I recently had a guy, return a rifle build and upon shooting it I notice a lot of web stretch and had trouble full lenght sizing the case , that's what set me off too something being ascue, anyhow I ordered a go gauge and vice and wrench to see what was going on, after receiving the tools and pulling this thing apart, I proceded to check headspace using the recoil lug sent with the rifle , unaltered, I was able to put 2 peices of masking tape and 1 piece of scotch tape on their and close the bolt, what do you think ?? excessive or feild gauge material , now this was on a m700 and the guy was supposed to cut me and set me up for a minimum spec. chamber, I miked this out to 10 thousands over the go gauge, I didn't order a no go gauge, and don't know the difference between them, I honestly think there was more like 12 to 14 1000's in their, this could probrably have been dangerous and hurt someone ?? this guy came highly recommended from a source that is making some of the most sought after barrel's out their today, I know everybody has a bad day, but this is extreme, I know your all scratching your head's going why didn't you just call and send the rifle back for him to check or correct it ?? well that may sound easy , but I initially waited 2 year's for this guy to get this project done, I haven't even called him to tell him, I just said you know what I am going to fix this myself and go on, so I got some wet sanding paper and you got it ,sanded that puppy down 10 thousands or so, the recoil lug that is, put it back together and that rifle is shooting fine, what do you think I should do about this guy, call him out or let it be ?? I know this is [bleep] up , but hey it get's worse , he also built a rifle for my wife, and sent it too me when completed, so I shot it, but when I extracted the case their was a distinct ring all the way around the case, called him on that one and sent it to him for fixing, couple weeks later got it home, shot it, only too find, you got it excessive headspace, had to do the same thing with this gun, I had two rifle's built by two different smith's in the same cartridge, one for me and one for her, both were to be min. spec chamber's , the other guy's headspace right on the $, place a peice of scotchtape on the go gauge,bang the bolt doesn't close, just like it should be about 2 thousands the other guy 12 or more, come on , just shiit work Ha, anyhow sorry to be long winded, but sometime's you don't get what you paid for you get [bleep], guy's I only bring this up because if your going to take somebody's $ try and at least do a good job, it's not like their were any time restraints, I think what happened is this guy is into building custom high $ rigs total build's $3000 + rig's, and I came to him in a lull if you will and asked him to do a lowly rebarrel job and their was no incentive to do a good job when thing's got busy so he half assed it and wala you get the shaft, he is just lucky that I didn't get hurt or I would have had his ass, oh yea he goes by the initials of HF and if your thinking of using such a guy avoid it like the plague , their I had my moment and I feel better, and the funny thing is he seemed like a nice guy and thought we had a good repour over the 2 year wait, do your homework before you spend you cash !! sorry to be so long winded it felt like therapy and it just all came out. oh yea and the funny thing is I paid him in full up front, 1500 big ones go figure
There are other things to be aware of on a 700Rem. if you were able to remove 10thos or more off the recoil lug with sand paper, which must have been quite a feet. Then you also move the bolt face into the barrel. You may have to remove some metal from the face of you bolt. If you don't have to---I would say this guy is way out of line on more than just head space. You should have someone with a lathe help you out.
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
yea tell me about the whao, I have shot the gun and thought I may have problems with piercing primer's, but so far so good, I thought that by taking a few thousands off the lug that would reduce headspace, what else should I be looking for ??? I am not a smith, this is the 1st time I have ever done anything like this, I just couldn't send this gun back to this guy anymore, I have lost all faith in him and wanted to try this before going with someone else, I would really appreciate any help, man I am all ear's, the gun it seem's was touched up around the action, bolt face ,back of lug's, I am going to shoot it tommorow again and see exactly where I am at with it being concentric, thus far I have shot it at only 60 yrd's and it group well and brass looked good, honest to god guy's when I shot this initially,I tried to full lenght size the cases and they were so long with headspace and web stretch that I couldn't get a case inside the die all the way , the die was all the way down to the shell holder , minus less than a qaurter turn and their was still an quite a bit left outside of the die 1/8 inch plus, I thought maybe it's the die lenght, then I started looking into the headspace issue and that's were I am at now
HOLY [bleep]! I am no gunsmith but for a brief time in my life (3 years) I was a machinist and I have spun a thing or two on a lathe. 14+ thousandths off. Was he friggin drunk, guessing or intentionally screwing it up? He should be told how screwed up his work was and asked how and why it happened. Anyone who is a machinist/gunsmith and has any pride in their work would want to know if they dicked something up that bad and would want the opportunity to make good on it. Before I had someone touch it or do anything myself I would tell him what is going on. Maybe it's something simple but it sure doesn't sound like it.
yea your probably right, so here is what I am going to do, tommorrow I am going to call this guy and tell him the situation and see how he wants to proceed, if he throws a .200 or ever a .190 lug in this thing he is going to [bleep], I am telling you that before I started sanding I had .188 and I shave dit down to .178 and I still have 4 thousands of HS, I can get a piece of blue painter's tape on the back of a go gauge and still close the bolt after MOD's, the funny thing is my wife's rifle wasn't much better, easiest way to determine HS at this junctor, screw in the barrel till you get around 2 thousands and measure the gap between barrel shoulder and action face I suppose , and you have your recoil lug measurement, at present which is .176 for two thous. I would prefer the .200 stock lug or .25 and that is going to require some lath work, well see,will keep you informed, thank's for listening
And, by sanding, disassembling, shade-tree-smithing, continuing to shoot it and mess with it, you're only decreasing your chances of a good resolution with the guy.
