Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats 20 Vartarg or 20 Fireball????

Question - is there enough advantage to go through the extra forming step to do a Vartarg or just simply do a 20 Fireball. I know that there is a lot of data out there for the Vartarg I am just not sure of the true advantages. Any advice would be appreciated.

Goto 6mmBR, http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html or Saubier, http://www.saubier.com/forum.html then decide just how much hair splitting or nitpicking you want to do. For all intents and purposes it's the same cartridge with a different names.

I contemplated building a 20 Vartarg for sometime, but could not get past the proprietary dies etc. I ended up building a .221 FB and have never looked back. Lower cost, less hassle, no .20 cal. cleaning stuff to buy, more load data, plenty of .22 cal bullets.

PS, if your using a 700 action, make sure you start with a Fireball donor, and not a .223 donor.

NFG and Grand thanks, I guess I should have gone into a little more detail. The donor gun is a Rem 722 (222) the tube is most likely going to be a Lilja SS 1-12 24" heavy varmint. Stock - Undecided, and trigger will be replaced.
NFG - it is the splitting of the hair that keeps us playing with these things. And Grand - I have the 22's covered too well - looking for a baby sister to the 20 Practical - 17's covered also. But again thank you for your response.

What is the difference between a Fireball donor and a 223 donor?

I have a take off 204 given to me, by another forum member. ( thanks again TOM!)

I am looking at doing it in a 20 Vartag.. it is a shot out 204 barrel from Pac Nor...

Playing with another 204 barrel, I am just overly impressed as everyone else is with it..

but I do think the 20 Vartag Turbo in logical...even tho the 20 Fireball is very efficient, my logic is I can load the Turbo to Fireball specs or up to Turbo specs....

Guess the cheapest way on dies, is get a collet bushing die in 222 and then just use thicker bushings to neck it to 20 cal...
and a 222 die will still seat the bullets just fine..and a 222 body die will knock the shoulder back..

I sort of wish Hornady would also make a 20 HMR rimfire.... I think it would be a better round than a 17 HMR due to having a heavier bullet.... with performance between the 17 HMR ( 2550 fps MV ) and the 22 Mag with the 30 grain plastic tip bullets ( 2200 fps MV)

Speed sells to the masses, but accuracy sells to the purists..
R

The feed rails on the Fireball actions are different and the extractor is in a different location.

Have you considered "splitting the difference" and choosing the .20 Tactical? Several major manufacturers make the dies. The .223 bolt face is perfect, since it is a glorified necked-down .223, and also the feed rails would not need to be changed.

i believe that it is called the 5mm rimfire... though it is not made by Hornady at this time yet...

That 20 Practical is great for us cheapos, not extra dies to buy OR brass...I built one last year...shoots great, plenty of velo, I use Redding bushing dies, the same ones as I use for my 17 Rem and 223 when I'm not using my Lee collet dies...just a smaller bushing....I think I read where someone was using a Lee 223 Collet die for crimping his 20 Practical...gotta check that out, doesn't quite compute.

You could do the same with the 20 FB with Redding bushing dies...just change the bushing and also the primer rod to 204 or 17 Rem.

Absolutely right Elkman, but splitting a hair and then splitting it again gets way to fine for my old eyes. Hahahahaha. I guess it depends on if it is an Elephant hair or a flea hair.

Luck

the vartarg is a 20 fireball. Very little difference. You will be impressed at what the vartarg is capable of.



ML

NFG - Man if I get into double splitting I think my wife will send me and the guns out the door. I think that I am leaning to just the 20FB, That is what my 7 year old keeps telling me. This is actually his first build. His older brother and sister have been in on a couple each so I am letting him make the call. I have found that they keep it simple and don't spend as much time crunching data, they just pick the one that sounds cool.

I would think 20 Fireball would be easier to form and play with. Also, the brass would at least be headstamped "Fireball," which might be a good thing for a kid.

Pass the 8" twist 223AI and hold the fluff................

Elkman: For the reasons mentioned above a .221FB/20 Vartarg built on a M-700 .223 donor will not reliably eject the brass. Use the correct donor and avoid ejection issues.

The extractor isn't in a 'different' location on my 17 Fireball. Course I've only run 17 Fireball through it, and it did pickup 222 and 223 fine. Also ran the 17 Fireball bolt through my 222 and 223 and it ejects them fine.

The extractor is in a different location, which causes the brass to be ejected at a different angle. .223 action will eject loaded FB ammo fine, but fired cases release from the extractor prematurely due to ejection angle.

