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Siggy32 Offline OP
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So the first photo is in the field. 7 months now. The 2nd is at home with his prized first quail. He bumped a covey , I shot this one, brought him around, hunted dead, pointed the dead bird. I grabbed his collar (to make sure he didn't run off with it) told him ok with touch to back of head. He dove it brought it out & I let him keep it, good boy for 30 secounds. Then said out, he dropped it in my hand. No munching or dog malling. I was a proud dad.

When got home let him have it again, took photos, out & dropped it again in my hand. He is doing well, has a nose but don't think his brain has quite put the scent together with bird. He will just keep digging in grass with his nose until he finally pushes the bird out. Has done so on abuot 4 hen pheasants & 1 rooster. The rooster he was a bad angle, hugged the ground & I was downhill from him, when came up so couldn't shoot.

[Linked Image]


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Sounds like a good solid start with a young dog. All the little details will come together, of course. I must say also, there is something very charming about that mug of his. Handsome dog!

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Siggy32 Offline OP
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Thanks, he is a good looking dog. Good tight coat also. Even family inlaws that don't own dogs, don't hunt think he is cute.

I just need to get him out more, really need some snow cover to be able to see tracks of quail & get him into them, & to hold the pheasants in grass.

The one problem I do have is he doesn't want to load up when you get him back to the truck to go to the next place. He just doesn't want to leave the field, or understand we are going to a new spot. Will figure that out eventually also.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction. - Billy the Kid.

Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
- Benjamin Franklin
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good looking dog ya got there, if he don't point it don't shoot it, its hard not to but when he figures it out you will be better off, u will see when it all comes together the more bird u can get for him the better,,,,,,,,, good luck

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Siggy32 Offline OP
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He didn't point this one but was nose on the ground working along a fence line, got too close & bumped them. So my rule has been he has to be working them (can tell he has his nose on the scent), no shooting wild flushes.

I think he will shortly put it together & point vs. keep folllowing the scent till he bumps. HE is slow when scenting, my previous dog Sig would "run" the scent, till he ran out of scent & come back which bumped them right away, but as he got a little older he learned to slow as the scent got stronger & pointed.

Sig also figured out the cover quickly, knowing plum thickets usually held birds. He would stand look in & then stomp his foot to try to get them to fly. (probably the quick motion more then the stomp) Didn't know how I was going to stop that. Luckily he quickly figured out he didn't get to retrieve them if they just flew away. Raider is figuring the cover out also, thinner grass will run faster, heavier cover slow down & spend more time.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction. - Billy the Kid.

Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Nice looking pup. Wirehair or Drathaar?

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Just love that face!

Ghostman....I thought the name wirehair and drathaar were interchangable. One is english the other german.

In Bob West's descriptions of his dogs he uses the words interchangeably.

"The breeding stock at TREBORWOLF kennel consist of the very finest wirehair specimens, selected from the best Drahthaars that Europe had to offer."

"In addition, the kennel is known for Wirehairs with an above average longevity (12-18 years) and usefulness in the field. The TREBORWOLF strain of Drahthaar is known for dogs which are friendly, and non-combative."




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AZshooter, in my travels I have found that it can be down right insulting to some people to use wirehair and drahthaar interchangeably. Drahthaars have to pass a basic ability and conformation test to be registered as a Deutch Drahthaar. Wirehairs just need the right parents. I may have the details wrong but if there is a drahthaar guy here he can set me right.

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I can tell in you in certain circles calling a Drahthaar a wirehair is fighting words. Bullgoose is correct, these dogs have to pass breed certification testing to be allowed to breed.

They also have to be Hip Displacia free. No missing teeth or duplicates. Good bites, no plier bite, & other rrequirements. As pups they have to have there right ear tatooed before they can leave the kennel.

I can tell you the reason I buy drathaars is due to these testing & requirements. I am sure there are good wirehairs/griffons but I try to stack the deck in my favor knowing the breeding requirements. It works for me- to each his own.

Last edited by Siggy32; 12/11/10.

Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction. - Billy the Kid.

Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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I think the dogs are the same so does Bob West. There are two separate groups the German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
and the Verein Deutsch-Drahthaar/Group North America. Both started with the same dogs from Germany. Funny how the VDD has this sense that their dogs are different to the GWP. I think it is incorrect, so does Bob West. Both groups strive to breed only the best examples of the breed, with no hip issues etc. Only a puppy mill would do otherwise.

