In that scenerio, I might actually opt for a bow and some arrows. If you can't get within a couple hundred yards of a bull in a situation like that, you should find a new hobby. But to answer your question, I'd just grab my 300, and would be comfortable out to 600 yards if the conditions were good. If I couldn't close the gap to 600 or better yet, 200 or so, I'd do a field penectomy on myself.
John Burns: I would take along my tried and true Remington 700 Classic in caliber 7mm Remington Magnum! This Rifle is equipped with an equally tried and true Leupold 3.5x10 variable A/O scope. It shoots the wonderful, reliable and lethal Nosler 160 grain Partitions REALLY well! Yeah that reservation Hunt would indeed be a "dream" as I certainly would not pay the asking price they are going for these days. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
Slam dunk 4 me John, I'd take my old 700 in 7 Mashburn Super. 4-14 Leo with Premier dotz to 700, Jewell and the load I've used the most of 7828 and a 150 NBT.
Then I'd just need someone like Greeenie to carry my bullets and tell me which one to drop the hammer on so I didn't shoot Ronny the Rat...grin
Even if I'd won the lottery I'd take my PreWar M70 in 30-Gov't-06. I may spring for some premium ammo over the 180gr Corelokts........or not. Any elk standing still 400 yards or under is in big trouble.
I'd end up flipping a coin between my .300 Weatherby with 180TSXs, and my more recent favorite the 338-06AI with 225 Accubonds. Be happy either way although the 338 is about 3 lbs lighter.
Something you can hit the vitals with at whatever distance you'd plan on shooting is the obvious answer. With the parameter that we're talking elk and possibly longish shots I personally would think the lower end would be some kind of fast 7mm.
I would use Remington model 721 300 H&H with a Leupold VXII 1.5x5x20mm duplex reticle. Shooting a Nolser 200gr. Partition handload that I inheraited from my father. My backup would be a Remington 700xcr in 270wsm with a Burris Euro-Diamond 2.5x10x44mm with the ballistic plex reticle. Shooting a Nosler 140gr. Accubond handload.
Let me see..I have killed Elk with my 270, 30-06 and 300 Weatherby..so I'll vote for my 30-06 loaded to 2800 and shooting 200 grain BBC...max yardage for me would be 400 yards...
I'd prolly take my 300WSM,it's already taken a few nice bulls.
It is built on an Ed Brown action and has a Rimrock stock,neither of which are avaiable now. It also has a 23 inch number two rifle contour barrel from Lilja and a Shilen trigger.It weighs less than seven pounds without a scope and shoots itty bitty groups.
It is also the rifle that taught me that it's better for me not to take shots at big game animals past 500 yards.
It dropped a dandy Gila Bull like a stone at over 800 yards,in the hour necessary to get to him across that canyon,the bull recovered enough to get up.
I never saw him again,he went off public ground and it was over.
Drawing from what I have, and have seen perform, it would be one of two rifles depending on conditions. IE, are we talking demanding, physical, mountain hunting or does this lottery include getting ATV'd to within a mile of where I'm hunting <grin>.
If it's a "normal" elk hunt, in other words very physical, I'd be carrying my M700 XCR in .338 WM, a 3-9 Conquest up top, loaded with 225-gn Accubonds at 2860 fps. This is an extremely accurate rifle and I've practiced extensively with it to 625 yards. I've yet to hear an argument against .338 WM for elk other than recoil. For whatever reasons that's a non-issue for ME with this rifle so there you go.
If, however, it wasn't a physically demanding hunt, I'd carry my M700 Sendero II SF, with a Zeiss 6.5-20x50mm on top, Jewell trigger set to 6 ounces, wingin' 200-gn Accubonds at that same 2860 fps. This is an extremely accurate rifle also and would give me a bit more reach.
It's very unlikely I will be hunting such a tag anytime soon.
In that scenario, it would be my tried and true "Green Bean", a 340 Wby with 210 TSXs at 3100 fps, a little tricked out, wearing a textured, green Brown Prec stock; hence the name.
In that scenario, it would be my tried and true "Green Bean", a 340 Wby with 210 TSXs at 3100 fps, a little tricked out, wearing a textured, green Brown Prec stock; hence the name.
................Which reminds me. I don`t have a nickname yet for my 338-378 Wby Accumark.
Have a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier which is dubbed,,,,,,,"mighty mouse" Got a 375 Ruger Alaskan which is dubbed,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Sarah"
Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark?
I'd take a Ruger in 30/06 and worry more about my binocular- Truth is, if any rifle had any substantive claim to being the best, that would be the only one you's see in the elk season. And I believe more hunters fail from having more rifle than they can handle than from having an elk get away from a good shot in the vitals with not enough rifle.
I'd prolly take my 300WSM,it's already taken a few nice bulls.
It is built on an Ed Brown action and has a Rimrock stock,neither of which are avaiable now. It also has a 23 inch number two rifle contour barrel from Lilja and a Shilen trigger.It weighs less than seven pounds without a scope and shoots itty bitty groups.
It is also the rifle that taught me that it's better for me not to take shots at big game animals past 500 yards.
It dropped a dandy Gila Bull like a stone at over 800 yards,in the hour necessary to get to him across that canyon,the bull recovered enough to get up.
I never saw him again,he went off public ground and it was over.
Naturally,your mileage may vary.
Did someone interject some truth and common sense into the issue of long range shooting? I think I'm going to keel over. My respect for you just went up immeasurably doc...and that's coming from a guy that actually likes to shoot long range.
Dave
p.s. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a better combination for elk than an '06 throwing 180 partitions. It should be noted that I shoot niether.
It dropped a dandy Gila Bull like a stone at over 800 yards,in the hour necessary to get to him across that canyon,the bull recovered enough to get up.
I never saw him again,he went off public ground and it was over.
There 'ya go right there.That about say's it all.It can also happen at shorter ranges but your not going to have many step up to the plate and talk about there failures shooting way past where they should be.
Anyone that hasn't seen a Bull get back up hasn't Elk hunted long.
I would grab my 338RUM and do a heck of a lot more practicing with it. Currently slinging 210 scirrocos, but those may go to 210 or 225 TTSX's next time around. I would be limited to 400 if all was perfect at this time. Hopefully I could get that closer to 500 or so with more practice.
If I could get driven around, the old 7mag might get the nod for nostalgic purposes. but it weighs about 10# and don't want to lug it around.
we don't allow no huntin round here, too many cattle, sheep, horses, buffalo.... yes, its me. been wondering how you've been doing. i don't usually do this, but saw a post when i searched your name, and it led me here. miss all our old times--i still talk to savage every so often. not many of us left. talked with beyl a couple months ago for a few hours--he's a great guy from way back. he told me about your stag. not many experienced shooters/handloaders around here, so at times i miss dat little bloodthirsy weazel...
Drawing from what I have, and have seen perform, it would be one of two rifles depending on conditions. IE, are we talking demanding, physical, mountain hunting or does this lottery include getting ATV'd to within a mile of where I'm hunting <grin>.
No quads on the rez, if you have a tag that you can kill a 380 bull, you'll have paid to have it retrieved. It's during the rut and shots will be close if desired.
Drawing from what I have, and have seen perform, it would be one of two rifles depending on conditions. IE, are we talking demanding, physical, mountain hunting or does this lottery include getting ATV'd to within a mile of where I'm hunting <grin>.
No quads on the rez, if you have a tag that you can kill a 380 bull, you'll have paid to have it retrieved. It's during the rut and shots will be close if desired.
Kent
I'm liking this more and more! This is an over the counter tag, right?
Actually it sounds suspiciously like a canned hunt. To be honest big horns aren't that big a deal to me. I'm in it for an honest challenge and good meat. I'd take my public-land raghorn over a canned-hunt Booner any day.
I'd probably use my Brno 21h 7x64. Or maybe my Sako carbine in 30-06. And I'd limit my shots to less than 300 yds. Anything farther than that is just shooting, not hunting - to me anyway. About angle - I don't shoot at animals going away from me any more. And I seldom shoot at animals facing directly towards me - unless I'm very, very sure of the shot. Interesting how the presence of "Really BIG" animals often makes people forget basic principles - like making sure of a clean kill. With enough technology a "hunter" can overcome just about any limitation. To me hunting is more about hunting skills than shooting technology. So, I'd call 'em in close and shoot 'em where it counts. Flame away!
Well there is certainty more than one �Rez� in the southwest that holds outsized bulls and having just come back from �The Hick� I can vouch for the fact that a long shot could present its self. (Wasn�t hunting just had breakfast in Dulce)
The point of my pointless post is what would you take when the hunt was going to be demanding and you really wanted to up your odds of scoring when the chance arrived.
This could just as easy be a public land hunt and you are carrying what you consider to be the absolute best elk rifle/cartridge.
So quit hedging your bets and pick one. See Mule Deer�s post as an example. No mincing words just right to the point. ( I will have to research this B-29. Sounds awesome!!)
