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Campfire Ranger
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You come from your father and you go to your father.....who is your father? Ah, not me. I came from the Mother I go to the Mother. Father's don't have wombs. But than I follow a Goddess spiritual path. Well who got your "mother" pregnant.....? And what I was referring to was not an earthly father....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The precursers to living cells have were made out of just these components almost 40 years ago in lab experiments(amino acids) proving it was not only possible but probable. Get back to me when they make their own amino acids and elements out of nothing. It all had to come from someplace or someOne. The Bible tells you where in the first four words: In the beginning God....
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Here's the thing I just can't get my head around.
People say that faith in a Christian God - is a gift. I guess I was missed when that particular gift was handed out. I have found my faith - but it isn't in the faith of my ancestors.
I was raised in a Christian family. My Dad was schooled to be a Lutheran Minister - although he eventually chose another career after his schooling. My Mother was Methodist. I was raised in the United Church of Canada. My parents were wonderful people and we lived rich prayer filled lives. I even taught the teen youth group in church when I first moved out of my home. Familiar themes gave me a kind of security far from home.
But - I couldn't get the logical part of my brain to stop the questions. My brain needed logical answers. I always had the questions no one wanted to answer. I was told to rely on my faith. In my case, after over three decades, there was very little faith left.
I teach comparative religion to Gr.8 kids as a part of the prescribed curriculum. The more I learned about other faiths - the harder it became to believe my own Christian faith had all the answers to the exclusion of other faiths. I used to bring in guest speakers from different faiths to enlighten my students as to their own beliefs. I also was struck by the certainty that every non-Christian knew their own faith to be the one true one. That was the same with all of them. Except maybe the Buddhist lecturer - his branch of Buddhism was more a life philosophy than a religion - he said belief in God was optional. But other than him - every person of other faiths absolutely knew the other faiths were wrong - and theirs was right.
Personally I found myself doubting the idea of one faith being the only true one. I also couldn't wrap my head around the teachings of a loving God that put children in places where they could only be Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, animists or whatever. - so he could torture them in a lake of fire - forever - after they died. It made no sense.
So, still wanting to believe (against ever observation of nature) that I might be able to see people I loved after their deaths - and get to live on forever myself - because I do love every minute of the life I live - I became generically "spiritual". A theist, or deist. I wanted to believe in a generic God that could love all children - regardless of what their parents told them to believe - and regardless of where they were born on this earth.
Then, eventually I became an agnostic. I couldn't believe - but I wasn't capable of taking the next step - disbelief. So, I put the whole religious thing out of my mind - and contented myself with the thought that I'd just put all of my efforts into living the best earthly life I could live - and not worry about death - and what might happen after.
Eventually that didn't work either. I'm not one to not have a position. I took the biggest step - and took a position. I became an atheist. I accepted the lack of a God or gods. I also got rid of the idea that there is a devil, demons, angels, spirits and ghosts. My world started to make sense - to me. The more atheists I met (and many aren't at ease with "coming out") the more I came to identify with those kinds of people. The one thing I noticed with the ones I met was that, as a group, they were very good moral people who had come to their beliefs with much struggle, introspection, study and thought. None seemed to enter atheism lightly.
But there was a problem. Atheism only told me what what I wasn't. It defined me - by what I didn't believe in. It's been said that atheism is a religion. If that's true - not collecting stamps - is a hobby.
Atheism defined me - by what I didn't believe in.
But nothing truly defined what I did believe in.
That is, until my search lead me to Scientific Pantheism.
I had always believed I was part of the Universe. I always believed I was part of Nature. I was always in awe of the power of both of those things. I had a love for the earth that could only be described as thinking of it as a sacred place. I believe I am made out of the same matter and energy as the earth - and of the universe. I look at the earth and the universe with humility, awe, reverence and celebration. I have have have come from it, I am part of it, I will always be a part of it - even when my present form is changed.
I revere and love nature. With the same level of commitment to it that others find in relics, buildings, altars and sacraments. I was never fully comfortable in church. I am my most comfortable out in nature - in wild places. Close to the natural earth. It is there that I find answers to my questions and a sense of peace that can only be described as spiritual.
Life is not a path to somewhere else.
Life is the destination.
And so - I am an atheist. It does describe what I don't believe in.
But more importantly - I am a Scientific Pantheist. That philosophy fully describes what I do believe in.
My earthy faith struggles that dogged me since childhood are over now. I have no more doubts. I have arrived at a faith that fills me perfectly. It answers all of my questions. It defines my place in the universe. It brings me total peace. Total peace.
To those who find that in their present faith - I am happy for you.
I hope that people with other beliefs can understand the total peace and contentment that I find in my own faith - and allow me to share it with the same certainty and contentment that their own faith might bring them.
