Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Lets's do the math, Small caliber cartridges on game.

I've followed this and most of the other "is 223 enough gun" posts.
the only thing I see if those that think it is not, typically have no experience with 223 and the like when it comes to killing deer. those that have the experience all say a resounding yes there is more than enough power to kill deer.

yet you still get the dumbasses who without experience telling those who do it all the time that its either impossible or a horrible judgment call on their part. I have to scratch my head and say are you frickin serious? I thought the "how many have lost a deer due to the 223" thread would have put it to rest.

how can one argue with what obviously works for so many people? I would say if they are still arguing that there is no changing their minds and its a waste of time to try.
more states are allowing the use of .223's for deer, wonder why?

A bull I stumbled onto while coyote hunting back in the 80's. He was about 1/2 mile away when I got my eye on him and was in a great spot to close the distance. After a concealed stalk, I ended up bellying out onto the black knob directly behind me in the picture. The shot was about 150 yards. The rifle is my old Sako .220 swift. I wasnt about to pass up the chance to kill a 6X6 bull only because I had my swift along that day.



A B&C mountain goat taken in SW Montana with one shot from a Remington 22/250. Some folks consider mountain goats almost a "mythical beast" as far as soaking up thousands of pounds of bullet energy and calmly walking away...IMO most of that energy is absorbed in the rocks beyond the goat after the bullet passes through without the chance to hardly expand. I've seen four mountain goats taken with .22 centerfires and none of them needed to be shot more than once...



Mule deer buck I killed with my .220 swift back in 1985 with one well placed broadside shot at 100 yards. Sako .220 swift. The bullet used was a 55gr Hornady Spire Point. It passed through and left an average sized exit hole. That buck couldnt have been killed any quicker or cleaner with any other rifle or caliber...



Whitetail buck taken with one shot with my Sako .220 swift...

Sometimes its easy to get caught up in all of this "ballistics gack" as Dober likes to say....hell I'm plenty guilty of it myself...grin! The thing to try to remember is, shot placement trumps everything else, always has, always will.

sencarshooter,

If its true as you say above that "shot placement trumps everything else." Then consider the fact that a larger wound will improve "shot placement".

That a larger bullet will make a wider and deeper wound that will make it more likely to hit a vital organ or to dispatch the quarry faster!

Again, I congratulate you on the trophies and photography as well however I ask you: "Why do you use a small caliber?"

Not ScenarShooter, but my reason is simply because it works. I'd be willing to bet there would be a lot less wounded deer in the national forest here in Michigan if the guys who only shoot a box of shells a year through their '06's and 300wm's (that they THINK they need) would leave them home and a carry a 223/22-250/220/243. Bottom line Don, whether you choose to acknowledge the fact or not, is that deer really aren't that hard kill. Heck, I've seen coyotes here die harder than a lot of whitetails. This'll probably put you in stroke mode, but a widely know story in the family it that my Grandfather-in-law killed a few whitetail with a slingshot back in the day.

Of course he is pretty damn accomplished with a slingshot, click on this link. (grin)

http://www.slingshots.net/magazine/1999/slingmag1_1/Blue_Skeen.htm

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/Dec/23/shooting-a-blue-streak/

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/2559-blue-skeen/

Kind of self explanatory???

Seriously, I do hunt with larger rifles for most of my hunting..at least in the past few years. Mainly because of the ability to shoot effectivly at long range if I need to. Doesnt mean that I wont hesitate to grab my swift if its handy.

Try to believe that what I write and post is not bs....I have seen lots of big game killed in in the 25+ years of guiding and 45 years of my own hunting. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of big game animals shot at and shot with just about every kind of rifle and cartridge under the sun. My conclusion is and always will be the driver is the most important component.



I hope this makes you feel better....338 Lapua.

After reading (most of) this thread I'm starting to understand why a .22 LR waaaayyyyy overpenetrates on red squirrels.

I can understand asking Pat questions about shooting and hunting.

I would hate to be the one telling him what he is doing wrong considering his background.

Now the Poobah, that's an entirely different story..

sencarshooter,

You have not given a logical reason why you use small bullets on big game?

It cannot be denied that a larger bullet will improve "shot placement".

(Which by the way is not the only or most important consideration to dispatch the quarry).

It seems obvious that a larger bullet will be more humane and likely to get the game.

Like Brad said, "They work".....go back re read what I wrote under the mountain goat picture. In short, expended energy inside the cavity will leave a large enough wound channel to kill quickly and efficiently regardless of the bullet diameter.

Do small bullets work as well as larger bullets?

No they don't.

Then if you can shoot larger bullets why don't you?

You must agree that a larger bullet is more humane? You have already stated that a larger bullet will buck the wind better!

What do you do most of your hunting with Savage 99?

Okay, I'll bite...

Savage_99 - would you agree that bullet construction is better than it used to be? Would you agree that you can drive better constructed bullets at higher speeds?

If so, then why not use a smaller bullet, as they are now perform equivalently (or better) to slower, less stout, larger caliber bullets of yesterday.

Today's small caliber bullets have:
- better construction, so less weight lost
- less weight lost, so better penetration
- better penetration at higher speeds
- all giving more than adequate performance to take game

Your point is somewhat valid in terms of new small vrs old big.

However new big trumps new small.

The bigger bullet will be more effective. That's what we should want.

So this buck wasnt killed humanely because it was killed with one well placed .22 centerfire bullet?

You have me feeling much remorse for the hundreds of big game animals I've personally killed with said bullets.......laffin!

What cartridge and caliber do you do most of your hunting with, sir, since you must have missed my question...

Thanks...

When things change, when the quarry moves then the larger bullet is our safety net to cover that concern.

That's a fabulous buck by the way!

Your not saying that all you need is a .22 because your such a good shot or superior hunter are you?

Why do you use small bullets?

I never thought it possible for Lee 24 or Swampman to be out dumbphucked on the subject of rifles, shooting, and hunting but Savage 99 has trumped them both.

I switched to the 30-06 for deer in VT in 1955 and to the .358 Winchester in 1966. The bullet I used most in the .358 is the 200 gr Silvertip. Its outstanding on woods hunted whitetails.

Now that the 200 gr Silvertip has been discontinued I am loading the 180 Speer first over 4198 and now over RL 10.

You hunt in Vermont, or claim to do so, right?

Hmmm...

.22 centerfires are legal for deer in Vermont.

I know hunters that use the .223 on deer, neck and head shots...but that is a little light for me. Just my opinion...but I will shoot one with a good bullet in a .243.