.221 FB Left, .223 Right.

FB extractor at 8 O'Clock, .223 Extractor at 6 O'Clock

Same/same on 17 Fireball/223, go figure.

I joined this forum just to reply to this post.

Now, with the .17 WSM, .17 Fireball, and the .17 Hornet out, there are a couple more "in between" cartridges.

What I would like to see is something like a .20 WSM and maybe a .20 Hornet (closer to the .17 Hornet design than the .22 Hornet).

Also, I think I would take the simplicity of the .20 Practical over the .20 "Tactical" and .20 "Vartarg".

Lastly, the .19 Calhoon, .19 Badger, and .19-223 Calhoon should not be overlooked.

I think a tiny bit bigger than the .17's and a tiny bit smaller than the .22's is the way to go. Would love to see some pictures of those in here.



17hmr vs 17wsm vs 17 hornet



17 hornet vs 17 rem fireball vs 17 remington



The lineup of 17s are (Left to Right): .17 Mach II, .17 HMR, .17 WSM, .17 Hornet, .17 Fireball, .17 Remington.





Pictured left to right, 17 HMR, 17 Hornet, 22 Hornet, 223 Remington, and 220 Swift.



17hm2,17hmr,17 hornet, 17 fireball, 17 rem

I think there are some guys who have 20 Ackley Hornets over on Saubier. Vartarg is about perfect if you ask me, I love both of mine. If you want to talk small caliber, that is the place.

http://www.saubier.com/forum.html

Would LOVE to see a photo of the .20 Vartarg. If you can get it with any (all!) of the above cartridges in for comparison, all the better.


something like this:

.17 HM2, .17 HMR, .17 WSM, .17 Hornet, .17 Fireball, 22 Hornet, .17 Remington, .20 "Vartarg" (.20 Fireball), .20 Practical, .223 Remington

Anyone?

Is the "20 Vartarg" the same as a .221 Fireball necked down to .20?

Anyone have a picture of one of these next to a .17 Fireball? Also, a picture next to a .20 Practical?

Which is easier to load/reload for, the .20 "Vartarg", or the .20 Practical?

Thanks.

I’ve had 2 fireballs that were 700s. An LVSF and an LS.

BOTH had ejection issues. If you’re gonna go through the hassle of finding a 221 700 for fixing the ejection issue, I wouldn’t waste my time. As I highly doubt it would make a difference. As long as you were ejecting loaded rounds it was fine, the second it was a fired round, it only flips them over backwards into the port. Both rifles performed exactly the same.

If it were me and looking for a build with one of these cartridges I’d do a 527 and save yourself the headache. Unless a single shot is acceptable. Because that’s essentially what a 700 221 is.

Yes the Vartarg is a 221 Fireball which is just necked down to 20 caliber. Most of the time it is as simple as running 221 brass through a 20 Vartarg FL size die.

I don't have a picture of a 20 Vartarg and 20 Practical next to each other. Set a 221 Fireball next to a 223 cartridge and there you have it. They are both simply necked down to 20 caliber to create those cases.

They are both great. I have never seen or heard of a 20 Vartarg that wasn't easy to load for, that cartridge just shoots. I highly recommend it, they are a blast and will do the job on our eastern coyote just fine. Check out Saubier.com and you will have days of reading on these small calibers.

The 20 Vartarg is a little more than just the 221 fireball necked down. The Vartarg has a 30 degree shoulder and the fireball has a 23 deg shoulder.
You need separate dies after forming brass.
Alot of guys run .236 neck and a little bigger st the .200 line with Lapua brass because its thicker than Remington 221 fireball brass.

as close as I can come at the moment!




l to r

17 ackley hornet, 17 hebee, 17 mach iv, 17 fireball, 17 remington, 20 vartarg, 20 tactical, 22 hornet, 218 bee, 221 fireball 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 223 Rem AI, 22-250, 220 swift.



and some Hornets.......





17 Hornady Hornet, 17 Ackley Hornet, 19 Calhoon, 22 Hornet.


ya!

GWB

Hey hammer hawker, that wasn't a option.... Hint


Laughing................................................................................................

Btw, big SLOUCH, do all the periods get the point across even more???............................

Ooooops, LAUGHING!!!!!.........................,,...............

For Schtuck..... nope..

he's just schitt faced and mad he's out of booze and its a Sunday night,...So the Catholic Booze Store is closed for the Sabbath..