I was wondering about that....In Idaho you hunt 'em all at the same time so you better pick a rig and bullet that works for all the critters,not just Elk.
Short story for you John.....I lived next to a Seal Team Sniper in North Idaho,actually,Athol.He had 67 confirmed kills..I watched him reload and go through his mind game and one day,like you have mentioned to another,it was a shooting match..
I said Okay as long as we use your rifle/your ammo randomly picked out of a 20 round box with three extra for me to get used to his trigger...
Never happened.
Hunting is a challenge and should remain just that
I might take my new Biesen 7x57, 150 NP's over some Rl 19, once BobinNH and I are done wringing it out. Even though my 7RM with 160's or 175's may be a better choice.
I'm no spring chicken so if I have the chance to chase elk around the backcountry I'd opt for something light and handy like a Kimber Montana in a 30-06, 180 grain Nosler Partitions if the rifle liked them. I'd have to find a range where I could shoot at longer distance than I do now and after much practice I would decide how far I am capable of getting the job done. I am going to assume that this is a guided hunt as I have never hunted elk so I wouldn't have a clue of how you do it. LOL!!! I'll bet that that hunt would sure be a blast.
3/4 going away I still have the last rib and that is a deadly shot for my combo. It won�t do the texas heart shot so I don�t take the straight going away shot on an unwounded bull. Wounded bull gets one in the pelvis and another in the chest when he collapses and turns.
I won�t trade the range or lethality I get with my choice for the ability to run a bullet through the paunch. Just my choice and one that has worked well for me.
The answer would be a cartridge that all men, women, youth in this world could carry all day, and accuartely shoot worth a [bleep].
Could it be?
.308win
My little 308 Kimber Montana has accounted for 3 elk... I'd be happy using it on any bull that walks within any reasonable distance (inside 600 yards).
I won�t trade the range or lethality I get with my choice for the ability to run a bullet through the paunch. Just my choice and one that has worked well for me.
I didn't like the way you talked to Stick but I am here...I will shoot with you and I am alot closer than Stick or little fish as you call him..Just call me little logcutter.
I am thinking you are one of the three that beet me at Fort Benning Georga in '67 when I only got 292 out of 300 pop ups silhouettes of a man with an open sighted M-14..I want a rematch..
I like posts like this. I'd pick a rifle I am very comfortable with: The one that makes the elk the most uncomfortable in my experience. A Ruger M77 MKII in 338 win mag, 250 grain sierra (good for short and long shots) bullet. Accurate enough? Hits hard enough? Is it as classy as my pre 64, hell no; but it gets the job done and in a hurry:
Yeah, I pulled the last one!!!!!! Pulled to the left huh, Yeah I shoot left handed
Well the hypothetical wasn't very plausible, being on a southwestern rez, even the Jicarilla. Late season Jicarilla, yes you may see them at distance, make sure you get a guide that allows you to shoot long range, second, if you hit an animal, that is yours, recovered or not. Make sure and tell your guide you will tip him no matter if you recover or not, he may let you shoot.
You come here.I can't afford to go there..No game/no stakes just two hunters shooting paper at whatever range you want with the same rifle/scope and ammo.
You come here.I can't afford to go there..No game/no stakes just two hunters shooting paper at whatever range you want with the same rifle/scope and ammo.
Maybe you didn't see the post he hammered Big Stick with..Owe well!!!!I will play.I am not the best shot born or the best Elk hunter, but I am also not the worst.We just disagree on what distance a lethal shot can be made time after time on game without game loss or suffering.
I disagree with 5-800 yard shots in the field and all the conditions.
Well I can understand how my behavior with Big Stick might have come across as me being an azz. In my defense he did make some rather disparaging remarks regarding my stock. I am going to try and act a little more like an adult in the future.
As to a shooting comp with me supplying the guns and ammo I have to say you would probably kick my azz. I am not the best shot in the world but I do build a pretty good system so I fear you might just hand me a whuppin and that is a long way to drive to get shown up.
[quote=goodnews] Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark?
[quote=goodnews] Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark?
Fat boy?
One shot wonder (wonder why the hell I just shot that thing!!!!), shoulder dislocater, Anything but accumark after the 2nd or 3rd shot
Sako 75 in 300 ultra with leupold 4.5x14x40 with target turrets shooting 180 grain nosler partitions. With this lot of RL25 it averages 3347 fps 15ft in front of the muzzle. I would try one at 600 yards but would feel better if he was closer to 400 yards.
[quote=goodnews] Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark?
Fat boy?
One shot wonder (wonder why the hell I just shot that thing!!!!), shoulder dislocater, Anything but accumark after the 2nd or 3rd shot
...............One shot wonder uh? Now that`s funny! The Accumark has a brake. My 375 Ruger Alaskan with no brake has more recoil.
20-40 rounds from the bench with either the Accumark or the Alaskan is fun. In my case, the nickname "one shot wonder" wouldn`t quite apply or be appropriate.
Well I can understand how my behavior with Big Stick might have come across as me being an azz. In my defense he did make some rather disparaging remarks regarding my stock. I am going to try and act a little more like an adult in the future.
As to a shooting comp with me supplying the guns and ammo I have to say you would probably kick my azz. I am not the best shot in the world but I do build a pretty good system so I fear you might just hand me a whuppin and that is a long way to drive to get shown up.
Yup, with enough technology, a shooter doesn't need hunting skills at all, just fine tuned shooting skills and and a "need to succeed" - kinda sad, but nobody said respect for the animals was a prerequisite! Seem like all that matters on this thread is bragging rights.
Coming from a bloke that fields a Model 21 in 7mm Brenneke....I take it that you just bit your tongue off when you typed that.
Well I can understand how my behavior with Big Stick might have come across as me being an azz. In my defense he did make some rather disparaging remarks regarding my stock. I am going to try and act a little more like an adult in the future.
As to a shooting comp with me supplying the guns and ammo I have to say you would probably kick my azz. I am not the best shot in the world but I do build a pretty good system so I fear you might just hand me a whuppin and that is a long way to drive to get shown up.
You win.
I don't know who "Big Stick" is, nor do I care. I "know" you from the "Best of the West" TV program. As someone who really does not care who can outshoot who, there is no doubt that you were on the receiving end of some pretty intense posting by "Big Stick". That appears to be his MO and he prides himself in it. As for myself, I am not much of a shooter but pride myself in being a good hunter. That said, I have no problem with those who take shots at great distances if they can make good hits. Over the years I have heard hunters complaining about long range shooting, "they don't believe in it". Like Ann Colter said of people who "don't believe in killing abortionist doctors", "If you don't believe in killing abortionist doctors, don't kill them!" All of the shows that center around long range shooting are VERY CLEAR in their message. Practice, practice, practice, before you ever take longish shots in the field and know your personal limitations. For me, 200 yards is a long shot. To others, maybe 400 yards. To still others, maybe 1000 yards. You are selling custom rifles and shooting systems. You are betting your systems on their merit. If someone wants to go up against your system and you, they should provide their own equipment. Best of luck with your business and try to ignore some of the rude and bitter posters on this site. By the way, why are you no longer featured on "The Best of the West" if I may ask?
On a once in a lifetime hunt, I would be more concerned with pack, boots and glass than the rifle carried in my hands.
Exactly. I'll add physical fitness to that too. Don't want to be huffing and puffing on a hunt of a lifetime. I'd grab my 7wsm Kimber Montana and then worry about the stuff the needs to be worried about.
You seem to be struggling with the point. If the particular �Rez� has 380 bulls around every corner I will be looking for a 400+. I am not going to shoot the first representative bull on the hunt of a lifetime.
You seem to be dwelling on the �Rez� part and not getting the pick the �best elk cartridge� part. Give it another try.
Rancho Loco,
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
No, I understood you were using the rez as a leader for a long range topic in the elk section. I just don't want people to think they need something they don't. You can talk about the weapon and I'll talk about the hunt itself, no problem.
I would take my .338 SS Classic M70 in a McMillan stock with a 2.5-8x36 Leupy and iron sights. Cut to 23" it is a bit over 8#.
It is well below MOA with 5 loads that I have for it.
Load would be the old 225 TBBC HE load. I have lots.
Sort of a mid range setup but that is my choice.
I am sighted in 3.0 in high at 100 yards at the moment. I have shot it a lot out to 300. We have a 1000 yard range but I have only shot it out to 600. For the described range I might go up to 3.5 in at 100 yards and verify the new zero and drops to 600.
I prefer getting closer to shooting further for the heck of it.
A monster bull would be a thrill but only if I got to hunt for it.
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
Did you say blisters??
Luckily this pic wasn't taken after a hunt, but I did nearly repeat the condition about 2 weeks later trying to help a buddy on a hunt. I will say this, these blisters lamed me up enough that it wouldn't have mattered what rifle I was carrying as I wasn't going too far too fast for awhile...