I have never been so content in my own beliefs - as I am now.
I am guilty of trying to spread my faith - as most believers do - from time to time. Just as when others try an convince me of their beliefs - I can't help but respond in kind.
I accept the motives of people of faith who try and share their own beliefs with me. I hope people can come to believe my own motives are the same.
When you find a belief system that totally sums up every thought within you - and answers all of your questions - you have found something precious.I have found that faith. Until you find "the next thing". That could be said for anyone - of any belief. Personally speaking, I know I never had a contentment level - when I was a Christian. I have that now. Possibly because of the responsibilities involved. Fulltime job, Brian.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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RickD
My basic knowledge of sub-atomic particles ends with protons,neutorons, and elelctrons. Things like quarks ect. are beyond my narrow scope of intrest. If you would like I could find some books on the subject that might be interesting (or not) can be fairly boring even if you are interested. It is all however based on observable repeatalbe experimentation. I have read alot on the history of the bible. How the king james bible came to be is really interesting. Nothing observable or repeatable there just what a committee decided and a king approved of.
"He is one of the Legion lost."
"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat- catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Brian,
Your place is beautiful! Nice job!
For what it's worth, I to was raised in a church. As I grew up I realized it wasn't for me. While I remain a spiritual person, I have no interest in organized religion of any sort. Including Christian dogma.
I would never try to talk someone out of their faith however. Just ain't worth the time, and serves no one.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Campfire Tracker
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I would never try to talk someone out of their faith however. Just ain't worth the time, and serves no one. One one level, you're right, but maybe you don't know how right you are. Jesus said of the Holy Spirit, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (John 3:8.) It's not us who talks anyone into or out of faith. The Christian's responsibility is merely to tell what he knows, not to convert anyone. That's not our job. This raises a question I've been wondering about. The 'fire here is pretty open to religious discussion, unlike many forums. It's interesting to see how unbelievers see things so differently from Christian believers. But with all the discussion, have the conversations here ever influenced anyone or played a role in converting to Christ? Steve
"I was a deerhunter long before I was a man." ~Gene Wensel's Come November (2000)
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Campfire Tracker
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Should God exist beyond the cognitive creation of mankind, what would be more important, ones beliefs? or ones actions? (Gus has been absent for a few days.) 
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Obama has a radio spot for the anniversary of the ADA, in it he states "we are defined not by our limitations, but by our potential."
Seems to me a person should be judged by his acts, not potential, not faith, not his beliefs.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Campfire Tracker
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Should God exist beyond the cognitive creation of mankind, what would be more important, ones beliefs? or ones actions? I'm convinced that's not the right question. It's a false choice. If one answers "beliefs," then we go all over the map with our view of beliefs. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder" (James 2:19.) They shudder with fear, so simply believing in God brings no benefit to us. If one answers "actions," then we fall into the trap of salvation through our own effort, a rejection of God's free grace and a denial of the necessity of the new birth. We in effect are saying we don't need the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. Avoiding that false choice, a better question is (in simpler language) "If God exists, then what problem does that present us with?" Steve
"I was a deerhunter long before I was a man." ~Gene Wensel's Come November (2000)
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Campfire Tracker
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So ones beliefs are more important than ones acts?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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So ones beliefs are more important than ones acts? that's a very good question.  while there are sins of commission, perhaps the sins of omission are more damning? one good reason for a final judgment, given the outcome, is to consider everyone's input and efforts in determining the final outcome. until all is said and done, who knows who contributed the most? was the effort a success, and if so, who gets the credit, and who doesn't? if it wasn't a success, who tried and failed, and who didn't try at all, or at least not enought? so many questions, and so little time.
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So ones beliefs are more important than ones acts? No, I didn't say that. Again, that's a false choice. My beliefs are not more important than my acts. Nor are my acts more important than my beliefs. It's not about me. Steve
"I was a deerhunter long before I was a man." ~Gene Wensel's Come November (2000)
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I like Blood, Sweat and Tears lyrics better.
Swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell,
But I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You come from your father and you go to your father.....who is your father? Ah, not me. I came from the Mother I go to the Mother. Father's don't have wombs. But than I follow a Goddess spiritual path. Well who got your "mother" pregnant.....? And what I was referring to was not an earthly father.... Kind of figured that and neither was I.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire Outfitter
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But with all the discussion, have the conversations here ever influenced anyone or played a role in converting to Christ?
Steve In a way, reading the discussions on the fire pushed me further away from Christianity( I was Catholic). Not even sure I believe in God anymore though I do believe in a higher being in some form.
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Campfire Tracker
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But with all the discussion, have the conversations here ever influenced anyone or played a role in converting to Christ?
