Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Black bears...what rifle/caliber?

Coyote- you and I be thinkin' alike. Except my load is Re7 and 400 gr Speers at 1875 ft/sec. I know of a couple of bears that were really, really, impressed with that load.

I hate to say it but I built a 35 whelen for just such a purpose in case I get the 200 yard shot while on my way into or out of the bait.

JJ is absolutely right about the blood trails from black bears - they don't leave much, especially fat fall bears. The second bear I shot was with the 45-70; the bear was quartering me slightly (thought it was dead broadside). Put a 350 grain Hornady right behind the near-side front leg but only caught 1 lung and liver. The bear only went ~ 100 yards but the blood trail was relatively good. Even then it took 45 minutes to find it in the Canadian bush (Quebec).

To the orignal post, I'm not against your buddy buying the 375 for bear hunting but he also doesn't need to load it full tilt either. A 375 bullet traveling 24-2500 ft/sec is still overkill, shoots plenty flat enough and allows a larger exit. A 270 gr 375 cal bullet traveling 2500 ft/sec drops ~1, 3, 14 at 100, 200, 300 yards if sighted in at 150 yards. It recoils ~ 33 ft/lbs in a 9 lb rifle as well. His 7 mag is likely in the 27 ft/lbs category with max 175 gr loads so the 375 shouldn't be a huge step up. Plus we all need another rifle.

When I hunted Montana near Libby, we glassed bears from over a half a mile away. Most were grazing on grass near clear cuts. We had no problems identifying cubs w/sows or the dinks (and most were dinks compared to what I'm used to) using binos or the 20X spotter. Yes, there were brushy areas but that is not where we found the bears, they were where sunlight could shine on closed forestry roads and the edges of clearcuts, the sunlit areas germinated grass seeds hence bear food.

I've always believed its better to cover more ground with your eyes and optics rather than your feet. If you can't judge a bear in good light with good optics under a thousand yards then you don't know what a good bear looks like to begin with. I'm fortunate enough to live near big black bear country and I've glassed, killed and helped kill my share of big bears. And I don't mean a 300lb dink with mickey mouse ears either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

There are bear hunters and then there are big bear hunters, the latter knows that a big boar has certain features that will set him apart fom the dinks and that includes big bear sign when scouting. This judgement comes with experience from spending time in big bear country and paying attention to big bears, both dead ones and live ones.

The way I see it, if you cannot ID a good mature bear using good optics in good light under a thousand yards, then you are setting yourself up to shoot a dink or worse, a sow with cubs.

MtnHtr

I agree with JJHack,

I don't think black bears are hard to kill, but so many run off into thick stuff when shot. Unless you've shot quite a few, you might not have had one you had to trail in really thick stuff. Until that happens you might disagree with JJ's post. After it happens to you - you'll know what he's talking about.

Their lack of hooves makes them harder to track, the thick crap they like to live in can be thicker than what other animals would be hanging around in - and as was mentioned earlier, their thick pelt, coupled with what can be bodies covered in deep layers of fat - can all add up to the hardest animal to track that I know of.

Couple that with the remote chance they might want to hurt you back if you do end up finding them where the distance is measured in feet - not yards - and you have the reason I prefer Nosler 220's and Barnes X's 200's fired out of a 30-06 Remington Pump as my "go-to" bear combo.

I always try for a double shoulder shot - myself. Breaking 'em down seems to work better than waiting for them to die from lung or heart shots in my experience.

A few years back I was in the Taylor Mountains in Alaska with my wife and a guide with two hunters who were on a mixed hunt for black bear and caribou. The guide who was supposed to hunt with my wife and I was not there due to weather. In the meantime we were hanging out with the other guide and his hunters. One of these men had wounded a bear by trying a neck shot at about 200 yards, I thought that was a stupid shot and told him so. I noticed a bear limping and told the guide we should go after it because it was more than likely the bear from the day before. We then had quite an adventure tracking this wounded bear. My wife sat on a hilltop with binoculars and could see the bear when we could not due to brush and terrain. She gave us hand signals to help us find it. It finally stopped in some berries and the guide got uphill from the bear with his hunter. He was ready to back up the hunter and the hunter changed his mind about shooting because of the thick brush and being excited about being so close to the bear. I was watching from the side and slightly downhill. When the guide relaxed and put his rifle down the hunter mounted his rifle and fired without warning. He was using a 7 Mag and shooting at very close range in heavy brush (alders?) I have never seen anything move so fast in my life. The bear ran downhill and all I could see were branches moving. I watched as it came to a small stream but never saw the bear, only moving branches.
The guide then walked downhill to the stream and started looking for blood. We never found the bear! The bear hunter told me he had tried another neck shot! I asked him why and he said he always used a neck shot. Duh! After that conversation I decided I didn't like neck shots or 7 Mags for black bear. I think you can take what JJ Hack says as the GOSPEL!
Great White North