With all due respect Mr. Burns, picking the wrong pair of boots on an elk hunt can do more than "give you a couple of blisters".
For MOST people, the hardest part of an elk hunt is simply finding the little devils. They can be sucessfully taken with a variety of calibers as all the comments from members of the campfire will testify.
Of the 15-20 bulls I've killed, I know that every single one of them could have been taken with an '06 and 180 grain partitions...though in fact none of them were.
The boots I wore for 10-14 hours a day ascending and descending 2k-4k feet a day were FAR more important to me.
I think hunting style has a lot to do with where a hunter places value. I suspect that MOST expereienced elk hunters will tell you that the implement of death matters far less being able to find the critters...which is where good boots, packs, etc. come into play.
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
No such critter exists. My favorite elke cartridge that I have is my .375 H&H loaded with the Sierra 250 gr BTSP over a healthy dose of RL-15. With this load I would go out to about 400 yards.
Well I can understand how my behavior with Big Stick might have come across as me being an azz. In my defense he did make some rather disparaging remarks regarding my stock. I am going to try and act a little more like an adult in the future.
Awwww! Dang it all to heck.
Big Stick doesn't hesitate to come at people hard; from the cheap seats it just seemed like you called his bluff.
On the other hand, being a peace-love-and-understanding kind of guy, I'm all for BS moderating his behavior just a "bit", which would then mean there's no reason to be callin' bluffs and having pizzin' matches and whatnot.
But in the end I do think it'd be way cool if the two of you would have a shoot-out. Err, I mean a shoot-off. I'd expect both of you to do pretty well at practical riflery. It'd be great fun.
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
Did you say blisters??
Luckily this pic wasn't taken after a hunt, but I did nearly repeat the condition about 2 weeks later trying to help a buddy on a hunt. I will say this, these blisters lamed me up enough that it wouldn't have mattered what rifle I was carrying as I wasn't going too far too fast for awhile...
I thought we all agreed about that particular picture being officially banned from the campfire...(grin)
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
No such critter exists. My favorite elke cartridge that I have is my .375 H&H loaded with the Sierra 250 gr BTSP over a healthy dose of RL-15. With this load I would go out to about 400 yards.
Obviously this thread wasn't intended as a discussion on hunting trophy elk on southwestern reservations during the rut and what cartridges may be best in that context. Any info I'm willing to share on animals, conditions, guidelines, regulations and how it may relate to cartridge choice seems not to be relevant I suppose.
If threads on the fire are going to be info commercials, same as hunting shows on TV really are just commercials with no real substance. Please put an advisory at the beginning so most of us won't waste our time replying to the topic.
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
A blister can turn normal 10 mile days into 2 miles. A pack needs to fit and WORK to get in and out comfortably.
Like the wise men have said.. Killing an Elk is the easy part. I just need to find them, I'll kill them with a rock if I that's all I have.
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
Did you say blisters??
Luckily this pic wasn't taken after a hunt, but I did nearly repeat the condition about 2 weeks later trying to help a buddy on a hunt. I will say this, these blisters lamed me up enough that it wouldn't have mattered what rifle I was carrying as I wasn't going too far too fast for awhile...
[quote=goodnews] Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark?
Fat boy?
One shot wonder (wonder why the hell I just shot that thing!!!!), shoulder dislocater, Anything but accumark after the 2nd or 3rd shot
...............One shot wonder uh? Now that`s funny! The Accumark has a brake. My 375 Ruger Alaskan with no brake has more recoil.
20-40 rounds from the bench with either the Accumark or the Alaskan is fun. In my case, the nickname "one shot wonder" wouldn`t quite apply or be appropriate.
With all due respect Mr. Burns, picking the wrong pair of boots on an elk hunt can do more than "give you a couple of blisters".
For MOST people, the hardest part of an elk hunt is simply finding the little devils. They can be sucessfully taken with a variety of calibers as all the comments from members of the campfire will testify.
Of the 15-20 bulls I've killed, I know that every single one of them could have been taken with an '06 and 180 grain partitions...though in fact none of them were.
The boots I wore for 10-14 hours a day ascending and descending 2k-4k feet a day were FAR more important to me.
I think hunting style has a lot to do with where a hunter places value. I suspect that MOST expereienced elk hunters will tell you that the implement of death matters far less being able to find the critters...which is where good boots, packs, etc. come into play.
I agree 100%. Of course, once you find the right boots, there's nothing to it--it's not like messing around tweaking rifles and loads and such, and not nearly as much fun to go boot shopping as it is to go to the range.
I'll tell you what.. My Columbia's are like wearing pillows, but they stink my feet up bad. We're talking old bat chit crazy lady, house full of cats and their rotten piss - BAD.
Next year I'm wearing those on our antelope hunt and I'm leaving some socks around your house as mementos..
Gosh how about you just save your valuable time and not post in any thread I start?? Seems simple and would make us both happy.
Think of all the time you could have saved if you had not made 11 (eleven ) posts in the thread about me and Big Stick.
Guys who are having fun with this thread,
Sorry guys I am going to have to say finding the right boots to hunt in for elk is not very hard and finding a decent pack is even easier. This is coming from a guy that loves to try different boots out. I just bought a pair of Zamberlan Sellas and they are absolutely the best things I have ever worn, but I killed my best bull in a good pair of Kenetreks and these wonder boots would not have made a difference in the outcome of the hunt.
The wrong choice in rifle or caliber would have made a huge difference.
Not a bull but Kenetreks and Eberlestock pack. Seems simple enough.
One day this Summer the AC konked in a tractor. Around 93F outside and hotter than hell in the cab all afternoon. I was wearing Meindl hikers and took 'em off quick, feet were on fire. From now on it's cowboy boots in the tractor, they are alot cooler.
Hopefully the crazy horned buck survives until next season, we will go after him!
The wrong choice in rifle or caliber would have made a huge difference.
You've lost me.
I'll stick with what I've learned, from hunters who I respect immensely from their previous experiences, not from someone who's selling hardware that makes up one of the least parts of the hunt.
I wonder how many weeks it would take to blister up out there?
(grin)
Just add trees, for blowdown to deal with, and so that you can't glass for chit... constant rain for slipperyness and general discomfort due to raingear & hiking... ... and less critters... and you got the Oregon Coast Range right there!
Trying to find a Ukiah unit pic to post, that's eastern Oregon. More like the pic above but still WAY more trees.
Personally, for the conditions I've hunted elk in, a .338WM is what I'd argue is "best". In a properly-fit rifle it's quite shootable; with the excellent 225-Accubond it has ballistics rivalling anything short of niche cartridges shooting niche bullets, it is a bona-fide 600+ yard cartridge, and I don't think a man Jack amongst us could make a credible case for lack of killin' power. And it perks fine from barrels as short as 22".
Tom put it very well the other day: if a 45/70 and a 7mm mag hooked up and had a baby- it'd be the .338 Win mag!
So if we asked, what's "best" for 90-something percent of shots taken on elk by 90-something percent of hunters that's my answer.
I do realize not everyone has a concrete block for brains and that my recoil tolerance is, it appears, on the high side. But I still think with a bit of work on the rifle and/or shooter, it's very shootable.
If it kicks too hard for someone my next best would something in the 300WSM or 30-06 range.
For a dedicated rifleman willing to put in the effort to become proficient at long range, and carry a rifle set up for that (which often means it's a compromise in other areas- weight, glass, bullet chosen, etc) then I don't know. Big 7's, 30's, 33's seem to rule the day there. Or of course .264's.
I'm hardly the smokiest oyster in the tin when it comes to elk huntin but that's how I see it.
I drew the tag here in Wyoming and killed the ram 24.2 miles from where I sit now. Everything was DIY, mules, tack, scouting, ect. Wish I could get a tag every year as it was a whole lot of fun.
And with all of those things mentioned the RIFLE and/or CALIBER was the most important thing? That must have been a hell of a long shot to outweigh the aforementioned.
Congrats on a GREAT animal. I'd give almost anything to take a Bighorn here in Idaho...but alas the tag draws have not favored me.
Your hypothetical reminds me of Lee24 and his Grand Canyon BS. I left you openings to ask about the truth without being an azz. The hunters on this site want to know the reality of whatever is being discussed, not some 'looking out the plate glass window' during lunch imaginings. We could have had a decent discussion on hunting the rez, Oh well.
Whatever I've commented on your childish repetition posts still stand. Sorry you didn't enjoy my distractionary humor with other members, usually eases the tension.
I'm not pissed, I'm a good friend to have, I'll call it straight up everytime, don't BS me.
You made 11 (eleven) posts in a thread designed to keep a stupid argument between Stick and me alive. I cannot speak for him but I am not hear for your amusement and don�t particularly like that kind of thread being kept alive by guys like you.
Go find your fun somewhere else.
Want to have a decent discussion about the �Rez� then start a post about the �Rez�.
Want to voice your opinion on what is the best elk cartridge in the World, this is the time.
