Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Heavy recoil, detached retinas, etc.

Gentlemen, lives there a man with soul so dead that he's never dreamed of owning and shooting a real "elephant gun?" I doubt it.

Here in Ga., it's kinda' hard to justify building a .458, which would probably be the most "practical" of the "elephant guns," but .... I've long thought of it anyway. Doubt I'm the only one.

One morning, though, I woke up and was no longer "10 ft. tall, bulletproof and immortal." Darned depressing thing to happen, but .... it DOES happen, you know?

I have a buddy who has an eye disease that's something like a detached retina, but more serious, and nigh unto impossible to treat. The doc said it's likely he'll go blind in his right eye at some point, and knowing he's a hunter, advised him not to shoot anything of heavy recoil. Even advised him not to shoot his nice custom #1 in .338. Myself, I have floaters in my eye now, and my vision's never been all that great either.

My question is this: How much danger is there in shooting heavy recoiling rifles over time, and what is the liklihood of damage (to eyes and other body parts and functions) from shooting the "elephant rifles?"

If I had a .458, I'd probably shoot 99% reduced lead bullet loads equivalent to Trapdoor or 1895 Marlin .45/70 levels. There's really no use to go "hotter" around here, and I've FINALLY learned I need to take better care of myself than I have typically in the past.

This is a serious matter, and one I don't see discussed much or often, so any advice would be well appreciated. Might keep me from building that #3 into a .50/110 or .50/90, and "heating it up" in that strong action.

Blackwater,
You can do a search on this and my apologies for not being able to remember which thread it was in but there was a great discussion on this very thing a few months back. Big Bore thread, maybe?

You are right and it is a serious matter.
Old Toot

Your eye doctor will tell you to abstain from shooting any shotguns or centerfire rifles if you have an eye injury that is trying to heal, or if you have recently undergone cataract or other vision correction surgery.

Shooters have died from heart attacks brought on by blood clots moving from their shoulder after an afternoon of heavy bird shooting.

Blackwater I recall that John Wooters had the same situation at one time and he was forced to shoot lighter recoiling guns and even wrote a piece about it. Never heard the final outcome though.

Gee, What a bunch of wusses.
Seriously though, the recoil from the big bores and even smaller magnums can not only be painful but is capable of doing damage to the shooter. Maybe some real writer (JB you out there?) could discuss this with some MD's and physical therapists and write up a piece or maybe one of you MD's out there can enlighten us.

Never really thought of myself as a wuss, but ------.

I'm not sure that physical size has anything to do with this issue but I weigh 170 and am 6' tall. I jog and am in pretty fair shape, 51 years old.. A few years ago I started shooting a .375 quite a bit even though it wasn't needed for what I hunt in Texas. Sure was fun though. Last winter I built another and was wringing it out on the bench, it is a 9lb rifle. After about 30 shots I was starting to feel it. After 50 it had become painful. My spine from about my shoulder blades to about mid neck was hurting.
Man, I couldn't sleep for about 3 weeks because of the pain. I've had a MRI and undergone some drug treatment and am still having quite a bit of discomfort.. I'm not sure what's next but I'm here to tell you, I'm still hurting and not just a little bit.

Draw you own conclusions, but I don't think I'll be "plinking" with any heavy hitters from now on.. And yes, I know the .375 has only moderate recoil, that's why I liked it so much, great hog rifle !!

That's why the gunsmiths at Holland & Holland, Webley, Churchill, and Purdey shoot big rifles from a standing rest, not sitting.

If you want to shoot a big bore, then by all means buy one and do so, just do it inteligently. A Past mag recoil pad on the shoulder does wonders. When shooting full patch loads, don't do it from the bench, do it standing with either a rest for your forearm hand, or an elevated benchrest. Limit the amount of full patch loads you shoot in a session, for me thats about 10 rounds in the 458 Lott, on off days it's less. Most important is if you don't feel up to it, shoot it on another day. Make the rifle heavy, 10-11# is a prudent minimum weight for a comfortable 458. If you need a muzzlebrake, then get the gun braked. Shoot reduced loads. There are few things more fun than shooting 470 gr cast bullets at 1100 fps from my 500 Jeffrey, just like a giant 22rf.

Just call me a wuss. Most of the bigger shooters I know feel people will laugh at them if they shoot a smaller gun and they usually come home from the range with at least a splitting headache. But we can shoot our 54 cal ML all day with no problems because they don't have that sudden heavy jolt to just one side of our body. Due to horse injuries in the past, I swallowed my pride and went to a 6MM Rem and never looked back and it works fine for anything and everything I shoot. Maybe our bodies weren't designed for that sudden wicked jolt of big bores. A wuss.

I'll second that. I see no reason to try and be "macho" when practicing. There's simply no point. Use padding. The Past pads are very helpful. I'm particularly fond of their "Super Mag Plus" which is a full inch thick.

I have just as much fun shooting a 22 rf as a 500 Jeffrey. I have nothing to prove to anyone, and it's not why a shoot a big gun on occasions. The big guns can be fun. I don't think less of those that don't like them, as I can certainly appreciate those that don't care for recoil.

The point is, if you really want to shoot a big gun, then you can do it without getting hurt, so long as you approach it sensibly. I wanted to shoot a big gun, so I picked up a 458 Lott, the biggest gun I'd shot previously was a 35 whelen. I didn't even work up to max loads, I got some 500 gr bullets started with max 458 win mag data of Finn Aagard's and worked up to a max in my gun. I found out a big gun can be shot with no ill problems, but shooting sessions have to be limited, and some days you just aren't up to shooting the big gun.