If someone can get that exact same picture as the last one 2 posts up, but with the .17 WSM , .20 Vartarg, and .20 Practical; that would be PERFECT for me.

Oh, and the .22 Mag, .22 LR, and .223 on the ends for reference.

Please and thank you!

Thanks, geedubya, just saw that photo.

If I'm not mistaken, the 218 bee is actually .22 caliber, right? Has anybody necked that down to .20, .19, or .17; and if so, do they have a name?


SECONDLY, does anybody else think it would make sense, or wish a rifle maker or ammo company, or both would collaborate and come out and "legitimize" a .20 Vartarg?

Imagine, the "20 Sako", or "Mossberg 20", or "20 Coyote Savage", "Tikka Twenty", or something like that?

I owned a Martini Cadet in a blown out, necked down to .20 caliber cartridge based on the .218 Bee called the .20-20 Kiel Center Fire. RCBS did the dies for me from a chamber cast. Sorry I ever sold that little rifle.

The Vartarg is the Fireball necked down to .204, but you do need to trim the neck thickness down a bit. I am doing load development now for my Vartarg and finding it likes RL7 best.

20 Vartarg = 20 Fireball......

depending on what your reamer says.....

221 case necked down to 20 cal......depending on brass/neck/chamber...

may not have to turn necks......my 20 Vartarg shown here...I assembled in 2007.....

I use a variety of brass.....of course the best is Lapua 221......which was not available in 2007

Dies are easy now....take your pick....but I still use my 221 Fireball seater..Forster BR.....

My barrel is 12 twist Pac Nor......original chamber was 204R....ran it a year then Pac Nor rechamberd to Vartarg

Velocity ? 40 gr V moly V max..3560 ffs......32's are very fast......3700 IIRC......

This dog gun is on a Savage s/shot action.....many many dogs have died with this cartridge

19/H322 is my go to load w/40 V.......safe in my rifle....soooo pleasant to shoot...rifle is 15# (ish)

Only thing better than a Vartarg ? 20-222......again my dog guns are s/shot



Vartarg carnage at 500 yds.......

I built a 20 vt for my hunting pardner Also a 221... His 20 is absolutely his fav go to rifle...and I have built him guite a few...to answer your question it's not really worth the hastle but most of us like the hustle it beats the TV

I have been using a 20 tac for some time...wonderful combo...
I'm thinking tho the 20 tnt.(222 rem) might be the one

PS, if your using a 700 action, make sure you start with a Fireball donor, and not a .223 donor.[/quote]

What is the difference between a Fireball donor and a 223 donor? [/quote]

The feed rails on the Fireball actions are different and the extractor is in a different location. [/quote]

So, a 223 factory gun rebarreled to a fireball case will not feed or eject properly. I made the mistake. Get a factory fireball R 700 , or a Sako A1/461. I have both now and they both work great.

Get a sako extractor installed on a 223 bolt and it will fix the issue.

Or pick up a L461 action or rifle and your feed issues will disappear. I am in the process of building a 221 Fireball and 222 on one now.
Controlled feed on this action and tough to beat Sako quality, right now they are the same or cheaper than a Rem 700.

What do these 2 20's do that the 204 Ruger can't do?

Nothing really. One could light load the 204 and duplicate the 20 VT.
I have several of both, and use them on PDs and coyotes.
To get philosophical, one could get a 30-06 and 22-250, load them up and down and pretty much cover all hunting in North America. But that would not be much fun.

And the fun part is what I failed to consider. Thanks Dale.

I have really considered doing the 20 Vartag Turbo, or aka 20/222....

Easy to neck down 223 case to a 222 and then neck down that to 20 caliber.

I think that would be an easy thing to load for at the load bench... and don't go velocity crazy, that should make brass last a long time.

a lot of vendors on line, were or are, out of bullets all the time.... but 17 and 20 caliber can be found pretty easily still...

This past week, I have been playing with a Howa Mini Action in 223, playing with loads like 10 gr of Unique, or 11.5 grains of Blue Dot or Steel
propelling a 40 gr V Max down range from 100 out to 200 yds....still getting good tight groups...

easily minute of sage rat out to 200 yds, with a plain vanilla 3 x 9 Bushnell scope....prairie dogs would be no problem.

even a sporter barrel isn't being heated up with 10 shots.. single fed...

but the recoil is atrocious

is that as good as you can do G Dub? you're slowing down in your old age my friend...

you definitely have a fun toy box....

This has turned into one of my most favorite threads on the campfire. Lots of good information that makes me want to go shoot.