Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire I am leaning to the Non-resistive position

So you're a retired LEO too. Small world. I never had to use my weapon either, but like you I thought it was getting close a few times. Good post. The commandment speaks of murder, not defense of innocent life. Good post shootist.

Blaine-

I thank God we have people like you serving our country.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

Shootist,

I don't know, I think maybe you misinterpreted what Jesus wants us to do in the area of non-resistance. Sure, Christians are taught to obey the powers that be, but only if it is in line with God's word. I really don't think the Bible leaves any room for a Christian to use violence in any situation.

Oops! Gotta' go. Lunch! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is a big difference, both idealogically and legally, in taking up the sword on your own or being a part of the government to do this. God obviously has ordained governments, and that they should wield the sword. This is said in both the old and new Testaments. The question you have then, as I understand it, is whether a Christian should be a part of the government, either politically or militariuly. There are two extremes to this question.

One is, quite simply, the idea of fighting for truth, or the might makes right idea. You sometimes hear people say, and not all of them are kidding,"Kill them all. Let God sort them out." Obviously, this leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to mercy and love, but there are examples of this by God's command in the Old Testament. If God took this approach with us very often we would be in serious trouble.

The other extreme is the pacifist idealogy. This view holds that a Christian should do no intentional harm to any human being, even in self defence. They would die, even let their children be slaughtered before they would physically harm someone else. There are specific examples of this view as well. Certainly we can see this in the actions of Christ before Pilate.

Most of us obviosly fall in the middle somewhere, but that doesn't help you with your question.

Biblically, I think it safe to say that God has told us many times that if there is a cause for war we should not shirk from it, call it duty, need, whatever. We are not judging others, in fact, in these cases, God has already judged them. This is the example of Israel in times long gone and today. You must stand for what is right or evil will win. An example is the Nazi movement. It has been said that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. There is a famous quote from WW2 Germany from a clergyman. He said (and this isn't a direct quote) that when they came for the Jews he didn't do anything because he was not a Jew. When they came for the Catholics he didn't do anything because he wasn't a Catholic. And when they came for him there was no one else to help. Good men stood and did nothing, and millions died because of it.

Make no mistake. Satan hates man and would kill all of us if he could. If good men and women stand back and do nothing, he succeeds far more than he should.

Then you have the argument for freedom. Without freedom the message of the cross could not reach millions, even billions that it does with it. America has freed more people than all the countries of history combined. The result has been a freedom to spread the gospel that has been unparalleled through out history.

Certainly there are many many cases where people are expected to defend their families. There is a law written on our hearts and that is sure a part of it. Most parents would die defending their children.

But when shouldn't we? I believe the examples are clear. When we are being accused of being a Christian. When we are persecuted for our faith, when it is us, and no other, then we are told to stand, and turn the other cheek. That, however, does not include our children. If someone were to threaten you for you faith, that is one thing. But to threaten your family, even for something you have done for Christ, that is another. You cannot stand by and allow evil to take your family while you do nothing.

An example would be if you were in a predominently Muslem country and were being persecuted for your faith. Do you take up the sword to defend yourself, or suffer for Christ's sake? If it was just you, and truly because you were a faithful Christian, the answer might be to stand and suffer for His sake. How hard would that be to do? May God bless those who have to make this choice.

But, if a gang of Muslem extremists came tearing through your neighborhood to kill, rape, and murder people, men, women and children that they just thought were Christians out of hate, that would be another thing. The parent who would not defend their children would, I feel, be worse than an infedel. Would they be hinding behind their faith? Would they just be being a coward? I wouldn't care, they would just be wrong.

So now we come full circle. Today we see the results of Christians who feel that they shouldn't be involved in politics and decision making in our government. Judges who do not respect life, abortion on demand, Christians arrested for preaching the gospel. Evil triumphs while good men do nothing. Armies need Christian leaders, as do countries, towns, counties and school boards.

I hope this helps you with your question.

The figures don't bear this out shootist. Violent crime is going down (unless you consider abortion a violent crime, which I do). Crime involving character, that is going up. Crime and circumstances involving morals is sky rocketing. We have only ourselves to blame.