Sanding the lug, without taking other measures along with it, sets you up for heartache. This thing needs chucked up and done right, not guessing at it on the kitchen table.
If he genuinely screwed up, and you sent it back immediately, you'd have a solid case.
At this point, he's not out of line to wash his hands of the whole thing.
You need to deal with your smith before you have heart failure. If it is out of spec it will be easy to repair. I certainly wouldn't fool with the recoil lug. You will be a week surfacing it and it won't be flat. Butch
Lets see, you bought a go gauge, a vise and a wrench and "sanded" 10 1000's off the lug using layers of tape and the go gauge as a guide. At what point was you planning on taking an actual measurement so you know exactly what you have?
Lock, Stock and Barrel gunworks SLC, Ut USMC 69-73
"This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life."
Lets see, you bought a go gauge, a vise and a wrench and "sanded" 10 1000's off the lug using layers of tape and the go gauge as a guide. At what point was you planning on taking an actual measurement so you know exactly what you have?
And....I bet both sides of the lug are still square with the receiver...
guy's let me tell you something if your in the business of putting together hyperacurrate rifle's that will shoot 1/4 inch or less at 100 yrd's and you mess up to this level, where someone might get hurt, you don't belong in this business, and to do it on 2 seperate rifle's,and don't think I am frothing at the mouth on this, yea I may be doing shade tree mechanic work, but I would rather learn from minor mistakes than give someone so blatently disingenuine the chance to correct his major F -- up after waiting the 2 year's I did to get this peice of shiit, you spend your hard earned coin and tell me you feel any different , like I said we all have bad day's but , this is just lack of atterntion to detail and detail in this game is where he make's his living and people are putting their trust and $ on it . sorry if i offend but my gun's have been back and forth to this guy several time 's and their still not right and everytime they get sent it cost me $ around 60 buck's from alaska , as we speak I am out 250 in this thing for shipping and a vise and wrench to figure out what should have been done initially, and I either put my trust in him again or I am out another 500 buck's to have someone correct his lack of attention or intention to ship it this way in the first place, at this point I may take some measurement's and just order 2 lug's cut to those spec.'s from ptg and call it a day, because it;s going to cost me the same for shipping, can you see either way I get the screw!! trust me guy's I had 6 rifle's trued and rebarrel last year and 4 of them from a different smith and they are the best rifle's I have ever shot, and then there's this guy, I am living with the 2 extremes on this one and $ don't grow on tree's for me, I must have been kidding myself I thought if you used a professional you got professional result's, what was I thinking, sorry for the soap guy's thank's for listening, and yes I put a mic on the lug, and when was the last time you tried to sand a lug for 10 thou. it took all of 20 minute's and your right it's not sqaure, but it gave me a starting point as to what I will need to correct a long chamber, look guy's like I said I am not a smith, but if I get a squared lug cut to the dimension's to give me 3 thou. clearance and he did sqaure everything else, shouldn't this work???
Probably not. The bolt will hit the back of the barrel or will probably to close to the back of the barrel. If I were you and I'm not, I would send it to Redneck, Malm, or one of several others that frequent this board. Butch
I would take the loss from this smith and find another that hopefully can fix what you have. Hopefully the new smith can fix this mess you have on both rifles. On the excessive head space is this an issue of the chamber being reamed too deep in the barrel? Would taking some stock off the barrel work and resetting it in the receiver????? Again, I never was a gunsmith but had some friends that were and watched from afar.
Geeez.. Look, I can sympathize with you for part of this deal.. But what you're trying to do now is only going to make this a never-ending series of 'corrections' on items you really have no clue as to what you're doing and why.. IMVHO you're only going to become a whole lot more frustrated...
IIWY, I'd immediately consider taking this rifle and sending it to the guy you had four rifles done well and have him get this straightened out..
