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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,849 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,849 Likes: 2 |
I have read a lot of what has been published about the pre '64 M/70 over the past 40 yrs. or so. The gas handling issue has to do with the difference in the bolt shroud of the M/70 and the Mauser. The Mauser has a flange at the forward edge that was intended as a last form of protection, deflecting escaping gas before it reached the shooters eye. Ruptured cartridge cases were probably far more common in the era in which the Mauser was designed than when Winchester engineers designed the M/70. I believe there was a custom gunsmith who designed a bolt sleeve for the M/70 that incorporated a Mauser-like flange. I have never seen one, so I don't believe the idea caught on. As regards the trigger, I have always been satisfied with the pre '64 trigger and have never felt the need to do any adjusting or gunsmithing. I owned a .338 Winchester Magnum that the previous owner had installed a Canjar trigger in, it felt like a M/52 Micro-motion trigger breaking very crisply with very little over travel. An I am talking about Canjar's standard trigger, not the set trigger model. In my opinion most of the M/70's percieved deficiencies are between the owner's ears. The one flaw I will agree to is the poor stock design, it does not handle recoil well. Other than to sight in or check zero I don't shoot my pre '64's from the bench a lot. The recoil issue when shooting at game is like the noise of the shot, just not noticed enough to be of concern to me. I have had a couple of pre '64's custom stocked and agree they are more comfortable to shoot. Currently I am awaiting the delivery of a Griffin & Howe M/70 .35 Whelen that was made in 1961, it had a Monte Carlo stock which looked hideously out of place on a classic rifle like a G&H. Their gunsmithing shop is in the process of redesigning the stock into a straight comb and adding a G&H recoil pad.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 693
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 693 |
If there is a higher quality, non-custom rifle than my pre-war SG carbine, I've yet to see it....
Life's too short to smoke cheap cigars....
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
[quote=Kentucky_Windage] Like Battue has stated....all those with personal experience regarding pre 64 gas handling, raise your hands!Likely far fewer than those having real issue and accidental discharges with Reminton triggers and safeties,' I'll bet...
I challeneged many here to demonstrate how a Kimber action was superior in gas handling to a pre 64 M70 a few weeks back....I got no real answers, and few "takers"....... Bob, I believe I answered your question on the "gas" thread... Kimber and M70's suck about as badly as Rem 700's in regards to gas handling... if you want the "best" gas handling you need to go with a Savage 110, Weatherby MKV (most of us traditionalists won't go to either) or a Mauser 98... PS, agreed about the Pre-64 generally though vs. the Classic, though I don't share your horror of MIM parts... most of the time, all the factory extractor needs is either to be loosened up a bit or tightened up a bit (either way quite simple to do). The Pre-64 really needs a high comb stock to fit my face as it doesn't allow for a low mounted scope. Your Bansner Pre-64 stock is just right IMO.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Brad: I forgot about that...can't remember all these threads You know my point....on here everyone asks, first thing,about "gas handling" when you mention pre 64's,like it's this big deal. ..they sound like parrots....... Yet you never hear the same things asked about any other action that has many of the same faults....for example...how many ask about "H"ring Mausers? Or the same commercial actions like FN or Zustava, with "H" ring and no thumb cut?Or Kimbers? Yeah the Bansner works well..and the Brown also...got a pair of those that have been trucking since the 80's ....the bolt handle clearance is a bit of a pain,and for universal scope clearance the new ones are better. But I get around this and low mounts by mostly using Leups, which clear nicely even on DD mounts;and sometimes Leup STD with some Leup variables
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
Unlike you, I'm a Pre-64 newbie... will say, once I spent some time behind one I was amazed at its feeding... flawless. Best feeding rifle I've ever used.
Will say, there is "feeding" and then there is "feeding"... just because a rifle like, say an M700, will shuck shells into the chamber 100 time out of 100 doesn't mean it feeds particularly well...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
Would add, it's certainly no trick to have a good smith scallop the bolt handle on a pre-64... to me, that's the only real modification it needs.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
True...they feed because they were built to do so.
With rifles for BG hunting, I worry most about two things....maintenance of zero,and flawless function.
I worry less about grouping because that is easy to get...just use good barrels and bed properly.But function under all conditions is not so easy..