Never had to track a bear shot with a .358 win. ,.35 whelen or .350 rem mag. a .375 is way too much for black bear over bait. and it's harder to shoot well.

GreatWhiteNorth, sounds like the problem was with the shooter, rather than a poor caliber choice...

This has been an interesting thread. As an update, my buddy has given up the idea, at least for the time being, of getting a .375H&H. He doesn't handload and factory ammo costs more than he is willing to spend. I'll suggest he use a premium bullet in the 7mm Mag.

I don't hunt black bear but my buddy has whacked a zillion of 'em with a 30-06. I think he is shooting 180s.

I'm with JJ on his observations. I hunt black bear in the Maine woods where a 60 yard shot is arguably on the longish side. Also black bears are relatively soft targets--if hit properly of course. At our place in Maine, the 06 is the #1 caliber for bears, but I've seen the gambit and they do leave a lousy blood trail for the most part. Accordingly, I shoot for the shoulder with what I think is a good bear caliber, the 35 Wheelen. In Maine most bears are shot right at dark, so even if they go a short distance, tracking them raises the pucker factor, hence another pitch for a big hole right on the shoulder. I was fortunate in shooting a nice bruin two Septembers ago right at dusk and that 225gr Swift whacked him hard, he never took another step and that should be your goal. jorge

FWIW - I have only hunted bears 2x. In Onterio in a small bear area (average size 125lbs) And I shot a sow at 90 yards with a 30-06 180rg Partitions IIRC and she died within 10 yards - heard the death moan and everything (that'll freak you out at dusk) - my uncle shot a 200 lb boar with a 270 from a range of 40 yards - we tracked it almost 1/2 mile - needless to say it ended up with 2 more 30-06 rounds in it from my rifle before he died - tough old bastid - skinned him out and found an old broadhead burried in his back.

Based on our expirences -- I wouldn't go less than 30 cal and would prob go with the largest caliber I can shoot comfortably.

Mtn Hunter; I agree that given the time and right conditions you can identify a good bear at longer range. However I'm not viewing this as a local hunter with a lot of time or a guy that can hunt prime habitat for the whole season. I have to view this as a guide, or out of state hunter with a narrow window of opportunity to shoot a bear.

Let me put this into that perspective. When a guide that has a business reputation to maintain takes a hunter who has a 6-7 day hunt for black bears they are not typically searching for a particular animal or the extreme trophy. If that bear shows up then great everyone will be happy. But the reality of this hunting as done in the spring between guide and client is much different.

with the possible weather conditions in the higher country with clouds and fog, rain etc. The guide may only be able to show a hunter a bear a day on average, probably less but it's a practical number. If the bear is to far, too small, the stalk is buggered, or the bear just wanders off out of site. There are coutless ways to fail even when seeing a bear.

When that one bear comes into view in and out of the bush on day 4 or 5 within a practical range the job to judge the size, sex, hide, must be done in a hurry and the shot taken. A paying client has come a long way and the weather and lost opportunities are forcing the need to have success. It might be the last chance to shoot before the hunt is over, or weather changes end the hunt. The pressure builds. The bear is in and out of the bush somtimes only seeing part of the body as he climbs over stumps or logs. Maybe for a few seconds he walks across a clearing but again back into the bush. You watch the bushes shaking and moving for 20 minutes at a time before he emerges again with a slight view. The luxury of watching bears for long periods does not exist in this situation. The guide must make the call with very little visual info to go on. The hunter must make the shot with brief moments of exposure in the bush.

