Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger Hunting Bullets in VLD

MikeWerner,

Okay, I apologize over my slightly over-the-top post. But I do tend to get offended when somebody makes a crack like, "Just my opinion, but I thought the coyote shot with the Barnes bullet brought very little to the discussion."

I also get really weary of the many discussions on the Campfire that seem to produce VERY firm opinions from people who have zero or little experience with the subject. Probably the three subjects that do this, every time, are Berger VLD's, using .22 centerfires on deer, and elk rifles, cartridges and bullets.

One of the reason I tend to get a little peeved about Berger threads is that the debate has gone on a lot before, and the way they work has been described many times. I published an article in HANDLOADER a few years ago about a trip to New Zealand to specifically test VLD's, because NZ has so many feral animals that allow plenty of shooting. We not only shot dozens of animals, but autopsied quite a few, until the delayed expansion got so boring that we quit. Oh, I also tested their penetration on bones by shooting into the shoulders of big feral goats at very close range, after the goats were dead. The VLD's penetrated every time. You can probably find a link to that article if you do a search on the Campfire.

VLD's have also been tested over and over again in The Bullet Test Tube, a wax-based medium developed by my friend Richard Mann. Their performance in Test Tubes pretty much exactly matched their performance in the animals we autopsied in New Zealand.

Since then I have used VLD's on big game here in Montana and other western states, because I do like their performance for certain kinds of hunting. They have always acted exactly the same. In fact the two bullets I've used that are most consistent in the way they expand are Barnes TSX's and Berger VLD's, which operate at opposite ends of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that one is "right" and one is "wrong," just that they work differently.

Yeah, you're right. Some of my recent posts have been offensive, probably because they were meant to be. I don't react that way often, partly because you have to be pretty thick-skinned to be a writer whose opinion appears on newstands several times a month. But eventually I can get riled, especially on a thread like this.

rost,

I suspect that if you try the hunting VLD's you will experience more instant kills from lung shots. My experience is also that even if the animal doesn't go down instantly to a lung shot, it will go down quicker, on average, than with any other bullet I've used.

Even the guides in New Zealand became VLD converts, and very quickly, especially for goats. Feral goats are considered among hardest-to-drop big game animals by most people who shoot them. The outfitter took one look at a VLD round and told us we had absolutely the wrong bullet, that what we needed was a heavy round-nose with lots of lead showing. But by the end of the second day all the Kiwis were saying the VLD was the best goat bullet they'd ever seen.

In fact, the first goat shot with a pure, broadside lung shot was a big black billy that my wife Eileen took at around 150 yards. It collapsed instantly and rolled down the slope, which is apparently almost unheard of when shooting goats. And that was with a 115-grain from a .257 Roberts at around 2950 fps. Very quick kills was typical, whether on 150-200 pound goats or 400-pound red stags. In fact the biggest stag was also killed with a 115 from a .257, at 200 yards. The shot was placed a little too far to the rear of the rib cage, getting the liver and the rear of the lungs. The stag barely managed to hobble 15 feet before falling over.

The reason for the quick kills is massive internal damage. VLD's tear up innards more than any other bullets I've ever seen. They don't just punch big holes through organs, they rip them apart. My stag was shot with a 185-grain from a .30-06 at 250 yards. The bullet literally turned the heart into a flap of flesh about a foot long. The stag was bedded down and never rose to his feet, instead just tipping his head back briefly, then rolling down the mountain.

Great points, jolintaxidermy.

Does anyone here have the UNS number for the jackets on these VLD hunting bullets?

What about the antimony numbers for the core on the Bergers?

With such a narrow recommended velocity band for acceptable terminal performance, some may suspect components could be on the soft side.

I might get lynched out there, but here are my thoughts...

Although I have never used them, what scares me is their overall theory of a bullet fragmenting out once inside the animal. I think the concept is good, IF the bullet makes it inside the animal.

My friend took shot a doe at 400 yards, and hit the shoulder, about an inch to the right of the chest. The doe dropped yes, but the bullet did not penetrate the cavity and blew up (fragmented) on the shoulder. I feel he was lucky to recover the deer since the bullet did not penetrate vitals. He was fortunate that it dropped right there. Otherwise, there would be a doe running around with a 3 inch wound on her shoulder....

I have read other similar stories online as well.
...

