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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,120 Likes: 12 |
Been re-finished but reasonably well done.
I like pre-64 actions a lot and, like most, prefer the pre-war and trnsition actions. After that, actions 1958 and older seem best.
As the basis for a custom rifle, the pre-64 is an action which needs just enough cosmetic work to allow the 'smith to show off a bit.
The new SC Model 70 receivers are the best of the lot as far as dimensions and finish are concerned. Surfaces are true and no holes are dished out. All surfaces are smooth and edges are sharp (sometimes a bit too sharp!). The bolts are also better machined and finished. I like that the bolt sleeve is threaded with standard vee threads and the fit to the bolt body is, generally, better. I like that the contact surface between cocking piece and sear is vertical and that the sear poivots at the rear. The sear no longer lifts the rear of the bolt up when the action is cocked.
As far as the trigger is concerned, I think the new trigger is reasonably well designed. I am a fairly good hand with the original triggers and can tune them as well as anyone. I can do at least as well with the new trigger and with less effort. Many complain that enclosed triggers collect debris. Here's a tip; clean the rifle now and then! Seriously, I think the trigger is a non-issue.
I would have like to have seen Winchester make the bolt handle integral but, as long as the joint is well done, it's not a real issue either. I would also have liked to see them eliminate the anti-bind protrusion on the bolt head and return to the pre-64 guide "hump".
The new bottom metal is an abomination. It is an ugly piece which, with use, will only get uglier.
Winchester had the opportunity to change the breeching system to improve gas handling but chose to not do so. I wish they had.
The new SC actions offer one improvement over the other post-64 actions which is significant. The receiver threads are larger and are no longer interrupted by the broaching of the locking lug raceways. The change was made to address problems which surfaced with the advent of the WSM cartridges but it was a worthwhile change regardless of caliber.
All in all, I still prefer the pre-64 action but consider the newest offering to be better than acceptable. GD And that, my friends, is the most qualified voice on this thread... good reading. I thought it was pretty damned educational. He sounds like he knows his chitt.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 367
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ddj, battue and BobinNH,
From an engineering standpoint the pre-'64 M70 is indeed inferior in its gas handling in that, in comparison to the Mauser M98, for example, it lacks the internal gas collar (C-collar) that mostly surrounds the bolt head, the thumb notch that allows gas to vent from the left lug raceway, and finally the bolt sleeve flange that deflects gas away from the shooter's face. Of course, commercial Mausers like the later FN and Zastava that have the H-collar seriously compromise gas handling by providing a big hole leading directly into the left lug raceway.
In fact the M70's bolt head design is very similar to the Springfield 1903, which was probably the model for the Winchester 54 which in turn led to the M70. Incidentally, I recently looked at a Kimber 84 and it has a screw-in C-flange that sits where the internal gas collar on the Mauser 98 is, and presumably is intended to serve the same function.
Having said all that, however, it's mainly something for rifle looneys to argue over, just like medieval theologians argued over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. From a practical point of view, given how good modern ammunition is, worrying about gas handling is equivalent to worrying about the chance of getting hit in the head by a meteor. It's probably happened to someone, somewhere, at some time, but really... At least, that's my opinion, I could be wrong... :-)
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 273
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Someone enlighten me.
I know the pre64s were a one piece bolt and bolt handle.
Which of the post 64s were two piece bolt and bolt handle and which were one piece?
This has intrigued me for years.
thx: Matt
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,162 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,162 Likes: 13 |
I feel compelled to comment on the gas-handling question:
I have had cases go in several rifles over the years, though not very many since I quit being a hot-rod handloader many years ago.
But cases have blown a very few times since, and always for mysterious reasons that couldn't be exactly determined. Once was in an H-ring FN Mauser and once was in a M70 Classic.
The H-ring Mauser did a fine job of gas handling; I barely felt any gas at all, and that just on the left side of my face. So yes, there is more to a 98's gas handling than the H- or C-ring.
Even with the gas block on the Classic, the M70 allowed a lot more gas to hit my face, along with a few bits of brass. I was wearing protective glasses--and always do--so there was no damage. But the experience didn't thrill me.
The pre-'64 has NOTHING to prevent gas and brass from coming down the left raceway into the shooter's face, but I have never had a case blow in a pre-'64, and still own and shoot a couple. But I do make sure that the brass or ammo is in very good shape. In fact I rarely shoot brass more than twice in either rifle.
Somebody also commented on the poor "gas-handling" of the Remington 700. I've had maybe 3 cases go in 700's over the years, and not once did any gas touch any part of me.
A couple of comments on triggers as well:
I've owned maybe 10-12 pre-'64's and can't remember one where the trigger was adjustable below 4 pounds. I did take some of those triggers apart and replace the spring.
Since other people have had pre-'64's with triggers that easily adjusted to below 4 pounds, obviously that experience isn't universal. However, unless they bought those rifles new (not very common), those triggers may have been modified already.
I do find it a lot easier to turn a screw on the South Carolina 70 than to take apart a pre-'64 trigger.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,701
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The Mauser shroud as stated is the last in a line of gas deflecting devices. The pre-98's lacked the flange that the 98 added. However, that shroud is a last resort. Unlike the Rem 700 which is designed to contain gases, the Mauser seeks to redirect escaping gas. The problem with the Model 70 is that there is nothing that prevents gas from running down the left siderail and past the shroud straight into the shooter's left eye. The Mauser had the shroud as mentioned, but before that the gas had to get past the huge bolt stop, and prior to that gas was bled off by the thumbcut.
Now, it is probably safe to say that brass today taken on the whole is better than that made when the Model 70 was designeded. But, it is not perfect and neither are shooters and reloaders. The June 2010 issue of handloader has a nice article showing all sorts of factory defects in brass. So, counting on your brass to never fail will be a big disappointment to some.