This is very typical of a guided bear hunt in the PNW. It can be more open or more bush, each bear picks the spot not us. For this reason I stand by my comment that judging bears beyond 300 yards is not at all consistant or practical. Under good conditions it will work. It would work for a local with lots of time to pass and or try a few days later. Those options unfortunately do not exist for a hunter using a guide with a narrow window for success on a guided hunt. Each time you decide to pass a bear it could be the last chance you have on a very short hunt. As the clock ticks down the pressure builds and judging gets sloppy. It's just Human nature.

JJ,

Your post is well taken and thank you for the clarification. You posted the following line to raghorny and that is where I disagreed with you based on that statement, you wrote:

Quote:

"I have never met a single experienced hunter in my life and my whole career hunting bears that could judge a bear with any degree of accuracy for sex, size, or hide quality over 300 yards."

JJ

End of quote

Later you did post under certain situations that it is entirely possible to accurately judge bears over 300yds but I take it you have not hunted under those situations except in the PNW?

Certainly if you factor in bad weather or fog one could not accurately judge a bear over 300yds away. Poor light would also hamper bear judging over 300yds. But you did not post that in your original post and those factors (weather, fog, rain etc) would apply to most big game hunting where judging for trophy quality is of importance.

As for pressure on a guide to produce a bear for a client, I think thats a whole different subject and ball game. Alot of clients get ripped off every year by bear guides, shooting dink bears is anti-climatic IMHO and experience.

MtnHtr

A 270/7mm whatever/30-06-300 Mag will be fine.

Because of our mild winter the bears have been out of their dens for a long time now though our season doesn't open til Sunday. I'd suspect Idaho is in the same condition.

I guess it's moot now since the source of the question has made up his mind. I'm not an experienced bear killer, but I'm a pretty experienced .375 shooter. For a baited hunt, not in the rain forest, I would think the hunter would do better with the 7 mag he knows (and still flinches on sometimes) than trying to learn to shoot the H&H before he goes bear hunting. I've let a lot of guys who shoot "deer rifles" shoot my .375s, and there is a pretty big difference. Easy to forget if you shoot them for a long time, but it's a pretty significant jump, and not conducive to precise shooting over bait---which should eliminate any long trailing jobs if done well. JMHO

You make good points, Steve_NO. The real question now is which bullets are most suitable for the 7mm RM on his hunt.

I guess if I were bearhunting with a 7 mag, I'd probably go with a bonded Swift to hold the mushroom on and leave as good a blood trail as possible. The 175 Nosler partition is a fine bullet and would give you an exit, but it would probably just be the shank of the bullet left, and a.284 hole in a fat bear ain't going to let a lot of blood out.

Black bear have always just been an extra tag carried on an elk hunt for me, so I've never tried to figure out a specific black bear gun. I'm either carrying an '06 or a .338 for elk, and I'm satisfied that either one will do if I'm lucky enough to see a grown up bruin. The only ones I ever had shot opportunities on were dinks, even to my unskilled eye. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Brad is completely right. 270, 280, 7mag., or 06 is plently. Most all spring bears in Idaho will weight less then 200lbs. In the fall you can add about a 1/3 to that. Heck, I've kill sring blacks with 1 shot from a 6mm Rem. and a 257 Rob. They must not be wearing their kevral vests in the spring. Pedro

In Minnesota you will more often than not see your bear right at dusk or first thing in the morning in heavy cover which doesn't let much light through even when there is some.
We hunt over bait so shots are close. There are always branches that jump between you and the bear when you shoot. With good bullet placement a 30-06 with 180 gr bullets equals success. The problem is bullet placement is not always good. Bears move around and branches get in the way.
From talking to many other bear hunters over the years in the gun shop I can tell you that most experienced hunters like a bigger bullet than 6mm. I knew one gunsmith who bragged about his 6mm and said it was plenty of gun who the next year showed up at bear camp with a Siamese Mauser in 45-70.
Something must have changed his mind. Another one used a Blr in 308 with 150 gr and said it was plenty, he bought a 375 H&H Magnum Model 70 the folllowing year. I will use a 35 Whelen with 250 gr bullets this year if I draw a tag. You can use whatever you want! Is this a great country or what? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
GWN