I'd like to know if the statistics that the Shootist and Sanlen allude to are national or international. I doubt there are any reliable stats internationally but perusing the posts brought that question to my mind. When I consider issues I tend to apply my American mindset and biases. When I hear of folks discussing crime and violence, I tend to restrict my concern to the USA. My sense of things is that, particularly given the rise of Muslim extremism is the world today, violence is skyrocketing. How many countries in Asia, South America, Africa, the Middle East and even Europe would you dissuade your loved ones from traveling in? Many folks from those areas would likely be just as concerned traveling to some US cities. Things they are a changin'!

I'll say this, if you can become non-violent today, either you have questionable timing or you heard from God.

RickyD,

I am not a violent man. I love people. I don't trust them much, but I love 'em. They're a mess, but so am I. I do not go looking for a fight. I hate fighting! I might get hurt. I'd sooner talk for an hour that fight for a minute. (Of course I have developed huge jaw muscles, and the rest of my body has atrophied. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

You sure have a point when it comes to the spread of Islam. Some of those folks are peaceful, but . . . . some of them fly airplanes into buildings. How many people did they murder? Where is that crime stat? Each person that died in NY that day is a separate victim. That was not an act of war, BTW.

Domestic violence is on the rise, at least here in Canada. Date rape is on the rise - at least here in Canada. Gang wars are on the rise - at least here in Canada. And Canadians are said to be peaceful, non-violent people. Hmmmm!

I live in an area that has the highest per capita murder rate in the country, and it is NOT going down. Good thing we don't have a lot of people. They'd be dropping like flies. And that doesn't count the stabbings, beatings with clubs and the putting the boots to people stats.

I was a police officer for 11 years when I trusted Christ as my Saviour. I wanted to leave and go to Bible college, but the Lord said, "No." I stayed. My Bible became another piece of equipment for my job. I can't tell you how many people got the gospel as an alternative to wife beating. You've heard of cops that threw the book at people? I literally did.

I have seen grown men cry like babies when faced with the love that God had for their worthless souls, knowing what kind of a mess they really were - drunken, fornicating dope heads. I've seen families put back together by peaceful methods. I advocate peaceful methods.

Sometimes, you gotta weigh in with a different method. I stayed because God told me to stay. He wanted this Christian toting a gun - AND a Bible. I praise him I never had to kill anyone, but if I had to . . . . . it would have been something to have to live the rest of my life with.

Basically, I came to the place where I decided that the other guy would decide what level of force I used. If he listened to reason - he got reason. If he tried to kill me or one of my colleagues, or the people I swore toprotect, he got something stronger than reason. I have no regrets.

I love the Lord. It's a blessing to be able to be in service full time for him. If someone tried to mess with my family, the old junkyard dog would rear his ugly head, and the weapons of our warfare would get carnal in a hurry!

You want to know if the crime statistics are national or international? Watch the international news. Wouldn't it be nice if you'd hear this on Fox News?

Dateline Detroit! 200 gang members surrendered to Jesus Christ this morning in an evangelistic campaign by the Detroit Police. Hardened drug dealers and thugs repented of their sin, and trusted Jesus Christ as Saviour. The mayor of Detroit told this reporter this happens every day in downtown Detroit/Washington/Chicago with stunning regularity.(you pick a city.)

I'll take persecution for the cause of Christ, because the Bible says I am supposed to do it happily. Otherwise, probably not.

Praise the Name of Jesus!!! There's some Holy Ghost Power in action that deserves a fair bit of shoutin'! Bet I'll see that on CNN about the time I win the lottery. Oh, yeah, I don't buy lottery tickets. Still a safe bet! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sanlen,



I understand your point, but can't honestly agree with you. I do not have a wife and children of my own, but I do love my family dearly and would die for them. But, by the Grace of God, I would not die fighting. This may sound terrible to you, but, in order to be truly non-resistant - from what I understand of Jesus' teachings - I need to trust God completely with my family's safety and not fight for it myself. After all, what more thorough trust and faith can one have in God than the safety of loved ones? To me - if God sees fit to put me through that situation - the greatest test of my commitment to Christ would be to trust in His perfect and infinite goodness and love for me and all whom I love... and not fight for my family's safety. The only option open to me in the above situation (from my own understanding of scripture) would be to offer myself in stead of my family. I cannot say with certainty that I would not be made to stumble in my convictions, should this situation ever arise (oh God, let it never be!). I can, however, boast in the fact that my Saviour, Jesus Christ, will give me HIS strength in my weakness and HIS wisdom in my ignorance. I will praise His Name forever, for He has been, and will continue to be, exceedingly good to all those I love.