Iddave,
The gear was almost exactly the same for the bull but the shot was 1102 yds on the last day of the hunt. The mules, tack, boots, ect got me there but without the range it was just a tough ride, fun but tough.
Jeff,
North Face nylon pants. Really tough and dry all most immediately but fire embers will burn through so fast it will freak you out.
Jesus H. Christ I can't believe people can reliably hit a sheep size target at 1,100 yards! I have enough trouble ringing an 8 inch gong at 500 yards....from a freaking bench. Hell, I was pleased to have hit my bull 4 out 5 five shots in the lungs this year at 470 yards.
That sort of shot isn't in this cat's bag of tricks, but hats off to those of you that can do it.
You chase Stick around everyone else's posts, F'n them up and have the balls to tell me I shouldn't discuss the topic of Rez hunting on yours that you started about rez hunting.
Your context is full of BS, all to promote your .264. I don't post chit about Wy hunting, if I did I'd expect to be called on it.
Funny thing on the fire, there's always someone that 'knows' the subject of what you bring up... best to know yourself before making a fool of yourself.
Here's a rez bull, he was dead a week when I found it during the archery raghorn hunt, after the trophy hunt. Fantasic fronts and good mains but a little weak on the 3/4/5, he rough taped 372. Maybe he was shot at 1000 yds with a .264 because his fronts were noticeable but not so much the rest. I guess he wasn't so much a 'once in a lifetime' after ground shrinkage, so another was found.
11 (eleven ) posts trying to keep a fight going. Stop and think about that for a moment.
Stick and I had a silly dust up but it was really just us until guys like you tried your damndest to keep it going.
The context of my post is actually very good. Some where there is the best elk cartridge in the world and killing a cow elk on the White doesn�t exactly qualify you to make an educated opinion.
You understand this but why not just make a guess. It is all in fun any way there will not be a test later.
Actually I do try and shoot does at longer range. This is the next step in being able to make long shots on demand.
Would you try a shot at a trophy animal under the pressure that you have not tried when there was no pressure??
If you want the ability to handle high pressure shots on big animals at distance you have to be willing to do the practice necessary. After the range time and varmints the next step is antlerless tags that allow you to quit if things are not working.
Don�t expect to play with the big boys if you will not put in the effort.
Best elk cartridge in the world is probably the one you're shooting when you fill your tag.. For years if there was a better elk cartridge than the 243 you couldn't proove it by me.. Then I started messing with the "adequate" cartridges and they work but not enough better to get excited about. These days I've got two rifles that are in contention for the best elk gun in the world, a Win 95 in 405 winchester and a 45 2.3 sharps pushing a 500+ gr paper patched bullet of original sharps style , with 80 grs of goex 1f.. 22magnum pistol in the back of the head is fairly spectacular in the timber, OR so I've heard...
Well heck John, I'll add my 2 cents for what it's worth. I'm going to take a stab and quess more elk are hunted with a 30-06 every yr than most any other caliber, And a lot are brought down with one too. But I quess My vote will have to lean toward the 300 WBY mag with a 180 gr pill. I sure enjoy shooting my 6.5 or 308 better on the range but I like the energy the 300 wby gives me when I need it.
I've played this game before and it is fun... So I'm supposed to put up my resume as you dodge all the BS you stated earlier about how demanding a rez hunt would be, best be prepared for worst case scenario, The 'Hick', hey, do you use terms like 'Toad' or 'Goat' on your shows, I think I seen you once. Anyway, the 'Hick' is once in a life time... At 6 to 8,000 plus small trophy fee depending on size? it's a ranch hunt in a high fence, big area for sure, but they know the animal you will kill and can take you to bow range.
I can think of a few places that a 50cal would be ideal and fun with a little practice and running ballistics s/w. For effective elk hunting, I can think of MORE hunting that a stock factory bolt rifle in about 30 calibers, with nothing more than [bleep] factory ammo and a 4X scope would be better.. Just sayin'
John how's feel to be the new gun in town that everyone has to prove there faster than you. It must be something about man hood. There is also alot of horn envy in the hunting world. That said I have to vote for the 8MM Mag. it has it all--but a following.
I just built a 270WSM necked down to 6.5 on a MT. 99 action, for some long range shooting--- I don't care for recoil myself so I know what your saying. But this is a once in a life time hunt and it has to be the best Large Elk round at long range.
Greenhorn-Yup, Herb is still making them. I got mine used off TradGang. If you don't want to wait for a custom, you might look at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear's website, they usually have one or two on the rack.
Since the OP was asking about cartridges, if the Outfitter insisted on a rifle, I suppose I'd take my 9.3x62.
What single rifle cartridge has topped every survey and poll taken from elk hunters since way back in the 30s? Also the same cartridge that has been the single highest ammunition seller for use in hunting elk for all those decades. I seem to recall that all the data recorded has been consistent all these many decades for this overwhelming number one choice all the way up to the most recent poll taken:
Why do forums seem to contain such a concentration of idiots?
John, to answer your question, of the guns I now own, I'd take my 7STW with 160gr Accubonds.
I see no problem in carrying a gun that is capable of killing animals at 1000 yards--as long as the guy carrying it isn't under the assumption that good shooting skills can make up for poor hunting skills.
A good hunter will kill more and bigger bulls than a good shooter.
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
Did you say blisters??
Luckily this pic wasn't taken after a hunt, but I did nearly repeat the condition about 2 weeks later trying to help a buddy on a hunt. I will say this, these blisters lamed me up enough that it wouldn't have mattered what rifle I was carrying as I wasn't going too far too fast for awhile...
I thought we all agreed about that particular picture being officially banned from the campfire...(grin)
I was hoping it was illustrative... Those boots worked for over a year and then one day they didn't. No more Zamberlans for me!
To answer the OP, I'd pick a 338 Win Mag shooting 210gr Partitions. Why? Because that's all I have right now and it's never not worked yet.
................Which reminds me. I don`t have a nickname yet for my 338-378 Wby Accumark.
Have a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier which is dubbed,,,,,,,"mighty mouse" Got a 375 Ruger Alaskan which is dubbed,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Sarah"
Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark? _________________________ 300 WSM..338-378 Wby..375 Ruger
"WRATH of GOD" I have seen the 338-378 Wby called this on some Sniper Web Sites. AMRA
If I ever got to leave Alabama and go West ANYWHERE to hunt Elk I would go with my Weatherby Mark V stainless 270 WBY with a factory 130 gr. TSX @ 3400 + fps. AMRA
another vote for .340 wby... 210 noslers any angle if i can determine with the naked eye its a trophy bull, its in range ( ok, maybe a stretch there ! )
I have found out over the years, that anything in the class of caliber between the 30-06 and .338 Win mag will get the job done without strain if you have the proper bullet and can hit the vital zone.
Now I have friend that hunts everything with his Sharps 45/110 rifle. He never complains about totting that hunk of steel up and down those mountain benchs. I believe it weighs in at 13 pounds plus, give or take a 1/2 pound for ammo.
................Which reminds me. I don`t have a nickname yet for my 338-378 Wby Accumark.
Have a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier which is dubbed,,,,,,,"mighty mouse" Got a 375 Ruger Alaskan which is dubbed,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Sarah"
Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark? _________________________ 300 WSM..338-378 Wby..375 Ruger
"WRATH of GOD" I have seen the 338-378 Wby called this on some Sniper Web Sites. AMRA
................Which reminds me. I don`t have a nickname yet for my 338-378 Wby Accumark.
Have a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier which is dubbed,,,,,,,"mighty mouse" Got a 375 Ruger Alaskan which is dubbed,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Sarah"
Other than the obvious and more common nicknames such as,,,,the beast, the hammer, hammer of Thor, monster, etc, what in heck do you nickname a 338-378 Accumark? _________________________ 300 WSM..338-378 Wby..375 Ruger
"WRATH of GOD" I have seen the 338-378 Wby called this on some Sniper Web Sites. AMRA
I'd be thinking closer to the something like "Little Jumk" or "Tiny" or "Cialis"...
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
The absolute best elk rig in the world may not be the best rig for any particular hunt, it just works well for the most hunts. Even that is going to vary by hunter, by style, by terrain, by ... attitude.
I'm going to say a sporter weight rifle in anything from a .270 up to .338 win mag with premium bullets with a .270 or higher sectional density, .450 or higher BC, and muzzle velocity from 2800 fps or higher. Brand of rifle doesn't matter that much, whatever the hunter likes. What matters is that specific rifle has to be accurate, reliable, not have point of impact shift if the stock gets wet, cold, etc. Top it off with a good scope in the 2.5-8X to 3.5-10X range.
Go kill [bleep].
If your type of hunting suggests you need a specialty rifle for either long range or heavy cover, you need two guns, that specialty rifle and either a rifle specializing in the other or a general purpose rifle as I described above, because the specialty rifle you choose is going to suck pretty bad the day you have to apply it to the other specialty where it is anti-optimized.
