Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Remington 700's under fire! Linked to Multiple deaths......

jorge1 ...

As far as I'm concerned, a safety that locks the bolt is a terrible idea ... at least in a two-position safety design ... because it means that if you have a round in the chamber, you MUST put the safety on "fire" before you can open the bolt to remove the round from the chamber.

If that's "cheesy", well ...

I agree, that is why I prefer three position safeties. jorge

Browning's A-Bolt is the same. Just had to make darn sure you had the bbl. in a safe direction when taking it off safe to unload.

The X-Bolt has a bolt unlock button so you can leave it on safe whilst unloading.

I imagine it's safer and a little more idiot proof, still need to keep the wand pointed in a safe direction.

well ... not to nit-pick, but stating that you dislike 2 position safeties makes more sense than stating that you don't like non-bolt-locking safeties ... (grin)

Quite frankly, I've never had my bolt open accidentally - mainly because I relax the striker when it's closed on an empty chamber - which keeps it down pretty tight ...

but even if it did open, it wouldn't matter to me because there's nothing in the chamber to begin with.

That said, I prefer the 2 position, non-bolt-locking safety mechanisms because I just don't like the big shroud safety thing on my rifles ...

but when it all comes down to it, I so rarely use a mechanical safety that it really makes no difference to me at all ... in fact, I've been very tempted to just remove the safeties from my remingtons just so I never have a brain fart where I think I might need to use it (depend on it) ... and so I never end up going to fire the rifle only to realize that the safety is on. That would suck ...

jorge, you don't really believe that the market for aftermarket parts is what it is because of design flaws do you ? I talking about triggers, replacement bolts, bottom metal, firing pin assemblies, recoil lugs, stocks etc..

To me the whole thing about this issue is how very unnecessary the connector is. Even if the occurrence is very rare and mostly theoretical, Remington could have completely removed the possibility of a failure involving the connector, by simply eliminating the connector from the design and using a solid trigger. It would have involved nothing more than a very slight redesign of the actual trigger with no other modifications whatsoever of the trigger mechanism design.

To be aware of the possibility of, or even confirmed cases, of a failure which could be very easily and cheaply ameliorated with no serious negative economic consequences, and do absolutely nothing is the very definition of negligence in these sorts of products liability cases.

Even if the failure only happened once in all the millions of rifles produced, the fact that that particular failure involving the connector could have been prevented by employing a fix that would have cost five cents per rifle is inexcusable.

Not completely no, but it is a factual statement those three specific parts in the 700 fail more often. Of course one can buy a different stocks, sights, etc, but those three parts are an issue. If other rifles had the same problems, I'm sure somebody would have made an issue of it. I guess in the end we'll just have to agree to disagree and in my opinion Remington rifles are not for me. jorge

Come on Jorge.......

Those "three parts" don't just "fail".

--Any trigger system can fail because it's just plain dirty.

--Any trigger system can fail if it's not adjusted correctly.

Indeed, it is one of the strengths of the Walker trigger that has probably created the problem at times--it is imminently adjustable--unlike most other factory bolt action triggers.

In the program, Mike Walker said it the trigger was safe, but also mentioned if the internal parts were not manufactured to specific tolerances, problems could occur. Hence his inspection program.

This debate kinda' reminds of driving 75 mph down the interstate with grossly underinflated tires, then blaming a certain manufacturer when the the tire blows out.........


Casey

Who's responsibility is it to manufacture the components to the correct tolerances?

That's little like saying, "It's a fine trigger when it works right."

According to Mr. Walker, Remington discontinued his inspection process as well.

I don't know if they have a problem or not, but when the designer of the component throws up a red flag and it's ignored, that is going to come back and haunt Remington in any litigation.

They fail and with enough frequency to merit myriad threads like this and an entire cottage industry for those three parts specifically. The brazed on bolt handle is a poor and cost cutting design, as it the thin, sheet metal extractor and the safety? even by Remington's own admission. Buy and shoot what you want, but the facts are there.

I will say that I can understand the cost cutting measures such as the cheap extractor clip, however, it wasn't like Remington had a lot of options when they decided to make the 700 one of the safest designs in the bolt face by having no extractor cuts in the bolt nose, the old "three rings of steel". I think very few would agrue that the uninteruped bolt face lends itself to one of the safest bolt designs ever. Heck, many argue that the Sako extractor design compromises this safety design, and I agree. Many feel, and so do I, that in the unlikely event of case rupture, due to guys hotroding loads, there are very few others that offer the level of safety offered by the Remington 700 design.

