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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,625 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,625 Likes: 1 |
They ain't a popular choice for those that only pay to hunt. Methinks there is a hidden meaning to this but that's ok I understand.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 207
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 207 |
You mean people knew remington 700's were junk for 20 years but they still keep buying them ?
The reason why I did not buy a Remington 700 decades ago was because of a similar problem with the Remington 600: http://www.remington.com/pages/news...program/remington-model-600-and-660.aspxI was trying to decide on a hunting rifle back in the 1980's. I eliminated the Remington after seeing the Remington 600 recall notice and reading about a park ranger who accidently shot his friend after releasing the safety on his Remington 600. It's been over 20 years but I still remember the anguish I felt after reading about this incident.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320 |
If everyone was forced to hunt with one of the older, in the 50s, Mannlicher rifles with double set triggers, they would soon learn to ALWAYS keep that muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 82
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 82 |
You should always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, firearms 101. A firearm shouldn't just fire at will either though. Im not saying Remington 700's do. none of my have, but if they are and Remington new that it was a poor design then they were wrong, I only heard NBC's side of the story but until I hear Remington's. It seemed convincing.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,287 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,287 Likes: 1 |
The Remington trigger issue is real.
Mike Walker, the engineer behind the original Rem trigger, urged Remington to change the trigger quite early on.
Remington's own studies show 100% muzzle control is not possible.
An internal Remington document showed, in one batch of 600's, a 50% FOSR at the factory.
I've leafed through reams of depositions and documents relating to the Remington Trigger Issue. It's quite depressing really.
At the end of the day, the current ownership of Remington grew a pair and changed the design. A move I applaud them for and they won me back as a customer.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,185 Likes: 4
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,185 Likes: 4 |
And the desin change eliminated to connector to mollify those who had siezed upon it as the root cause. It was not. A trigger block was added to the safety to prevent the trigger being pulled when the safety was engaged. As evidenced by rifles I have had in the shop, the new trigger can be messed up as well by an inept owner. If due, to quality control issues, as before,Remington was to produce some safetys which had a little too much clearance, we would again see some failures.
The connector was not the problem; trigger geometry which exacerbated quality control isses were.
The new trigger is compromised by being made so that retro-fitting is possible. GD
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
5 cents of common sense goes a long way... milking the cow dry then beefing it seems to be a better way to manage a business these days....
i wonder why gm is not linked to multiple deaths involving DUI cases. seems there might be a great story there.. what??!! no device to keep a raging drunk from driving the wrong way up the interstate and killing a family of 5!!!! eeegggaaddsss.... pin heads....
woofer It reportedly would have cost Remington $0.055 (five and one-half cents each) to have installed a redesigned trigger originally. Assuming 6,000,000 Model 700 (and family) rifles to have been produced, this would have cost a total of $330,000. Even assuming inflation, this would have been a much less expensive alternative to lawsuits and settlements. CEO�, accountants and lawyers often make the lousiest decisions.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
You mean people knew remington 700's were junk for 20 years but they still keep buying them ?
Mike Walker recommeded a new trigger design in the 1950's (that's over 50 years ago!).
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,287 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,287 Likes: 1 |
And the desin change eliminated to connector to mollify those who had siezed upon it as the root cause. It was not. A trigger block was added to the safety to prevent the trigger being pulled when the safety was engaged. As evidenced by rifles I have had in the shop, the new trigger can be messed up as well by an inept owner. If due, to quality control issues, as before,Remington was to produce some safetys which had a little too much clearance, we would again see some failures.
The connector was not the problem; trigger geometry which exacerbated quality control isses were.
The new trigger is compromised by being made so that retro-fitting is possible. GD GD, that's interesting... thanks for the insight. What aftermarket trigger do you recommend for the 700? The only one I've used is the Timney...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Hey, any gun you want is fine, I just resent being called a moron.. my parents raised an idiot... I have a letter from my father telling me that they raised an idiot! You too! WE must be brothers! Hi Bro.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,324 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,324 Likes: 1 |
5 cents of common sense goes a long way... milking the cow dry then beefing it seems to be a better way to manage a business these days....
i wonder why gm is not linked to multiple deaths involving DUI cases. seems there might be a great story there.. what??!! no device to keep a raging drunk from driving the wrong way up the interstate and killing a family of 5!!!! eeegggaaddsss.... pin heads....
woofer It reportedly would have cost Remington $0.055 (five and one-half cents each) to have installed a redesigned trigger originally. Assuming 6,000,000 Model 700 (and family) rifles to have been produced, this would have cost a total of $330,000. Even assuming inflation, this would have been a much less expensive alternative to lawsuits and settlements. CEO�, accountants and lawyers often make the lousiest decisions. If a manufacturer admits by making a replacement or a modification to an existing design perhaps markedly in the area of "safety" one has to wonder if the door would have opened to more even more lawsuits....your honor and members of the jury.....even Remington themselves admit that this was a dangerous product that killed Mr. Jones....they admit it not on paper but in a more substantial and convincing manner....by making a replacement trigger that has had the problem "fixed"... ..anyway I am waiting on the big 1/2 price "sale" on 700's so's I can pick up a few..
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
A mere change in product design is not admissible to show a defect in the original design.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,760
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,760 |
I agree, a 5 1/2 cent change when recommended would probably have resolved the entire issue and it would now be long forgotten. Sometimes when you burry your head into the sand to any issues that arise after tooling up and pushing the go button for manufacturing, the small problems turn into bigger systemic problems. You end up spending more effort trying to burry the issues instead of resolving them. At some point you dig yourself into a hole too large to conceal and it becomes front page news. Remington definitely gave a ton of fuel for the liberal press bonfire.
Best:)
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,349
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,349 |
Boo-D-Hoo to the Remington crew! Bout time you got a serving of the same BS we've had to listen to from you every time we mention a different brand. Face it Sitka, you are ass, and now you're getting wiped.
I am the NorthEast WoodsBeast!
"System version 1.3, divorced"
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Go milk a bull, bout all you're probably good at.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Older, Slower, not much wiser. All the downside of youth and none of the pluses.
That about says it all.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,641 Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,641 Likes: 1 |
Boo-D-Hoo to the Remington crew! Bout time you got a serving of the same BS we've had to listen to from you every time we mention a different brand. Face it Sitka, you are ass, and now you're getting wiped. Let's see... I own Mausers of many flavors, Winchesters, Brownings, Kreighoff, Ithacas, Savages, Colts, S&Ws, Taurus, TC, and some I have likely forgotten... Yeah I am the ultimate single brand whore... It takes a lot more than a MSM hack job on a decades-old issue to bother me. And you use a Remington brand as your handle... a brand that signifies the cheapest bullet made? A bullet that has done worse on the Juenke machine of all the bullets I have ever tested? And I am the delusional one?  Have a nice day! art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,625 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,625 Likes: 1 |
So is there some sort of "middle ground" to this discussion or is it all a manufactured tempest in a teapot with absolutely no factual basis? Full disclosure, I only own one Remington rifle, a 22-250 stainless Varminter that shoots dime sized holes all day long, but having said that, I've never cared for Remington's other featurers like a safety that won't lock the bolt, the extractor, bolt handle, etc. Then again I'm one of those who pays to hunt on occassion, thereby deeming me a rank amateur...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,760
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,760 |
![[Linked Image]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5111903055_c9971a66fc.jpg) Maybe this will change the tone a bit, hard not to agree on a .30-06 Springfield:)
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,630
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,630 |
I agree ![[Linked Image]](http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q319/biff_013/270tardo.jpg)
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