Just my .02..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
just got back from the range and this is the target, shot with modified lug and new headspace, as we can see it seem's he may have sqaured it up, just got sloppy with reaming and went too deep ? anyhow with these result's I think I will order 2 lug's tommorrow with the appropriate thickness and proceed from their,my wife's gun shot well, mine o.k, the brass looked fine, no primer issue's, will try to post pick's of cases pre and post changes,anyhow at 2 hundred yard's thing's opened up a bit, possibly because of the slop in the lug and probrably my shooting, hoping this will tighten up with the new lug's, will keep you posted , thanks' sorry about the size of the picture I am new to this as well computer challenged, am trying though, wife's 3 shot measure's .245 and the 280 at .408 for three shot's at 100 yrd's, these are the first loads tried out of these gun's, Guy's am I way off line here with these result's and how I am thinking with correcting this??? as far as I see it if the chamber was cut too deep which is a no brainer here, than why wouldn't using new lug with the appropriate thickness compensate for the HS and correct thing's?? what am I missing???, I shouldn't have to mess with anything should I, the bolt face is a constant and there is enough room to thread the barrel in to compensate for the length issue then what am I missing, other than alot of experience here,
Here are the cases just shot, one on the left was brand new R/P , the other 2 are from previous firing's and as you can see the distinct line around the case on top of the web, as compared to the left one with new HS, beleive it or not the 2 on the right were fired a couple of times and I would imagine there was some brass flow back to the correct web size, you can see the left one is starting to think about web stretch, but that distinct line just isn't as pronounced, after seeing this , what do you guy's think, should I go ahead with my plan or just bite the bullet and send them to my other guy ???
So the concensus is box it up and send it to my other smith for the real deal, this guy has been great to work with, I am going to call him tommorrow and see how busy he is, you know these are good components and I want it to be right for a lifetime's use , what chap's my asz is that this guy did 90% of the work and screw'd me on the last 10% , oh well live and learn , thank's everyone for your time and good advice ! you know the kicker is this , this guy is retired army and aware that my wife is active A/F , a lifer and a dam good one, and I was building her this 260 for her and he knew it and that I want to get her into long range shooting and hunting, do you think maybe he would have put forth a little extra for a fellow comrad, POS-- it will all work out in the end!!!
Just because your wife is in the service means nothing about quality that a smith does. He should do it on all of his work. My Son just retired from the AF and his wife had 10yrs., I am very pro military. Butch
I notice a lot of web stretch and had trouble full lenght sizing the case , that's what set me off too something being ascue, anyhow I ordered a go gauge and vice and wrench to see what was going on, after receiving the tools and pulling this thing apart, I proceded to check headspace using the recoil lug sent with the rifle , unaltered, I was able to put 2 peices of masking tape and 1 piece of scotch tape on their and close the bolt, what do you think ??
I think you need to use shim stock before you fuxxor something up!
The tape trick works fine for rifles that have little or no camming action, like a FAL, but it doesn't work at all for bolt action rifles. Been there, done that. You need shim stock, even if it is pieces of cans that you cut up.
I have a Mauser that swallowed a Go + about 5 pieces of masking tape. Took it to a gunsmith and he stuck one piece of .004" shim on the Go with a little grease. It wouldn't close on that!
Barry these are all thing's I did not know and that is why it's going to a pro ! did anyone look at the picture's of the brass and do they confirm excess HS with what you see I would like to know for the future, and I am sure it wouldn't hurt the public to have an idea of what it look's like, theirfore maybe some DAD wont put his SON or daugther behind the wheel of something in question that looks similar and in potentially harms way, especially with guy's out there doing this kind of work and letting it go through their door's to the public, like I said he came highly recommended by a prominent member of the shooting community, a guy who makes his living at it everyday and is in touch with the public and sending them to this guy for work, that's the scary thing is this kind of work is being encouraged and that's why I felt so strongly about bringing it out, yea one I was p.o.D but two nobody should have to deal with a potential accident waiting to happen , one rifle maybe a mistake , but two, down right complacency or just poor technique and not to worry I am going to call him , so that perhaps he will be more careful in the future and to see if he will compensate me to correct his the shoody work, but with this kind of character I don't expect much .
As far as compensation goes, I wouldn't hold my finger in any particular body cavity waiting for that to happen since you've already altered the work. Either let him correct it or move on would be my suggestion at this point. Good luck though!
Lock, Stock and Barrel gunworks SLC, Ut USMC 69-73
"This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life."
Hey Malm did you look at the brass and is that indicative of such HS and if so did it appear excessive, I look at brass that come's out of the other rifle's built by the good smith and their is definitly a significant difference in what I see, if you saw the same from a rifle someone brought to you would you have concern??? or was this thing safe and I cost myself alot of time and anqiuse for nothin, like I said I just couldn't go back to this guy,
If the 'smith did indeed ream the chamber long then that should be readily apparent and no amount of fiddling with the recoil lug will alter that fact.
The 'smith who did this should at least be made aware of his error.
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea. I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
Just talked to my good smitty and he is gonna make everything right in the world, cause that 's the kind of guy he is , Thank you RWS --- not to worry nasqam he will get a call, and some cases to keep for his collection and a very polite note thanking him for his overwhelming concern for other peolpe's shiit and his professionalism on workmanship to all those thing's I will make him aware !! I,m sure he will have a much better day after hearing from me. Oh yea did I forget to mention that this guy took two years to make all this grand work happen, I don't remember him asking me to bendover at anytime in our business transaction??? I surely would have remember that !!
