Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots Martini Question

I inherited a Martini rifle and would like to find out more about it.

It is marked "Westley Richards", "special target" and .22rf. It is now a .22 Hornet.

It is apparently This Special miniature Rifle.

For its age, I'd say it is in very good condition.

I would like to find out more about the background of the rifle and get at least a vague idea of its value. Any pointers or advice would be appreciated.

Not sure but I'd love to see a picture of it.

Ditto that.

I can't help directly because it is a Westley. But you might get some pretty good opinions here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...PSESSID=d848a179d6f0596164b64328f9655686

I prefer the vodka varient with Ketel One,...just a hint of vermouth and stirred with 3 olives on a toothpick.

Shaved ice is good if you want to go to the trouble, but using a pre chilled glass works about as well.

WTF

Blacktail, What are your intentions with this Martini?
I have a BSA Martini heavy wall target in 22RF that was shot out so decided to modify it to something more useful. Turned it into a "Wildcat" 22/357 Maximum. This can easily be done by your gunsmith using a 223 Improved reamer and pushing it in the correct depth, obviously you need to change the extractor claw but thats about it unless the barrel needs replacing.
Bravo 27
A friend DOWNUNDER

I think I will keep it as a hornet. It will make a fun little plinking rifle.

When I get a chance, I'll put up a couple of photos of it.

I really would like to know more about the WR miniature Martinis. Is there a book or site with information?

I have posted a couple of pictures of the rifle to Flickr. Here is the set: Miniature Martini

If anyone is interested, I will try to get more -- and better -- pictures later on today.

Thanks for the responses!

Jim

Blacktail: I have read a bunch on the WR and BSA Martinis but my brain did not log it properly so I hesitate to provide any details. What I would recommend is that you Google it and see what comes up; you should get some good informatio.

Many years ago (1957 or so) in Baltimore the local Sunny's Surplus Store sold rifles and they had racks of the BSA Cadet Martini for sale at the astronomical price of about $15.00! Wish I had bought a bunch of them then.

One issue with these actions is that when you mount a scope on then it can be a bit tight getting cartridges in and out of the chamber, but it is doable. They are a neat package and should be real fun to shoot. You may have an issue with the fact that the rifle was originally a .22 RF and it has been rechambered to .22 Hornet. The RF has a bullet diameter of .222 while the Hornet uses .224 diameter bullets I believe. I don't think you will have a pressure problem but it may impact accuracy. Others here more knowledegable may be able to provide additional info.

Blacktail:

Nice rifle and the Westley Richards name on it adds 50-100% to the value over a BSA. It appears to be a takedown - the two screws or split pins on the front edge of the receiver would suggest that, at least.

I have a BSA Model 15 which was rechambered to .22 Hornet from .22 Long Rifle. Bore diameter was not a problem, but the firing pin hole in the breech face was a bit too large and ended up with primers backing into the hole. It's off being fixed right now. Other than that, there really aren't any issues shooting the Hornet in the original barrel. I usually shoot .223 diameter bullets, as they are designed for the Hornet and are a bit more expansive at Hornet velocities than the .224s, which must also hold together at velocities much higher than the Hornet can generate.

If I recall correctly, the first .22 Hornet in the U.S. was made up on a BSA Martini action converted to centerfire and using the original barrel. The work was done at Frankford Arsenal in Philadelphia by Grover Wotkyns (sp?) for Townsend Whelen if I have the story correct. There's a collector, Mark Berenson, who periodically runs an ad looking for the rifle.

Rem

Gatuner, when I Google, I find a lot of links to the full-sized WR Martini actions, but not the miniature target. I seem to end up chasing my tail and gathering a ton of general Martini data, but nothing that seems to apply to this rifle.

The previous owner rigged a mount on the barrel for a LER scope, so there is no hassle with reaching the chamber for loading. I have some of his handloads, but have not yet miked the bullets, nor can I find any of his data for the loads.

Rem, I just assumed the screws were for disassembly of the action, but I guess the "detachable action" might refer to a takedown feature. I'll have to investigate that.

I once saw some original correspondence between Whelen and Wotkyns but it only mentioned a converted 1922 Springfield. The idea that a Martini may have been the original Hornet intrigues me.

Out of curiosity, what would a BSA rifle in this configuration be worth?

Thanks for the responses!

Jim

I suspect that the WR .22s were made on the same general size of frame as the BSA and Greener "Cadet" actions. Think I remember this from Frank de Haas' single shot action book. These were also made in centerfire for the Australian military school cadets in .310 Greener Cadet caliber and for commercial sale in a number of small "rook" centerfire calibers, as well as .22 RF.

De Haas' "Single Shot Rifles and Actions" has a chapter on these, as does his "Mr. Single Shot's Book of Gunsmithing Projects". And the NRA "Book of Gunsmithing" has details on how to convert a .310 into a sporter, as well as general info on the rifles.

These are strong actions. But the weak point is the thin section of the reciever where the barrel threads are cut into it. People have rebarreled Cadets to some hot ctgs., but hot, THICK diameter ctgs. are a no-no. .357 Mag OK; .44 Magnum not. .25-35 OK; .30-30 probably not. Some of the original Australian batch of Cadets were rechambered to .32 Win Spl. by the importer. Those kicked too much in the light short gun, but the action locking system held up OK. What did tend to go was the chamber swelling where it passed thru the barrel threads (that REALLY makes it hard to remove the barrel, too). But they ARE strong.

Like everything else, these guns are worth what you can get. The WR name is a plus, but this gun is no longer an collector's item since it was rechambered (unless you can prove WR did it). So it's a nice shooter. Check what they are actually selling for on the auction sites, NOT what people are asking. Somebody will think that the WR name is worth gold. Only if you are willing to come up with the gold.....

Nice little rifles,whatever they are "worth"! Certainly more than the $9.95 I paid for my first Cadet (now a .25-35).

Blacktail:

In excellent condition, you'd see people pay $600 or so for a BSA in .22 Hornet. I'd guess the WR would get you a lot more, maybe as much as $1,000. If you go to Gunbroker.com and search Martini, you'll find several BSA Model 12s, 12/15s and Internationals of various marks, but small frame Martinis finished by big-name British makers are pretty unusual. Occasionally, there will be a rook rifle in one of the less than common rook cartridges, but a nicely done one with the Westley Richards name in a readily usable cartridge is hard to find and will bring a premium.

For more information on small frame Martinis, check http://www.adamsguns.com/martini.htm and for specific information about the Westley Richards small frame Martinis, check http://rifleman.org.uk/Westley_Richards_miniature_rifles.htm. The latter web site is amazing - tons of information and a great way to waste a lot of time if you aren't careful.

Rem

Thank you for the info, Mike, and thank you, Mr. 40x. Excellent links.