Actually, the 1800 to 3000 fps range is a fairly large range compared to a lot of other bullets. The vast majority of bullets aren't expected to expand below 1900 to 2000 fps, including most cup-and-core bullets, and I wouldn't expect a cup-and-core to do well above 3000 fps. I also don't know that you could get Barnes to recommend an impact velocity as low as 1800 fps for the vast majority of their bullets. If you want to have an impact velocity envelope from 1800 fps to more than 3000 fps, you don't have many bullets to consider - Nosler Partitions, Accubonds, and perhaps E-tips and a few of the Barnes TSXs. When I talked with someone at Hornady he said the SSTs should be good down to around 1600 fps, but I don't think I would try an SST at above about 2900 fps impact velocity.

Don�t know why you wouldn�t use a standard cup and core above 3,000fps? What is the worst that could happen � they�d fly apart like a Berger is advertised to do?

Reasonable and valid points, Coyote Hunter.

The VLD Hunter really brings nothing new to the table but exceptional cable-show marketing.

..........Yep! Call the Bergers VLDs what you may boys, but I`ll stand by my end results rather than opinions by those who for the most part (and just like John Barnsess stated), have not used them themselves, and who don`t plan on using them. Great little cartoon btw in trying to associate the VLDs as uncapable. Ain`t workin boys!

The Bergers simply use a different concept of killing. A different concept that you cannot or will not accept.

The VLD �concept� really isn�t any different, just marketed differently. Standard cup-and-core hunting bullets have a thicker jacket and also penetrate a bit before expanding, but run them fast enough at impact and you get pretty much the same effect as Berger advertises for the VLDs �they shed most of their weight as shrapnel. With hits to the chest cavity, the result is often and perhaps usually an animal that goes straight down. No problem there.

That said, my concern is not with what happens when things go as planned � most any bullet will work in such circumstances � but what happens when things go badly. Berger advertises about 18� of penetration with the VLDs. There are times when that simply is not enough. In 2007 I had the misfortune of having a buck step forward and turn just as the trigger broke. What had been an easy quartering away shot suddenly became a hit low to the right ham. The vitals were much more than 18� from the entrance wound. The 140g North Fork I was using didn�t care - the buck dropped so fast it was on the ground before I could recover from the recoil. The North Fork was recovered from up against the sternum.

In my experience, such straight down results are pretty typical with the North Forks, with both deer and elk. The problem I have with Berger VLDs is they can�t perform any better than what I am currently using unless the game starts dropping before the shot, but VLDs can easily fail to measure up when things go bad, as occasionally happens. How would a Berger, with its advertised 18� of penetration have worked on the buck? No one can know for sure but the advertised 18� penetration doesn�t give me any warm fuzzies when it was over twice that to the sternum. When I shot that buck I had a bull tag in my pocket � what if the circumstances had been the same except that the animal was a bull? I�ve seen bulls badly wounded in the hind quarter (and the front, for that matter) easily outdistance the hunters that shot them. Thanks, but no thanks.

..................I understand the penetration aspect of things in what you are talking about. As I stated earlier on this thread, the VLDs, with a well placed shot, are very capable of killing game including elk that are quartering to or quartering away in the neighborhood of 30-35 degrees max with considerable vitals damage.

I would rather take my chances using the VLDs, wait for a good shot angle, having a higher percentage or better odds that my quarry will drop sooner, or better yet, drop as a DRT, as opposed to the chances of doing alot of tracking after the shot using a more conventional bullet. Especially when time is short and getting close to dark or is dark, I dislike tracking game in any terrain.

I`ve seen, heard, and read that on a few occasions, about hunters going back the next morning to again track and find their game because they couldn`t find the animal the day before. That btw, has happened to me on two occasions.

You have your reasons why you say "no thanks" to the VLDs, and I too have my reasons for my "no thanks" when it comes to using most conventional bullets, of which btw, I have used just about all of them for hunting over many years.

Of the 48 hogs and the one bull elk I have killed using the 30 cal VLDs, I haven`t had to track any of them.

So while the VLDs lack penetration given certain shot angles, I`ll opt to patiently "wait" for a better shot angle, resulting in little to no tracking after the shot.

Regardless of the bullet brand, no animal is predictable after bullet impact. But I`d be willing to lay some serious dollars down on the table, that if given the same game (elk on down), shot from the same distances with the same caliber and roughly the same bullet weight, shot at a 30 degree angle or less, and given the exact same shot placement into the animal, my money will be on the VLDs to effectively drop the animals faster along with having reduced running yardages after the impact the majority of the time.

If such an experiment could be carried out using all bullet brands for comparison, I`ll bet on and take the VLDs.