|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,347
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,347 |
No matter how much money is in my wallet its not worth killing some one over,But loosing your life to someone that wants your wallet is something else all together!
A whole lot of reading the situation,demeanor,intent ect.and a split second to sort it out,Is not something I really want to face given a choice.Read the situation wrong and you could be dead or in jail.Ive been a hunter since I was old enough to carry a fire arm,pulling the trigger is something I can do if
Im forced to. My concense would not get in the way of surviving.
Making the wrong choice might though.
Hope I never get put to the test.
Bob. I think most males have been forced into this way of thinking/behaving by our increasingly feminine society. I see it like this: It's my money, not his. If he threatens me in some way, it can go lethal. If the guy is near your size, what if he beats you down? I hear from cops that you can't use lethal force against a potential beat-down. The thing is, you never know what the guy will do if he bests you and you never know who will best you. Maybe the guy is an ex-Airborne Ranger with awesome hand-to-hand skills even though he is 5'4" and weighs 130 lbs. Maybe he could kill you with a Vulcan Death Grip. I am not kidding here as there are some people that, once they get you down, they become sadistic whereas they were not before the fight started. Putting a gun or knife in the equation makes it that much worse. By surrendering, you have let the enemy dictate terms. Once that is done, they can do anything they want to you. I would rather go down fighting than get shot in the head while kneeling in defeat. Another way to look at it is like this...you wouldn't surrender to a bear or panther unless there was no other option-then you would play dead. Most of these degenerates are like wild animals. Don't play dead unless you literally have no other option. That you might be saving somebody down the road is the icing on the cake and not to be mentioned to anybody in the aftermath. No offense intended to you iblong. I find a lot of things wrong with this statement, differing points of view I suppose, but there is a time and place to defend. Some of it has to do with what we all know will end up in nasty legal battle, should that cross our minds, probably not, but its reality and we have to play the game, even if we dont like the rules. Comparing it to surrending to a wild aniaml attack is way off base. Nobody said he was attacking you, secondly, no one is going to sue you out of every dime you own for killing a bear or panther. Call it selfish but im not out to save people down the road, im out to save myself, its sad it has to be that way but as I said before, I didnt make the rules. In todays "feminine society" as you call it, a guy calls your wife a name and you dot his eye.....you get arrested for assualt and lose your guns and some of your freedom, 50 years ago you would have gotten a pat on the back. Today someone says give me your wallet and flashes a gun and you shoot him, he or his family sues you for everything you own and you possibly go to jail, 50 years ago you would have gotten a pat on the back. Times are changing whether we like it or not and even if we dont agree with the way things are we need to be aware of them for our own saftey, old school mentality when it comes to self defense has no place in todays world. My .02.
Last edited by warpig602; 12/17/10.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,347
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,347 |
But the key element in this situation to me was that he just showed the gun, his hand wasn�t on the gun and it wasn�t pointed at me; that changes things a whole bunch. Bingo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,547
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,547 |
3. Tell him to pound sand.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 477
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 477 |
Cole,No offence taken.
I really cant say how I would react,10 yrs ago I thought different than I do now.I was never one to think mostly I reacted.
When I was young Id fight at the drop of a hat and it caused me a few problems,But what I do know is in the end Ill do what I need to to live through an altercation because I dont see getting killed an option.
Bob.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 367
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 367 |
It's true that Texas state law does allow deadly force in defense of property. However, when I lived in Texas and took my CCW course, the instructor basically told us that if you use deadly force to protect property you'll get into a whole mess of trouble regardless of what the law says. Same goes for NM where I live now - legal but the CCW instructor basically said forget it. The common standard seems to be defense of your own life or others in imminent danger.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
A couple of things.
First, in the above, the guy is a drug addict who is desparate for drug money. While you might not be inclined to shoot him over the contents of your wallet, they often are. The fact that he didn't touch the gun might indicate he wasn't going to shoot you over it, but it could also be a ploy for use in a defense at his trial, or maybe he just didn't want anyone but you to actually see his gun, etc. Lots of possibilities here.
