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Tonk -

There are those here who swear velocity doesn't matter, some who swear bullet weight doesn't matter and others who swear energy doesn't matter. If those are true, what could possibly be wrong with a .22 Mag for big bears? CB Caps for everyone and we can all save a lot of money...

The whole "energy doesn't matter" canard is on of the more disingenuous arguments that happens around here...

It might matter if you could get a consensus of opinion on what it is....and what it does.... and how relevant it is;but you can't because the concept and its effects are too vague and obscure.

It's biggest shortfalling is that it fails to take bullet placement and construction,expansion, etc., into consideration....it is mostly voodoo,and like other attepts to quantify "killing power",it falls on its face....mostly.

It has tremendous meaning if you just hold a couple reasonable things constant- like bullet construction and placement.

It's the "22/250 has the same energy as a 45/70" crap that I'm calling disingenuous.

Sorry Bob, not meaning to sound so aggro; I'm on a string of 12-Hr days with another about to start here...

So where do you rate the 44 magnum and 454 handguns? Elk cartridges yes or no?

BobinNH �

You are correct � energy isn�t the only thing that matters. Nevertheless, other factors being equal, energy levels can make a huge difference.

At the end of the day, ALL the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal. It�s kind of like free falling at 125 mph � it isn�t the velocity that kills you, it is the sudden stop (energy transfer) at the end of the fall.

CH: In some respects I think we are saying/thinking the same things....and when it comes to formulas I must admit to being something of a dolt,because charts and formulae induce me into a deep coma.....

I look at it this way and am sure you will understand because you and I share similar views in the type bullets we like to use.

I have noticed, for example, that (say)Bitterroots (like Northforks and Aframes)make more severe and extensive wounds,the faster they are driven;tend to work "better" at distance from magnum cartridges as distance increases,than from standard cartridges...although they kill well from both,but expansion is more dramatic from (say) those started at 3200 fps than those started at say 2800 fps.

The broad frontal area from higher velocity is what seems to do the damage,coupled with the penetration from good weight retention.

But if we take the same bullet,make it a solid,so that it does not expand,damage is less severe....yet,if started at the same velocity,that solid bullet has the same "energy" as the Aframe or Northfork;yet the wounding effect of the two is dramatically "different".....

No doubt there is "energy" at work here butit always seemed to me that the "energy" has been used in expanding the bullet and in overcoming the resistance presented by the flesh, muscle and bone of the animal;and within limits the broader frontal area of the expanded bullet is what administers the damage,and creates the wounding effect we all see.

My problem with all of this is that I view it all as being a mechanical function,and whether it can all be set forth in a quantitative formula, to predict killing power from a chart or table,is difficult for me to follow,because I can envision circumstances where a 140 gr bullet,from a 7x57 (as an example),can inflict more sheer "damage" to a deer, than a stoutly constructed 250 gr bullet from a 338,which possesses a much higher "paper energy" level...

This may well be because I am a bit lacking in quantitative matters.....and I may be falling down in expressing myself here, but I think you get my drift

Which is why I say that the formula is not of much use in predicting "killing power"(which has been the major reason for the energy tables use over the years),and why I say that much more depends on bullet action (and placement) than construction....but maybe something has gone completely over my head here, which is entirely possible!

BobinNH �

We�re on the same page. Energy transfer may be responsible for the damage, but damned if I�ve ever seen a formula that can reliably predict an outcome � the variables are just too complex. Lots of energy, applied slowly, can go virtually unnoticed. (How much energy does gravity apply throughout the course of a day?) Far less energy, applied rapidly enough, results in massive destruction. Broadheads work on exactly that principle � energy transfer focused in a very tiny area (the razor-sharp blade edges) and applied fairly quickly, resulting in the non-elastic deformation of the flesh and bone (i.e. cutting). The numbskulls who talk about the relatively low fpe carried by an arrow, when compared to a bullet, need to do the math on how that energy gets applied and the difference in fpe applied per square inch of frontal area per second between the arrow�s blades and the bullet.