If I had to pick just one myself, I guess my favorite is a Rem 700 in .338 win mag loaded with 225 grain accubonds topped off with a Leupold 2.5-8X with a B&C crosshair.
For the hunt you describe, though, I'd do something else. Probably something that qualifies as goofy. Like maybe a Kimber Montana in .257 Roberts, a muzzleloader, or maybe a revolver. Just because. If you always color between the lines, all you ever get is the picture on the box. It's already been done, so why bother?
My old custom 28" brl 338-378 wby w/ 225 TTSX's @3350 will get it done from any angle. With a good rest and not alot of wind I would feel comfortable out to 800 yds. on a trophy bull. Gunner
Okay John...Of the Hunting rifles I own and shoot game with from the .270 Win(two of them)to the mighty 375 H&H Mag...My choice for Idaho hunting is the .300 Win Mag.
The .264 Win Mag is a fine caliber.One of my good friends in Riggins Idaho takes an Elk most years off the Hells Canyon Breaks(7-Devils area) with it although,I don't see much difference in immediate effect than a 270 Win,but both are excellent calibers if the nut behind the scope does his part.
John, if you hit 'em just right with the leggy 340 B, there's a 2" backstrap steak just searing in a pan as you walk up; the rest is all packaged. All you need is your fork, knife, a Pinot, some home made bread, and a good cigar.
If we are riding a 9.5 lb 700 7 mag w/Berger 168s. If we are hiking a 8 lb 300 win mag w/180 accubombs this as been a great combo for me, and you always need a backup anyway. Ho Ho Ho
Best elk cartridge in the world is the one you have in your hands when you find a good bull. If everyone spent as much time learning what is needed to get that done as they do worrying about what round to use, there would be a lot more bulls killed. Pretty much anything within reason will work if you do your part. I'd rather hear from some of the guys that kill big bulls every year regarding methods, than listen to a bunch of guys postulate about what I should shoot it with.
Anyone vote for the 378 Weatherby with a 250 gr Barnes X or maybe a 260 Accubond? Have use the X's for years. At 3250ish out the barrel it can reach out and share the love. A truly heavy hitter in a rifle that is still in the single digit weight range.
Anyone vote for the 378 Weatherby with a 250 gr Barnes X or maybe a 260 Accubond? Have use the X's for years. At 3250ish out the barrel it can reach out and share the love. A truly heavy hitter in a rifle that is still in the single digit weight range.
That's nice bull but I'm not sure what a 378 WBY does to the animal that a lighter kicking, lighter rifle chambered for something like the 30-06 wouldn't have done as well..
Best elk cartridge in the world is the one you have in your hands when you find a good bull. If everyone spent as much time learning what is needed to get that done as they do worrying about what round to use, there would be a lot more bulls killed. Pretty much anything within reason will work if you do your part. I'd rather hear from some of the guys that kill big bulls every year regarding methods, than listen to a bunch of guys postulate about what I should shoot it with.
i have numerous "suitable" choices but usually rely on only 2 for elk. If lots of walking in the timber is in order i use my Montana .300WSM and 150 gr NP's, if the terrain is open i use my .338RUM shooting the 210 tsx. Cant say as how the horsepower of the .338RUM is needed but its accurate enough, light enough and i shoot it well and animals just plain hate it. That and i wanted it so i bought it.
I mentioned it in another thread, but the most impressive reaction i have every seen on elk was a buddies preteen daughter hammering a nice bull in the shoulder with a plain jane Rem 700 in .243 and an 85 gr TSX. IIRC the shot was broadside at about 180 yds, she put the bullet square into the shoulder and the bull just flat dropped. That little TSX took out both shoulders and that bulls soul and is still going for all i know. bull never even twitched
Anyone vote for the 378 Weatherby with a 250 gr Barnes X or maybe a 260 Accubond? Have use the X's for years. At 3250ish out the barrel it can reach out and share the love. A truly heavy hitter in a rifle that is still in the single digit weight range.
That's nice bull but I'm not sure what a 378 WBY does to the animal that a lighter kicking, lighter rifle chambered for something like the 30-06 wouldn't have done as well..
Makes'm "deaderer"! You are 100% right Brad! The old 06' is just like vanilla ice cream, sometimes it doesn't get the love it deserves, everyone always wants rocky road or some new fancy flavor. I still like vanilla, but with sprinkles... my new flavor that seems really fun is the 338-06 in one of the Ultralight Mark V's. Got two of them, one for each of my daughters.
The same Rifle/bullet combo for a spike DIY or "trophy" once in a lifetime rez hunt or premium draw tag. Pre 64 Mod 70 Leupold 2.5-8 338 WM 250 gr TSX (for me) 300 yards and in.
Well, with all of the above being completely true,for those waffling on the fence about "enough" elk rifle,a 378 surely removes all doubt....
To be honest, and more power () to 'em, but the .378 "S&A" (note Bob's name for it) almost gives me a case of the hives contemplating both the shooting and carrying it. I'll draw the line at its littler brother, the .340, but will more likely reach for an '06 or a 284. Now if I have a gun-bearer and a Lead Sled...
Goodnews:WOW! I look at some of this hardware on here and am just blown away!
I thought I was high tech because my last bull was killed with an anemic 7 Rem Mag and a 160 partition,with a 2.5-8 Leupold.
Dats 21st century,right??!!
Or,(and I keep forgeting to get pics of this stuff)my rancher buddy, Bill, who calls last month and tells me he killed (another)310-320 6x6 with a 270 Remington Mountain rifle in a 25 year old Brown Precision stock and an equally old 4X Leupold,and loaded with 130 Sierra's....
...we don't know how many bull elk that rifle has killed anymore.....have sorta lost count but the number is likely up around 25-30...why I laugh when folks say the 270 Win(aka,280 Remington,284 Winchester)are chump change elk cartridges....
I'd go with a 300 RUM stoked with 200 gr Accubonds topped with a reliable scope with turrets. I can only practice to 600 yards here so that would be my limit. For any shot over 200 yds the critter would need to be standing still (and only a slow walk under 200). A steady rest, a good rangefinder and little to no crossing wind would mean a bullet through the lungs almost every time.
I've used most of them from 243 Win. to & including 375 H&H. Have just about settled on the 35 Whelen w/250 Partition's as my go to gun, an older vx-II 2-7 for optics. In the timber or the open I've never felt disadvantaged!!
300 RUM, in a Rem 700 with a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 and Nosler 180 Partitions. Worked excellent this year and expect that's the combo that will be used for the future. Backup is a 7 STW with 160 Partitions.
Ummmmmmmm you don't say hunters! Well now, I have tried the .270 Winchester with 160 grn bullets, 30-06 using 180's, 7mm Rem. mag using 160 & 175 bullets, .300 Win mag using 180 & 200 grn bullets, 35-Whelen using 250grn bullets, .338 Win mag using 210, 225 and 250 grainers. My wildcat .338/.300-Ultra mag 250grn bullets. My .375-Wby using 270 grn bullets. This over a 48 year span of hunting elk in the high country. Now most of all these caliber rifles, worked out just fine. Some were a little light on yardage and some just got to heavy to tote up those mountain benches.
However, nowdays this old man has figured things out a little better and I put together a nice lightweight rifle that will put 3 into a clover leaf fro the bench at 100yds. The rifle is a .338/06 with pencil weight barrel, light weight stock with a 2 x 7 Leupold on top the barrel, using 210 grain Nosler Partitions. Trust me it works like a magic wound gents!
Tonk, I think that 338-06 is a "new" favorite for me too! Loaded some 210 Scirocco's. The rifle is light and handy and still has some umff. Happy hunting, Casey
Dober, When I was in high school we had to do a history project on someone we admired. I picked Elmer Keith. I had read "Hell I was there" when I was 10 or 11 years old and I was ruined for life. A 7mm is barely big enough for coyotes! The first gun I ever bought, when I turned 12 was a Smith Model 29-2 with 8 3/8 tube on it. I changed sprinkler pipes for two summers to save up enough money. I got some funny looks from people on the river when I packed it on my dailey fishing excursions. I had one game warden ask me, "Does your father know you have his gun?" LOL I still bring that book out now and then to read some of the stories. Happy hunting, Casey
Dober, When I was in high school we had to do a history project on someone we admired. I picked Elmer Keith. I had read "Hell I was there" when I was 10 or 11 years old and I was ruined for life. A 7mm is barely big enough for coyotes!
The 7mm is suitable for such game as a large moth or grasshopper, and possibly on more dangerous game such as bumble bees and wasps, providing the shooter is absolutely certain a clean head shot can be made.
I would take my M70 300 win with 200 NPs and M8 6x. And besides the Rez. and Lottery part it's not really a hypothetical question. Because I've carried this rifle on some nice elk hunts and killed elk. But my answer would be the same for probably 95% of any hunts you'd care to ask me about.