338ak, You might want to invest in a no-go gauge if you want to check the headspace on your rifles. You also might want to make a chamber cast. When you say you wet sanded .010" off the recoil lug, do you mean you sanded the back of the locking lugs on the bolt? First you say you measured it to be .010" over and then you say it could have been between .012" - .014"? I wouldn't bad mouth this guy after you say you don't know a go from a no-go. You really should have called him instead of buying a wrench and a go gauge. You need to have your new gunsmith lap the locking lugs before he tries to install your barrel. There is no telling what you have done to it. Remember a gun is a glorified pipe bomb. Respect it! whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
Whelennut, 338ak had a chamber which was cut too long. On a Remington you can shorten headspace by making the recoil lug thinner. It's not the proper way to do it but a thinner lug will result in shorter headspace. This is true for all rifles with a recoil lug sandwiched between the barrel shoulder and the action (except for those with a barrel nut).
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea. I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
The tape on the back of a GO gauge is a long time trick to simulate a NO GO gauge. I don't like it but for most cartridges the difference between the GO and the NO GO is .004" and two layers of Scotch tape equals about .004". I don't like it because the tape is too compressible.
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea. I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
Thanks for clarifying. I guess I got lit up because he was trashing his gunsmith. I think you are right when you say trying to measure .014" with layers of tape would be tricky at best. Especially when you are looking for a minimum spec chamber. Actually I guess thinning the lug would work. I always thought the proper way was to correct a long chamber was to set the barrel back 1 turn and then proceed from there. My brain was in Mauser mode I guess. I apologize! whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
The only thing I would be worried about thinning the recoil lug would be the bolt nose clearance and front of lug to barrel clearances. When he shaves that amount off the recoil jug he is moving 3 pretty close tolerence measurements. Had I chambered that rifle ne would not be able to close his bolt after removing just .005. I have headspaced barrels using my surface grinder to thin the recoi lugs, but always checked the other clearances as well.
I have never taken a barrel off a Rem. 700, nor have I ever installed one. I can understand how shortening the recoil lug would lessen headspace.
What I don't understand is where the barrel and receiver ring threads end so the barrel can be turned a bit deeper into the receiver.
I also don't know how much space is between the bolt nose and the recess cut into the barrel. Would not the front of the bolt contact the rear of the barrel is the barrel was screwed in very far.
As far a contacting the gunsmith that did the work, after waiting 2 years and he still messed it up, I wouldn't want anything more to do with him, even if he agreed to correct it for free. I just wouldn't trust him to do it right the second time.
The fired cartridges do not look, going by the pictures, that there is any web stretching. That mark looks to me like the junction where the body of the case expanded against the chamber, in front of the web. The web area did not expand where the case is thicker. This is common with rimless cases loaded to normal pressure.
I wonder what the bolt nose to barrel clearance started out at if .010" could be taken from the recoil lug and the bolt nose still doesn't contact the barrel recess!
Sounds like the gunsmith had other things on his mind the day he chambered this barrel.
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea. I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
I wonder if maybe he slipped the wrong lug on the barrel, would explain a lot. I usually end up taking .003 or so to square up factory lugs when I use them. He may have swapped one he had squared on a surface grinder for one that was not squared. I also got to wondering if the guy used a .280 go gauge instead of a .280 -.004 go gauge.
Another thing to consider is that there could be something wrong with the loading dies. I have had to send in a set of dies before and I have another set that needs to go back, but I can live with the problem for now. At any rate if these things interest you grab a copy of the NRA Gunsmithing Guide. Mine was published in 1982 but Mausers have not changed much since then. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
I was thinking the same thing about the recoil lug.
I don't understand your last sentence though.
As far as I can tell this is not a .280 Ackley Improved but is a regular .280 Rem.
If this is right then the regular .280 Rem GO gauge would be the one to use. If it were a AI chamber then the GO gauge would need to be the .280 Rem GO gauge -.004 and the regular .280 Rem GO would become the Ackley NO GO.
Am I missing something here?
