Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire "She was a great parent, a good person. ...

AMEN

Mark Twain used to say that condemning someone without due process was " � un-American � un-English! (It is French)."

'Course that was 'way before da innanet.

'Course not, too careful by half.

But answer the real question...Do you think she was Christian?




Sycamore

probably a deacon in the Church of Batshit Crazy Methheads. She'll do her time in a mental hospital.

This image speaks a thousand words. SteveNO's "batshit crazy" moniker is weirdly appropriate for these people. It's not a racial thing, and it's not just women/mothers, either... there are plenty of men in the news who slaughter their women and children (usually before turning the gun/knife on themselves) too.

The operative concept to keep in mind is that these people are the worst of the worst psychiatric cases; in medical terminology, we call it dissociative/thought disorder. Schizophrenia, schizoafffective disorder, postpartum depression and related illnesses. These people have come unglued from what the rest of us perceive as reality and are capable of bizarre and often horrific violence. These are NOT the sick, twisted premeditative psychopaths like Ted Bundy and Jeffery Daumer. These are people who start off in life as normal, healthy people, but at some point--usually in the late teens or early twenties--they start to drift into true madness.

In a few cases, these people experience their malady for a short period of time and then completely recover without much treatment at all. Some get better with medication. Some never get better at all.

The worst of these, in my experience as a clinician, are the young mothers who are susceptible to post-partum depression. I've seen happy, healthy women turn into actual monsters over a period of a few weeks. The damage they can do to their families is horrific. In some cases, they don't get better (Susan Smith seems to be one of these, from all indicators I've been able to assess thru the media, but that's an off-the-cuff diagnosis/prognosis at best...). In many cases they do, which in some ways is worse, because when they come around they are able to feel all the guilt and remorse any other normal person would feel despite the fact that they were "batshit crazy" when they committed their crimes.

If there is any good lesson to come out of this thread (which has devolved into something ugly in a number of posts) it should be a heightening of awareness that the people who burn their babies in ovens or drown them in their car seats don't just "snap"... there are indicators there, and we all need to be aware of them, because the next woman to kill her babies might be your wife, your daughter, your niece. A nice, good woman/mother, who slips sideways into madness while her loved ones stand around and do nothing.

A young mother who seems depressed and weepy is not someone you should tell to "snap out of it". It may be uncomfortable, but someone who loves her needs to ask her the hard questions: "Are you feeling hopeless? suicidal? are you having thoughts about harming your children?". No one asks these questions because they fear the answer will be "yes", and then they will have to confront the dilemma of how to get help for her.

"Help" isn't just getting her on medication. "Help" means people giving of their time and energy and money, investing of themselves in the young woman's life. It means monitoring her carefully to be sure she is truly getting better, and if she isn't, taking the time and care to protect her children.

The alternative is pulling burned babies out of ovens and such like.

and tragically in so many of these "families", there is no adult around who isn't also a drug addict, drunk, criminal and/or batshit themselves, so there's no one to sound the alarm and get the kids out of there.

DR,
I realize there are a million variables but in your professional opinion (and I have no idea what your specialty is) what percentage (I realize it'll be a guess) of people who have devolved mentally to the point that they are capable of killing their own children, do you believe are capable of being 'cured' (by any means) which would include being able to handle what they have done and go on to function safely in society?

Define what YOU mean by Christian....

And she blamed it on 2 black men which was dumb and an obvious lie. Most black men are trying to get away from and disown kids, not aquire them (from Chris Rock).

GLSU... in the case of postpartum depression, better than 75% are "curable" and can function normally after the post-partum period, but most of these will require antidepressant medication again, and possibly for extended periods, later in life. For the others, cure isn't an option.

I hate to say it, but there were good reasons these people were put to death in the old days.

I can see that (both situations). Thanks.

DR,

Thanks for the insightful post. Incredibly disturbing subject (and thread).

-Steve

Thanks for the offer, but I don't indulge in your preferred sexual practices. You might try a few other sites where the "boys" really like your type. You can surely find some receptive boyfriends somewhere.

Even if I had your predeliction I wouldn't be available. I'm headed to they gym for a good hard session of lifting to burn off some of the extra energy I've been wasting here, then to the rifle range to test a few loads. I've got a real life. Unlike you I can't waste too much time building my online reputation by spewing drivel to up my post count into the tens of thousands.

Enjoy yourself here. And keep that post count up, your boyfriend will think it looks great on you.

And from today's headlines.... http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20110303/623bd775-104f-43a0-849d-24c576438c08

I have always understood that people were innocent until found guilty does that no longer apply in this country. Every thing I have read so far is conjecture based on incomplete facts. Why don't we wait until the facts are known. Just my observation of the situation. Cheers NC

HUH?...911! lets check your oven!!

blow me

Very interesting post Doc and quite scary too in many ways.

How do you differentiate between the "evil doers" such Bundy and Daumer and somebody who is sliding into "true madness" through severe dpression or someother mental disorder?

Surely people like Bundy or Daumer must qualify as mentally ill to do the things they did?

No, Dahmer was just hungry.

A psychopaths World view is something along the lines of, "Life is a rat race and the head rat wins". They have an inability to empathize or care in any meaningful way for anyone else.

Many of them are very good actors and can fake it when pressed... in general they tend to bore easily and as a result tend to seek out high risk/excitement situations... a clinician needs access to past history be it legal records or collateral interviews with family or other associates to cross reference from...

There really is no clinical treatment for people with this personality disorder... the legal system is the best hope of setting enough limits to reduce the harm they will do to others...

Sadly the mental health safety net has been largely defunded... the last two companies I have worked for were run out of business by Medicare and other insurance audits. Auditors will pull say 100 charts and then claim that 12 did not fully document medical necessity... they will then extrapolate from that and recall 12% of all payments made....

The last person I spoke with still working in the County mental health system told me they have one full training day per month devoted to updates on how to write clinical notes to withstand insurance audits....

The State hospital system has lost so many beds that when someone is committed it often takes up a full shift of a deputy to transport them to the other side of the state when a bed is found...

Many people end up long term in the criminal justice system who could be treated for a variety of mental health conditions but due to lack of funding they fall through the wide cracks in the system...