Second, I can assure you if you are worried more about being sued, then don't even consider using a gun, or carrying one for self defense. I, for one, would much rather be judged by 12 decent, law bidding people who will consider at lenth my motives than to turn over my future to some desparate addict who could just as easily shoot me for the slightest provacation, real or imagined. BTW, if he does, they rarely have anything that you can sue them for.
I've seen it go both ways. I'll take trial by jury, either criminal or civil, any day over letting some desparate addict have his way.
That's not to say I would necessarily shoot him. But I seriously doubt I'd give up w/o a fight unless I had no chance at all to fight or back away. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8,625
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8,625 |
DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
I LOVE MY COUNTRY IT'S THE GOV'T I FEAR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,956 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,956 Likes: 3 |
But the key element in this situation to me was that he just showed the gun, his hand wasn�t on the gun and it wasn�t pointed at me; that changes things a whole bunch. To me at least (without seeing his eyes and body language as a whole), that indicates someone who just wants my wallet, not my life. If I�m convinced he just wants my wallet, I can take a hit to my ego and give him my wallet. But if I feel he�s going to take the wallet, then take my life; well things are going to get exciting.
Same thing with a bear or a panther. I�ve stared down about a dozen bears, but never a panther. I�ve been in two stand up fights with a bear, but the other instances, neither the bear or I were interested in killing each other. The bear got what he/she came for, and I felt no need to contest it.
It�s good to have people skills and be street wise. My years in the field as a medic has given me a good insight into what a person is likely to do. When you�re continuously brought into very dangerous situations armed only with your wits, you learn to read people. So I would be reading the guy from second one. Now understand, HE is the one who initiated or implied the threat�it�s no longer about what he may or may not do or intend to do, but what I PERCEIVE he may or may not do or intend to do. That�s why threatening someone with a gun is dangerous business. He could come up against Kevin Gibson, who has a lot of patience and generally a pretty good sense of humor, or the poor SOB could threaten Cole Younger who seems to be genuinely offended by someone brandishing a firearm his way�
The fact that he showed the gun to me means that if I do not comply with his demands then he intends to use the gun. Other wise why even show the gun in the first place? In this case it is now an even chance that I can get my weapon into play. The fact that he is giving me that opertunity does not mean that I am safe from him pulling the gyn and using it if I allow him to. The fact that the gun was displayed tells me that he will use it. I would certainly feel in grave danger in this case
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,266
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,266 |
+1 If he showed the gun, it is time to act. If I get sued, it will be by his family, not him!!! My life is worth more then all of the POS that ever lived!!!
The foundation for old age is good memories.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
But the key element in this situation to me was that he just showed the gun, his hand wasn�t on the gun and it wasn�t pointed at me; that changes things a whole bunch. To me at least (without seeing his eyes and body language as a whole), that indicates someone who just wants my wallet, not my life. If I�m convinced he just wants my wallet, I can take a hit to my ego and give him my wallet. But if I feel he�s going to take the wallet, then take my life; well things are going to get exciting.
Same thing with a bear or a panther. I�ve stared down about a dozen bears, but never a panther. I�ve been in two stand up fights with a bear, but the other instances, neither the bear or I were interested in killing each other. The bear got what he/she came for, and I felt no need to contest it.