Quote from Bob's website:

"Are German Wirehaired Pointers and Deutsch Drahthaars the same breed? This is an honest question asked by the novice dog buyer seeking to learn more about his next hunting breed. The answer is unquestionably � YES. In fact, the word �Deutsch� means �German� and �Draht� means �Wire�; and �haar� means �hair�. Thus, Deutsch Drahthaar is German Wirehair. Nevertheless, an American VDD representative, proclaiming to be an expert, created this mythology about two distinct breeds. It is difficult for some individuals to accept the fact that there is only one breed. Belonging to a particular organization, is not a guarantee that you own a better or a worse dog. VDD dogs tested by NAVHDA have achieved no better or worse scores than their American counterparts. The DNA that flows through their bodies is one in the same. The dogs do not differ in DNA; they are not different breeds. Are there differences between individual dogs? The answer is yes. True difference are usually between breeders and not which organization that you register your dog with. This is where the �Strain� or �Line� plays a significant role when selecting a pup. Eventually, a kennel's reputation is reflective of it�s particular traits."

Entire article: http://www.drahthaars.net/myths.htm


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Siggy32 Offline OP
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What I have read about this issue, both dogs will have the same DNA in reference to the "myth" you talk about them being 2 different breeds.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not possible that 2 AKC wirehair dogs can be bred to produce 2 AKC pedigreed dogs, whether either of them have ever been tested in any fashion? So in this case do you really have any certainty of ablilities?

In my opinion, I know the VDD Drahthaar parents have been held to strong standards in testing & breedig. So it allows me to go to the best VDD breeder I can find & have a known "standard" of testing, breeding, history, thus stacking the deck the best I can.

If German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America does as Bob West says, "breed only the best examples of the breed" {& I have no reason to doubt they do} then they are on the same page about furthering, bettering the breed as is VDD. Are there AKC wirehairs that are not members of the German Wirehared Pointer Club of America? Puppy mills? Maybe, maybe not.

Bob West is saying the same thing. {True difference are usually between breeders and not which organization that you register your dog with. This is where the �Strain� or �Line� plays a significant role when selecting a pup. Eventually, a kennel's reputation is reflective of it�s particular traits."}

I believe the testing & breeding standards of VDD Drahtaars vs. general AKC wirehairs is the reason they consider Drahthaar different then Wirehairs not the DNA being the quilifying difference. They have been breeding to standards since VDD's start in 1902 in Germany. The VDD-GNA in North America since the early 1970's.

I certainly agree, you stil need to find the best kennell possible & the best dog for your needs, Drahthaars or Wirehair. It sounds like your German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America is a good place to start if you want an AKC Wirehair that is above the possible "just pedigreed" Wirehair.



Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction. - Billy the Kid.

Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Siggy32,

You did a good job of explaining. You said the VDD has a standard on abilities that HAS to be demonstrated before they allow breeding. I can see where a VDD dog would most likely have the field traits one would want. I am not very knowledgeable about either organization's standards.
You spoke of VDD's and I cannot comment on the German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America's standard. Enough on that.

I wouldn't worry too much about your dog's jumping into his crate when you change locations. It will eventually happen. To quote a dog trainer near me, Webb Parton, it takes a dog around 100 birds to get things figured out. The refinement of his hunting style will emerge. Based on what you have seen your dog do already you are going to have many days of great hunting in your future.

Based on what several of my friends, including Webb, have told me GWPs mature at a later date than GSPs. Enjoy the learning experiences.

Have a great winter, bird hunting. Nice to talk to you.

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Originally Posted by BullGoose
AZshooter, in my travels I have found that it can be down right insulting to some people to use wirehair and drahthaar interchangeably. Drahthaars have to pass a basic ability and conformation test to be registered as a Deutch Drahthaar. Wirehairs just need the right parents. I may have the details wrong but if there is a drahthaar guy here he can set me right.


100% correct.

Once upon a time they both derived from the same ancestry but that is no longer true today. Wirehairs and Drathaars are quite different today. All Drathaars are registered with the Verein Deutsch Draathaar (VDD) the parent club in Germany, no Wirehair can be ever be VDD registered. All Drathaars must pass hunting/ability tests with documented results before they can be bred. The VDD as does most German dog clubs has breed wardens within the club to recommend, assess and manage breedings. None of this is true with AKC registered Wirehairs.

