Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats P.O. Ackley and the Wildcat Game

Mr Howell,
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<br> It is a pity that you print misinformation about the 06 AI. You are indirectly labeling Chris of Pac-Nor, Nosler Bullet Co and a host of others a bunch of liars! Explain the data on the 06AI in Nosler#4 which does not correspond to yours. What is your motive for this misinformation? I don't recall seeing many dies for sale with the name Howell on them. Nor do I see any Howell wildcat listings in the load manuals. That Howell wildcat brass sure is expensive by Bertram brass. Funny it seems every 'smith I talk to has at least one AI reamer in his shop. How many are stocking Howell wildcat reamers? I guess all these Ackley proponents(myself included) are just overloading their improved cartridges to make a point. Mr Howell, you present a most amusing case againest the AI 06, that is a fact, nothing more, nothing less. And nothing gained! Mtn Hunter

Mtn Hunter... the info Ken spoke about were HIS experience, and may no necessarly be yours, or Nosler's or anyone elses! Don't be offended other's may have differing results then other's. He has no motive to deny other's their views, hence ain't making no one out to be a liar. His experience with a given wildcat may not be someone elses, so don't take it personal.
<br>He has plenty of fine wildcats that are more then just fattening up the body for slight returns. The wildcats rom AHR come to mind. You might want to check them out.
<br>www.hunting-rifles.com
<br>~~~Suluuq
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A very important question is, is the 30-06 AI data provided with listed pressure testing? And more importantly, if the -06 base data is at 55 kpsi, and the whelen ackley is at 65 kpsi, where is the speed coming from, case capacity, or pressure?
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<br>From personal experience I'd say most ai performance is gained by folks loading to very high pressures, and figuring they are ok doing so. So, does that make Ken wrong?
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<br>Those that attack Ken seem to do so as a way to justify to themselves their practive of loading to unsafe pressure levels. Ken is their ire, as he reports the truth and folly of that practice, yet the messanger gets it, not the message.

I've been on both sides of the fence and I very much like cartridges to sizzle.
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<br>Pressure is a variable,plain and simple. Capacity is not.
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<br>Some cartridges yield a higher percentage of capacity increase,than others. That due to initial case design.
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<br>Is the 30-06 a sterling example,to punch out Ackley Improved? Not in my opinion. But,hey,that's me. If it lights your fire,twist one up.
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<br>Other examples,lend themselves well,to such a conversion. Rather than pull hair and start the never ending "Pressure Wars". Why not discuss case capacity increase,regarding a specific Manufacture of brass?
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<br>If the percentage of increase,appeals to your senses,then take the plunge. If not,disregard it and stay on the beaten path.
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<br>Pretty simplistic,in my estimation.......................

"Why not discuss case capacity increase,regarding a specific Manufacture of brass? "
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<br>Excellent point, Stick. I don't know which brands of brass he used in each case, but here's a friend's list of the case capacities he compared. The left-hand figure is the over-flow capacity of the factory case, in grains of water required to fill the case until it can't hold any more. The right-hand figure is ditto for the AI version (except for the .35 Brown-Whelen, which also has the shoulder blown forward as well as out).
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<br>.22 Jet -------- 18.5 ----- 20
<br>.22 Savage ------- 35 ----- 41.6
<br>.22-.250 ----- 43.5 ----- 47
<br>.220 Swift ----- 47 ----- 47.3
<br>.243 ----- 54 ----- 56
<br>.244 ----- 55 ----- 62
<br>.250 Savage ----- 45.5 ----- 51
<br>.257 Roberts ----- 56 ----- 63
<br>.25-06 ----- 66 ----- 72
<br>.270 ----- 68 ----- 74
<br>.30-30 -----45 ----- 47
<br>.30-06 ----- 68.2 ----- 69.3
<br>.348 ----- 75.5 ----- 80
<br>.35 Whelen ----- 70.5 ----- 75.5 (Brown-Whelen, not AI)
<br>.375 H&H ----- 95.3 ----- 105

Recent phone conversation with Mic McPherson:
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<br>Mic:" Whenever possible always go the Ackley route"
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<br>Myself: "Why?"
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<br>Mic:"As a tribute to the man, its simply a better mousetrap!"
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<br>Myself: "Thanks Mic!"

Thanks Ken for the information. Most interesting.
<br>Looking at the 30-06 family only the parent does not gain much more powder space.

I get 50.0grs H2O,with my Swift Improved sample.
<br>The 243 Improved yields 57.6grs of H2O.
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<br>The most interesting sample I just weighed,was for my 22-250Ackley's. My Remington 22-250Ackley case,weighed 160.2grs.,when empty. Filled with water,it weighed 211.4grs. That is a 51.2gr capacity,of H2O. I had some W/W cases on hand and their empty weights,were EXACTLY 5grs more than the R/P offering(165.2grs). That very much suprised me............
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It is not unusual to find that two brands of brass for the same cartridge differ as much in capacity as the difference between the standard cartridge and the "improved" version of it.
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<br>A fellow once showed me a product he made, with the initials "ISW" in its designation Those initials clearly didn't stand for his name, so I asked what they stood for. He looked a little sheepish, and his friend laughed -- and explained.
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<br>The fellow had blown the body of a .45-70 out fully cylndrical, to see what difference he'd get in performance. He had very candidly and honestly dubbed it the ".45-70 Improved (Somewhat)." Short form: .45-70 ISW. I called and asked for case dimensions, to put the .45-70 ISW in my book -- but never got any response.

Ken,
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<br>My point exactly. You take the case that offers the most capacity initially and then Improve it. That is a simplistic twofold gain...............

The only meaningful improvement I've seen is substituting (b) the "improved" case that's already more capacious (before being re-formed) for (a) the standard less-capacious case that hasn't been re-formed. A capacity increase of only 3 or 4 grains of water (about 2.6 or 3.4 grains of powder) strikes me as not enough improvement to be worth the time, cost, and exercise.
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<br>IOW, whether you "improve" the brand of case with the lower capacity or the brand with the higher capacity, re-forming is still responsible for only a slight increase in capacity.

The exact numbers are out in my reloading shack somewhere,but I remember that loading my 257 Roberts to max in the hornady book with 100 gr. bullets,then doing the same thing after improving it gave me around the same velocity gain the book showed,though in each instance the actual speed was a little greater.Also,loading the std. Roberts to the point the bolt got sticky was at least 150 fps SLOWER than my regular load in the IMPROVED version.That was with 120 gr bullets as I recall.
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<br>To me,that is worthwhile.

Here's what little I know. My 25-06AI cases,formed from nickle R/P cases,hold 73.6grs of water.
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<br>That is enough capacitiy increase,to lend zero speculation to it's "Improvedness". The extra capacity,allows it to do things I couldn't,with the standard 25-06 chambering. That,despite the AI's "too short" 24" tube.
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<br>I'm ALL ears and am always searching for a "better" way. In the examples I have built,in cartridges I have mentioned,the results obtained from the Improved case designs have made them worthwhile to me.
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<br>Your mileage may vary....................
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Jeez, you guys spend a lot of time and energy calling each other liars don't you?
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<br>I have read the Ackley books, and I enjoyed them. There is a lot of technical info in there, that you are not really going to use often. But I tried out some of his formulas and found them to be pretty accurate (for 1950's era instruments)..
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<br>Most of Ackley's Improvements are moderate shoulder enhancements that give a few percent of increased case volume and perhaps 100-200fps?
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<br>I own a 450 Ackley, and I love it. This is what the 458 was supposed to be, before Winchester screwed up and tried to invent the "short magnum" concept. I have posted previously that I have used this rifle for Elephant and Buffalo, and it's performance is incredible. Lot's of range AND punch.
<br>I poked the Elephant tranversely, from the right hip to the left front shoulder, no problem with a A-Square solid at 2350 fps, I could get more velocity, by why? I don't know what more you could ask for.
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<br>As for the loading data in Ackley's book, DO NOT RELY ON THIS. The accuracy of chronographs, and the QUALITY of powders have changed so much over the years, you should always start with a lighter load and work up. The velocities are attainable, but the correlation with the 1950's published data doesn't line up.
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<br>Personally, with the introduction of newer powders, and the new Hornaday "light mag" type ammunition, I do not see the payoff with the small bores like the 30-06AI any more.. If you like to handload, that's fine (and I do), but you can get that kind of velocity out of the box, without modifying a potentially collectable and valuable firearm and hurting it's value.
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<br>... and someone very correctly mentioned barrel lengths, as in the manner that A-Square used to spec his loads with 26" barrels? Each gun is different of course, but bascially subtract 25-50fps for every inch you barrel is shortened.
<br>My 450 Ackley will get 2350 from a 22" barrel, and I calculate that to be 2400+ from a 24"... more than enough..

That wasn't my take,nor intent of my Posts.
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<br>Often several folks see the same thing,altogether differently. That was my mindset..............

"Liars?"
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<br>No
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<br>Different criteria, different methods, different values = different opinions.
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<br>I, for example, have invested neither positive nor negative emotion into the question. For me, it's solely a question of whether AT THE SAME PEAK PRESSURES, the AI shoulder produces enough improvement in velocity to make the conversion worth while. Others are pleased to find that they can boost velocities enough to make the AI conversion, whatever their unmeasured pressures may be.
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<br>While I'm at it, I should point out a couple of facts that should be obvious to every reader of ol' P O's books --
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<br>P O published a passel of loads that he did not -- could not -- test for even their velocity, let alone their pressures. He published loads that he got from others. This may well be why the load I got from him for my .30-06 AI was so badly excessive even after I'd reduced it by five grains or more.
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<br>In those days, we didn't have as many, as affordable, as accurate chronographs as we have today. Claimed velocities typically had no solid basis. And there was NO way the average handloader could "measure" his loads' pressures with any pretense of accuracy.

Stick,
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<br>Have you ever started with a standard chamber, worked up to max, then have it improved, and work up again?
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<br>Curious, as I haven't done it, but would like to know if anyone has.

223,22-250,(friend's)243,and 375H&H Ackley Improveds. That's what hooked me....................

Dr Howell,
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<br>What would be the best way to determine if one were loading an "Improved" case to the same pressure levels and a "Non-Improved" case in a given cartridge?
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<br>I have a .257 Roberts AI in a Ruger #1 that appears to out perform my .25-06 (std) also in a Ruger #1, both with 24" barrels. The AI rifle, with the same weight bullet (100g BT's) produces 250fps more velocity than the .25-06 using the same bullet. But if I understand some of the comments made here, it would appear that I am loading the AI cartridge to higher pressures, which makes for an unequal comparison.
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<br>I know I'm not comparing apples and apples with these two cartridges, but since I reload for both and I prefer to stay under the max pressures, I'm a little concerned now after reading all these exchanges.
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<br>-Mr Mike

Mr. Mike,
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<br>The objective here is to kill the legend of Parker Ackley. It's the death of a thosand small knives.
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<br>There was a town clerk in Windam, VT who killed over 50 bucks in his lifetime. All legal. He was also the postmaster and the deer check guy. He told me some wonderful stories about Dwight Eisenhower who came up there. I used to bring my deer there to be checked as you could be sure to have a pleasant time with the old guy.
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<br>Years later I asked how he was doing and someone said "oh that old fart, he is pushing a walker around the rest home down in Townsend, I don't think he knows where he is" !
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<br>So there it goes. I suppose someone will spit on my grave.
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<br>Ol Harry shot a rem 721 in .270.