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea. I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
The rifle should have been sent back to the smith in the same condition received. No self made repairs unless you have a lathe and know what you are doing. I believe the recoil lug should have been left alone and the barrel tenon faced off one thread and the recoil lug shoulder re-cut and the barrel screwed back on . If the bolt wouldn't close after this procedure then the bolt nose recess re-cut a little deeper. You should have let the guy who built the rifle correct the problem . Sending it back couldn't have cost more than you payed for for a barrel vice , wrench and head-space gauge. I just don't believe you could sand .010 off the lug by hand and keep it square to the shoulder unless you where just dam lucky.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
to all the guy's out there I must have been dam lucky, this guy doesn't use aftermarket lug's for the price he charges he is too cheap, he grinds them supposedly and then reuses them, and as far as their not being enough room to thread the barrel in after the removal of material on the lug, it took about 20 minutes to remove the 10 thous. , the lug is at .186 right now as I mic it just yesturday and it's consistant throughout the lug top/ bottom/ side's, I got lucky, but when I started this I could place 2 pieces of blue masking tape and a piece of scotch tape on the back of a go gauge, of the original unaltered lug and close the bolt and it wasn't a crush fit, listen I don't have a lathe or anything that could alter this rifle other than a piece of sandpaper, right now as it sit's I have been able to screw the barrel in as far as to almost hide the 280 rem. stamp mark on the barrel and the go gauge still works/ and the bolt closes, and right now I am still able to load rounds and fire without issue, brass still look's good post firing , no primer issue's for pressure sign's and I running 53 grn.s IMR 4831 out of it, that's 90% case load, upper moderate load, I can take new unfired case and run it through this thing like shyte through a goose , no crush fit, no resistance, it's just deep, and the brass picture's show it , I put 20 rounds through it tonight, you know alot of you guy's churp up and say I should have sent it back to him and never touch it, but how many time's do I give this guy a chance these rifle's have been back there now 3 time's already for screw up's on his part, the 1st a burr in my wife's gun all the way around the chamber just below the shoulder, that you could feel when you ran your finger nail over it, and at that time he told me he would fix it, I expressed to him at that time that I was hoping for a min. spec chamber and that maybe a quick fix might not be the answer, this was for my wife's 260, a nice tactical rig for long range fun/ hunt stuff, and then it come's back to me well long chambered, it's cases look the same as the 280's web stretch, I know because I have another built by a second smith and his cases don't have that and this rifle and mine came home on different month's if you will not together, the other issue is I originally ordered the 280 in a rem. mag. barrel contour , well guess what he send's me a #2 fluted instead, I take that one and go on a hunt with it after waiting over a year, when I got home from the hunt I called him and expressed my discontent with this barrel, because he said if i am not happy with it he would make it right, and I have to say he was a man of his word and did get me the barrel I wanted, but then he went and deep chamber it and that is where we are at now !! all in all this took and is still taking the better part of 2 1/2 year's, can you feel my pain brother, I only hope no one out their in rifle land ever has to deal with kind of chit..... oh and one last thing, he actually encouraged me to buy a wrench and vise throughtout our long line of communication's , I kid you not, this should have been my first sign eh ! I guess he thought I would need it later, Dam I missed that one . No chit he really did, you know he seeed like a nice enough guy, I don't get it , we would talk on the phone for 20 minutes easy , multiple time's, I really didn't see anything like this coming, I was extremely patient, call every 3 or 4 month's to say hello , he kept telling me the barrel's were unavailable, no barrel's, heck I got 4 barrel's out of Norm and Ken at Brux in half the time this guy was able to get 2 out his supplier, by the way, the boy's at Brux are fantastic, can't say enough good about them Boy's and their barrel's shoot !!
bea175 it took me 20 minutes and 2 peices of wet( blackstuff) sand paper and it was done on a flat surface, like my dinning room table, up here in alaska it's cold and sometime's you gotta move the shop into the house to get thing's done, you can't blame a guy for that, desperation is the mother of all invention, that's my cree !! I could have used desperate time's call for desperate measure's but that so cliche .
to all the guy's out there I must have been dam lucky, this guy doesn't use aftermarket lug's for the price he charges he is too cheap, he grinds them supposedly and then reuses them, and as far as their not being enough room to thread the barrel in after the removal of material on the lug, it took about 20 minutes to remove the 10 thous. , the lug is at .186 right now as I mic it just yesturday and it's consistant throughout the lug top/ bottom/ side's, I got lucky, but when I started this I could place 2 pieces of blue masking tape and a piece of scotch tape on the back of a go gauge, of the original unaltered lug and close the bolt and it wasn't a crush fit, listen I don't have a lathe or anything that could alter this rifle other than a piece of sandpaper, right now as it sit's I have been able to screw the barrel in as far as to almost hide the 280 rem. stamp mark on the barrel and the go gauge still works/ and the bolt closes, and right now I am still able to load rounds and fire without issue, brass still look's good post firing , no primer issue's for pressure sign's and I running 53 grn.s IMR 4831 out of it, that's 90% case load, upper moderate load, I can take new unfired case and run it through this thing like shyte through a goose , no crush fit, no resistance, it's just deep, and the brass picture's show it , I put 20 rounds through it tonight, you know alot of you guy's churp up and say I should have sent it back to him and never touch it, but how many time's do I give this guy a chance these rifle's have been back there now 3 time's already for screw up's on his part, the 1st a burr in my wife's gun all the way around the chamber just below the shoulder, that you could feel when you ran your finger nail over it, and at that time he told me he would fix it, I expressed to him at that time that I was hoping for a min. spec chamber and that maybe a quick fix might not be the answer, this was for my wife's 260, a nice tactical rig for long range fun/ hunt stuff, and then it come's back to me well long chambered, it's cases look the same as the 280's web stretch, I know because I have another built by a second smith and his cases don't have that and this rifle and mine came home on different month's if you will not together, the other issue is I originally ordered the 280 in a rem. mag. barrel contour , well guess what he send's me a #2 fluted instead, I take that one and go on a hunt with it after waiting over a year, when I got home from the hunt I called him and expressed my discontent with this barrel, because he said if i am not happy with it he would make it right, and I have to say he was a man of his word and did get me the barrel I wanted, but then he went and deep chamber it and that is where we are at now !! all in all this took and is still taking the better part of 2 1/2 year's, can you feel my pain brother, I only hope no one out their in rifle land ever has to deal with kind of chit..... oh and one last thing, he actually encouraged me to buy a wrench and vise throughtout our long line of communication's , I kid you not, this should have been my first sign eh ! I guess he thought I would need it later, Dam I missed that one . No chit he really did, you know he seeed like a nice enough guy, I don't get it , we would talk on the phone for 20 minutes easy , multiple time's, I really didn't see anything like this coming, I was extremely patient, call every 3 or 4 month's to say hello , he kept telling me the barrel's were unavailable, no barrel's, heck I got 4 barrel's out of Norm and Ken at Brux in half the time this guy was able to get 2 out his supplier, by the way, the boy's at Brux are fantastic, can't say enough good about them Boy's and their barrel's shoot !!