Like many of the sporting breeds Americans have altered and changed the Wirehair breed fit their personal needs. The AKC registry and show ring has all but ruined many sporting breeds. The AKC only cares about making money and doesn't care about any hunting attributes/qualities the breed was developed for. AKC field trials have done no better with the Wirehair breed. No where in Germany or within the VDD regiastry or VDD-GNA will you see a white colored small framed Drathaar that runs a mile ahead of a hunter. There are MANY US field trail bred AKC Wirehairs that resemble that. The Drathaar was developed as a versatile hunter on both land and water. If was not developed to competed with or replace Pointers.

Because of the concern that the Americans were ruining the breed the VDD decided long ago to seperate the two breeds. There are still good Wirehairs bred within the US, several of which are NAVHDA versatile champions (tested like VDD) but IMO there are a lot better bred Drathaars than Wires in the US.

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Originally Posted by Azshooter
I think the dogs are the same so does Bob West. There are two separate groups the German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
and the Verein Deutsch-Drahthaar/Group North America. Both started with the same dogs from Germany. Funny how the VDD has this sense that their dogs are different to the GWP. I think it is incorrect, so does Bob West. Both groups strive to breed only the best examples of the breed, with no hip issues etc. Only a puppy mill would do otherwise.

Quote from Bob's website:

"Are German Wirehaired Pointers and Deutsch Drahthaars the same breed? This is an honest question asked by the novice dog buyer seeking to learn more about his next hunting breed. The answer is unquestionably � YES. In fact, the word �Deutsch� means �German� and �Draht� means �Wire�; and �haar� means �hair�. Thus, Deutsch Drahthaar is German Wirehair. Nevertheless, an American VDD representative, proclaiming to be an expert, created this mythology about two distinct breeds. It is difficult for some individuals to accept the fact that there is only one breed. Belonging to a particular organization, is not a guarantee that you own a better or a worse dog. VDD dogs tested by NAVHDA have achieved no better or worse scores than their American counterparts. The DNA that flows through their bodies is one in the same. The dogs do not differ in DNA; they are not different breeds. Are there differences between individual dogs? The answer is yes. True difference are usually between breeders and not which organization that you register your dog with. This is where the �Strain� or �Line� plays a significant role when selecting a pup. Eventually, a kennel's reputation is reflective of it�s particular traits."

Entire article: http://www.drahthaars.net/myths.htm

No offense if your dog(s) come from Treborwolf lines but I can tell you straight up Bob West's dogs, breeding program and standards are laughed upon by VDD members. Take Bob Wests marketing comments with a grain of salt. Do some independent research and you'll find out what knowledgeable people and breeders have to say about his lines, particularily with "sharpness". Also ask Bob why he doesn't test his dogs....maybe it's because he's been banned from participating at NAVHDA events because of his dogs temperments.




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Siggy32 Offline OP
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Well Gohstman, very well spoken about the AKC, I was trying to be a littl more diplomatic but you have said it more to the point & factual as we have seen what has happened to other breeds as you pointed out. I remember when I was little boy many moons ago, there used to be a Irish Setter that was considered a hunting dog, now they are trying to resurect them from the show ring.

As I said I feel the Drahts are kept through testing & breeding regulations to standard to protect & further the breed.

As to Bob West I defer as I said I don't know him. Sounds his advertising is different then the reality you speak of.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction. - Billy the Kid.

Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Raider get out for any more quail? My neighbor is hunting his GSP for the first season and he having lots of fun too.

Regarding the Irish Setter....a friend said he read that the Russians got the good hunters back in the 30's before they were ruined as dingy showdogs. After the fall of the soviet union they were discovered to have been bred to maintain the hunting skills. So...if you want a hunting irish setter they still exist.


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No don't need an Irish Setter, I have a Drahthaar, was just making a point about how they were basically ruined by the AKC show dog mentality in the USA & now is a small return of the hunting dog.

The History of how the Drahthaars was affected by WWII is interesting also. They were not lost but set back due to the war, not being able to breed them as they had been, just now getting back to what they were once in the article I read. Again, goes to show the breed has been bettered in their testing & breeding programs.

No didn't get Raider back out, lost a weekend to go see Daughter in Texas, & this week to Christmas stuff. Plan to get him out this week come Hell or High Water. Really would like some snow or moisture only frost in the morning then gets pretty dusty.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction. - Billy the Kid.

Democracy is two wolves & a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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I LOVE those big rubber noses! laugh cool

Sounds like you two have a bright future together. wink


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