Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Working man's Lament, (long)

A few years ago I started thinking that I'd like to own a .22 centerfire designed around the idea of high sectional density bullets and low pressure loadings to yield flat trajectory and long brass and barrel life. bullet weights of 75 and even 80 grains were becoming more available, barrels were being made in twists as tight as 8", information was freely available on the web, in short things looked promising.
<br>A few weeks ago I decided that having studied the situation for a good while (free), and having saved up $500 which was exempt from other concerns, (a good start), I'd start into building a .220 Howell on a M98 mauser action. It seemed reasonable at the time. So, I looked up Ken Howell and found him here just a few days ago. He referred me to Greg R. in NM as being the best builder (and having the reamer, which is key). So I called Greg and we had a short and disapointing conversation the jist of which was that he would be happy to build me a $1,500 rifle on a Remington M700 action, but he really didn't want to barrel an old mauser action for me. I hung up disapointed and deep in thought. $1,500 would buy me a very nice rifle, and maybe $300 would put a used scope on it, but the resulting divorce might have left me too poor to load cartridges.
<br>Being tenacious (others might call me stubborn as a mule), I called Greg back and we talked for an hour about the idea behind what I was wanting to do, what I'd been shooting and what the possibilities might be. It was one of the most informative telephone conversations I'd had in years. Despite the fact that Greg wasn't telling me what I wanted to hear, I enjoyed it a lot. Greg basically explained that he had the only non-lawyerized, (without an extra long throat), reamer for the .220H and he just wasn't comfortable dealing with the out of true, surface hardened old mauser actions. I respect that. Greg steered me towards a .224 Vais, (6.5x55 necked to .22), which he felt would be right up my alley as I'd been shooting the 6.5x55 for years, (I have 3 of 'em, high sectional density ,low pressure, lifetime supply of various brass ect). He suggested I find George Vais and send him one of my M96 actions and a new Hart 9 twist barrel to get going. So, after some looking I found George and gave him a call. Another disappointing conversation. George had sold the rights to the Vais line of wildcats to some guy in Texas who was working to prevent George from doing any work on those chamberings, trying to corner the market on the reamers and sueing George at the same time. George also was unwilling to suggest that I use an old mauser action as the .224 Vais was never pressure tested by him beyond the "reach the point where brass flows into the extractor relief and, then back off" technique. As brass flows at pressures well above the 51,000 psi saami limit for the M96 action, I found this a bit off putting.
<br>So now I'm wondering whether I should go back to saving up the $$ and hope I reach my goal while I still have my health and vision, or should I try my hand at wildcat gunsmithing? I have access to several machine shops including some pretty exotic tooling, and I know a few accomplished machinists (one is actually a rocket scientist, really...). Unfortunately none of us is actually a gunsmith. While I've restocked and bedded a few actions, and done some basic pistol smithing (throating, lapping, pollishing ect), I was hoping to have somone who really knew their work true up and barrel the action for me.
<br>In the meantime I may have to pull the barrel off one of the swedes and set it back a thread or two in the hopes of getting it to shoot the light bullets. I'll just have to hope the yotes will wait for a still moment.
<br>Sorry for the long post. I'll go now and see if I can get a little cheese to go with this...BD
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I feel your pain, BD.
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<br>If it were me, I'd sell something and get the .220 Howell. It's what you really want, right? Then get it.
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<br>Also, if every gunsmith you run into tells you not to build on that Mauser, and if their explanation sounds reasonable and prudent (sounds like it does), then a 700 is easy enough to find.
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<br>Hold out a bit longer. Sell something you don't like as much as that new rifle ... maybe an old rifle. And begin the project when the time is right. You'll regert it if you don't.
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<br>Rick
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Ask Ed Plummer whether one of his 'smiths can barrel that Mauser for the .220 Howell for you.
<br>http:www.hunting-rifles.com

BD - A couple things.
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<br>There's M98 actions, and then there are M98 actions. There are actions built in Germany, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Turkey, Argentina etc... You didn't mention which action you had. That could be part of the problem.
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<br>If you want to shoot 80's, you might want a bit faster twist than the 1 in 9. It's definitely a no-no in an AR shooting .223. You might be fine with a bigger cartridge and longer barrel, but with the 1 in 8, it's a sure thing.
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<br>Have you heard about the JLK 90's and the 1 in 6.5 twist barrels from PacNor and Krieger ?
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<br>Don't give up. I'm sure a solution will present itself
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<br>Regards,
<br>THCAAATT (the poster formerly known as Scott)

Those old Mausers are not a good action for your purpose. They are soft and may set back after hard loading. Also they have a slow locktime, poor triggers etc.
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<br>In steel carbon keeps coming out of the grain boundries as it ages. It keeps getting weaker.
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<br>I have sporterized those old mausers. I don't own one now and am glad I don't.
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<br>I have a very large .224 with a 1-9 twist. While it will shoot some custom made 88.5 gr bullets very well they are not VLD's if you follow me. I would pick a 1-8 twist for just heavy bullets. I am happy with my 1-9 as it's really a varmint rifle that I use it for.
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<br>Sell the mauser. They are old.
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<br>In the mean time a stock .243 Winchester will do almost anyting the .220 H class will do except be exotic.

