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tbear, I agree.....
maddog
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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JorgeI:
I've made three trips to Namibia with a fourth planned for next year. I would love to hunt Zim but like a lot of people, I'm conflicted with the situation - don't want to do anything to support "Uncle Bob" and his cronies on one hand, but don't mind supporting the "locals" on the other.
Questions - how can a hunter be sure he is dealing with a "campfire" organized hunt vs one with ties to "Uncle Bob" and don't the gun import fees etc (minor amounts I understand) go to the regime? SCI or DSC will be able to tell you, or the particular PH you are hunting with and even more so a good outfitter on this side of the pond to protect your interests. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mabhinya on Oct 12, 2010 Location: ZimbabweGentlemen, Firstly I would like to refer everyone on this thread to the wisdom of Martin Peters who has basically wrapped this up nice and tight, and professionally�...Martin, thanks for jumping in on this one. Secondly I want to acknowledge Mr. Russ Gould for his apology to me and I accept it and really glad he recognized the people he was dealing with for what they really are. Thirdly thanks to all those who have supported me in this fracas, especially Wendell who keeps his teeth and claws sharpened for those he represents being client and outfitter, and not afraid to stand up for the truth, and is tenacious when anyone steps on our territory. Thanks Dude! To Mr Atkinson. Sir, Please be careful who you deal with in this business. If you deal in South Africa, you use South African outfitters, NOT Zimbabweans, and if you deal in Zimbabwe, use bonafide Zim operators, NOT South Africans. South African hunters are no more than observers in my camp, and yes they do book clients through me and attend their clients hunts and of course they get a commission as any booking agent. So as soon as you hear of a South African taking on �cull hunts�in Zimbabwe or anything else that is not sanctioned by a real safari operator in Zim then put up a red flag for yourself and do not go there, I don�t care if his name is Robbie Kruger, or Dawie Groenewald or Lawrence Botha, you are going to find yourself exposed to some below the belt deals, and I reckon you may want to be thankful that this one blew up in your face before you committed a client to it and then have to answer some uncomfortable questions when the proverbial - - - - hits the fan. There is too much to lose ...NOT worth it in the end. I need to confirm my stand with you, and anyone else for that matter, that should I see someone advertising my area without my consent and using another operator, especially a South African, I WILL retaliate with all the legal force required, and use any means at my disposal to expose those involved and bring them down as hard as possible, and I doubt if any ethical, law abiding hunter would oppose me on that. You did just that,� we retaliated,� and happily it caused you to jump around and investigate your own hunt. It appears you found out that the hunt is actually NOT in Gokwe, so I would suggest that the person who told you it WAS in Gokwe has no clue about the country, the concessions and who�s toes he is tramping on and I would suggest you cut ties with him because the next move he makes may be worse for you. While on this issue, I need to tell you that I can probably name a number of South Africans who have come into Zim and used their �power contacts� to rape our country of its wildlife and disregard any laws appertaining to the conservation of fauna and flora in this beautiful country of OURS,- NOT THEIRS! Check the other post about the SCI ��sweetheart� Dawie Groenewald, and his political contacts in Zim,- Veeery interesting!! I wonder how SCI feel that maybe some of the �big bucks� he gave them is from good old rhino horn. They need to throw away the key! We have just got news of some organized poaching in our area last night and my son is going up now to investigate the situation, may be the very one, - white pick up involved. By the way this is my first post on AR�Im a new boy at this! Hope I did not offend anyone. Cheers Dudley Dudley Rogers Tshabezi Safaris Zimbabwe the above is from: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Ganyana on Oct 12, 2010 Location: ZimbabweThere is also much that one can learn by reading...and seeing the whole picture- like the statement- 'I have contacted Sally Bown at ZPHGA' && it's all above board.' Pitty Sally hasn't been at work for two months now....Sally and ZPHGA have never been contacted on this by Ray...the above is from: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------
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Jorge,
Hope you won't mind me correcting you slightly about who to go to for information.
SCI/DSC are no-where near the best people to consult. In fact, the recent OoA rhino poaching debacle will probably (sic) show the company have hunted a number of SCI members on seized land. I'm not suggesting they were involved in the poaching just that they (mostly unknowingly) hunted on seized land.
The best people to consult are ZPHGA, Martin Pieters or Don Heath, both of whom post on AR.
Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking though it?
Searched the vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Don't mind at all, good information is very valuable. Personally I am extremely carful who I hunt or book with and here in the US there are a number of reputable outfitters, Atcheson & J&B adventures just to name two, whose track record is beyond repproach. I know my way around Zim PH/outfitters pretty well and if I ever have a question,Don is always happy to answer for me and of course, I have John Sharp and he'll never steer me wrong. I slowly learning the Mozambique outfitters and PHs as well and there are some really good ones established over there as well. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Regular
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Jorge,
You're dead right about Don & Sharpie..... both are true blue.
As you say, the Moz guys are a mixed bunch with some very dodgy fly by nights amongst 'em but the good guys are really good.
Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking though it?
Searched the vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost
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I was arranging a buff hunt with John Sharp, which fell through because of personal difficulties that came up. I have to say a more professional, understanding person would be very hard to find.