I would take one of my long range 338's capable of killing any elk from point blank to as far as I can hit one. Right now I am very consistent on elk silhouettes at 1500 yards.
I've been hunting with the 378 Weatherby for over 20 years and see no reason to change for a dream elk hunt on one of the southwestern reservations. Actually, I'd been thinking lately that is exactly the hunt I should be planning next. Of the currenty 378's I own it would be tricky to choose between the Mark V Safari and a stainless Custom that I have, both shooting the 270 grain Barnes TSX and with either I'd be confident with any decent shot opportunity to 400 yards or so. Beyond that, I'm sneaking closer.
Probably every cartridge mentioned will or has killed its share of Elk.
?is which would I choose? I'm not qualified to say which is the BEST elk cartridge, since I have not had the privilege to hunt them YET.
I have larger and smaller calibers but I choose M 70 300 WM loaded with 180 Nos. pt. @ 3100+ fps. I would feel comfortable at any REASONABLE angle up to 500 yds.
My 8Mag is a little heavy. My 300 is ALMOST as light as Tikka T3 Light SS 270 (which I love).
NO DOUBTS as to rifle,caliber, bullet capabilities.
The 375 H&H with 260 Partitions. Topped with VXIII 2.5 x 8 as a compromise between the 25 yard azz shot and the 500 yard, next ridge stuff, it works good. Been using one for about 45 years now and it still shoots < 1 1/2 MOA with 260s and 4831, CCI 250.
I would use one of my Ultramags. Either the 7 ultramag with 150 TSX's, 300 ultrmag with 180 TSX or my 338 ultramag with the 210 TSX. Or even a 375 ultramag that I wanting to buy.
One thing is positive in my eyes and that is using one of those Ultra mags if you can shoot it well down range. The.300 Ultra with a 180 grain premium bullet going 32 or 3300fps and a good dose of RL-25 is certainly a force to reckon with, I sure do like those Accubond bullets too.
However, if the range is short as in 300 yards in, I would rather have my .338 Win mag model 70 pure and simple like. I know the rifle and it just feels darn great in my hands. I also like those holes to be a little bigger if possible, more bloods gets dropped.
.700 nitro, hands down best choice- and get real close.
Honestly though, get something you can shoot well, a huge magnum ain't gonna help if you can't shoot it well. They'll all kill elk just fine within reason. If you can shoot a RUM as well as anything, have at it.
AS one gets older, the best Elk/deer/moose/whatever cartridge in the world becomes the one that can fit in a lightweight, easy to carry, rifle. Such a rifle allows you "stay in the game", thereby seeing more county, and thereby possibly seeing more game. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have enough juice to get the job done when and if you do see game, and to do so at a reasonable distance.
So, for me, as I get damn old, I don't care so much about the caliber as the weight, and I currently think the best elk/whatever rifle is the Kimber Montana in .325 WSM. Extremely light weight, and shoots a 200 grain Nosler partition with enough authority to be confident out to maybe 350 yards or more.
This tread got a little off track, I am with the muzzle break fellows if it reduces recoil as stated about by Tonk by 50% why not use it. Because a handful of folks on here are say flinching and afraid of the recoil when it comes right down to it a 300 rum with break kicks no more possible even less than a 30-06 without one so with that said I'd take the 300 w/break. And on the bullet type for penatration it still has to get to the 500-600 yrds. mark with enought energy, if you shoot a 270 then why cant you shoot a 330 well?
.700 nitro, hands down best choice- and get real close.
You must have some of those 'modern Elk' that have learned how to grow Kevlar plating...
Probably more Elk (and other large big game) have been taken with the .270/.30-06 class cartridges than everything else combined.
Good shot placement at reasonable ranges and using quality controlled expansion bullets are the most important factors.
Over the years I've owned rifles that used a wide range of cartridges, but now I only use 2 rifles for everything from large varmints through large critters that might want to bite me; a Win M70 .30-06 and a Win M70 .375 H&H.
Guess I just like to keep things simple and if I can't get the job done with either my 30-06 or 375 H&H I won't be able to get it done with any other cartridge.
For Elk I would probably use my 375 H&H just because I enjoy shooting it so much, but I wouldn't feel one bit 'under gunned' using my 30-06 loaded with 180gr Partitions.
Only shot 4 so far. 2 with the 300 Win Mag and 180 gr NP's and 2 with the 35 Whelen and 225 gr NP's ,all died. only difference I can see was the Whelen ruined less meat and that shines for me. Magnum Man
Doesn't really matter, give me any gun thats shoots straight and is legal to hunt elk with and I will go kill and elk with it. Iron sights or scope. It counts where you hit them rather than what you hit them with. Become a better hunter and you don't haveto take those long pokes at them either.
One question: Do we as hunter ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hit them where we want to? Every single time we pull the trigger?
No.....do you believe that your 300 RUM will help you get that elk if you gut shoot him? Or hit him in that void above the lungs and below the spine for example? Just curious.....
Rancho I already put you in your place once...And I never said gut shot I asked and was not answered "One question: Do we as hunter ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hit them where we want to? Every single time we pull the trigger?" I think it is MY OPINION AND ONLY MY OPINION that a larger caliber gun shooting a high quality bullet will have a better effect on a large game animal if the hunter makes a error and smacks im square in the front shoulder or ever POSSIBLY the center of a hind leg. As for a gut shot no I don't think there are any advantages with that shot because there is nothing there to create server crippling damage such as organs,a large amount of enery and shock which might rupture and heavily damage organs, or bones being broken need to escape. Im also not condoning hunters taking poor shots but...[bleep] happen in the field with me this year I killed my elk I took my time, range found it, made the clicks on my scope, beared down and sent it, in the picture below was not where I intended to hit it got the job done but my point is we as hunter don't ALWAYS hit our exact target. And in SOME cases that extra lead,power,energy MIGHT help. MY OPINION ONLY. Not to mention that was the entry hole the one on the other side is 2" at 592 yrds. thats power and energy at work.
I personally like the Mag Na Port idea, as it does NOT take away from the beauty of the rifle and does in fact Stop 70% of that muzzle jump.
I took the muzzle brake off my only braked rifle! It is a .470-Capstick with a 26 inch barrel. Now that muzzle brake extends it another 3 friggin inches. It was put on to work up shootable loads in the first place.
So now I have the loads and the powder I use (IMR-4320) I am taking it down to 22 inches for better handling in the bush. It will also be Mag Na Ported to keep that muzzle down for a fast second shot. I also wear a PAST RECOIL PAD Gents!!! It works like a magic wond absorbing recoil.
Start shooting them at 200-300 yards or less instead of almost 600 yards and you might put more bullets where they are suppose to go and those few times that you don't put the bullet where it should go will become less
The question was not answered so answer it. Do you hit where you aim EVERY EVERY EVERY time at your limited 200 yards ? Thats why I love this site awhole lots of blah blah blah but knowbody will answer a simple question ,I'll start no I don't always hit the where I am aiming from time to time at any yardage. And Saddle I shoot a big gun all year long I'm not afraid to shoot out passed 200 yrds when I practice at it. If it will make you feel better next time I'll ask Mr. Elk if you would come alittle close or maybe if he would like to go to lunch.
Start shooting them at 200-300 yards or less instead of almost 600 yards and you might put more bullets where they are suppose to go and those few times that you don't put the bullet where it should go will become less
The question was not answered so answer it. Do you hit where you aim EVERY EVERY EVERY time at your limited 200 yards ? Thats why I love this site awhole lots of blah blah blah but knowbody will answer a simple question ,I'll start no I don't always hit the where I am aiming from time to time at any yardage. And Saddle I shoot a big gun all year long I'm not afraid to shoot out passed 200 yrds when I practice at it. If it will make you feel better next time I'll ask Mr. Elk if you would come alittle close or maybe if he would like to go to lunch.
I'll answer your question: No nobody that hunts and shoots a lot, hits exactly where they mean to every time and YES a more pwerful cartridge can help enormously if your shot is not placed perfectly and further, the more "powerful" cartridges for elk hunting (like the 338's) allow you to take less than perfect shots and still be lethal. I've killed some very good 6X6, 6X7 and 7X7 bulls and most of those bulls were not holding still, or standing broadside in an open meadow. I purposely shot a few of them in the guts, or I was not going to get any shot at all and I recovered all of them easily since I was using 340 WBY's and 338 Win. Mags. on all of the really big bulls I've killed. Old bulls don't stand around in the open very much and if you want to kill big bulls, you need a cartridge that will allow you to take any crapy shot that the older bull may give you, or be prepared to pass on the crapy shots and end up settling for younger bulls if you use smaller cartridges.
One more thing: Killing a 5x5 raghorn or a cow is nothing like killing an older (8 yrs and older) bull. Those old bulls are MUCH tougher than the yougsters and the cows and unless you've actually killed a number of older bulls, you may not believe that.