Regarding the brazed on bolt handles, I don't doubt that some have fallen off. But again, with something like over 5 million sold, and the relatively few reports we've heard of (largely impart of our .com friend's sounding boards, I think anyone could say this is a uncommon occurance. Heck, take the article written by John Barsness several years ago in Rifle magazine, and he all but stated that there was very very little concern for this and the same applied to the extractor reports. Heck, I had 2 700's that I converted to the Sako extracor design, and if I had to do it over, I quite simply would pass on that "upgrade" even though it does work better (when propely installed).

When I first started here, at the Campfire, I was starting to believe that Swarovski bino's did have a "reputation for fogging" but after seeing that fact that it appeared to have been reported by Barsness who was apparently repeating a story by his friend Phil Shoemaker, it became pretty clear that the "reputation" was little more than Eremicus repeating this incident many hundred's of times over and over. In fact, Mr. Shoemaker now uses Swaro EL's so what does that tell you and everyone else. I doubt Phil would have dropped the coin if it were if fact problematic. Add to that, Eremicus's distain for Swaro and we have another non-starter.

In closing, our good friend here, Matt William's has made quite a good living, by, making a more reliable extractor (to replace the cheap one), one piece trigger bottom metal units and there are companies that make replacement trigger assembly's as well. If I'm not mistaken, Williams also makes replacement magazine followers, but in fairness I'm not aware why that is done. If the Mod 70 were such a QC'ed feeding machine, they wouldn't need gentlemen like D'Arcy Echols, Mark Penrod and other talented metalsmith's performing 80+ plus separate machining operations to make them field ready.

RD: All very valid points, however, Weatherbys for example are every bit as strong as Remingtons yet their extractors are much more robust. As to the aftermarket for Winchester parts, a very valid point to be sure, but those in my view are upgrades to improve the product(steel for aluminum bottom metal, spring steel extractor replaces the cast one, etc) and not nessesarily to replace high failure parts and lastly, given the hatred the media has for our sport, one would think that even Winchester would have been in the cross-hairs of hit pieces like the one that started this whole thread, but the Model 70 trigger and safety, well they are in my view far superior to Remingtons and therein lies the difference. Cheers, jorge

Some good points. However to imply that it is necessary for Echols and Penrod to make 80 machining operations to make a Model 70 field ready is stretching things more than a little. They cater to a select group of customers who are far from representative of Model 70 users.

As far as Mr. Shoemaker goes as recently as 10-09 he made this statement.


Not sure what he is using today, but he has also commented favorably on Leica binos and Leupold spotting scopes.

Had a pair of Zwaros that an objective lens popped. When I told the representative they had been in the cargo hold of an airplane, she immediately said to send them in. Since the majority of Mr. Shoemakers hunters probably fly commercial to hunt, perhaps this was the problems source. This was in 2007 and I'm sure any problems they had back then have been addressed or evaluated.

A little off topic with regards to Remingtons current problems.

You're killin' me here Jorge.......

The Chevy small block motor easily has the most aftermarket parts available on the planet, but it's not because of design flaws. Instead, it is the most popular V-8 ever produced, and is emmintently rebuildable and hot-roddable.

There are more M700/721/722's sold than any other two bolt actions in North America, possibly the planet. Of course there are going to be more complaints--especially in our current culture.

The current Remington triggers debates seem to make no distinction between potential design flaws vs poor manufacturing tolerances--but I ain't saying either one is the case.

I use ladders a lot--I prefer Werners. Werners are also the most popular ladder sold in North America for the last 40 years.

There is an entire website devoted to those "dangerous" Werner ladders--primarily by people who were stupid enough to fall off of one................


Casey

Sitka,
My opinion of your and ilk's past BS treatment of others has not changed. We can dredge up past posts if you like and see who is the offensive one. As for my "feelers", I have always been rather sure I am not the one who has needed to put others down all the time. Also, BTW, I'm told that I'm not all that tough to look at, happily, by women folk, and for the last 20 years, my wife.
Quote:
"Browning's A-Bolt is the same. Just had to make darn sure you had the bbl. in a safe direction when taking it off safe to unload."
On mine, you can lift the bolt handle and decock the action before releasing the safety. I don't claim the A-bolt to be the finest "be all to end all" firearm, far from it. I haven't yet met such a thing. The trigger is a bit sketchy for rough and dirty harsh conditions. I accept that.

I still would likely buy a Model 7 if Remington would build one in a lefty version. A Winchester or Ruger compact, light weight would be better yet.

Wow, get a life, dude.