It�s good to have people skills and be street wise. My years in the field as a medic has given me a good insight into what a person is likely to do. When you�re continuously brought into very dangerous situations armed only with your wits, you learn to read people. So I would be reading the guy from second one. Now understand, HE is the one who initiated or implied the threat�it�s no longer about what he may or may not do or intend to do, but what I PERCEIVE he may or may not do or intend to do. That�s why threatening someone with a gun is dangerous business. He could come up against Kevin Gibson, who has a lot of patience and generally a pretty good sense of humor, or the poor SOB could threaten Cole Younger who seems to be genuinely offended by someone brandishing a firearm his way�
The fact that he showed the gun to me means that if I do not comply with his demands then he intends to use the gun. Other wise why even show the gun in the first place? In this case it is now an even chance that I can get my weapon into play. The fact that he is giving me that opertunity does not mean that I am safe from him pulling the gyn and using it if I allow him to. The fact that the gun was displayed tells me that he will use it. I would certainly feel in grave danger in this case I agree completely. It ain't about me being "offended". It's about me being threatened with grave bodily harm or death if I do not give up my wallet. That's the implication.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 90
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 90 |
I once worked with a guy that particapted in IDPA shoots. At work he would constant bring up scenarios and what he would do. One time he was telling me what he'd do if he was in the supermarket and there was a robbery.
I told him I'd be hiding under the lettuce. I have no plans on shooting anyone unless it's me or them.
In the above case I'd give my wallet and hope I didn't need to shoot. To be honest, when I took the CCW course we were told by the sheriff that in the event of a shooting the first words he wanted to hear were "I was afraid for my life" which is what CCW is about.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Son, if somebody shows you their gun while telling you to give up your wallet, you'd better be afraid for your life. It's not about internet bravado. It's simply common sense. What if the guy wants your wife next? You give somebody that kind of power over you, that of life and death, and you may get the latter.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,396 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,396 Likes: 1 |
When he exposes the gun, he's assaulting you.
Mark
I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 910
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 910 |
Not a lawyer, but I was given advice years ago that stuck with me...."If you use more force than is necessary, then you become the aggressor and the courts of all fifty states take a dim view of that."
NRA Benefactor Member
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizenry still gets to vote!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,323 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,323 Likes: 1 |
if he showed me his gun not only would I give him my wallet but would escort him the the nearest ATM and withdraw my life savings and give it too him. Then I would give him the keys to my car for good measure. TFF.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,177 Likes: 3
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,177 Likes: 3 |
The moral ambiguities on this can and has filled dozens of pages of discussion here.
As for myself - I don't care to lay out "what would I do" in a public forum.
Things to consider....
Where does this guy go next?
How have you contributed to or detracted from his next possible violent action?
Will he reach for his gun as you reach for your wallet?
Are you ready for the legal sh**storm?
You don't have time to think of these things then....better do it now.
I'll pass on the poll.
Excellent points... Kudos..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676 |
The solution to the liberal mess is that when a creep breaks into your home and you shoot him, make the body disappear and don't call anyone.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
BS. You are the agressor if you start the incident. This so called excessive force argument is just hot air. The laws in liberal California don't say anything about "more force than necessary." It simply says if you have reasonable cause to believe that you or others may suffer death or great bodily harm, you may use deadly force to defend yourself or others.
If youy start the incident and wish to regain your nonagressor staus, which you must have to claim self defense, you must first withdraw or make a good faith effort to do so.
Reasonable cause is defined as more than bare fear. Some grounds based on some fact or action by the agressor that led you to believe that great bodily harm or death was about to be done to you or others. That also means that you don't have to be right, you simply have to have good reason to believe that.
This is usually where we hear that old argument about being sued if wrong, or you can't prove your case, etc. Not true. They have to prove that you are wrong.
Sure, many people get sued for using deadly force when they are in the right. I'd point out that if you are wrongfully sued, you may counter sue those that do. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
If you get caught doing that, you've all but guaranteed a conviction for yourself to say nothing of losing a nasty civil case. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,956 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,956 Likes: 3 |
if he showed me his gun not only would I give him my wallet but would escort him the the nearest ATM and withdraw my life savings and give it too him. Then I would give him the keys to my car for good measure. TFF. Your defense is to give up all of your worldly possessions and allow him the perfect opportunity to eliminate you as a witness. Brilliant liberal plan
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
574 members (10Glocks, 2500HD, 1minute, 1234, 222Sako, 007FJ, 60 invisible),
2,078
guests, and
1,255
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,778
Posts18,495,871
Members73,977
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
