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stick any steelhead?

It would be a sin not to fish in this weather......

This thread is really growing.

I'd like to see some "real" number on the profit, or not, the gubmint makes on Federal timber sales. Of course that would have to include the cost of the roads being put in, after all any private company that owned their land would have to pay for it.

I'd also like to see some "real" numbers about grazing leases. As far as I can tell a lease pays less than what the property taxes would cost the rancher if he owned the land free and clear...and he'd have to still pay for fencing and water and stuff if he did own it.

Do we, the taxpayer, really subsidize something that should be making us money?

I was busy running the show.

Am hoping to grab a day off,the Sunday after next.

Might make a coupla casts after work,but am banking my time off for Bruins.

Spring HAS Sprung.................

I do not doubt that the Feds loose money selling timber...but that is just an example of how much B.S. the Feds are...

Private timber owners make money selling timber...

How could you not make money ?
Figure your cost, ad some for profit, and you have a price...no takers=no sale.

The economy wins even if the Feds "loose" money...

Let's do it this way.

Forget roads and incorporate Helicopters.

All the USFS has gotta do,is lay a ribbon boundary line and reap proceeds.

If'n you feel compelled to subsidize that,it'd be at your own discretion........................

Right you are! Some years ago there was something of an uproar (among evil racist Republicans) about the political appointees in charge of NYC's OTB (paramutual betting operation) losing $$$millions. The sort of resourcefulness and ingenuity that is required to lose money on a bookmaking operation, can only be found in government service.

The Feds have a much deeper talent pool to draw from. It's not hard to see how they could lose money on timber sales.

I've likely cut more USFS Timber that was worth a minimum of $1000 mbf,than not.

Using that conservative baseline,revenue oughtta runneth over. I can extrapolate,as per inquiries.

The profit margin is sweetened muchly,by Injuns that received vast stands,but wanted to "do it on their own".

It's all hilarious.................

Stick,

You would be wrong, course to each his own.

I simply like the idea of wild horses in the west, here again though I have no fish to fry, I don't lease Govt. land at ridiculously low rates and then bitch because the horses stomp up the waterholes that the tax payers built. I also am very much against current management techniques of these animals especially since this thread has started. I would much rather see the horses, and kill off the Grizzlies and wolves, course that's just me.

Snuffy1, let me get this straight. You would rather kill off a natural resource, but you are all for sustaining a non-natural resource (read livestock gone wild.) Man, the air from the smoke stacks in Utah must really be contaminated this time of year. It's obviously causing some serious brain damage. You aren't a California transplant are you?

Seems to me that to enjoy the company/utility of a horse one must be smarter than said horse - could be that's the problem with some and their attitude toward equines... Personally I think the wild horse herds are mismanaged and poor animals should most certainly be culled (that means most of those being held and fed in BLM holding facilities also), but I like the idea that some still exist on the range.

The Feds are us though. That money is mine and yours. I don't get cheaper lumber at the lumber yard because of it. The private lumber costs the same as the stuff that was logged off of Federal land, yet I subsidize the Federal logging more than I do Plum Creek, Boise Cascade, or Weyerheuser (sp?).

There's also plenty of evidence that guys that run cattle on land they lease from the Feds make more profit than those that use their own, or other privately held land. Again, why? If a guy can own or lease his neighbors land and make a living raising cattle then why should the Feds (we the people) give another guy a better deal? Why should my buddy Vic, or Ed down the road from me get less profit for delivering the same product to the market. They work just as hard as the cattlemen that lease BLM of USFS land.

That really punches a hole in the "horses are costing us money" thing. EVERYTHING seems to cost the Fed money, even things that by all rights should be MAKING money.

So why shouldn't we raise the AUM rate on grazing leases to match the market? That's how the Feds determine wages for their employees. I've been part of that process and watched it work. It seems fair. So why the deal for the lease guys and the logging outfits without their own land? Isn't that a sort of welfare for what should be a profitable venture without it?

Public outcry stopped the rounding up for ranches or sending of wild horses to the rendering/soap, glue factories. Since then they have proliferated. The main population is in Nevada Arizona and the Southwest.

Pryor Mountain Wild Horse Range, Wyoming covers 47,000 acres on the western side of the Bighorn Canyon. It's carrying capacity is about 120 horses controlled by periodic roundup. It was established in 1968 as the nations first wild horse range. There are two other wild horse ranges in Nevada and Colorado and there are another 3,000 wild horsed in the Red Desert of southwest Wyoming. Many of the horses at Pryor remain out of sight in box canyons. But there are some tame ones along the road between Horseshoe Bend and Layout Creek Ranger Station.

Most wild horses in the west are of mixed origin. Some released by ranchers and some can trace blood lines to the Spanish Mustangs brought to the new world by the Spaniards in the 1600's. The Pryor Mountain horses are the most strongly related to the Spanish Mustangs. Their purity is seen in colors that include dun, blue roan, grulla and sabino. Most have dark manes and tails. Some have dark leg banding and dark streaks running down the back. After 1971 it was illegal to chase, hunt or kill wild horses.