My concern is not headspace, but how much of the case is unsupported. Pull the bolt, measure from the front of the lugs to the front of the bolt nose. Pull the barrel back off the rifle and measure the depth of the bolt nose relief. Then with the bolt installed and fully in battery measure from the front of the lugs to the action face. Then with the recoil on the barrel measure from the recoil lug to the end of the barrel.
If your referring to recoil; lug it would be a stock remington that was sent with the gun and is now .186 thick from mod's , and the other demension's are #1front lug to bolt face .140 -- #2 front of barrel to front of recoil lug is .690 where it would touch the reciever #3 and from the front of bolt face where the firing pin is to the front of the bolt is .140 give or take 1or 2 tous. kind of hard getting those measurement's with just a pen head and a micrometer I think these are all that you wanted o.k. from front of action to front of bolt lug in battery is .635 I hope this help's Guy's my bad it took me a while to find the bolt nose relief and appears close to the .140 , give or take a couple thous. kind of hard getting this one with my limited tool's these # don't make sense do they ???, but that is what they measured, but how does .690 fit into .635 ??? what am I missing , oh teach me obey one I can see that the bolt recess and the bolt lug's mesh with the barrel bolt nose recess, that seem's to work , so then the ? is the other 2 # 's that I am a littl fuzzy with ? I can see that .140 seems to be a common denominator here between 3 essential components for strength, my other build's on 700 action's seem to have a little more like .150, I imagine this can be compensated for without issue?
Guy's my # 's add up to what is going on, if I thread the barrel in all the way to where it stop's against the action I get a recoil lug gap of .133 and if I back the barrel out to where a go gauge can fit inside the chamber and the bolt closes I get .183 and if I give 2 thous. each for clearance I am right there with my mod. lug .186 with 1 thous. of play, all I know is that with these # 's I am not getting the case stretch like before , I really think he deep throated this one so to speak, it's a shame, perhap's it was only 10 thous. of play in this thing, 10 thous. too much in my book, I got a lesson in chamber and action demension's though I guess that's worth something, if I see it again I 'l have an Idea of what may be causing it .. Thank's guy's let me know what you come up with, after thinking on this awhile if my # are correct and the chamber is 10 thous. out or too long with the initial lug then in order to correct this you either use a thinner lug or take 10 thous. off the barrel and the barrel shoulder to correct for headspace, I wonder if the .140 on the front of the bolt lug and barrel recess thru his #'s out of sinc, especially if .150 is the norm for the m700 that extra 10 thous. not acounted for would give us what I have, in other word's if their was another 10 thous. off the barrel recess and he chambered for the usual .150 , you have the additional 10, anyhow he still should have checked the chamber with a gauge , in this case a no go would have told him he was out. I think???
If your referring to recoil; lug it would be a stock remington that was sent with the gun and is now .186 thick from mod's ,
Unless Remington has changed their recoil lugs, the stock lug is .187 ish, so how do you get .010? All your numbers would be right, just maybe in the wrong sequence, say .001?
Lock, Stock and Barrel gunworks SLC, Ut USMC 69-73
"This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life."