That said, and other factors being equal, I�d rather put the big bop on an elk using a bullet with 2000fpe than the same bullet with 200fpe. Change the bullet designs and weights and things get pretty murky pretty quickly, even with similar energy levels.

Sorry - not true. The simple transference of energy via bullet doesn't tell the whole story. The part left out is the bullet itself first hitting tissue/organ/bone and in turn the effect that has on overall systemic function. Second, the free fall analogy is incorrect; while you're right the free fall itself even at 125 mph won't kill you the resultant systemic trauma then failure caused by the damage done by the sudden stop kills you not the sudden stop itself. If your statements were accurate there would be no one who survives lightning strikes and plenty do every year.

You may want to re-read what I wrote. What I said was �all the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal.� The �effect that has on overall systemic function� that you mention is a direct result of that damage, which obviously would include the bullet hitting flesh and possibly bone. Look at it this way � if NO energy is transferred, NO damage is done and there is NO �systemic effect�.

As to the free fall and the sudden stop, it is once again the damage caused by the rapid energy transfer during the stop that creates the �resultant systemic trauma �. No energy transfer means no damage, no death, no injury.

Many people do survive lightning strikes every year, many others die. The differences are many but the amount of energy transferred and the manner in which it is transferred is key. Sometimes most of the energy actually passes around the outside of a person�s body, resulting in various degrees of injury, sometimes it passes through the body and fries body parts to a carbon crisp or even vaporizes them. Most survivors, I suspect, are like my brother and his friend � victims of a near miss that burnt some clothing but did little else. Once again, however, if no energy is transferred, no bodily damage is done and there is no injury or death.

I never suggested �simple transference� of energy was responsible. In fact, if you read my previous response to BobinNH you will see that I specifically discuss the importance of the time element (as in �sudden� in �sudden stop� in the post you quote from).

Damn strait they are and anyone that says there not are Dinky Dow...I have seen what they do on different critters and it's nothing short of amazing, yet I have seen a 357 Mag handgun take down a nice 6X6 right on the skirt of camp...My 454 Casull is always, not far off.

Best Elk cartridge or hunter?

Jayco

Jayco, you ought to get a real handgun like a 45 colt and quit messin with the new kids....

I do..45 Colts on steroids.. Actually,my to go load around here is a 300 grain XTP(reg not mag) at 1300 fps out of my Casull...You could shoot that puppy all day long one handed.

My son is wanting a 44 Mag or 45 Colt and I am pushing towards the Colt since I already have the reloading stuff and a ka zillion bullets.

Jayco

Which you fiugre is the better game killer?
The 453 casull handgun or the 45-70 300 gr bullet at trapdoor velocity?

That's a loaded question..I think there equal as the .007 difference in diameter is moot when the bullet is put in the same place.45-70 Trapdoor velocities are about exactly the same as 454 Casull loads with the same weight....

They both kill game deader than dead in skilled hands.Better yet,which is the better game killer out of either..Cast or jacketed..

Jayco

Not to early in the morning to pull the wool over your eyes....
Got to wonder tho how many of the ballistic experts around here are still scramblin for their ballistic spreadsheets. lol

PS I like cast with either a nice large meplat, or the roundnose variety of the government and early sharps designs.

That's how the state of Pennsylvania feels. We have a .27 caliber minimum on Elk.

Ballistic experts...You charmer,you.How far are you going to get here on the food chain talking like that..

For the ballistic experts....

Muzzle velocity-1650 fps
Bullet weight...420 grains
Bullet type.....Home Cast(Garretts Hammerheads)
Distance........275 yards...

Why is this Elk dead?



Jayco

Guess I never really give a spit about food chains and peckin orders, or what the cool kids thought.
But I surely do wonder about how some come up with the theories and righteousisms they do spout off with..