Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Comments re: Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor

I never Met Keith personally but I knew O,Connor quite well. Jack once told me that Elmer Keith had more hot air in him than a balloon. I never bothered to read Keith's stories after reading the first.It was clear to me that his stories were mostly fake. I mean come on, a small black bear is 17 hit times with a 270 and runs into the next county where he's finally finished off with 2 shots from a 450 Westley Richards? Elmer Keith's writings are sort of like WWF wrestling. Jack's writings were the real thing and Jack was the real thing. In one of Jack's conversation's with a friend he said and I quote, ( Who will ever replace me?) Answer, NO ONE.

INCOMING!!!!

Oddly enough it was clear to me that his stories were precisely as Mr. Keith saw them - and he had good eyes.

Although of a younger generation (though today over 65 and retired myself) and I never more than met Mr. Keith I have enough connection with folks in Salmon to have heard stories I believe to be true that are repeated simply because the story portrays Mr. Keith as very human particularly in a law enforcement role.

But equally whatever faults and flaws the man had - and I do believe it improved his character no end to become a grand old man - let me go on record as saying that I have never heard anybody, even in the midst of mentioning a personal disagreement, suggest that anything at all about Mr. Keith was fake.

I think Jack O'Connor was equally inclined to be as accurate as he could be knowing that his audience included folks of all sorts and the only knock on Mr. O'Connor that I might sustain was that like say some Hollywood stars Mr. O'Connor maybe believed that being a world class expert in one thing meant his opinion on say the schools should be given extra weight and used langauge to emphasize that point beyond all reason.

Finally in lessons learned from these and other gun writers I must say that the emphasis on equipment over skills in their writings teaches the wrong lesson.

Mr. Barsness tells of another fine fine writer with a touch of the poet who with 10 gauge really could kill geese at 75 yards reliably. If I ever so much as contemplate taking a 75 yard shot at geese with a 10 gauge and red dot sight I hope my family recognizes that I'm ripe for commitment.

I'll do much better hunting Idaho generally with something like Bob Hagel's .340 Weatherby than with a .270 Winchester but climbing with say a NULA in .270 Winchester. I've seen times I could have killed an elk for the books with the .22 rimfire magnum in a High Standard derringer we used for casual slaughter and such but (family property familiar terrain from above put one in the skull between ear and eye) but writing it up - I passed on the shot because like Vance Bourjailly I took no pleasure in harvesting family members but the sheds are in the room next to me and would be a trophy - would prove nothing about adequate elk cartridges - and as the saying goes: don't tell Elmer but in some of the lower terrain - in the pines in the pines where the sun never shines - Elmer was absolutely right.

Unless Jack O. was hauling you around on a leash, you have no idea if he was the "Real Thing".
As far as a replacement, Carmichael, his replacement, has more firearm knowlege in his little finger.

I'm sure Carmichael is very knowlegable but he also has zero personality, and I'm speaking from experience.
To compare Carmichael to O,Connor is like comparing A fresh T bone steak to last week's haddock dinner

I've found that the only ones who criticize Jack O,Connor never met him. Quite frankly when I hear someone say that O,Connor didn't know anything I cannot help but feel that I'm listening to a total idiot.If there was ever a down to earth guy who called the shots where they landed it was Jack.I knew Jack for many years and visited him on many times, I also ended up buying 5 rifles from him including Eleanor's 30/06. The Jack O.Connor I knew was a straightforward guy who had little tolerance for BS.I began reading O,Connor as a teenager and grew up with him. His writings intrigued me from the very beginning. Even now I never read any other writers articles but instead read Jack's old stories over and over although by now I know every word.

Surely you jest!
Let's not forget Carmichael retired from OL, O'Connor was tossed out like last weeks haddock dinner.
And yes, I do enjoy reading O'Conner, But the list of better writers with vastly more experience is long.

Please enlighten me on who these writers are? Vastly more experience hunting what game? I'll give Boddington the nod on African game, but no writer I know of today has even half of JOC's experience on wild sheep or most other western big game. One's opinion of how well a guy writes is just that, and for some I'm sure neither of these two top the list.

I think most here are in agreement that O'Connor was a very gifted writer, that isn't my disagreement here. He was one of the top sheep hunters of all time.
You met O'Connor but never met Elmer Keith, have you ever heard of anyone who seen him shoot that said he couldn't! He shot in competition for decades. Ross Seyfried was a handgun world champion & he made the statement that Keith was the best he had ever seen with all 3 guns, rifle, shotgun & sixgun, if you've ever read anything about Ross Seyfried you'll know he does not BS, ever!
My biggest gripe with O'Connor was that he was very much into himself, your statement that he mentioned to someone else...who is going to replace me....now that speaks volumes!!

