Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What happened to Bob Hagel

I often refer to Bob Hagels book"Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter. He was writing for Wolfe Pub, but quit due to headaches. That was a while ago.
-Doc-

For Bob Hagel fans, another good book was "Game Loads and Hunting Tips", published in 1986. I just did a search for both books on Wolfe Publishing's Riflemag.com website and came up with nothing, but someone else may know where to obtain a copy.
I am also a great fan of Mr. Hagel, and would like to hear some stories by folks who knew him, or what became of him.
Milek, Hagel, Aagard, and Ken Waters were my favorite writers from 'back when', and are sorely missed. They helped shape my hunting, reloading, and ethics that I carry with me today.

Abebooks shows a Guns, Loads and Hunting Tips as a Wolf 1986 first edition. $29.70 hardback, near fine, repaired tears, and lesser priced ones down to $5.63.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

I don't know Bob Hagel personally but I read somewhere that he was incapacitated by severe headaches of unknown origin. I liked his writing.

I was hoping that Mule Deer would know. Bob Hagel wrote for Rifle and Handloader magazine for years. I was going back thru some old issues looking for an article he wrote on why the 7 Mag was throttled down and realized I have issues going back to 1970.
-Doc-

Have never met Bob, despite admiring him much. By the time I felt I could introduce myself somehow, I heard he was very ill and not up to receiving visitors. Haven't heard anything lately.

MD

A friend and I stopped in for a short visit where he lived in Gibbonsville, Id. on our way to an antelope hunt south of Salmon. While only there about an hour (and he had never seen either of us before) he came across as very friendly. Last I heard he and his wife had moved to Salmon. This was a couple of years back.

On our first trip over there we ran into a jeep with "Salmon River Raditor Shop " on the side and in the passangers seat was a guy with a hugh hat, double barrel shotgun, and a stogie- Big Hat himself, as he was called by the locals, Elmer Kieth.

He wrote a nice article on the 25-06 when it was a new factory cartridge. He inspired me to use the 75 gr HP on prairie dogs. It was a good decision. He wrote some very good books and I think I own them all. He was very enthusiastic about Nosler bullets and I always wondered if he was on the payroll? I miss his writing and hope he is well.
Great White North

When Bob Hagel was hunting and writing the Nosler partition was about the only reliable bullet one could use in a magnum rifle. That is the ONLY bullet Roy Weatherby used. In those days we did not have much of a choice. He and Bob Milek got me hooked on the 25/06. I had several perfectly good .270's and saw no use for one in my limited battery. Now I use it a lot on varmits,deer etc.
-Doc-
-Doc-

Reading these posts reminded me that I had a couple of Bob Hagel books that I have read and re-read. They are a wealth of information.

If anyone is interested I have posted a for sale ad for them on the classifieds.

I remember one article he wrote on the Ruger 77 in 7x57 mauser. He knew no limits in handloading and reported velocities of 2700 fps with the 175 gr. Those were less litigious times and he described the difficulty of compressing the powder to get the overcharge in there.

Hagel used a micrometer to measure case-head expansion when estimating pressure. His handloading book, while otherwise admirable and even ground-breaking, should be viewed as a testament to the unreliability of that method.

MD

In defence of Bob Hagel, who is probably my favourite all-time gunscribe, I would ask (anyone) how , in his time, could one determine acceptable pressures. I am well aware that equipment now exists that was not even a pipedream when he was loading or when I started in Jan. '68, so, we used the "traditional methods" and seemed to be successful doing so. What else could we/he have done?

Speaking of case head expansion as a means of deriving loading data, I believe that Ken Waters used that method for years and years. His reloading data and articles are by far my most favorite and frequently consulted reference over the years. I have always felt his data was proper and properly conservative. Realizing that brass can vary in hardness there are obvious pitfalls-but that could be said of any method I guess. Kudos to Ken Waters. Plateau Hunter

I knew 'em both very well and edited their work for years.

� Bob Hagel miked case heads (web expansion).
(Anybody got a "smilie" skull and cross-bones?)

� Ken Waters miked the expansion ring (forward of the web).

Big difference!

Both methods are misleading and perilous � Bob's much more so than Ken's. I used to have to edit and even delete Bob's load data. He bulged at least one chamber that I know of, but maintained that the load was "safe" � I assume because the rifle didn't fly into small, jagged pieces.

.

I never understood how .0002 case head expansion could be converted to breach pressure PSI or CUP. Bob Hagels loads were indeed max+. I recall reading that he increased the powder charge until he blew a primer then backed down a few grains. He said that was the only way one could determine what the max load actually was. I have blown a few primers but not on purpose. I do not know of a way to determine pressure short of putting a strain gage on a barrel.
-Doc-

Of course you can't convert case head expansion to PSI. What it does tell is that combination of components is creating pressure that is begining to force the brass into failure.
That should be enough information for anyone.
Good luck!

Kutenay--

Even when Bob was writing, many of his loads exceeded those in manuals by a considerable amount. And I cannot believe that as well-respected a gun writer as Bob couldn't have availed himself of the pressure testing equipment at one of the major companies in order to find out if he was at least in the right ballpark. Some of Bob's loads were so far off the wall that I can only believe that he just loved to hot-rod--and developed his "methodology" in order to let him do so.

As Ken notes, there is a major difference between measuring the case head, and deciding by some arbitrary amount of expansion that a load is safe, and measuring the pressure ring and comparing it to a case that had been fired with safe pressure--usually a factory round.

The big mistake in most case-expansion pressure-guessing lies in assuming that all brass is created equal, something that is easy to disprove. In my experiments I've found that Ken Waters' method works far better than case-head expansion--but only if brass of the exact same brand and lot is used, and expansion compared to factory loads or handloads of known pressure. Even then, if temperatures aren't close to the same when both loads are fired all bets are off.

Even back in those ancient times, Bob Hagel also had a chronograph, a far better method of estimating pressure (though it still has its limit). Evidently he didn't listen to it much.

MD

Bob is one of my all-time favorites, but his loads are at the outer limits. I shoot a lot of Ackley improved rounds, and I have found that when I use Bob's loads for the parent cartridge I am right at safe maximum for the improved round.

Thanks Ken for that very important clarification! If and when you speak with Ken Waters tell him hello and thanks from an appreciative reloader, hunter, and shooter. Plateau Hunter