If you study the design and ballistics of the 220 Howell, you'll see where it really shines is at the longer ranges 1,000 yards and beyond with the heavier bullets in VLD design. Ken sent me the file on it while we were still ensconced on the shooters board and I was pretty impressed and still considering building one. The performance characteristics are outstanding with very slow burning powders in a full case.
<br>Since the pressures on this cartridge are low, if you follow Ken's design criteria, the 98 actions should work just fine for this cartridge. If you find a good 1909 argentine or FN commercial, so much the better. A legion of ACGG gunmakers can't all be wrong.
<br>If you find any good gunsmith, I'm quite sure you can have that rifle built to your specs for a price you can live with. Try calling PacNor barrels. They will probably have the reamer, or have access to it and basically all you'll be out is the cost of a rebarrelling. If your action is too soft, they will test it first and let you know. Stick uses them extensively, as do many others here and I've never heard a single complaint about their work or the results.
<br>You CAN have your cake and eat it too, I believe. Shop around, or better yet, use the sources that some of these other guys have used after shopping around and save yourself the trouble. Good luck with your project- Sheister

Sorry,but I'm just not a Mauser Man.
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<br>It seems goofy to me,to go to the expense of building what is HOPEFULLY a very effective long range bomber,on a marginal action. Before everyones screams foul,understand that I've done the "Mauser Thing". They are less expensive and if they were better,I'd have closets full of them. I was never impressed with them,despite having several full tilt "60's flavored" Varminters based upon them(solely for romance/nostalgia).
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<br>If finances are a concern,the most bang for your buck,remains a 700. You needn't worry about keeping your lips affixed to your face,as they were conceived from inception,to handle pressures of today. The trigger,locktime,component availability,track record,scope bases,etc,etc. Makes it an easy choice.
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<br>It is very easy to make a 700 shoot incredibly well,for little money. If you build a Custom Varminter that isn't extremly accurate,you have a $1000 jackhandle and that hurts.....................

BD,
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<br>It seems to me, that you stumbled across a 'smith who doesn't care to work on Mausers. That's okay, it's a free country. Now, go find a 'smith who does work on, and more importantly, ENJOY'S, working on Mausers.
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<br>No use taking a Ford to the Chevy dealer when something breaks. I get the impression that just like shooters, 'smiths have thier own preferences on rifles, and will try and direct their customers that way.
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<br>Since Ken mentioned Ed Plummer, I'd call him first. If not Ed, try our very own John Ricks, here at this board.
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<br>Mausers are still good actions. I honestly don't believe they''ve "leaked" out all their strength.
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<br>It's probably very true that your could do it better, and cheaper with a M700. But if that's not the action you want, then you'll probably never be happy with that rifle.

BD,I know 3 guys who set out to shoot a 90 gr.vld at 4000 fps.Money was no object,but they all wound up shooting 80 gr. bullets at around 3800. They necked down the 6mm rem to start with.I'm not sure how many others. I know one of em is on his third barrel[ trying different twists] and I dont know about the others.
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<br>The same smiths built all their rifles.All were built on new ruger no.ones.Barrel lengths were 28 and 30.
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<br>Based on that,I'd have to say it aint no game for a working man[ like me] I do wish you well in whatever you decide to do.

Thanks for all the encouraging responses. I've stepped back and I'm looking at this project from a couple of different angles. Just to sort out where I'm coming from, I don't have any cast in stone objectives like, "a 90 grain VLDS at 4,000 fps". My intention is to build a flat shooting .22 varmint rifle with excellant wind bucking abilities which operates at 55,000 psi or less. If this same rifle could serve the role of a long range just for fun target rifle, so much the better. I'd like long brass life, a barrel which will last my life time and the ability to use the same slow powders as my other primary rifles. I would prefer to do the stock work myself, and money is definately a consideration.
<br> A m700 action would really just add about $300 to the original project budget. Another option would be to buy a barreled CZ550 from Ed Plummer for about $800, and sell the mauser to recoup some of the cost, (if my wife hears about this plan she's gonna say "or sell a couple of mausers").
<br> Another area of decision is twist rate. I'd love to be able to shoot the heavier VLD bullets. However I don't want to give up the ability to use the heaviest of the varmint construction bullets either. As I own a fur tannery, any recovered fur can help defray the cost of shooting, (and helps give me some admittedly marginal justification for the whole project). The heavier varmint bullets seem to be in the 55 to 65 grain range and I don't know how well they'll handle the 7 or even 8 twist. Probably an 8 or 9 twist would give the balance I'm after. A typical scenario would be looking out over a snow covered frozen lake at a bait 300-400 yards away with plenty of wind. As I generally wear gloves an ultra light target trigger is not so desirable as is a very "crisp" let off.
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What kind of Mauser is it, and how much ya want?
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BW, The CZ24 went to a gunshow Sat. and may be gone. In addition I have 3 M96's, one of which may go to support this project, although I'd rather not.

As far as the no throat (de-lawyerized) reamer goes, Pacific Precision will custom grind any reamer to your specs for a nominal fee. As there seems to be a problem with the other 220 Howell reamers having too long a throat I would avoid using them for my chamber. Given a little persuasion someone ought to be interested in having one of them reground to allow separate throating for each customer's specific bullet intentions as Ken noted in another post. Would surley offer enough options for customers to make it a good investment.
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<br> Heck, I may have talked myself into buying a reamer and having it done! Anyone else interested?
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<br>Andre'