..and that is one thing I notice between "old" and "new" guns...ever pick up a M94, or M71, or M12,or a Savage 99 that didn't "work"? Mostly, they don't exist,because knomes with files made sure they did work...it was just in the DNA of gunbuilders in the bygone days,because people looked at guns like they were tools and tools were supposed to work.This is sometimes missing in some manufacturing today.
People shot food and dangerous animals with Winchesters,old Remingtons and Savages.
Today, urban cowboys want to know how small the groups are,and admire the CNC machining...and if it feeds from the confines of an enclosed deer blind, they think it's great...
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
CNC is only as good as the operator and tooling. M70 classics, especially the stainless version's, often look like the were put together by a gorilla with a belt sander. OTOH, the Kimber MT looks, mostly, flawless.
The precision of the parts fit together on the pre-64 is a thing to behold. I'm not one of those that thinks the sun rises and sets on the pre-64 (I don't think they're as good as their most devoted fans think they are, nor as bad as their detractors)... they do have an awful lot of machining marks, etc. BUT, the precise fit and function of the various pieces on a pre-64 is a thing to behold, and the KISS trigger is, to me, the best hunting trigger ever devised. The SC rifles lack, to me, the most salient feature of what makes an M70 an M70...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
Today, urban cowboys want to know how small the groups are,and admire the CNC machining...and if it feeds from the confines of an enclosed deer blind, they think it's great...
The obsessing over stainless, fiberglass, light weight, sub moa, etc., all for a rifle that will be carried 1/4 mile (at the most) to a deer stand is one of the funnier things about this forum. Guess it only goes to show, rifles are fun to obsess over!
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 409
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 409 |
The pre 64 Model 70 was not called the Rifleman's Rifle for nothing...I still have 5 of the many I have owned over the past 40 years+...I have never had one fail me in the field...from Texas to the Arctic or California to Newfoundland..BobinNH has pretty much covered it regarding the grand ol' pre 64 Model 70... in my opinion there is none better...
"To pick a rifle and bullet for use on game by muzzle energy alone is, at best, foolish...and can be dangerous to your own health..." Bill Steigers, April 23, 1980
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813 |
Today, urban cowboys want to know how small the groups are,and admire the CNC machining...and if it feeds from the confines of an enclosed deer blind, they think it's great...
The obsessing over stainless, fiberglass, light weight, sub moa, etc., all for a rifle that will be carried 1/4 mile (at the most) to a deer stand is one of the funnier things about this forum. Wish I would have said that.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Damned! If they were so good then this transition (1948) model should be worth more than $500-$700.00 dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Maybe I'll list it on gunbroker and see what the consensus is there.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Looks like coffee and donuts time . And where did I put that suit?...............still looking for that damned thing.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813 |
Used to know a guy who could add $700 back on in very little time. It would cost you a couple hundred, but it would be "new" again.
However, he had to give the restoration market to another after he was caught.
I don't know what all the fuss is about, they do it with old cars all the time and Turnbull restoration seems to be doing a thriving business doing the same upfront.
The more they age, the more accepted it will become.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Battue you should of used this instead of a period for your punctuation mark . No I'm just kidding. Kind of agree with you here, but we all know there is a fine line there and when it comes right down to it, most people believe there's no differnece between that and a counterfeit dollar bill.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813 |
Bob didn't and his was much more artful than mine. Agree completely. I have one he did, but I'm upfront about it. It was pretty rough when I gave it to him. Subsequently a couple aficionados have tried to buy it. Still shoots great. It will become more common in the future.
Last edited by battue; 12/30/10.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Used to know a guy who could add $700 back on in very little time. It would cost you a couple hundred, but it would be "new" again.
However, he had to give the restoration market to another after he was caught.
I don't know what all the fuss is about, they do it with old cars all the time and Turnbull restoration seems to be doing a thriving business doing the same upfront.
The more they age, the more accepted it will become. The funny thing about that rifle in the picture is it has aged some 62 years. It is like a fine wine and some poor guy thought he was making himself the classiest rifle in town. Little did he know back then that it would end up being worth less (almost worthless as a collector) some day. I'll tell you, the rifle in the pic is one of the nicest I've ever seen and my friend won't budge off of around the $900.00 mark!!!!! Kind of don't blame him though because of what BobinNH was saying about them. He's absolutely right as far as I'm concerned. He loves it when I tell him that especially when it is where you guys can see it and not just in a pm .
