Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Are bad guys evil or mentally ill?

There was a shooting in Minneapolis that made the news recently. The story is that a drunk was escorted out of a bar and came back and shot the bouncer four times in the back.
This guy had a concealed carry permit which made it "newsworthy". Thankfully the governor signed our new bill into law anyhow.
GWN

It's not an "or" question....

Depends upon you view of the world.

I see "evil" truly existing and something that good Christians try to fight against.

Example: Ted Bundy--He killed with full knowledge of right and wrong.

I see mental illness as simply that, illness.

Example--The Son of Sam Killer. All persons involved in the case agree that he is G-O-N-E. He hears voices in his head, is completely detached from reality, etc .

There are those in this society (usually on the left side of the spectrum) who simply deny that evil exists. They believe that a person like Ted Bundy is a product of his upbringing-- that its not his fault.

For me, Some Bad Actors are truly Evil;

Some Bad Actors are truly mentally ill;

and Most left wingers are blinded by their good intentions or their desire to avoid evil by simply denying its existence.

Just my 2 cents,

BMT

Some are evil (possesed), some are mentaly ill, and some make real bad choices. It is not easy to know which is which because evil spirits can appear as something other than what they are. In our society it should not matter why the crime has been commited.

We shoot rabid dogs, and for good reason.

I think "eye for an eye" would work.

Bill

I agree with PDS exactly. To me, it makes no difference why someone commited a heinous crime. A reasonable, rational and responsible society fairly determines guilt or innocence and then quickly metes out justice that permenantly protects society from the guilty. Bad choices, evil, bad seed, insanity, unfortunate upbringing; none of this matters. All that matters is that the deed was done and that it is never allowed to happen again. RS

D.

reminds me of.....

what is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath???

one tries to build a house in the sky and the other tries to live in it

brian

Interesting question.

Insane is really a legal term and good luck defining evil.

Insanity in a legal context has to do with someone's ability to differentiate right from wrong. A person basically has to be psychotic or comepletely out of touch with reality for an insanity defense to have any foothold.

What about crimes of passion? Judges and juries tend to be more lenient in some of these cases. It goes to the history of the defendent, i.e. He/she was a fine upstanding, law abiding citizen until he/she caught their spouse with someone else.

Robert D. Hare, PhD wrote a superb book titled "Without Conscience". He spent a lot of time in prisons interviewing convicts. Some were scarier than others.

In a nutshell, he developed a checklist for identifying the psychopathic inmates. A couple of the key attributes are; superficial charm or glibness; lack of a conscience; knowing the "rules" or societal mores but playing by their own and foremost, a lack of remorse.

He goes on to identify criminal and subcriminal psychopaths. Take my word for it, there are plenty of subcriminal psychopaths all around us. Look at the business scandals in the Wall Street Journal. You can bet some of them have some colorful characters at the forefront.

All criminals are not psychopaths. Some have other disorders which impair their judgement and impulse control.

If someone cannot control their impulses, it is easier to understand why they do the things they do and get into trouble. There are a number of personality disorders (psychopathy included) where impulse control is seriously impaired. Some of these folks may be honestly sorry for their behavior, but not have the tools to control it.

I've had the misfortune of meeting up with what I am convinced were a few psychopaths. Believe me, these are not folks you want in your orbiit.

Some folks complain how cynical cops are. Well, you probably would be to if you ran into as many psychopaths as these guys and women do in the course of their jobs. My hats off to them - I couldn't do it - LE that is. I think even I'd have trouble controlling my own impulses to extract "justice".

So, I personally couldn't label someone as evil, whatever that means. Yes, there are some seriously screwed up people running around free. But, until they do something outrageous that hits the media or lands them in prison, they exist under the "radar".

How about the runaway bride? Was she thinking of anyone but herself?

And, most are not "nuts" in the legal sense...

TM

TARGETS!

Some seven years ago I served jury duty on a murder case. We convicted. The defense then brought forth psychiatrists explaining how the guy wasn't responsible for his actions because of this-and-that.

Back in the jurors' room an involved discussion was under way to consider the opinions offered up by the experts in the courtroom. I held my silence until everyone had spoken their piece. When it was my turn I asked my fellow jurors if they recalled the look on the defendent's face when photos of the murder scene and subsequent autopsy were show ( the victim was an 82 year old widow ). Yes, they did recall the heinous look of pure joy on his face.

"Is that the look of an insane person, or an evil one?" I asked. "Do you really think that a truly insane person ( as defined by the defense experts ) would make the connection between the photos of the act and himself...or do you think he loved commiting the crime, as only an evil person could?"