338 AK I am sorry for jumping on you the other day. I was thinking back to when I had a difficult customer in the past. It was not right for me to take it out on you. I have never met your gunsmith, but I keep thinking he might have a drinking problem. It must be very frustrating. You could order books and tools from Brownells and work on your own rifles. Hopefully you have another rifle to shoot in the meantime. I am sure you could UPS it to one of the gunsmiths on this board and they could do a better job than your EX gunsmith. Nobody likes to finish a project that was started by somebody else because you end up starting from scratch and cannot assume anything is correct. If I were you I would ship it to someone competent, and you can build your next project after you have the proper tools. Good Luck , whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
Malm, I just mic.ed 2 of my factory lug's on rifle's that have never been apart, and they are .190 to .191 , pretty close to the .187 you refer, I can't negate that , but you can,t negate the fact that I was able to get 2 + peices of blue masking tape on the back of a go gauge and close the bolt and you can't negate the stretch on the brass in the picture's , I know your arguing the 10 thous. , you know what 5 day's ago I didn't commit that demension to memory, I should have it would be offly handi right now, I admit I was under the impression that .200 was a factory lug , with 2 thous. ground from each side that would have given us the .196, perhap's he did use a aftermarket lug I honestly can;t say, I remember him telling me he didn't use them, but you know what if he did, that would give us the extra 10 thous., he may have use one on this build, easy enough to do when your a guy doing multile build,s each week and there's part's from multiple build's laying around the shop, you know Malm your starting to make me feel as if I might of been a little hard on the guy , starting to See the Err in my way, You know at first I was pist, but, it really wasn't my intention to come on here and bad mouth a smith, I wanted you guy's to see what I had going on and give me your honest opinion as to what you thought it might be, I wanted to show you picture's of the brass and ask you about the amount of tape on the go gauge issue, Bottom line is I probrably should have called him and sent it too him to fix , but man that just gave me a BAD feeling and that's where you guy's came in, not to worry they on their way to Doctor for some TLC,
338AK I cannot figure what your measuring, probably because my description of wht to measure is lacking.
Here is what you want.
You want the bolt nose cut out to be equal or up to .005 more than the bolt nose.
You want the length of the barrel tennon, minus the thickness of the lug to be about .005 shorter than the distance from the front of the lug in battery to the action face.
If there is .060 between the front of the bolt lugs and the end of the barrel I would probably not shoot the gun. Are you sure ou do not have the .690 and .635 transposed. If you do I would say it was unsafe with .060 of unsupported case. I am going out in the shop to take a couple pics where you will inderstand what I was asking for.
I'm of the school, if something isn't right, contact the one responsible, FIRST! Instead, if you take it upon yourself to try to correct the problem, especially with something potentially as serious as headspace, without the slightest clue of the steps and equipment required to do it correctly, all the while ranting about the guy, you get no sympathy from me.
Let me add this, so you don't think I'm too heartless, I am sorry to see this stuff happen within our trade. Professional gunsmiths should never let anything out of their shop without making sure it is right. Gunsmiths should stand firmly behind their work, but we'll never know whether this guy had it in him or not. Good luck!
Lock, Stock and Barrel gunworks SLC, Ut USMC 69-73
"This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life."
Eddybo , do you mean from the action face to the front of the bolt lug,.707 to .710 is what I got, and the other from the action side of the recoil lug to the end of barrel is .695 to .705 dependent upon where you measure due to the thread growing as you turn the barrel , I used the back of my micrometer for these measurment's just now . a little more accurate than last night , they seem to be right, bolt to bolt face .152 to .155, barrel recess for bolt nose .155 to .165 measured off the front of the barrel thread's so it changed as the thread grew right or barrel turn and measurment from diff, location's on barrel, top, bottom, sides, of barrel ?? front bolt lug to bolt face .155 to .160, hope these help, from what you say they seem to work out , I just checked the lug again and it's .186 to .187 pretty good
Malm, I am not looking for sympothy and yea I was hard on a guy who I feel took me for a ride, but, really all I did was manipulate a $ 25 part that I was willing to sacrafice to see if it was a quik fix to an issue that has plagued me for the last 2 + year's, as you can see I have done no harm to myself or the rifle, I have gained an education from some of the best in the industry out their , Thank you Gentelman, Mucho Gratitude,---- and if you were in my shoe's I don't think you would have sent your stuff back to him either , although you may have called him and had your moment of therapy !! --
I think your okay. Measure the greatest OD of the barrel tennon and tell me what thickness you want the lug to be, PM me an addy with that info and I will mail you a surface ground lug gratis. I am not doing any work right now because of health reasons, but surface grinding and opening up a recoil lug is not gonna hurt me none.
I'm no Professional Gunsmith, but i do build my own rifle. I get my Tenon length length by measuring with the recoil lug laying on the front of the action and measuring from the front of the recoil lug to the front of the bolt locking lugs and then subtracting .015 from this measurement . I then get my head-space measuring from the front of the recoil lug to the front of the bolt face. I then get my bolt nose recess depth by measuring from the front of the bolt nose to the front of the locking lugs. Works for me.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
Eddybo you are the Mott's , the Digity bomb , thank you my friend, but I am going to send them to a smith back east and have them cared for, You know it's one thing for me to shade tree mechanic something I own, but when it come's to my wife handleing something I put in her hands, it need's to be right, cause when she pull's the Hammer on that first buck or bull , it will all be worth the effort made today, and believe me it's gonna happen ! your a kind soul God bless
I know what you mean it has gotta be right for mamma. I let my wife shoot her first buck with one of my light weight long range rifles. I forgot to dial the scope back down to the 100 yard zero after I shot a bobcat at 960 yards. I caant recall but think I was 18MOA off of zero. Of course she missed a super buck with the gun in said condition.....I will never hear the end of it. To make up for it I let her shoot my buck on that trip and mounted her first deer for her, still I hear it. I built her two rifles in the last two years and I do not touch her 6x284 or 25x284 except to clean and load her rounds.