How many of these incidents that we are discussing do you think are related to improperly adjusted triggers and poor safety handling practices. As far as Mr. Shoemaker is concerned, I only bought this up to illustrate how the internet can magnify incidents. Not even a year ago, Shoemaker did a report on bino's and again it was only to illustrate my point about the internet. If he were in fact concerned about fogging, as Eremicus so childishly points out at every mention of the mere word Swarovski, I seriously doubt Mr. Shoemaker is a thrill seeker or needed yet one more chance to find out at 2 grand a pop.

You have to realize that for an injury to occur two things must happen, minimum... Safety rules have to be violated AND there must be a mechanical failure at the same time.

The safety issues on rifles involved in injuries have not been repeatable, so that adds a third dimension. Any trouble-shooting scheme will tell you critical error multiplication is unusual. When your scenario starts adding multiple levels of complexity it loses its probability rapidly.

Going back to the simple safety rule violation point... Somebody that has obviously broken one rule claiming they did/could/would not violate safety rules has a problem.

Yep. Can't think of a single AD incident, where anyone came out on the short end, when basic safety rules were followed.

And around me, they're either followed religiously, or someone needs to vacate the area, the sooner the better. Can still recall my father's first tutorial on gun safety and it was pronounced over 55 years ago:

"Don't ever point this sumbitch at anything ya don't want to kill." Still working well after all this time, passed it on to my son, when he was 4.

Mule Deer: My extensive experience duplicates yours - I have been Hunting Big Game and Varmints with and shooting at the range with Remington bolt action Rifles for ever!
Your quote - "Personally, I have shot at least 100,000 rounds through Remington 700's, and maybe twice that. I've also watched other people shoot at least 100,000 rounds through 700's. Never have seen a discharge other than when I pulled the trigger--though I did see somebody else's 700 "cook off" a round when the barrel got extremely hot during a prairie dog hunt".
I have been using Remington bolt action Rifles for more than 50 years now (started when I was 13!) and I am still awaiting my first "mystery" accidental discharge!
Puzzling to me as I use my Remingtons A LOT!
Do I care for my Rifles better than the average Joe?
Yes!
Do I handle my Rifles safer than the average Joe?
Yes!
Do I know exactly how to adjust a Remington trigger?
Yes?
Have I fired over 200,000 rounds through my various Remingtons?
Yes!
Do I currently own and shoot 43 Remington bolt action Rifles?
Yes!
Have I owned over 100 additional Remington bolt action Rifles in the past?
Yes! WAY over 100 additional Remington bolt action Rifles!
And have I still, as yet, to see a Remington bolt action trigger/safety fail?
Yes!
There was a highly publicized accidental death involving a Remington bolt action Rifle near my home here in SW Montana several years ago.
Tragically a mother was unloading her Remington bolt action Rifle when it "discharged" killing her son - the grieving parents then blamed Remington.
The lawyers for Remington, the lawyers for the parents, the parents and the County Sheriff all went to retrieve the Rifle from the evidence room and test it.
NONE of the people in attendance at that filmed event could make the Rifle discharge "accidentally" - this event was long of duration and again was filmed!
Again - NONE of the many particpants could make THAT Rifle "accidentally" discharge!!!
I feel that the many forms of Remington bolt action Rifles triggers/safeties are safe - otherwise "I" would not use them.
Someone else in this thread mentioned that a possible "motive" for this re-hash of this "situation" is simply an attack on firearms and firearms manufacurers - I would agree with that.
ANYONE that believes or trusts ANYTHING that messnbc burps up is a stark raving mad, idiot!
PERIOD!
I trust MY experiences both personal and professional regarding the Remington bolt action Rifle triggers/safeties 1,000,000 (one million) times more than any ambulance chaser, anti-gun, anti-Second Amendment propogandist from messnbc!
PERIOD!
For gawd sakes I have allowed all three of the VarmintSons to own and Hunt with Remington bolt action Rifles - what more sincere form of trustworthiness can I partake of???
This re-hash of baseless crap is just that - baseless crap.
Humans ARE prone to error and mistake - IF humans would simply keep their Rifle muzzles pointed in a safe direction then that would eradicate the tragic results that any other mistake they may commit could cause!
Long live Big Green!
Having said these things I must add - NO mechanical device is perfectly impervious to failure - keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction!
Never point your muzzle at anything you do not intend to shoot.
And this, Mule Deer, the Remington Model 700 ALONE has sold more than 6,000,000 (six million) units!
That does not count all the other models with similar triggers/safeties like the Model 721's, Model 722's, Model 40X's, Model XR-100's etc etc etc.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy