Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire The Pope as Holy Father

I am not a Catholic so those of you who are, please excuse my ignorance. I am bothered by the reference to the Pope as the "Holy Father". Two things bother me. First, he is not my "Father" nor anyone elses, I don't think. Secondly, I thought to be Holy one had to be considered such by God and his Son, Jesus. How did the Catholic Church get to the place of being able to make such designations and how do you feel about it? Are you bothered by such references? Let the flames begin !

Why?

If out of nothing but respect for Campfire members that are Catholic, I'd think the last thing you'd want to do is "let the flames begin" right around the time of the Pope's funeral.

What's the point of starting a flame war at this particular point in time? Or ever?

I'd say it's a time for respect ... to the memory of a truly great man (no matter what your beliefs), for the beliefs of a large number of your fellow Campfire members, and maybe a time to show a bit of discretion.

Maybe I'm just getting crotchety, but I just don't get the point.

Rick

i, also, just as soon would prefer this topic rest for a few days.
it is worth pursuing at some point, if only to satisfy the curiosity of evangelical protestants, of which i am one.
that aside, john paul was, indeed, a fine man.
for what i think is an interesting view of the pope - and the roman catholic church - by an evangelical protestant, check out crosswalk.com

My sincere condolences to all Catholics.

Ditto, Rick, and Amen!

In a thread on another Campfire forum, I posted this �
To whomever this may matter:

Karol Wojtyla was a great man. Karol Wojtyla was a good man. Karol Wojtyla was a man. Karol Wojtyla was, I believe, a terribly deceived man who from the depths of his innocent, honest deception about the Person, the will, the way, the purpose, and the present Body of Christ deceived others just as he'd been deceived.

I admire him. It is my fervent hope that in his last lucid moments, he met the Holy Spirit of God face-to-Face � realized how out-of-sync with the will of God his life and belief had been � and asked the Father to forgive him in the Name of Jesus.

If he did these things � the "work" of only a second or so � today, he is with Jesus at the side of the Father.

Whether he did these last-second course-corrections is infinitely beyond my concern, my guess, my right to judge, my right to opine about.

We who were not so deceived in the same manner as he was are not therefore authorized to judge Karol Wojtyla or any of those who follow his precepts and examples. Whatever may be your view of the Bible and its teachings and warnings, there's a terribly practical warning in the passage that's rendered "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1) In the original, the warning means "don't assume the authority to cast judgement, don't judge others by your own criteria, so that you won't have to be judged according to legitimate criteria."

The infamous theologian Karl Barth published a sizable lot of guff that cast doubt and disbelief, but he was recording a personal journey that eventually led him to acceptance and belief. But his literature had already founded the "theology" of Barthianism. During an intermission at a Christian conference, someone asked Barth how he felt about all the negative criticism that was raining down upon the Barthians. Barth, to the other's surprise, wasn't angry � because, he said, "I'm not a Barthian." Who can guess what Karol Wojtyla was, when at last he stood before the throne?

Of this, at least, I'm certain � we don't reflect any great glory if we unnecessarily question � or call names, or cast negative comments, or invite discord, or display animosity � allegedly in the name of Jesus.

There's no good time for any of this but lots of bad and worse times. Right now is one of the worst times, and this is one of the worst places.

If you don't have anything good to say about Karol Wojtyla ("Pope John Paul II") or Catholics or the Roman Catholic Church or Catholicism, say nothing here, please. This is a proper time to go easy on the feelings of those who are devastated by the loss of a man and leader whom they love, admire, and cherish. Think, for example, how you'd feel if you'd just seen your Beloved die, and now found yourself having to hear and read bitter negative talk about her.

Have a little decent regard for others' feelings � if only for a little while, in case being decent is agony for you.

And if ya gotta flame somebody for something, flame me for this (and address your comments quietly, to a spot just below the sprig of mistletoe hanging from the back of my belt <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ).

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Heavy discussions of religion and politics seem to darken and cast shadows in the area around the campfire

Ken
I have nothing but the greatest respect for you, and therefore, I hope you take this as it is meant -with respect.
You said in your post not to say anything, if it was not good, out of respect, but you couldn't resist a few jabs of your own.
As an 'RC', I KNOW that my religion has some major 'issues'. You can go back 2 thousand years and start there. But I firmly believe it will take me to the same end as any other Christian faith, and yes, it is the first Christian religion.
I drive a 15 yr old Dodge Ramcharger. The springs sag, and it does 0 to 60 in about 2 miles, but it gets me where I'm going, I just have to disregard the negatives, and focus on what it can do. Same goes for my faith.
Just remember if you reply, that I admitted that my religion is not perfect, far from it, but that I also refrained from saying anything negative about yours.
Pope John Paul, Holy Father, rest in peace with the Lord.
joearcher

I wouldn't be a part of a "religion" that couldn't take some pokes and kicks. I kick my denomination regularly, and I can laugh at it as well as the next guy. But my "religion" as you call it does not save me. My faith in what Jesus Christ has done saves me.