Steve In a way, reading the discussions on the fire pushed me further away from Christianity( I was Catholic). Not even sure I believe in God anymore though I do believe in a higher being in some form. Interesting perspective -- I haven't seen anything expressed so unkindly that it would turn a person off, or any efforts to force any kind of belief. I've always thought that if there is a higher being (to use your words), one who created us and all that there is, wouldn't it make sense that he would, in some way, want to communicate with us? Maybe not with skywriting, but in a way that's more integral to his creation -- such as the heavens declaring the glory of God? And wouldn't he want, in some way, to help us with the brokenness that we all know? Maybe not in giving us a life of ease, but by "the Word" becoming flesh, and dwelling among us. To me, regardless of the differences among Christian churches, it makes sense that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19.) Steve
"I was a deerhunter long before I was a man." ~Gene Wensel's Come November (2000)
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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.....
I've always thought that if there is a higher power, one who created us and all that there is, wouldn't it make sense that he would, in some way, want to communicate with us? Maybe not with skywriting, but in a way that's more integral to his creation -- such as the heavens declaring the glory of God? And wouldn't he want, in some way, to help us with the brokenness that we all know? Maybe not in giving us a life of ease, but by "the Word" becoming flesh, and dwelling among us.
.... You mean he only wanted to communicate with some of us. If I'm to believe what I read, my chances of being saved and gaining entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven are based in large part on luck of the draw. If I happen to be born in the ME, China, Russia or any other country where Christianity isn't the prevalent religion, I'm going to be raised under a different faith and teachings and therefore according to Christians, I'm doomed to hell. The whole argument is so ridiculous and without logic it was hard for me to keep believing. I mean if there really is only one God,..the Christian God,...why would he only communicate with those lucky enough to be born into Christian countries?
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Nothing seems to convince me there is or isn't a God. I think religion and church are man made not 'God' made. They say God created the universe and all in it. Where did God come from? Was he created? Did he come from a 'big bang' or did he evolve? If he was created who created him, who does God answer to?? Which came firas the chicken or the egg.
I grew up in a christian home, Grandfather was a Baptist preacher, always fascinated me that all the church people declared feeling the spirit of god, I was open to it, I got baptised, did all the things others did, I begged God to let me feel the spirit, to feel the wonderful things all the others witnessed about. I got nothing, always felt from an early age that all these people were being hoodwinked by the church, even at 6 or 8 years of age I felt that they were being duped, yet I carried on pretending with the practice to keep the family happy. They all pretended to be happy and blessed with their faith and the road to everlasting life, but I could sense and feel the fear and desperation of their lives of their constantly proclaimed faith, the fear of the unknown, the needy grasping at straws of so called salvation for relief, for a soothing paton the head and affirmation that everythings going to be ok.
I feel no different today 40 some years later. I don't concern myself about it too much though I find it an interesting subject at times. I figure if there is a God he will show himself to me, cause i'm tired of asking, otherwise he will just simply have to put up with me the way he 'created' me. I live a cleaner more honest life than most 'faithful believers'. I don't know or care much about athiests, agnostics, or 'scientific pantheists', catholics, intelligent designers, aliens, baptists, buddhists, hindus, scientoligists, muslims, etc. Life is to short.
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.....
I've always thought that if there is a higher power, one who created us and all that there is, wouldn't it make sense that he would, in some way, want to communicate with us? Maybe not with skywriting, but in a way that's more integral to his creation -- such as the heavens declaring the glory of God? And wouldn't he want, in some way, to help us with the brokenness that we all know? Maybe not in giving us a life of ease, but by "the Word" becoming flesh, and dwelling among us.
.... You mean he only wanted to communicate with some of us. Who can't read the creation itself? And when the Word became flesh, he became one of ALL of us. If I'm to believe what I read, my chances of being saved and gaining entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven are based in large part on luck of the draw. If I happen to be born in the ME, China, Russia or any other country where Christianity isn't the prevalent religion, I'm going to be raised under a different faith and teachings and therefore according to Christians, I'm doomed to hell. The whole argument is so ridiculous and without logic it was hard for me to keep believing.
I mean if there really is only one God,..the Christian God,...why would he only communicate with those lucky enough to be born into Christian countries? All the Christians I know trust what the Bible says on that -- "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?" Christians are often accused of setting themselves up as judge, but on this point, why can't non-believers let God be the judge? Steve
"I was a deerhunter long before I was a man." ~Gene Wensel's Come November (2000)
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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So ones beliefs are more important than ones acts? Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God� 9 not by works, so that no-one can boast. Faith in Christ gets you into heaven. No amount of good works can do that. But then read the book of James. He builds on this by saying that faith without works is dead. Just getting there isn't enough. Christ wants us to put our faith to work, not just sit on it.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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