We voted and unanimously selected the death penalty.

I agree with BMT and PDS. I see both types up close and personal because of my work. Some are truly scary no doubt.




Mac

I fall in the camp of don't matter why they done it. They done it and must bear the consequences.


I have developed a theory of society over a lot of years of observation.

People fall into three categories. There is one group who are bad. They were born that way and will always be that way no matter what advantages they have or what is given to them They are just bad people.


There is a second group, much bigger, who can be good or bad depending on circumstances. Who they are with, what is happening around them, how they were brought up, things like that.


The third group are going to be good. No matter what happens to them or what situations they find themselves in they are just going to be good. They are the saints of this world.

BCR

I am a Corrections Officer and I can tell you that some bad guys can be evil and some can be mentally ill as well. I have seen very docile and cooperative inmates (who had some mental issues) stop taking their psychotropic drugs because they were tired of dealing with the side effects. Once off the drugs they became very much the oppisite of docile or cooperative.
I have also come into contact with Arab terrorists and can tell you that when I have looked them in the eye I felt the presence of true evil. Psychopaths with an edict from Allah.
There are also individuals that have become addicted to drugs. I recall one inmate who seemed like the most pleasant guy in the world. I asked him one day how the hell he ended up in jail. He then showed me the "track marks" on both of his arms and stated that when he was addicted to Heroin he was a very agressive individual.
So, there are many reasons people end up being " bad guys". For whatever the reason, they need to be seperated from society for awhile or in some cases permenatly.

I used to have a church assignment that took me to the Nevada State Prison a couple of times a month.

My first observation is that there are a few that do straighten up and fly right, having learned their lesson. My hat is off to them. Prison is a corrosive environment.

A large percentage of inmates are mean, dumb, and don't give a rip about what they inflict on others. They need their own island.

Some are smart, and don't give a rip. Ted Bundy is an example. Scarey.

As stated before, most of us behave because we have an internal moral compass, and choose to treat others as we would like to be treated. A few people behave only because they fear the consequences of getting caught. And another group doesn't connect action with consequences, and doesn't behave.

There is no payout in punishing people who are seriously disconnected from reality.

I loved the post about the expression on the perp's face when he saw pictures of his crime. Right on.

Not necesarilly either.

They just need killin'. Prison time is second best.

Mental illness is just that, illness. Good people and bad people both get sick. Very few persons with mental illness are criminal and/or violent. As a group the mentally ill are no more criminal or violent than the general population. With due respect, those of you who deal with criminals and prison inmates are not seeing a normal cross section of the population, so you can't really extrapolate from your experience. All that said, there is a psychiatrist who wrote a book on the question of whether evil is mental illness. As I recall, I just read quotes from it and it seemed pretty deep and obtuse, at least to me. Still, I doubt that it would represent the mainstream of thinking of the psychiatric profession.

Paul

Evil or insane makes no difference to me. Wish it made no difference to the Court. Instead, "Sorry Mr./Mrs. ___ , your spouse's killer is nutz, and not responsible for his actions." I'd much prefer they get the needle regardless, they are all defective, and a clear and present danger by any standard.

Even given the fact that a bad guy is declared mentally ill, a further distinction could be made as to whether or not he chooses to stay on his meds. Someone who knows his own capacity for violence if he doesn't take his medications, has crossed the line to willful acts against humanity, in my opinion. And that amounts to evil in my book. There are states that have laws on the books, saying a mentally ill person will go to jail if he willfully goes off his meds and commits a crime. He will first be stabilized with meds on a forensic unit, and then he will hear the doors of steel slam shut. Unfortunately, there are states that release mentally ill crimminals after they have been stabilized with meds and sent to "group homes" in the community. They are the ones that often were violent towards others, inflicting mental trauma and terror on their victims and victims' families long after the actual crime was committed. They return to the community "healed", until they decide to go off their meds again. Its scarey and it angers me.

Hey T. if we could thin the herd and improve the gene pool without fear of repercussions, legally or spiritually, I'd sure be in line.

Fortunately, most of the real wingnuts eventually do themselves in figuratively or litterally.

Which brings me to the one biblical passage or scripture or whatever it is - that I remember for some reason and actually repeat to myself when tempted... vengeance is mine... if you believe in anything spiritually, this one can really free your mind.

The most useful college course I ever took was abnormal psychology. The second most useful thing I ever learned was to guard my association ie. who I associate with, diligently.

In other words, identlfy the wingnuts and the places they frequent and stay the f' away.

If that doesn't work - fight like hell and be ruthless...

TM