Eddybo your wife is a wealthy lady, she got a bo that build's, load's and point's out game , she must be one heck of a cook , I know the feeling, after getting your fair share it's nice to introduce and do for other's along the way, my last mrs.'s got the same treatment and went on to take a world class grizzly 22 15/16 skull, drew a buffalo and dall sheep tag in the same year up here and took both, buff was a dandy , shot blacktail deer on Kodiak and blackbear with a smokepole, then moved on to greener pasture's , sometime's you can't do enough , oh well life goes on , but I learned from that experience if your gonna introduce a women that your gonna live with for an extended amount of time you better get her, her own weapon or 2 or 3, this way you mitigate any risk of blame and keep the piece , My new and last bride is just getting started and already had her on a nice black bear hunt on prince of wales last year and put her on a nice 6 1/2 ft'r with a big mellon on him ,but at 120 yrd's she couldn't get confortable with the shot and gave me the go ahead, one through the boiler room and we had our first big game animal together, sometime's in doing for other's the reward is as great or greater,just glad she was there to share the experience, bobcat at 960 that's some fine shooting , I don't think I can see that far, go to hear from you Eddy, what other rifle's have you built and how long you been doing it ??
Lost track because I do a lot of free work for some guys from another forum....actually all I can do is free work. No FFL and no intent to ever charge anyone for gun work. I only do this as a hobby but get pretty involved in my hobbies.
That's awesome, great hobby and your helping people make memories that will last a lifetime, a guy can't do much more than that, Cudos to you, only wish I had surfed this site before I met the other guy, probrably would have been better off
just got back from the range and this is the target, shot with modified lug and new headspace, as we can see it seem's he may have sqaured it up, just got sloppy with reaming and went too deep ? anyhow with these result's I think I will order 2 lug's tommorrow with the appropriate thickness and proceed from their,my wife's gun shot well, mine o.k, the brass looked fine, no primer issue's, will try to post pick's of cases pre and post changes,anyhow at 2 hundred yard's thing's opened up a bit, possibly because of the slop in the lug and probrably my shooting, hoping this will tighten up with the new lug's, will keep you posted , thanks' sorry about the size of the picture I am new to this as well computer challenged, am trying though, wife's 3 shot measure's .245 and the 280 at .408 for three shot's at 100 yrd's, these are the first loads tried out of these gun's, Guy's am I way off line here with these result's and how I am thinking with correcting this??? as far as I see it if the chamber was cut too deep which is a no brainer here, than why wouldn't using new lug with the appropriate thickness compensate for the HS and correct thing's?? what am I missing???, I shouldn't have to mess with anything should I, the bolt face is a constant and there is enough room to thread the barrel in to compensate for the length issue then what am I missing, other than alot of experience here,
I jsut got back from a trip and started to read this. I am amazed sometime at the stuff some guys will attempt just to "get the experience" of the thing. Did you read what Butch Lambert had to say about this. You are missing his point about the bolt nose/barrel clearance. you took .010" off the recoil lug and didn't do anything about the counterbore in the barrel. What do you think you have for clearance there now?
I'll tell you what, I have a few extra original unground or unaltered recoil lugs laying around. If you send me that barreled action and enough money to return it to you, I will fix it for nothing, no labor charge, just shipping.
Jim
+Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild
Everything you now do is something you have chosen to do. Some people don't want to believe that. But if you're over age twenty-one, your life is what you're making of it. To change your life, you need to change your priorities.
Jkob that's very nice and from your credential's, your definitly over qaulified for this clean up , I think their may be more than just an issue with recoil lug, this 280 really need's to be looked at, a good overhaul, the guy I am sending them too is going to put an oversized lug and obviously going to have to recut the shoulder for that and god's know what else, good thing I brought these gun's in with enough barrel shank to do these Mod's, I really do appreciate the offer , I just want to get them cleaned up ! Thank you
Whelennut, 338ak had a chamber which was cut too long. On a Remington you can shorten headspace by making the recoil lug thinner. It's not the proper way to do it but a thinner lug will result in shorter headspace. This is true for all rifles with a recoil lug sandwiched between the barrel shoulder and the action (except for those with a barrel nut).
nsagam I think if I did many of these I would have a bunch of lugs each surface ground to different thickness. That way if the chamber was to shallow or to deep you could easily fix it? Or not?
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
Yea guy's that's why I sent it out to him today,(the good guy that is) I could tell after your tutaleg that this wasn't going to be a case of just the correct size recoil lug, it just needed a good going over, I really appreciate the way you guy's converged on this and tried to help out and give sound experienced advice, will keep you posted on the outcome of what we find , Thank's again
You might find that a copy of the NRA Gunsmithing guide would make some good reading over a long winter. They actually cover the process thoroughly. IMO Good Luck, whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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