I did.(592) And for your info Rancho I screwed up the screen name myself it is being corrected and by the way junior I'm still waiting for them pictures did you print mine out to pass around the campfire circle jeck meeting ? Now thats funny. Or is youe camera broke?
Let's see, you claimed you've been on five elk hunts, but actually it was one. You've claimed to presently live in Alaska and Montana, but in reality, it's Finleyville, Pa..
Are you really a miner? That isn't what your Linkedin profile says..
You don't seem to be the most truthful individual, so if people wonder exactly how you got those mounts on the wall, it would only be natural..
Rancho just go up a notch or two and read Sundle post. And post the pictures already because ALL THE PEOPLE WATCHING THIS THREAD NOW KNOWS YOU ARE FULL OF CHIT BIG ELK KILLER WITH NO PICTURES LOAO
Ranch- Did you read what Sundle wrote or are you to busy posting them pictures? See Sundle Rancho is pi ssed off at me because I made the same statement that you did so he said I never killed this or that so I sent him pictures of the 15 140"+ bucks, bears, elk, antalope, ducks, fox, coyotes etc. and we as readers are yet to see his skills. It all started over 270 and 30-06 see we can't have an opinion where not part of the group that kills 10 cows and tell us how great a elk hunter they are. But see I didn't kill all them big bucks from be stupid I know better.
Rancho- Remeber this the next time you interfer in another one of my threads, don't come without pictures and there better be bone on the head. You just don't get it.
Sundles- If you where here right now I would kiss you for sure!!!! Finally someone with a backbone who will say what they truly believe.
I long ago lost count of how many bull elk I've killed, but it is many dozen and most years/locations I was holding out for big bulls, although as of late I've shot my share of rag horns. Those bigger older bulls dont often give you a perfect shot if they give you any shot at all. So, not only have I intentionally gut shot my share of big bulls, but I've Texas heart shot a few too. One of my biggest (which I didnt have heasured till four years after I shot him) is a 7X7 that I shot in Idaho's Middle Fork (unit 27) wilderness, and was the only one of the huge bulls I've shot that I shot with a broadside/double lung shot. He scored a gross of 383. All the other bigger bulls I've killed as I can recall, were tough, less than perfect shots that I probably could not have pulled off with a lesser cartridge as I would have feared losing the animal........So, if I am going to hunt for true trophies and be able to take the poor shots older bulls sometimes give, I'll keep using the 338 WIn. Mag. ad the 340 WBY or I'll simply pass on those bad angle and otherwise shots....
This is an interesting thread. A lot of huge magnums mentioned here, and also a lot of these posts talking about a max range of maybe 400 yards with those magnums. Hell boys, I can kill elk with my 270 past 400 yards! Why shoot a fire breathing magnum if you can't shoot it well enough to get the range advantage out of it? The very best elk cartridge in the world is quite simply the 7mm Remmy Mag. Why? Because it has all the power needed on any shot most hunters are ever going to take, and for those of us that learn and then practice enough for those 6 and 700 yard shots, it still does the job nicely. AND, it won't kick your pants off so most guys can actually learn to shoot it well... AND this is MY post so I can pick which ever one I want!
This is an interesting thread. A lot of huge magnums mentioned here, and also a lot of these posts talking about a max range of maybe 400 yards with those magnums. Hell boys, I can kill elk with my 270 past 400 yards! Why shoot a fire breathing magnum if you can't shoot it well enough to get the range advantage out of it? The very best elk cartridge in the world is quite simply the 7mm Remmy Mag. Why? Because it has all the power needed on any shot most hunters are ever going to take, and for those of us that learn and then practice enough for those 6 and 700 yard shots, it still does the job nicely. AND, it won't kick your pants off so most guys can actually learn to shoot it well... AND this is MY post so I can pick which ever one I want!
Funny post and true... well except the part about the 7 Mag
Good to see you back on the 'puter, sundles. Hope you've got things all lined out now.
Thanks. Things have been pretty mellow for a couple years now. Got married about 20 months ago to a little girl who was raised on a large cattle ranch in central MT. She was raised on a horse and a dirt bike and likes to get dirty and hike/camp in the mountains, so we do well together. Business is good (thankyou Obama)too. I've had the time and energy to get back in the moutnains a lot and to be shooting a lot too.
JWP475.Not adderssing you particularly,just saying close the distance and those less than optimum shots will become less. I don't care if it is a elk calf or a 8x8 bull.If the shot isn't there,you don't take it.
BTW, I killed a 7x8, 12 yr old+ bull just last year.One shot,.06, 180 gr Game Kings in a area almost devoid of trees. Except for a few small aspen grooves. Shot it at about 60 yards. Big bulls are no more harder to kill than young elk and I havekilled my share.. You can argue this BS till the cows come home, but it has been proven time and time gain,it's not what you hit them with, it is where. These argumnets are senseless.
Cobrad: Ya know....I wonder....just thinking out loud so as not to stir the masses,of course....but
If the 7 mag is such a punk elk cartridge,and the 300's and 338's are so great....then why have I seen several elk shot with all three collapse when they were well hit with any of them,and yet run off when not properly hit?
Like the 500 yard bull that hit the turf so fast from a Big 7 that you could hear the "thud",......or my last one that collapsed to a shoulder shot from the same bullet through the shoulders,sent cascading down the mountain in a blur of flailing legs and twisting antlers?(that one is on video)...
.....and seen them run off when poorly hit with either.....and not just elk,but little old black bear smacked a bit too far back from a 340 Roy and 210's,that gave a disagreeable chase before recovery....I might add there was not much for blood....
Or the elk that started to depart after a long angling shot from the 340,and required a second to "fini"....
Or the 450 yard 6x6 that collapsed at rifle crack from a 180 Partition and 300 win mag,to the shoulders,never to rise again.....
In sharp contrast to the bull that continued to run after a 200 gr Partition angled from the last rib to the offside shoulder from 300 Weatherby? He needed a second to the chest to finish.
Or the 350 yard bull hit too far back with a 30/06 and 150 gr WW PP,stood on wobbly legs and got a second through he chest,and collapse at the shot...
How about the BC bull last year,(anectdotal)knocked my friend,thrashing around at 400 yards, with a 300 RUM and 180 TBBC,that scrambled to his feet and dissapeared.....never to be found.
.....I could continue,but won't.
Please note that these are all mature bulls;no spikes or raghorns here...
Point is....that in every instance,regardless of caliber,if the bullets were properly placed,there was no difference that I could tell. And if the bullets landed a bit off course,the bulls were as firmly wounded with the 338's as with the 30's and the 7 mags...
And while on the subject of elk bullets, I have pulled 30 caliber and 7mm Bitterroots from the off side of bull elk that had greater frontal area and more retained weight,than many 338 bullets of lesser construction,widely acclaimed as elk bullets....
And why have I had world-traveled hunters,guys in a postition to know,tell me that a 175 Partition driven to 3000 fps,kills like a 300 Weatherby?(I have never used the 175 NPT myself).
I could go on but my point is that,after watching and doing all this,am I wrong in concluding that well constructed bullets stuck in the right place are what gives quick kills on elk? And that even big bullets of good construction,stuck in the wrong place,will have you chasing wounded elk over the countryside?
I would love to have this explained to me in a way I can understand,and see with my own eyes....can anyone here help me?
If the 7 mag is such a punk elk cartridge,and the 300's and 338's are so great....then why have I seen several elk shot with all three collapse when they were well hit with any of them,and yet run off when not properly hit?
I think you could say the same thing about the 270 or 308 Win...
+2...with Rancho...the 270 can't kill chit...while it is in the gun safe...BUT...load it with 130 Partitions and take it into the game fields...and everything from deer to moose falls dead with well placed shots...including the elk...which some feel bullets of less than 30 caliber seem to bounce off of..