Ken,

Not often I agree with you, but I think you showed great constraint in your post and even said some pretty nice things about the man. (which I may not have said)

BTW, not agreeing with you does not make you wrong or me right either! (snicker)

I considered ignoring your reply, but decided that there is no valor in discretion.

I am truly sorry to hear such a lack of respect for your fellow man, and fellow Christians in particular.
You seem bent on belittling any other religion that does not mirror your own narrow-minded views of Christianity.
Your problem sir, is that you refuse to believe you could possibly be wrong.
In your world, it is 'Your way, or the highway'.
I choose the highway.

Ken,

I am facinated that I can't remember disagreeing with one of your post. This makes you and me correct and those who don't agree with you incorrect, doesn't it?

Rick, this graceless show of animosity among men who profess to be Christians has no place here (or anywhere, for that matter).

So I have two suggestions:

� Lock this thread (and any other that later flows down the same gutter).

� Eliminate this forum. It's out of place here. Christ's place at the Campfire should be another respected log, not another cross. (The mean-spiritedness is neither new nor unique to this thread.)



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You obviously did not read the part of my post where I admitted to Mr Howell that he may not be wrong, and I may not be right. (I think that means, in plain english -- he may be right, and I may be wrong.)[which means in plain english, that I just admitted I could be wrong]

Kick my "religion" if you want. I could care less. And I said nothing belittling about your "religion." Mr Howell made a couple comments about a man. Some were very nice. Others were not.

P.S. Joe, there's not much good to say about me apart from Christ in me the hope of glory. (Col 1:27)

This forum was created as a place of Christian fellowship. For a long, strong time, it was just that. But for quite a stretch now, I've seen more division and dividers than anything else.

Ken, you know how much I respect your sage advice. Taken under advisement, sir, and not seeing much fodder with which to argue.

Rick

I don't mind debate on doctrine or talking about differences. But I don't like the nastiness that sometimes rears it's head. We all have to deal with the flesh and many times we lose. On another forum that I go to the Christian thread has become so bad that many don't post anymore. Much worse than what we have here. Maybe all should just sit back a spell, pray, and hopefully things will improve.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

No jab intended. No "my way or the highway" stance or attitude. (My way has often been at odds with His � which has always meant switching to His.)

I believe John 14:6 ("Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me") and Matthew 7:21 ("Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven").

I also believe that the human scope of John 15:13 ("Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends") is severely limited by the qualification specified in the next verse � John 15:14 ("Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I [Jesus] command you").

I do not believe that these clear statements by Jesus have been legitimately superseded by the "authorities" (a) who told the Jews and the Mohammedans that "conversion is not necessary for salvation" and (b) who said that by virtue of Jesus's death "for all mankind," now "we're all forgiven and therefore we're all Christians."

I believe that such "authorities" have been deceived and because of their having been deceived, have (with all the best of honest intentions) been deceiving others. I believe that this view is both fair and charitable. I do not say (or believe) that they were "lying," as it's so popular to label so many disputable statements these days.

I believe that God wants everybody � including these "authorities" � to come to Him on His terms for eternal fellowship with Him. Therefore, totally irrespective of their active deceptions, I want God to have them.

... but on His terms � not mine, yours, theirs, or anybody else's.


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Amen! Well written.

Rick,
When you first proposed this forum I was hesitant to support it fearing issues like this would arise. I have noticed the dislike (read hatred) for Catholics on this so called Christian forum. I know that your heart was in the right place when you created it, but
It has just not worked out. I would not miss it if you get rid of it until some people can learn to live in brotherhood as Christians. tom

please, rick, do not drop this forum. the darts thrown here are no worse, from a courtesy standpoint, than any thrown on the shooting and hunting forums.
the big difference is this: the hunting and shooting issues are not of an eternal nature; the issues on this forum are.
let's keep it, even though dugeon can run high. that is to be expected with such issues.
now, i'll suggest this, if i may: when a thread appears to be drifting towards viciousness, we posters police ourselves by shifting to PMs.
in any case, all of us should pray over it, as i will.

I too, wish that you would keep this forum. I enjoy the "give and take" and the knowledge that is on this board. To those that wish to blast others, just remember, "What you believe is the 'Truth' or you wouldn't believe it" when there is a "problem" with scripture.

Very well put Ken!!!!!

Whelenman