Randy formerly posting as medicman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I've know John for about eleven years now and when it comes to hunting in Zim, there are many, many good PHs and as good as John I'm sure, but none better. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Ranger
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------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mabhinya on Oct 12, 2010 Location: ZimbabweGentlemen, Firstly I would like to refer everyone on this thread to the wisdom of Martin Peters who has basically wrapped this up nice and tight, and professionally�...Martin, thanks for jumping in on this one. Secondly I want to acknowledge Mr. Russ Gould for his apology to me and I accept it and really glad he recognized the people he was dealing with for what they really are. Thirdly thanks to all those who have supported me in this fracas, especially Wendell who keeps his teeth and claws sharpened for those he represents being client and outfitter, and not afraid to stand up for the truth, and is tenacious when anyone steps on our territory. Thanks Dude! To Mr Atkinson. Sir, Please be careful who you deal with in this business. If you deal in South Africa, you use South African outfitters, NOT Zimbabweans, and if you deal in Zimbabwe, use bonafide Zim operators, NOT South Africans. South African hunters are no more than observers in my camp, and yes they do book clients through me and attend their clients hunts and of course they get a commission as any booking agent. So as soon as you hear of a South African taking on �cull hunts�in Zimbabwe or anything else that is not sanctioned by a real safari operator in Zim then put up a red flag for yourself and do not go there, I don�t care if his name is Robbie Kruger, or Dawie Groenewald or Lawrence Botha, you are going to find yourself exposed to some below the belt deals, and I reckon you may want to be thankful that this one blew up in your face before you committed a client to it and then have to answer some uncomfortable questions when the proverbial - - - - hits the fan. There is too much to lose ...NOT worth it in the end. I need to confirm my stand with you, and anyone else for that matter, that should I see someone advertising my area without my consent and using another operator, especially a South African, I WILL retaliate with all the legal force required, and use any means at my disposal to expose those involved and bring them down as hard as possible, and I doubt if any ethical, law abiding hunter would oppose me on that. You did just that,� we retaliated,� and happily it caused you to jump around and investigate your own hunt. It appears you found out that the hunt is actually NOT in Gokwe, so I would suggest that the person who told you it WAS in Gokwe has no clue about the country, the concessions and who�s toes he is tramping on and I would suggest you cut ties with him because the next move he makes may be worse for you. While on this issue, I need to tell you that I can probably name a number of South Africans who have come into Zim and used their �power contacts� to rape our country of its wildlife and disregard any laws appertaining to the conservation of fauna and flora in this beautiful country of OURS,- NOT THEIRS! Check the other post about the SCI ��sweetheart� Dawie Groenewald, and his political contacts in Zim,- Veeery interesting!! I wonder how SCI feel that maybe some of the �big bucks� he gave them is from good old rhino horn. They need to throw away the key! We have just got news of some organized poaching in our area last night and my son is going up now to investigate the situation, may be the very one, - white pick up involved. By the way this is my first post on AR�Im a new boy at this! Hope I did not offend anyone. Cheers Dudley Dudley Rogers Tshabezi Safaris Zimbabwe the above is from: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Ganyana on Oct 12, 2010 Location: ZimbabweThere is also much that one can learn by reading...and seeing the whole picture- like the statement- 'I have contacted Sally Bown at ZPHGA' && it's all above board.' Pitty Sally hasn't been at work for two months now....Sally and ZPHGA have never been contacted on this by Ray...the above is from: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141/p/4------------------------------------------ He has, apparently, now stepped on it with both golf shoes. I am confident he will come forward and explain all of this and do it up front, "the cowboy way". It is refreshing to see those within the business policing their own and is long, long overdue. Yet some here call it "grinding axes", "professional jealousy", etc. Bob, thanks for your post.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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It is refreshing to see those within the business policing their own and is long, long overdue. Yet some here call it "grinding axes", "professional jealousy", etc.
I have reached out to a few people that have had a different opinion on how this should have been handled and have had positive communication with them. I see what they are saying and I feel like they can understand where I am coming from. In the future I wont be as brash when calling attention to a hunt offering that I feel is not on the up and up. Drummond
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Brash ain't trash, hs, and we ain't talking here about booking a 3 day Antelope hunt and driving round trip from Kansas to N.E. Wyoming, either. Let the chips fall.
Just a guess but this will be like the AR Sheephunter thread where "one" will make more accusations, denigrations, obfuscations, promises to clarify, then delete as much as possible, cut, run and hide. Expecting a post by his lawyer, one Mr. something "Esquire". The pattern seems long established, folks do it to themselves.
There are no "Ray haters" here as described by one, earlier. Only those that want and expect a square deal for their hard earned money and their valuable time, and ACCURATE info to base their decisions on, that's all.
As always, Caveat Emptor.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Bob, thanks for your post. You're very welcome. -Bob F.
