Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .45 vs 10 mm

I have pushed a lot of cartridges to the real limit.

A) The weakest cartridge:
10mm

B) Very weak cartridges:
30 carbine
25acp
7.62x39mm

C) Average cartridges:
40sw, 9mm, 45acp

D) Above average cartridges
22-250, 243, 6mm Rem, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 260 Rem, 6.5x55 [US brass], 270, 7mm-08, 7x57mm, 280, 300Sav, 308, 7.62x51mm, 30-06, 8x57mm, 338F, 358, and 35W

E) Strong cartridges
6.5mm RemMag, 7mm RemMag, 8mmRemMag, 264 WinMag, 300 H&H Mag, 300 WinMag, 338 WinMag, 350 RemMag, 375 H&H Mag, 458 WinMag

F) Super strong cartridges:
223Rem, 222Rem, .222 Rem Mag, 204 Ruger, and 17Rem

G) Cartridge so strong, the primer will pierce before the primer pocket grows:
32 S&W, 38 S&W, 22BR, 6mmBR, 6x47mm, 6.5x47mm, 7mmBR, 30BR, Lapua small primer 308

There is a guy out there on the internet that can calculate all this with Von Misses equations. I have to measure it.
It is not rocket science to get the answers. Cross section a 45acp case head and a 10mm case head.
The brass between the extractor groove and the large Boxer primer pocket in a 10mm case head is paper thin. Duh!

Still curious as to what you were running the .45ACP to 50k PSI in...

a) 19 ounce Republic arms Patriot 45 acp pistol and worked up to 460 Rowland loads and kept going higher in May of 2000. The manual said no +P, but the factory gave me all the parts I needed. Now manufactured by Cobra.
That pistol was designed by Nehemia Sirkis.
The recoil is something else.
I ordered that pistol specifically for that work up.


b) I put a Shilen .452" 26" long bull barrel on a 1903 Turk Mauser and shoot groups at 100 yards.

As a writer I always felt that the .38, the .44, and the .45 were the Holy Trinity of handgun rounds.

Now admittedly the .38 S&W is more of an altar boy (especially when compared to the .38 Special) than say a saintly 9mm or that high priest of .38s, the .357 Magnum. Much the same can be said when sermonizing about the .44 and .44 Magnum, the firing of which from a snubbie can be a truly religious experience. But in my holy book the .45 reigns supreme in Handgun Heaven, be it the thundering of that avenging angel, .45 Long Colt, or the most deserving of our worship, the .45 ACP.

I take it as a statement of faith the nothing will banish the evil ones to the darkest corner of the grave yard faster or better than the gawd-almighty 1911 in .45 ACP.

Truly, it is wondrous to see the miracles it has wrought.

Those who do not practice the "old time religion" may hand load to their hearts content and indeed they may approach a state of rapture... until they have to go into a store and buy a box of ammo over the counter and then WOE! but they will be found lacking when the moment of judgment in a dimly lit parking lot is upon them.

Here endeth the sermon. Go forth, be armed, and sin not with a micro .40 auto.

In the case of the .45 ACP and most other handgun cartridges pressure is incidental and important only as a factor in bolt thrust. Parts will start breaking down due to bolt thrust long before a barrel suffers pressure damage.

The top handguns during the development of the .45 ACP ran at around 3,500 lbs. of thrust. My guess is that Browning used that as his design limit. Since the .451" diameter was already mandated the pressure was limited by default.

Spot on analysis.

need to hold one of the variables constant or your comparing apples and oranges. Jog where were you when major 9 loads were being developed?

Really?

You'd be curious about some of the 45 Colt loads I used to run too. Especially some in the "weak" SAA. Sadly, they'll have to remain unposted in order to protect the not-so-innocent.

You're a bad influence. Especially on me.

Loaded to the levels you're speaking of knocks it out of the category of an ideal fighting handgun, even if it might make a fine deer round, due to sharp recoil and slow recovery time, even in a full weight service gun.

Recovery time is faster than for a 45. The slide returns to battery with such speed that it hauls the muzzle down. I get that interesting effect in both my Delta Elite and my G20. I never would have believed it until I experienced it. I can rip off an 8 rounder faster and a mite better with the Delta than I can with my 45 Combat Commander.

The 10 is a great round. In factory loadings, easily obtained, it usually trumps the 45 ACP. In those loadings, I think it makes a slightly better woods gun. Col. Cooper originally put it up as the heir-apparent to the 45. It never materialized and Cooper fairly quickly went back to his beloved. The FBI killed it as a combat cartridge when they dropped it and the 40 S&W maxed out in its development.

As it stands, the biggest argument against the 10 is its limited availability. Like a lot of other cartridges, you can get it if you've got a Cabela's around or other well-stocked gunstore. Walmart doesn't carry it.

As far as competing with 44 Mags and 41 Mags for truly dangerous game or dangerous animal protection...it doesn't. The only way it does is if you are using mid-range loads in the former and full-power in the latter. It also generally gives you more firepower. While I like firepower, I personally don't want a weaker round in this situation, just to get more rounds. I'd a lot rather have a 10 in dangerous game lands than I would a 32 ACP.

I don't have a 10 anymore. I've thought about getting another mainly due to the fascination shown here. I don't really need one though. Good round, if you like it, and want it, you have my blessings.

There was a lot of ink wasted in the gun rags back in the day, about how savage the recoil of the Delta was. When I first shot mine, I couldn't tell much difference between it and my cousin's Officer's ACP, which we were shooting side-by-side. I never could tell much difference between an Officer's and a full-size 1911 either. I've never done any recoil recovery tests, but it makes sense to me. Of course, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the 9 and the 45 either, real-world, I mean.

Minnesota?

I'm not sure about the meaning of your question, but the major 9's were developed to increase magazine capacity and to generate enough gas volume to make compensators effective. In addition to recoil control, compensators also reduce slide force via a number of different mechanisms depending on the design.

However, none of that reduces or increases bolt thrust, but they do affect how a pistol design manages it.

Gentlemen I can tell all of you, that my Glock model 20 in 10mm caliber is NOT excessive on recoil compared to any .41magnum pistol. Now in a Dan Wesson or Smith & Wesson the recoil is more yes, however the Glock in 10mm is less than a .45acp model 1911. Recovery time is faster for those of you who have never fired a Glock 10mm!!!

No Pounds PER square inch


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pounds_per_square_inch

"The pound per square inch or, more accurately, pound-force per square inch (symbol: psi or lbf/in2 or lbf/in2 or lbf/sq in or lbf/sq in) is a unit of pressure or of stress based on avoirdupois units. It is the pressure resulting from a force of one pound-force applied to an area of one square inch:"

The Glock I had didn't recoil badly at all.

You're both right. Lbs. (the force) divided by square inches = pounds per square inch.

Hey, no kidding? Thanks for that. Just what is the difference between "divided by" and "per" though? I guess being an engineer for the last thirty plus years I never figured that out. Maybe I should have attended the University of Wikipedia.

If you actually read my post you might have noticed I was trying to explain the proportionality of force, area and pressure to someone who thinks it works backwards, and by saying "divided by" instead of "per" it might make it easier to visualize. I guess it only made it easier to gig me using google. Yep, you got me good there.