For one who does not love his family, I can see where he might "hide behind his faith" as an incredibly wicked and hypocritical facade for getting rid of his family. But for someone to have such faith in God's good will toward us that he is able, by the Holy Spirit's power, to obey God's command at the loss of everything else he holds dear, is to me the ultimate testimony of faith in God that anyone can ever have.

You don't have a wife and family? I'm sorry for you. It will likely change your opinion on things. Jesus Christ loved his bride so much, he died for her. When he comes back, there will be some killin' going on!

If you ever want a wife and family, learn to love someone enough to stand up and take it and give it for them. My wife knows I love her enough to go the limit for her and the girls. That's what love is.

Until you get a wife and family, you can have an opinion, but it don't count for much. It's theoretical, at best. Kinda like a vegetarian who lives in the middle of a garden. He can preach about the evils of eating meat until the cows come home. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But when he gets moved to the corral, and the garden dries up, and all there is to eat is meat, let's see if his tune changes, and t-bones might get to soundin' mighty tasty.

AMEN to that.

Jerry

Yes, I see what you're saying. I would say the analogy of the vegetarian is not really acurate, because the Bible speaks against those who forbid eating meat, but it is just an analogy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that my idealism will be harder to realize when I have my own family, but I also know that according to what I believe from the Bible my belief is not likely to change after I get married.

I am not the only one who takes non-resistance to the level I was speaking of earlier. My dad also takes this position. Also, conservative Mennonites and Anabaptists the world over have taken this position. And though some have lost their families because of this belief, I would be grieved beyond words if anyone was to be so hardhearted as to say that these people didn't really love their families. They loved everyone. THEY DIED FOR PEOPLE WHO HATED THEM!! God forbid that we should say that they did not care for their families! They did care. That's why they were willing to trust God with even the lives of their precious loved ones. Because they knew that HE was the one that loved them most. They knew that God would not let ANYTHING happen to them that was outside of His perfect will.

It seems to me that God reserves the right for violence only for Himself. I can't explain why God commanded the Israelites to make war with other countries and then tells us to do everything that is in our power to be at peace with our enemies. Except for the fact that we have a new law now. Instead of a law that involves physical war, we now have a law that involves 100% spiritual war. Sure, we "live" in the physical world, but our true source of LIFE comes from our spiritual relationship with GOD. And that's also where all of the Christian's battles are fought, in the spiritual realm. Instead of the Old Testament law, we now have the law of love.

Also, no offense, but I pray earnestly that I will NOT change simply because I "now have a family"! However, if God shows me through His Word that I am mistaken about something, I pray that I will readily embrace the truth.

inhissteps,



I hope so and actually believe from some of your post you would. Years ago I had some predjudices that the Lord worked on through others. When someone loved me enough to confront me, it was like a breath of freash air when one gets out of the city.

Realize I accept you as you are and mean you no disrespect. I disagree with your view, but that is it. I think you have a wrong view; I do NOT think ill of you as a Christian. In fact, I think rather highly of you based on your posts here.

The level of non-resitance you are advocating is not the norm in evangelical thinking. The list of learned scholars who are solid men of God and disagree with your view is very long. The list of those in support of your position is thin.

I can cleary see you are doing your best to follow Him no matter what the cost and that is the important thing. These differing views on such issues are "qweep" in comparison. However, you should realize the position you hold is very common among young Christians and they often grow out of it.

I place a lot of trust in the men God has called to dilligently study these things. While I am very willing to disagree, I carefully consider the views of mainstream evangelical scholars and tend to lean toward their views. I don't know if you have ever been exposed to the level of thinking, study, prayer, and devotion that takes place in an evangelical seminary, but suffice it to say few of us have stepped-up to that level. If we disagree on the majority views, we need to have accomplished an incredible amout of study, thought, and prayer to hold to that disagreement.



Your statement reminds me of an old joke.

A major flood has hit, and the house of a Godly man is 3/4 of the way under water. The man is sitting on the roof. A boat comes by and the rescuers yell out "Come on, get in the boat". The man replies "No thanks, I am trusting God to save me". A couple hours later the water is at the roof-line and another boat comes by. Rescuers again yell out "Come on, get in the boat". The man again replies "No thanks, I am trusting God to save me".

A couple more hours pass and the water is now over the roof, and than man is standing in waist deep water. This time a helicopter comes by, and the crew shouts out: "Come on, climb up the ladder". The man still refuses, saying he is trusting God to save him. Finally, the water completely envelops the man and he drowns.

