunt and this is just more of internet bullshit by the same old scum bags, that have no proof, no knowledge and like most ladies sewing circles these wanabes like so spread melicious gossip as they are truly jealous of my 40 years of success in the booking business. They can kiss my ass.
I have no dog in this fight, but that bolded part above is enough proof to me to NEVER go with him or anyone he is affiliated with.
Proof is in the puddin dude, and if you absolutely WILL NOT show the puddin, why should anyone EVER hunt with you?
Plus, Drummond is good friends with one of my best buds and I believe he is good people and trustworthy more so than someone who absolutely refuses to provide proof for any animal that has been taken through "his" bookings.
If someone is naive enough to think that someone in the 'govt' couldn't or wouldn't be involved, they certainly were born at night to say the least... especially in a rotten 3rd world [bleep].
If any of you haven't yet done so and care to, take a trip over to AR and view much of the same on this Unusual Offer in the "Outfitters-Discounted Hunts" thread.
Mick is still around, but not whether he is visiting 24hr.