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,191 Likes: 6
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,191 Likes: 6 |
Been re-finished but reasonably well done. I like pre-64 actions a lot and, like most, prefer the pre-war and trnsition actions. After that, actions 1958 and older seem best. As the basis for a custom rifle, the pre-64 is an action which needs just enough cosmetic work to allow the 'smith to show off a bit. The new SC Model 70 receivers are the best of the lot as far as dimensions and finish are concerned. Surfaces are true and no holes are dished out. All surfaces are smooth and edges are sharp (sometimes a bit too sharp!). The bolts are also better machined and finished. I like that the bolt sleeve is threaded with standard vee threads and the fit to the bolt body is, generally, better. I like that the contact surface between cocking piece and sear is vertical and that the sear poivots at the rear. The sear no longer lifts the rear of the bolt up when the action is cocked. As far as the trigger is concerned, I think the new trigger is reasonably well designed. I am a fairly good hand with the original triggers and can tune them as well as anyone. I can do at least as well with the new trigger and with less effort. Many complain that enclosed triggers collect debris. Here's a tip; clean the rifle now and then! Seriously, I think the trigger is a non-issue. I would have like to have seen Winchester make the bolt handle integral but, as long as the joint is well done, it's not a real issue either. I would also have liked to see them eliminate the anti-bind protrusion on the bolt head and return to the pre-64 guide "hump". The new bottom metal is an abomination. It is an ugly piece which, with use, will only get uglier. Winchester had the opportunity to change the breeching system to improve gas handling but chose to not do so. I wish they had. The new SC actions offer one improvement over the other post-64 actions which is significant. The receiver threads are larger and are no longer interrupted by the broaching of the locking lug raceways. The change was made to address problems which surfaced with the advent of the WSM cartridges but it was a worthwhile change regardless of caliber. All in all, I still prefer the pre-64 action but consider the newest offering to be better than acceptable. GD
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Bob didn't and his was much more artful than mine. Agree completely. I have one he did, but I'm upfront about it. It was pretty rough when I gave it to him. Subsequently a couple aficionados have tried to buy it. Still shoots great. It will become more common in the future. Battue, that's a beauty for sure.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
Been re-finished but reasonably well done. I like pre-64 actions a lot and, like most, prefer the pre-war and trnsition actions. After that, actions 1958 and older seem best. As the basis for a custom rifle, the pre-64 is an action which needs just enough cosmetic work to allow the 'smith to show off a bit. The new SC Model 70 receivers are the best of the lot as far as dimensions and finish are concerned. Surfaces are true and no holes are dished out. All surfaces are smooth and edges are sharp (sometimes a bit too sharp!). The bolts are also better machined and finished. I like that the bolt sleeve is threaded with standard vee threads and the fit to the bolt body is, generally, better. I like that the contact surface between cocking piece and sear is vertical and that the sear poivots at the rear. The sear no longer lifts the rear of the bolt up when the action is cocked. As far as the trigger is concerned, I think the new trigger is reasonably well designed. I am a fairly good hand with the original triggers and can tune them as well as anyone. I can do at least as well with the new trigger and with less effort. Many complain that enclosed triggers collect debris. Here's a tip; clean the rifle now and then! Seriously, I think the trigger is a non-issue. I would have like to have seen Winchester make the bolt handle integral but, as long as the joint is well done, it's not a real issue either. I would also have liked to see them eliminate the anti-bind protrusion on the bolt head and return to the pre-64 guide "hump". The new bottom metal is an abomination. It is an ugly piece which, with use, will only get uglier. Winchester had the opportunity to change the breeching system to improve gas handling but chose to not do so. I wish they had. The new SC actions offer one improvement over the other post-64 actions which is significant. The receiver threads are larger and are no longer interrupted by the broaching of the locking lug raceways. The change was made to address problems which surfaced with the advent of the WSM cartridges but it was a worthwhile change regardless of caliber. All in all, I still prefer the pre-64 action but consider the newest offering to be better than acceptable. GD And that, my friends, is the most qualified voice on this thread... good reading.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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