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Just a guess but this will be like the AR Sheephunter thread where "one" will make more accusations, denigrations, obfuscations, promises to clarify, then delete as much as possible, cut, run and hide. Expecting a post by his lawyer, one Mr. something "Esquire". The pattern seems long established, folks do it to themselves. Hmmm... I can tell by the above that you've been around the hunting/shooting forums for awhile. So have I. I've been a member of the AR forums since February 2001 (with the same user handle/name there as I use here). I remember the Sheephunter thread debacle over on the AR forums. I think you summed it up quite well. There are no "Ray haters" here as described by one, earlier. Only those that want and expect a square deal for their hard earned money and their valuable time, and ACCURATE info to base their decisions on, that's all.
As always, Caveat Emptor. Well said. I agree 100%. Cheers! -Bob F.
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I am confident he will come forward and explain all of this and do it up front, "the cowboy way".
That would be a first. Not with Josh, not with Sheephunter, and that is the problem. Everyone makes a mistake but when Ray makes them, all that bluff and bluster about the "cowboy way" of standing behind his client goes up in smoke right quick. THAT is the reason Ray catches so much grief.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I am confident he will come forward and explain all of this and do it up front, "the cowboy way".
That would be a first. Not with Josh, not with Sheephunter, and that is the problem. Everyone makes a mistake but when Ray makes them, all that bluff and bluster about the "cowboy way" of standing behind his client goes up in smoke right quick. THAT is the reason Ray catches so much grief. Don't forget Ray's tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and out right lie plays a pivotal role....
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Well, there is that 
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Has the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued a warrant for Atkinson's arrest for conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act? If not now, hopefully soon.... http://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/hot_issues/lacey_act/index.shtmlhttp://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act![[Linked Image]](http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2010/07/26/ronald-mcdonald-is-arrested-in.jpeg) ________________________ POST EDITED TO ADD: Dr. Don Heath, formerly of Zimbabwe National Parks, a licensed professional hunter in Zimbabwe, and former editor of African Hunter magazine states the following:
1) Director General of Natioanl Parks is Vitalis CHADENGA...I have never heard of a Sadanga in Parks.
2) Just because Parks have issued a permit doesn't make it 'legal'. At least two South African PH's have arrived on my dads farm clutching a Permit (NP 10) from Parks giving them permission to shoot game that a) they are not legally entitled to and b) doesn't occur there.
3) Ray...sorry I do not recall writing any letters to say that a hunt in Dudelys concession with another operator was legal Eeker
Dudley and I are hardly 'mates' but even if I hated him (which I don't) he got his area fairly before the politics crept in - and I will NEVER condone a back door attempt to cut into another operators area.
lastly, you of all people should know not to send an unsuspecting client to go poaching...especially posting it on the net when we are all free to climb in Wink
But I must thank you for bringing these activities into the light...I can assure you Mr Chadenga will face a few very searching questions of what permits he is issuing to who (especially as the Minister / Dr Madzikanda) regard this as their private preserve...
Let me re-state that more succinctly: This "hunt" proposed by Mr. Atkinson is illegal and will be considered poaching, which will be a felony under both Zimbabwe law and U.S. law. The client will face and investigation and likely charges in both Zimbabwe and the United States. Does anyone doubt that an American hunting client would receive lots of "attention" in a Zimbabwe jail? Further, consider the recent case of Out of Africa personnel being arrested and facing criminal charges for Lacey Act violations. If Mr. Atkinson persists, I will have to consider tasking the First Lady (also known as the "First Black Panther") to head up the task force on this matter. And you better hope her rabies shot is up to date. ![[Linked Image]](http://weeseeyou.com/wp-content/gallery/michelle_nfl/michellenfl090920j.jpg)
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The fact that the hunt was even advertised was bad, no question about it. That being said, Ray was not the only agent that advertised the hunt and I dont feel he should be singled out because of that. The other agents dropped it as soon as the facts were presented to them
His lies after the facts were presented and the fact that he not only defends the hunt but continues to claim that its legal is yet more testament to the kind of guy he is IMO. Whats worse is that its predictable and that shows a pattern
Regardless, this is just sad
Drummond
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Ray "McBragg" (moniker attached after being de-nutted on AR) Atkinson and his endeavors aside, perhaps someone here knows Mickey1 and could get him here (he used to post here some while back and did post as "Mickey" on AR) to comment on some folks that he knew or knows that got subpeoned concerning similar circumstances (Lacey violations) and the severe nature of those pending charges, it involved the State Dep't. It may have been connected with OoA hunts but I'm not too sure about that, it was an AR post as I recall. Mickey is an absolute, no bs'er, straight arrow Gent and wished he'd get back to the Campfire to share his knowledge on double rifles and Africa hunting in general. That said,,,,,Jorge', Bob Faucett, Mark Claiborne, J.J., luv2safari, et.al., anyone remember Mickey from here or from AR? I think Mickey also hung out on www.nitroexpress.com.edited to add: Ray told the complete truth when he posted this as "An Unusual Offer".
Last edited by Old_Toot; 10/18/10.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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That said,,,,,Jorge', Bob Faucett, Mark Claiborne, J.J., luv2safari, et.al., anyone remember Mickey from here or from AR? I think Mickey also hung out on www.nitroexpress.com.Just vaguely.... I remember the user name handle but that's about it. Sorry... -Bob F.
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