Mtn Hunter,
It's obvious that you know what you know and won't hear of anything else. You had three if's in your post: if good optics, if good light, if good vantage point. Another assumption you don't seem to realize is relatively open vegetation. Some parts of Idaho, Washington, B.C., Alaska and even western Montana have really thick vegetation and brush below timberline. Make that thick wet brush, grown up clearcuts (the best ones are not fresh cut lawns), thick brush one step off of the grassy switchbacks on roads, rain, fog, closed or washed out roads forcing long climbs/hikes to see some of the best areas... This discussion is sort of like a decaf nonfat latte with no whipped cream: why bother. But it is interesting. One of the better guides I know has a personal limit of 100 yards on everything he shoots: sheep, moose, bears, even a high ranking goat that he passed at about 200 yards till he could stalk within 100. He doesn't so limit his clients, especially those who are sure they know better. It's just his personal decision about how to make his own shots (and follow up) sure.

Confession time: I killed a two year old cub once that I'd judged to be a whopper bear. Driving up to fish in fog and rain one spring I came around a corner and rolled up right beside a huge black bear feeding on the road edge. We looked at each other from about six feet apart before he stepped over the edge of the drop. I jumped out with my rifle and couldn't see anything in the thick brush except what looked like a road below me that I could see down a slot through the brush and trees. 75 yards ahead of me a side road forked in the bear's direction so I drove up there and down the side road. It didn't double back to the bear at all. After 1/4 mile I turned around and roared back to see a bear ahead of me in the fog, in the road in a low place with a solid bank behind it, about 100 yards on my side of the junction. I bailed out and took a rest, but the bear didn't look right so I hesitated. Range was about 100 yards, probably less. In the fog and wide road I had nothing to compare it with, so shot it. Legal, but an embarrassing oops. Different bear. Lest you think that is too unusual, I shot the wrong bear another time when I thought I was finishing one about 100 yards from where my partner had shot it. I dashed up a side skid road to circle ahead of the wounded bear while my partner followed it. In the next clearcut above I saw a same size & chocolate colour bear with its rump to me, weaving on its feet. Shot it before it could get out of sight in brush. Nice bear but wrong bear. It was feeding away from me, hence the weaving. Lots of bears in that country and lots of cascading streams to mask noise. Golly it must be nice to hunt in sunlight and good weather, with open vegetation country to see and walk through. Once in awhile I hunt east just to enjoy that.

And I have trailed wounded bears in brush so thick we had to part it each step and squeeze through. Dead bear each time, but not fun. One bear shot in a grassy skid road had only made it about 15 feet but 14 of it was hedge thick. Another gorgeous cinnamon one was in a tiny hole not quite as large as the whole bear, in acres of thick slide alder, huckleberry and mountain mahogany, about 150 yards. At the shot it disappeared.... It must be nice to find shootable bears only in the middle of open clearings.

As to cartridge: I've killed or seen black bears killed with tools ranging from a tire iron to a recurve bow to .22 long rifle to .375 H & H. While I have used a 6mm and a 6.5 when it was the tool in hand when living in bear country, I never took less than a .30 if I was intending to shoot a black bear. Will a 6mm or even a .22 rimfire kill a big black bear? You bet. I'll stay here and give you hand signals while you trail it.

Okanagan,

Its time to put this thread to rest. My opinion and experience are just that and since most here don't feel they are not of the "gospel" lets just leave em be. JJ has clarified his statements and I have attempted to clarify mine. His nor my opinion are wrong, just different experiences.

I do feel along with others here that some put waaay too much faith in one person's opinions or advice and then term it as the "gospel". LOLs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've posted a few links here on spot n stalk bear hunting for other's opinions/experiences on the subject since mine don't hold much water here on the campfire. Take em or reject em fwiw.

There are plenty of guides/hunters out there that can judge bears accurately in the PNW. The way I look at it, if conditions are such that one cannot accurately judge a black bear beyond 300yds, they should be using a different tactic under those conditions(for example - bait, calling). Pay close attention to the spot n stalk subtitles or paragraphs in these articles:

Black Bear Bonanza

Stalking Black Bears

Bear Bagging Tips

Proven Methods

I'm pretty much done on posting my opinions/advice on this thread. I can take comfort in that my experiences and advice have served myself and others well when it comes to harvesting a mature black bear instead of just filling a client's tag on an immature bear.

MtnHtr

I have shot 15 black bear, with the following rifles:
.243
7x57
.308
.300 WM

No problem, all one shot kills. Not that tough of a critter to put down.