When he gets to Heaven he asks the Lord: "Father, I have trusted you all my life and I trusted you to save me form the flood, but you didn't" . To which God replied "What do you mean! I sent two boats and a helicopter." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The skills, abilities, and cognitive process we posses come from God. When an aspirin relieves a headache, it is because God allowed us to gain that knowledge to make and use the aspirin. Whether the headache goes away because of an aspirin or if it just magically disappears, it is still from God.

My point is if God has given you the knowledge, skills, and understanding to protect your family and you don't, you are being disobedient to Him. We need to do ALL the good we know to do, so you would be comitting a sin of omission by letting terrorists kill your family if it is in your power to stop it.

Now, I am not talking about acting out of bravado or seeking vengence. Jesus did tell us to turn the other cheek, which illustrates the principal of being forgiving, attempting to resolve the conflict at the lowest level, and being slow to anger.

However, Jesus did not command us to avoid violence at all costs. When the soldiers were saved, he did not tell them to quit being soldiers, he told them to be good soldiers. He also said that he came not to bring peace but to bring a sword. Finally, what good does it to show the greatest love by giving your life for another if the other is killed as well?

Having said all that, I trust that you will make the right decision if that terrible time ever comes. I do not presume to tell you how to act. God may say resist or He may say be passive. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways declares the Lord." Isa 55:8.

The one thing I ask you to do is NOT limit God by deciding now how you will act then. Trust HIM to lead you in the right way if the time ever comes........

The problem is that many of the events you mention aren't included as crime stats. The stats I mention are FBI stats, and are US. I agree that you would think that violent crime would be up, but everything I can find says no. I also would like to see one that included things such as abortion, uthenasia (spelling?), and other mercy "killings". That certainly counts as violence in my book.

Ringman,

Oh the blessing of having a brother who cares enough about his brother to rebuke him in love when he is wrong!

God is so GOOD to provide us with a family that can do this for us!

I think your idea is short sighted. If all the people of the world felt that way we wouldn't have problems, but if one person didn't we would have conflict. Evil people do not act that way. If all people listened to the spirit's calling we wouldn't have violence at all, but they do not. I repeat that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

While it is true that you would go to a better place, and your troubles would be over, assuming your sins are covered by the blood, what about society, civilization, and all the generations that are left? You say that you feel you should trust God, but more often than not that means you are trusting God to send someone who is not adverse to standing for what is right to save your worthless butt.

History is full of examples of those who held to such ideas. For every success you can count multiple times as many failures. Was it because they did not have faith? Was it because it was just their time to die? Or was it because they would not follow Christ's example of running the wicked out of the temple physically? Christ was meek, but remember the Biblical definition of meek is power under control. Moses was the meekest man alive, but he acted as God led to rid Israel with a sword of those who would not follow God. Meek does not mean a bambified wimp.

I know I'm being pretty vague here (yeah, right), so let me just come out and say it. I have little use for cowards. I do not consider those who stand in the face of personal persecution because of their faith a coward, but those who will not defend the helpless, those who will stand by and do nothing while the innocent are murdered, those who will not speak up for those who cannot defend theirselves, they are worse that infedels to me. I believe God says the same thing.

Sanlen,

Your last paragraph could be used to descibe liberals in general; or some of the European nations for that matter.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

Blaine,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even though I disagree with you, I do respect you as a person, a christian, and my elder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Yes, that is rather ridiculous, isn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I'm afraid I disagree with you on that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You said that Jesus did not command us to avoid violence at all costs. Didn't He?

38 "You have heard that it was said, �An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.�
39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 "And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 � "You have heard that it was said, �You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.�
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matt. 5:38-45)

I guess I don't really see a place in the Bible where we are told "don't resist an evil person... unless he tries to get at your family." Jesus said He came to bring a sword, but my understanding, from looking at the context of that verse, is that it is a sword of division (son against father, daughter against mother, etc.). In another place, the Bible is described as "living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Heb. 4:12)

Also, when Peter tried to take up the sword Jesus said, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."(Matt. 26:52)

In another place Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."(John 18:36)

3 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,"(2 Corinthians 10:13)

I just don't see any clause anywhere for physical violence under any circumstance. Maybe I'm seeing it all wrong; but, to be honest, I really don't think so.