The BLM has an adopt a horse program. They truck horses and burros all over the USA and have auctions. The starting bid price is $125. Almost all of the burros are sold out immediately. About half of the horses do not receive a bid and are trucked back. Many sell for $125 with only one bid. *( If you see a horse you like but didn't bid or want a horse that didn't receive a bid and was trucked back you have an excellent chance of making a deal with BLM for $125 ). The horses are separated and categorized in portable steel pipe corrals. There are some big, tall, beautiful horses roans with white faces and stockings. Some are Palominos which are truly beautiful blonde horses. The top horses receive vigorous bids from several and the bidding usually stops at $800. Very few horses receive that bid, perhaps only one per auction. Only a few go for $400 to $600. The BLM sets up bleachers for the bidders. They also set up a breaking corral, at the auction, in which a private professional horse trainer breaks a demonstration horse. He is available for hire. Note that all horses are wild unbroken and not saddle ready. You cannot ride them until they are broken. When you go to auction you must bring a horse trailer. You will load your horse immediately upon conclusion of the auction and completion of the paperwork. The horse and trailer must be removed promptly. The "rig" must be of a suitable construction to properly haul a horse.

BLM's condition of sale is that you must have ready a corral of certain dimensions and a shelter. You get the horse but not the title for one year. They come around on inspection and if the horse is neglected, not cared for it goes back. After one year and a satisfactory inspection you get the horse and are named owner. You can then sell or otherwise trade. The horse is cheap enough for the children or grandchildren but the annual costs of feeding, stableing, veterinarian, gear, saddle, and fixed costs of corral, shelter, horse trailer, pickup truck should be scrutinized carefully.

Here is BLM's website:

http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov/index.php

Most hunters curse the horses who have a reputation of causing plenty of damage and competing with wild game.

There are some wild horses living on islands off the Maryland coast. They are a tourist attraction and there is a roundup which attracts much interest. Those that are on the mainland and mingle in close priximity to summertime tourists are rather small multi colored, paints and have a nasty disposition. They kick and bite anyone who comes too close.

Bill Tibbe

Those horses have been culled for years..but in reverse. All the good stock was taken out and sold long ago leaving the chaff behind. That's why you see horse with lousy legs or other problems. Having a pretty head really isn't a survival thing. There are plenty of people around with some pretty damn ugly jugs on their necks that prove that. Arabians are supposed to have pretty heads and they don't even make good jerky. Pretty is as pretty does....and most of them don't.

I was up in the Pasayten a few years ago. A guy came by our camp and he was on a black mustang he'd adopted. It was a bit small for my liking but it was well built and carried his 200+ lb. just fine. They'd already made the 20 miles from the trailhead and that pony had plenty more in the tank. The stud my buddy Gene had was Spanish Barb stock adopted from the wild. He had a butt load of foals off of that guy. I have two of them. He is also a fine beast, and not too small. They do seem to take the best ones and leave the garbage out there to breed. Not the best way to run an outfit.

As long as we don't have a dictatorship we're going to have disagreements about public land use. I happen to think catch and release fishing is torture. Catch, bonk on the head, and eat is humane. I'd rather see no fishing every other year than
"fly fishing only" or "catch and release only" but I'm not in charge. If it was up to me there would be a bag limit on herons, cormorants, egrets, pelicans, seals, sea lions, and a few other critters considered too sacred to shoot...but I'm not in charge.

I'd overturn every moratorium on offshore drilling in the lower 48 before I'd drill in the ANWR. That oil is closer to the market.

I'd burn all the Arab's oil I could before I'd use any of our untapped fields though. There is one in Clay County TX. I'd like to see them keep on pumping though. That check every month is nice but it goes fast...

I wish we could shoot every wild horse and burro out there on BLM land. They are not natural as wild game are, to say so is pure BS. Every see what wild horses do to the land scape or a Tank, water hole? They tear it up and make it unusable.

Worthless ill-witted beast, worse than cats.

Oh" for the days that Parker Ackley had in Sligman AZ....

Wolves and Wild Horses....SSS

It usually comes down to: If the person doesn't have to put up with them ,they are great. If the person has a ranch or such and has to put up with them, they are the scurge of the earth. Pretty much like the wolf debate.

Hey, I feel the same about lard guts on ATVs but I manage to restrain myself. Besides, the hole you'd have to dig is just too big to get a fat guy and his mechanical mount covered up before they stink too much.....:)

"lard guts" I like that! I don't like the ATV's either.

I agree with you, lazy fat slobs with big butts ride them.

You wont find them in my camp, neighter will you find the "fuzzy wuzzy feelings" for wild horses.

SteelyEyes
"I'd overturn every moratorium on offshore drilling in the lower 48 before I'd drill in the ANWR. That oil is closer to the market."

Closer to the market, maybe... but very close to a pipeline that has been clicking along since '77 with only a couple glitches... And it is all on land... Talking about a speck in the middle of NO-FRIGGIN"-WHERE with potential to supply a tremendous amount of energy for a very long time. And development time would be measured in years. Prudhoe Bay produced a quarter of the US daily use for a long time (IIRC) and there is reason to believe a field to match it is there.

I ran drill-stem tests equipment in the early days of exploratory drilling on the North Slope and never saw a "dry" hole, though the vast majority were plugged and abandoned as not commercial. Many of those fields we tested are now in production because the pipeline has excess capacity... and it still does.

Besides, I like my annual check for being forced to live here in this shotout piece of the wilderness...
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