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Joined: Dec 2005
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
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Has anyone played with reduced small game loads in a .223 AR with a 1/9 twist?
I've been thinking of trying some loads for small game and a reduced load for close varmits and seeing what has worked for others.
I know that some of the reduced velocity Blue Dot loads are working at some fairly high pressure wonder if they would work the bolt in the AR?
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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I've tried them in a bolt gun ,But not in an AR .I guess they would not cycle the action.Maybe as a single shot.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The trick would be tweaking your small game load so that it coincided with the 25 or 50 yard zero on your AR. A 35-40 grain pill at about 2,100 FPS wouldn't cycle, but it would be much milder in report.
�When in doubt, I whip it out.� Uncle Ted
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I have been interested in this for a while. Are you talking about Blue Dot loads? Would the action not cycling have any adverse affects on the rifle?
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes."
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
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I've heard/read of the blue dot loads.
Nope, hand cycling doesn't affect anything at all with the AR.. IE not cycling it....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 210
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Campfire Member
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Blue dot loads will NOT cycle the action. But they are fun and cheap and quite to shoot. You can always cycle the action manually.
RECESSION: when your friend loses his job. DEPRESSION: when you lose your job. RECOVERY: when all these bad politicians lose their jobs.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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New Member
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New Member
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Try 6.5 Red Dot with 45 g bullet. 1" at 100. Be CAREFUL!! Very easy to double charge and you wont even notice. I blew up a nice bolt gun with ONLY "10 grains" Blue Dot and 55 gr bullet. The concept is sound and accuracy can be quite good. BUT! You have to PAY ATTENTION!! Blue Dot works well for a 243 squirrel rifle too. Your come ups are pretty minimal.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Not a bad idea to find a load about 55-60% of case volume, so you will notice an overflow if you double it.
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New Member
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New Member
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those percentages wont work with these powders. 4895 maybe but less versatile range of loads from what i read and more noise, speed than might be required
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Yes they will.
12.0 gr Blue Dot is about 60% fill, 34K psi (55gr bullet)
9.0 gr Unique is about 57% fill, 39K psi.
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I see what you are saying but that is way too hot for small game and quiet. Think 22 Hornet. If your calculations are correct that would surely improve chances of detecting an overcharge though. Have you actually weighed out the mentioned charges to check the math? They don't feel that bulky to me just shaking the cartridge. An accidental double at 6.5 is only 13 - about max for Blue Dot and over for Red. Pretty idiot proof. The near max loads you are suggesting have a lot of merit too but limit the versatility of tweaking accurate small game loads. Anywhere beyond the half max level requires absolute concentration.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm a fan of Unique for sub-loads. 17.5gr of Unique is full to the case mouth in my 223 brass, so a double charge of 9.0 gr will overflow. A charge of 9.0 gr under a 55gr bullet yields about 2200 fps from my 16" AR carbine. Forum member "Seafire" is a big user of Blue Dot for sub-loads, these are his notes: per request:
Dot Range Report: 223 Caliber ( Full )
Bullet Weights Tested: 1. 35 grain Hornady V Max 2. 40 grain Hornady Vmax 3. 45 grain Sierra SP 4. 50 grain Sierra SMP 5. 52 grain Sierra Boat Tail Match 6. 55 grain Winchester FMJ
Rifle Used: Ruger 77 Mk 2, VT 26 inch Barrel, Stainless Steel First yr Model
Case: Lake City Surplus, previously fired
Primer: Remington 6 �
Powder: Blue Dot
Charge Weight Tested: 4 grains to 14 grains.
Weather: Sunny, NO clouds, 80 degrees, NO wind,
Altitude: 2000 ft
Humidity: Very Low
Field Results:
35 grain Hornady V Max:
4 grs: 1284 fps 5 grs: 1488 fps 6 grs: 1862 fps 7 grs: 2163 fps 8 grs: 2392 fps
9 grs: 2636 fps 10 grs: 2722 fps 11 grs: 3076 fps 12 grs: 3205 fps 13 grs: NO Reading 14 grs: 3518 fps
Hornady 40 grain Vmax:
4 grs: 1161 fps 5 grs: 1538 fps 6 grs: 1798 fps 7 grs: 2148 fps
8 grs: 2243 fps 9 grs: 2539 fps 10 grs: 2771 fps 11 grs: 2956 fps
12 grs: 3013 fps 13 grs: 3218 fps 14 grs: 3375 fps
Sierra 45 grain SP
4 grs: 1239 fps 5 grs: 1447 fps 6 grs: 1688 fps 7 grs: 1880 fps
8 grs: 2118 fps 9 grs: 2363 fps 10 grs: 2553 fps 11 grs: 2811 fps
12 grs: 2875 fps 13 grs: 3008 fps 14 grs: 3164 fps
Sierra 50 grains SMP
4 grs: 1064 fps 5 grs: 1345 fps 6 grs: 1624 fps 7 grs: 1788 fps
8 grs: 2033 fps 9 grs: 2257 fps 10 grs: 2466 fps 11 grs: 2655 fps 12 grs: 2779 fps
13 grs: 2882 fps 14 grs: 3038 fps
Sierra 52 grain Boattail Hollow Point Match
4 grs: 1061 fps 5grs: 1460 fps 6 grs: 1632 fps 7 grs: 1916 fps
8 grs: 2142 fps 9 grs: 2225 fps 10 gr: NO Reading 11 grs: 2673 fps
12 grs: 2782 fps 13 grs: 2879 fps 14 grs: 3012 fps
Winchester 55 grain FMJ
4 grs: 896 fps 5 grs: 1264 fps 6 grs: 1568 fps 7 grs: 1825 fps 8 grs: 1994 fps
9 grs: 2201 fps 10 grs: 2328 fps 11 grs: 2453 fps
12 grs: 2677 fps 13 grs: 2821 fps 14 grs: 2915 fps
Notes:
1. IN the evaluation of the 223, I came further to the conclusion of the versatility of the 223 in the use of training new shooters, and for a very versatile varmint caliber. 2. Essentially the 223 can be loaded to the specs of a 22 Long rifle, a 218 Bee, a 221 Fireball, a 222 Remington, a 22 Hornet, and a 22 Win Mag., while allowing the shooter to be able to pick the type of bullet that he prefers. 3. Bullets were limited to use of 35 grains to 55 grains. Heavier bullets will not serve any purpose unless a 223 is to be used for deer hunting. I do not believe that their would be a significant difference in the use of a 55 grain bullet vs a 60 grain bullet. 4. The recoil on the lighter loads using 4 to 6 grains of powder had minimal recoil if any at all. These would be ideal for young shooters being trained. 5. Noise level on the lighter loads ( 4 to 6 grains) were on par with a rim fire. An increase in noise level was very noticeable above 7 grains, but still very acceptable. ( No sounding like a rim fire any more)
Noted Observations:
1. It was noted but not considered part of the testing, with a tree used as a back stop for some of the testing, that all bullets ( 45 to 55 grains)penetrated thru the tree at a distance of 20 yds. 2. The diameter of the tree was measured at 5 inches. 3. The 40 grain Vmax loads failed to penetrate the tree at loads above 10 grs, above 2771 fps. However at 10 grains and less, the bullets penetrated thru the tree and did a large amount of damage ( like turning the wood into tooth picks) on the exit side of the tree. The penetration stopped at the 5 grain load.
Some of the Author�s Conclusions:
1. I learned some significant items beyond the versatility of the 223 with the bullets tested, but focusing on its use in the field, got some ideas. 2. A light rifle such as a Winchester Featherweight or Rugers Compact model with a 16.5 inch barrel or the Ultra Light with a 20 inch barrel would make a good combo with the use of Blue Dot. 3. Since the powder is burned cleanly in the first 10 to 12 inches of barrel, the shorter barrels are not handicappiing velocity in the lighter shorter rifles. 4. The penetration of the 40 grain Vmax into the tree did make me ponder the use of those plastic tip varmint rounds as potential loads for small deer for youth shooters. Just like my observations in the larger calibers, the plastic tipped bullet seem to do a lot more damage, at velocities under 2700 fps. The Vmax surprised me. This is a decision any shooter will have to test on his own and make their own decisions. I am just passing on that I saw potential merit in the application. 5. Although one has to weigh out the potential of Plastic Tipped Varmint bullets on bigger game like deer and antelope, some of these loads in real life use, utilizing Barnes�s X bullets in 22 caliber I can recommend. They make a 45 grain, 50 grain and 53 grain bullet. The way I saw much better penetration and more damage in wood, at the lower range velocities, 2200 to 2700 fps, this would make a good deer load in many parts of the USA, and recoil is minimal.
I did not test any bigger bullets as I feel that those tested would be represent the best potential with the powder. 60, 63, 64, 65 grain bullets and then the larger match bullets did not give what I considered useful velocity when I have shot them before with Blue Dot, in respect to their field design uses.
Updated Feb 2008
cheers seafire
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've used blue dot loads in the ar, won't cycle it, but fun and accurate. I don't recall the charge weight, it was a 35 gr v-max, no recoil, quiet and very accurate.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've got some older loading data from Dupont that doesn't get as much velocity as Seafire does with much slower burning powders. For instance, they got 3040 and 3085 with 4759 and 4227 at 17.5 grs. with the Sierra 45 gr. bullet at maximum pressure. So, I'd suggest using that data very carefully. Lyman said in their older 44th edition that the only loads that would operate the action on their tested AR-15 were those IMR 4227 loads that were at or near maximum. With a 45 gr. cast bullet, they got 2314 at their maximum of 14 grs. Starting load was 11 grs. and was their most accurate at 2000 fps. I think I'd start there. E
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Really don't get why anyone wants reduced loads in anything. Just get a lighter caliber. Try a .22 Hornet or a .218 Bee. Screwing around with various loads insures you won't know what load is hitting where at any given time.
One gun, one load.
O
Too old to suffer fools
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Can't argue with that..........if you're [bleep]' brain-dead.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Really don't get why anyone wants reduced loads in anything. Just get a lighter caliber. Try a .22 Hornet or a .218 Bee. Screwing around with various loads insures you won't know what load is hitting where at any given time.
One gun, one load.
O Some folks still got a lot to learn.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Usually the one gun one load sorts don't do much shooting, and shouldn't be giving advice, but your mileage may very.
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New Member
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New Member
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It's handy to have two rifles rolled into one on occasion. Windage will likely be off a little between your high power load and small game so set it to suit the smaller target. Modest guns like 223 and 243 are most versatile and practical for this due to such small powder and lead requirements. Used to be a lot cheaper than 22 magnum but that seems to be changing. Even brain dead with no memory most can still read the come ups if taped to the stock. Just remember to turn it back...
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep, just as easy to dial a correction on for a reduced load as it is to dial in corrections for range and wind....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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