I've subsequently found reduced loads make the big guns even more versatile. You can load a big bore rifle down to the levels of a revolver, and all the way the up. The revolver level loads are big heaps of fun. There is a time delay from the sound of the rifle going off to the slap of the lead slug hitting the target backer, and big lead slugs slap hard. There is also mild recoil, and typically very good accuracy, 2-3 moa.

Just as a Ferrari doesn't have to be driveng 170 mph to be fun, a big bore doesn't have to fire full patch loads to be fun.

The flashbulbs went off in my right eye the last day of April, 1993. I had shot a jillion shot shells at skeet and trap from 1960 on. Afterwards, I sold my 12 gage and bought a 20, 28 and 410. I now confine my shooting to 22's, both rimfires and centerfires, except for my 7mm Mauser in hunting season.
The fix was 300 laser shots around the tear in the retina. That wasn't fun sitting in a dental chair with my retina under attack. And, the probability of having a second tear is too high to flirt with.
I'm happy shooting the small stuff now, and extremely happy to have sight in the eye, my right eye. I'm right handed.
Don

While this does not relate to retinas, it is nevertheless a way to reduce recoil fatigue.
D'Arcy Echols shoots at the same range as I, and many of the guns he builds and sights in are large caliber magnums. I learned from him to wear a football mouth guard. It keeps your lower jaw from whacking the upper during recoil, and reduces the common post-shooting headache. I even use it in extended sessions of mid caliber (280, '06) and certainly once I get up to .338 and above.

For range sessions at the bench I either use one of the lead sled type bench rests or a small 10# bag of lead shot between me and the rifle.

This is one subject I usually chime in on, as I have experienced retinal separations which I am pretty sure were due to recoil, and not from a really big kicker either. In my case it was a .338 WM that did the job. There's a lot of difference in the amount of recoil that different individuals can tolerate without damage. Also, I doubt if such things as a PAST shoulder pad will help against retinal damage, as they don't really lessen the amount that the head gets whipped back (like taking a jab in the boxing ring), though they do lessen the blow on the shoulder. I was using a PAST, BTW, when my separation happened.

I have done some research into this. Retinal detachment is a very real danger if we shoot hard-kickers--or even shoot medium-kickers a lot.

Bob Brister suffered a detachment after many years of shooting competitive shotgun sports--and was lucky, according to his doctor, to not have lost the sight in his eye. An operation fixed things.

John Wootters did lose the sight in his shooting eye, or most of it, and subsequently switched to handguns for his deer hunting because of the loss--so he could shift the whole gun over to his other eye.

This has happened to a lot of people over the years. Aside from shooting hard kickers a lot (and here hard kickers can also mean shotguns, as the average 12-gauge trap load kicks a LOT harder than most of realize) there are several factors that contribute to detached retinas.

Age is one; it happens a lot more to people over 50, though isn't limited to them. It's also more common among people with high blood pressure, diabetes, and several other diseases common in America--and not always treated. Very often we don't know we have them--until it's too late.

So if you do shoot hard kickers--or medium kickers a lot-- see your doctor and talk about it, especially if you're over 50.

MD (not a medical doctor)

Good info. Thanks for posting it.
I was 59 when my retina detached. Not knowing what was going on with my eye, I didn't respond as quickly as I would do so today. It happened on a Saturday afternoon while I was straightening some knife blades with a torch. I thought that might have been the cause of the flash bulbs going off in my right eye. My wife was a nurse, and she immediately called her eye doctor at home. He told her he wanted to see me Monday morning at 7:30AM, before his office hours began. I used Murine and Tears, which had no effect on the lights in the eye, but I wasn't aware at the time why they didn't work.
Monday morning I was in the Doctor's office where he looked in my eye with some lenses used for eye work. It only took about 2 minutes for him to say that I needed to see a retina specialist who, by luck, was at his east Detroit office that Monday. The office was, by luck again, just across the street from the Hospital where the general eye doctor had his office. I walked across the street, sat and waited about 30 minutes for the retina guy to finish his last patient. He too a look in my eye, and we walked back across the street to the hospital where he proceeded to tack weld my retina back in place with the 300 laser shots.
From what I've learned since then, 24 hours seems to be the time within which someone with a torn retina should see a retina guy for the repair. The probability of the retina completely separating after 24 hours is very high, which means loss of sight in the eye.
I have no diabetes, or any other diseases. My blood pressure has been 120/70 for the last 71+ years. 12 gage shotguns, and a few big kicking rifles are the cause, mostly the shotgun shooting however. Much of the 12 gage shooting was with a Winchester Model 12 and an over and under, which are heavy kickers. Later I got into a Remington Model 1100 which is a little more user friendly as far as recoil goes.
Don

I started playing with paper patched bullets in a 45-70 and ended up building a 458 to test the limits of these bullits. Ended up with a 420gr @2600. Was shooting about 150 rounds a whee. for servel mouths. Truned out to be fun! No eye damage and I still shoot it a lot. Even used it on deer las winter.

I wear a PAST Super Magnum pad for about anything over a .223, when shooting from the bench.

However, I have to say that one day when my back was out of whack somewhere between my neck and shoulder blades, I shot my .375 H&H from the bench and got a really nice chiro adjustment!

Hmmmm, maybe I should shoot my .375 left handed a bit.. Might offset my problems from shooting right handed..

I'll let you know how it turns out ....