Dick

We heard you the first itme

Les Bowman had "far" more experience on western game hunting and harvasting of said game. If you don't believe me, O'Conner admited as much in "The Hunting Rifle". Of course he really had no choice.

Sir you are a fortunate man to have known the O'Connors and to have some of their rifles. I loved that man's writings from the age of about 8 and at 62 I still read his books over and over. I think that Mr. O'Connor may have had little tolerance for some people or things but that never took away my admiration for him. The only writer I think that compares today is our own John Barsness and I enjoy all of his writings very much. I gave up on Rifle magazine when John left. Thanks...

I never had the good fortune to meet Elmer Keith, but I did have occasion to write him. When I came to Alaska in 1950, he responded to my questions without impatience or condescension. No one wrote like Keith, but I found his letters to be helpful, interesting, and much like having a chat with a friend. This was always the case. In his last letter, shortly before his illness, he stated that he was 82 years young. Others may fault him, but for me, he will always be one I admired.

In one of Jack's conversation's with a friend he said and I quote, ( Who will ever replace me?) Answer, NO ONE.

That threw me for a loop.

Were you a friend to J.C.?

comparing Jack O,Connor to the writers today is like comparing today's film starts to those of yesteryear. To me the current gun writers seem like a Brad Pitt while O,connor is more like a Henry Fonda or a Gregory Peck.The older film starts had more class just as the older cars were more classic than the all look-a likes today. I do not disagree that some of the current writers are perhaps more knowledgeable than Old Jack was, but I have yet to read an article by any of them that held my interest the way Jack,s writings did and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Another example is chess. Today Boris Spassky is ranked 104 in the world. mention the name Spassky to 100 people on the street and 90 of them will respond, " oh yes, the chess champion" Mention the name Kasparov or Kramnik and you would probably get the same response from 2 or 3 even though they are the two highest rated players on the globe. So yes, when O,connor said, who will they get to replace me he wasn't being arrogant, he was right on target. I just wish I could relive those wonderful trips from Toronto to his home in Lewiston Idaho. Every day I got closer my anticipation of another meeting with him grew. On my last visit he offered to sell me his 270-70 for $ 1.500.00. I didn't have the scratch on me and told him that I would probably get it on the next trip. Anyway, my friend Henry Kaufman ended up getting it and I have been kicking myself in the butt ever since.
Alex Schimek.

Yes, I knew him quite well

Like most of the other old farts here I too grew up reading both of those guys and as a kid took most of what they said to heart. They both brought something to the party.

In my adult years I developed a fondness for the written word and my "heroes" became those who could express their thoughts in an elegant manner. Re-reading the old tales by both Kieth and O'Connor left me with the distinct feeling that someone was sprucing up Elmer's writing in order to make it readable. I have since been led to believe that was indeed the case. While both spun a good tale, and disseminated equally useful information, I now lean toward O'Connor for nostalgic reading simply for his command of the English language. I feel that all other things being equal that is the deciding factor when analyzing a person who makes a living with the pen.

Speaking of Les Bowman, Google him and a page pops up aurthered by his granddaughter that tells about how he and his wife were pioneering aviators, ran flight schools during WWII, and did other amazing things besides run a ranch and guide hunters. A really great read!

I find that most new chums are hungry for technical knoweldge with fact based opinion attached to it. When they ask a question, they really want to learn and know what you think, or they wouldn't ask the question.

I never heard of Jo'C until a year after his death when Guns & Ammo put out a special publication and yet I enjoyed it.

Elmer was featuerd in G&A mags for some years before his death and I read that with interest but being an Aussie where we put absolutely no-one on a pedestal, (cultural advantage sometimes) it was easy to see that Elmer had the same failings as most old time writers in that they condemned cartridges because of bullet failure.

Reading his work was akin to reading sports car magazines because he used high performance cartridges which was always interesting.

Personnally, my opinion is that JB, whom I have never met and never heard of until I came ont the fire, is the best writer since Hagel and has a knack for splicing opinion with findings when he writes, so that even someone like myself with 48 years firearms experience can still learn and is happy to do so.

We have the best of times now, because we can both reflect on what was, and enjoy what is here now. That is a tremendous library of knowledge.

JW

Did he show you all the record book critters he killed ? Must have been a lot since he got to go to all those good hunting places on somebody else's dime .