That said, one of my favorties is a Model 54 I own. Just be sensible and wear shooting glasses.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,606 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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I'll bet that after 50-75 years of use, the Classics will be as smooth as a pre-64 is now.  Bruce
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It's always great to have someone much more experienced like Mule Deer or Z1R to point out the errors of my ways :-).
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Just wanted to throw a quick note out about Pre-64 triggers. If you can track down a 1965 Gun Digest, Bob Waller had an article titled "Tuning the M70 Winchester". There's some good stuff on how to adjust its trigger and some info. on stock bedding. Waller states that a M70 trigger can be adjusted from about 2 pounds up safely. He thought a pull of 3-4 pounds was about right for normal hunting use.
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Thank you to Mule Deer and z1r.
I am from the same town as Frank De Haas and I spent many hours sitting in his house talking about rifles and guns. He was blind by this time so when I would take him a target to his house, he would run his fingers over the target and feel the holes to see how I shot. I asked him once about buying a pre 64 when I was 16 and looking for a big game rifle. He told me he would never recommend a pre 64 for a kid to hunt with for fear of them becoming blind like him. I never asked him if he had a bad experience with one but I remember talking about a design flaw. I wish I could sit and talk to him again. I must have asked such novice questions but he never made me feel inferior.
ddj
Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. - Henry David Thoreau
The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back. - Robert Ruark
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,812 |
I'll be the last to go against the experts when it comes to knowing the ins/out of a particular rifle design. I stress it a little more than JB when it comes to number of reloads. I usually quit at 5. Have a rifle smart friend who takes pride in how far he can go and laughs at me for throwing them away at 5. Too much going on inside that case for me to take the chance no matter which manufacturer. He is always searching around inside with a paper clip for a crack. Not worth the chance.
However, speaking of chance, almost everyday I go down the road between 25 to 60mph with another car coming at me doing the same at perhaps 10feet away. That worries me more than any pre 64 or case failing.
Wear your shooting glasses and keep you trigger clean is good advice.
Last edited by battue; 12/30/10.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Lots of good posts here...I don't profess to be any expert on these things as guys like Greydog and JB know far more than me about all these various rifles. I am not a collector...I am a user and been fortunate to own quite a few of all of them.Part of my afinity for pre 64's is that I have used them successfully for years and so I trust them, the same way some people have lucky hats,or wear mismatched socks when they pitch a baseball game... I have also had good semi-custom rifles built on the Classic action that were just as good and just as trustworthy in every way. My new Mashburn is built on Classic action,and after seeing the job Gene Simillion did on it,have to sayit is as nice,or nicer in every way as any pre 64 M70. The 7RM Classic the Redneck here put together for me is a fabulously accurate rifle that has never bobbled. He also did a great job on the trigger,which is reliable and safe and breaks like ice. I have posted a bunch on how much I like the new SC M70's,and how impressed I have been with the out of the box function and accuracy,and feel of the trigger. So,in the end when the OP asks which I prefer, I say I prefer the pre 64,and "here's why".....this is far different from an objective analysis of which is "best". I have my own notions,but that is all they are... And this is not to say the others are junk;the design is fundamentally the same,and if care is taken to make sure they work first time/every time, I doubt a guy can really go wrong with any of them...the stuff I have shot with the Classics has wound up just as dead as the one's killed with the pre 64... With any of the three, I think after a few hundred rounds of trouble free use, a guy could hunt very confidently with any of them and not worry
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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I agree with BobinNH...my preference is the pre-64...while the Classic could and most likely will do the job the ol' pre 64s have been doing it for well over 50 years...I'll keep taking my pre-64s into the game fields as long as I can hunt...just my opinion...
Last edited by ou76; 12/30/10.
"To pick a rifle and bullet for use on game by muzzle energy alone is, at best, foolish...and can be dangerous to your own health..." Bill Steigers, April 23, 1980
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Posts: 60,162 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,162 Likes: 13 |
I'll just note that right now I own two pre-'64's, and hunted with one of them for a week this fall. At the moment I don't own any post-64's, though have owned a number in the past.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Campfire Tracker
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I have a pre-'64 in 270 Super Grade and a newer Mod '70 Classic in 375 H&H and I can say this....I am just a Winchester nut case.I own more Winchester rifles and shotguns than any other make and wouldn't trade or sell any of them, but my heart is with the pre-'64 being a pre-1950 guy.
Jayco
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Fifty years from now,some folks will be saying the same things about Kimber Montana's and SC M70's......each generation has to have their own rifles,and what they consider to be "best"
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Tracker
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Geez Bob..I can't imagine a John Wayne movie with him carrying a Kimber...Kimber is going to have to come up with some Leverguns to even be in the running for the best of all time. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/WinchesterLogo.gif) That's not a Kimber!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/Charles-Russell-An-Indian-Chief-.jpg) Jayco
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 11,371 |
Few pre-64 or post-64 NH Model 70s are as accurate as the current FN Model 70s. Winchester finally got it right.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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Campfire Tracker
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Few pre-64 or post-64 NH Model 70s are as accurate as the current FN Model 70s. Winchester finally got it right. Swamptroll, you really don't have a clue what you are talking about. You should quit while you are ahead. Get ready for a bunch of posts talking about how accurate their older Model 70's are and were. Geez I even have a push-feed G-series that shoots as good as anything made now................................DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Folks can make up all kinds of crap. The facts stand.
Until the FN came along, an out of the box MOA Model 70 was a rare bird.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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Well mine a sample of one, but the pre 64 will out shoot the post 64 always. Factory ammo reloads etc. Again a sample of two rifles that I own and know well.
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