Ain't this nice? Spirited discussion without telling the next guy he's wrong, can't, shouldn't ... And the best part is we appear to be in agreement that I AM RIGHT!!! HAIL THE 7MM, KING OF THE ELK CARTRIDGES!! BobinNH I couldn't say it better. My experiences and observations are just as you described. In over 30 years of hunting and guiding hunters in Colorado, I've seen this play out every year. Magnums in general are great and awesome tools... for the man that can truly master the recoil and shoot it well enough to use the extra range afforded. This is no small task. IMLTHO (less than humble opinion) most don't commit them selves to learning to shoot well enough to wring out all the performance the "standards" are capable of, much less the added task of mastering prodigious recoil to extend the range at which large amounts of energy and momentum can be delivered. That, IMLTHO, is what magnums really have to offer, extended range. The standards offer all the punch necessary to reliably kill elk to somewhere around 300 yards (actually a good bit beyond IMLTHO but let's not take the uninitiated there again) with proper shot placement, just as the magnums will wound animals at any range with poorly placed shots. I will say this though, on marginal shots, slightly marginal not I shot him in the belly marginal, the fast magnums may have some advantage depending on the bullet used. If one is using a frangible bullet, a cup and core or maybe a VLD or Nosler Partition with its' cup and core front end, that produces a tremendous wound this may, possibly, cause enough tissue damage and hemorrage to cause an animal to run a little less far so you might have a little better chance of finding him, if tracking conditions are right, and you are a good enough tracker, if... It's kind of like the thinking behind a varmint gun, blow hell out of them. My old '06 shooting 180 grain cup and cores did this about as well as a magnum within a certain range. Remember my comments about range? But wait, those bullets frequently don't penetrate as well as a premium. My experience indicates deep penetration is a desirable trait in an elk bullet. The Nosler Partition gives a pretty good compromise of both, but I have not found them to be as accurate as most other bullets I've used, though even that is no real argument at real hunting ranges. Isn't a 3 MOA rifle adequate out to 300 yards? The thing I don't like about Partitions, and all cup and core bullets, is that they tend not to penetrate adequately on bone, and the tear up too much meat! I want to eat this beast when I'm done! The magnums amplify this meat-destroying trait with their increased speed. Eventually I went to premium bullets in my '06 just to preserve meat. I hated to see my hunters show up with magnums and standard bullets for this reason, coupled with the fact that I had more wounded game from magnums than standards for reasons stated above. Whew! All this gun talk is getting me worked up to go hunting! So, where were we... yes, THE KING OF THE ELK CARTRIDGES! This is my choice because it offers all the power one needs to kill elk, it offers magnum ranges, and it is far more shootable, IMLTHO, than a .300 because it recoils less. That said I am currently shooting a .270 because after a 16 year affair I finally got tired of getting kicked around by my magnums, and COOPER, THE KING OF THE SEMI-PRODUCTION ANY ONE CAN OWN ONE FACTORY RIFLES doesn't offer a 7mm Remington Magnum... yet
I've killed 31 elk since 1978. I have used only a couple of rifles. I started with a Remington 700 ADL 30-06, which carries a Leupold M-8 6X scope with Leupold Rings. Recently I bought a T/C Icon Weathershield 30-06 and mounted a Leupold VX-III 3.5 x 10 x 40 on it with Warne rings.
I use factory loads; Federal Premium HIGH ENERGY 180 grain Nosler Partition. I killed the first dozen or so using Sierra Game King 150 grain BTSP, which is scary accurate. I was satisfied until one day it took three shots in the lungs, at 30 yards, to down a cow elk. So I switched to the heavier loads with premium bullets.
For my son, I bought a Winchester M70 featherweight 30-06 and mounted another Leupold M8-6X scope on it
CALIBER SURVEY
A few years ago, I participated in an on-line survey of calibers used by elk hunters. There were over two-hundred respondents. The survey may not have been done very scientifically but the results are still interesting enough to include here.
Twenty-four percent (24%) of elk hunters responding to the survey used the 30-06.
Twenty-two percent (22%) used .300 Win mag.
Nineteen percent (19%) used 7mm Rem mag.
So almost 2/3 of respondents used 30-06, 7mm Mag or .300 mag.
The rest included just about anything that you might expect. The smallest was .243 and the biggest was .375 H&H. Others that appeared more than once included; .270, 30-30, .308, .338 Win mag and many Weatherby calibers (several indicated .340 Wby mag,).
What I got out of the survey results is confirmation that any legal caliber can kill an elk with proper bullet placement but most elk hunters prefer to use middle calibers.
2007-2009 B&C DATA (This survey is for all trophy animals, not just elk)
MISSOULA, Mont.�Although the venerable .30-06 and .270 remain among the favorites, Boone and Crockett Club big-game records show that hunters with a .300 Magnum are taking more North American trophies than any other caliber. Surprisingly, the second-most-popular trophy-taker isn�t a firearm�it�s a bow. Boone and Crockett compiled the data from its records book entries from 2007 through 2009. Here are the most commonly used calibers (Note: Records do not distinguish specific variations, i.e. .300 Win. Mag, .300 WSM, .300 Wby. Mag., .300 Ultra Mag, etc.) across all Boone and Crockett categories over the past three years, along with percentages of trophy entries credited to each:
Wow KC thanks so much for the great information, very interesting read. I guess I am not the leper that I thought I was shooting the 300 bee (at least by B&C standards). After reading so many negative posts a guy starts to develop a complex. Long live the belted mag! If you don't want yours send it to me.
Yes, great info. I am guessing the trophy guys probably represent a serious bunch of hunters who have also learned to shoot well and can use the potential of the magnums. For all my opinions about magnum vs standard etc.etc. I have owned a number of magnums and found the .300's to be powerful and accurate with the ability to reach out with authority well beyond 500 yards. For many years I shot a .300 Jarrett. I was getting 3028 fps with 200 grain bullets and 3/4 MOA accuracy. That was an elk killing machine even at looooong ranges. Personally, I would still choose a 7 mag for the lower recoil. I don't like heavy recoil. I had a brake on the Jarrett and never fired the gun without it. All the elk I ever shot with my 7 mags died just as quickly as with the .300.
Early on I carried 300 Weatherby's and 300 Win Mags, and 338's.The 300's were wicked killers,close or far,if I stuck the bullet in the right spot.
But I got tired of the weight,and the recoil....the mag 7's are a good compromise of recoil, rifle weight,and lethal effect. Good bullets,and again, good placement, are key.....
A few years ago, I participated in an on-line survey of calibers used by elk hunters. There were over two-hundred respondents. The survey may not have been done very scientifically but the results are still interesting enough to include here.
Twenty-four percent (24%) of elk hunters responding to the survey used the 30-06.
Twenty-two percent (22%) used .300 Win mag.
Nineteen percent (19%) used 7mm Rem mag.
So almost 2/3 of respondents used 30-06, 7mm Mag or .300 mag. ...
There is no "best". Your choice needs to match your hunting style, terraine, recoil sensitivity, the shots your are willing to take, your skill level, etc, etc, etc, Whatever works for you with the above criteria, is "best", but only for you.
Ain't this nice? Spirited discussion without telling the next guy he's wrong, can't, shouldn't ... And the best part is we appear to be in agreement that I AM RIGHT!!! HAIL THE 7MM, KING OF THE ELK CARTRIDGES!! BobinNH I couldn't say it better. My experiences and observations are just as you described. In over 30 years of hunting and guiding hunters in Colorado, I've seen this play out every year. Magnums in general are great and awesome tools... for the man that can truly master the recoil and shoot it well enough to use the extra range afforded. This is no small task. IMLTHO (less than humble opinion) most don't commit them selves to learning to shoot well enough to wring out all the performance the "standards" are capable of, much less the added task of mastering prodigious recoil to extend the range at which large amounts of energy and momentum can be delivered. That, IMLTHO, is what magnums really have to offer, extended range. The standards offer all the punch necessary to reliably kill elk to somewhere around 300 yards (actually a good bit beyond IMLTHO but let's not take the uninitiated there again) with proper shot placement, just as the magnums will wound animals at any range with poorly placed shots.
I will say this though, on marginal shots, slightly marginal not I shot him in the belly marginal, the fast magnums may have some advantage depending on the bullet used. If one is using a frangible bullet, a cup and core or maybe a VLD or Nosler Partition with its' cup and core front end, that produces a tremendous wound this may, possibly, cause enough tissue damage and hemorrage to cause an animal to run a little less far so you might have a little better chance of finding him, if tracking conditions are right, and you are a good enough tracker, if... It's kind of like the thinking behind a varmint gun, blow hell out of them.
My old '06 shooting 180 grain cup and cores did this about as well as a magnum within a certain range. Remember my comments about range? But wait, those bullets frequently don't penetrate as well as a premium. My experience indicates deep penetration is a desirable trait in an elk bullet. The Nosler Partition gives a pretty good compromise of both, but I have not found them to be as accurate as most other bullets I've used, though even that is no real argument at real hunting ranges. Isn't a 3 MOA rifle adequate out to 300 yards? The thing I don't like about Partitions, and all cup and core bullets, is that they tend not to penetrate adequately on bone, and the tear up too much meat! I want to eat this beast when I'm done!
The magnums amplify this meat-destroying trait with their increased speed. Eventually I went to premium bullets in my '06 just to preserve meat. I hated to see my hunters show up with magnums and standard bullets for this reason, coupled with the fact that I had more wounded game from magnums than standards for reasons stated above.
Whew! All this gun talk is getting me worked up to go hunting! So, where were we... yes, THE KING OF THE ELK CARTRIDGES! This is my choice because it offers all the power one needs to kill elk, it offers magnum ranges, and it is far more shootable, IMLTHO, than a .300 because it recoils less. That said I am currently shooting a .270 because after a 16 year affair I finally got tired of getting kicked around by my magnums, and COOPER, THE KING OF THE SEMI-PRODUCTION ANY ONE CAN OWN ONE FACTORY RIFLES doesn't offer a 7mm Remington Magnum... yet
Damm, cobrad � after getting through that lllloooonnnnngggg paragraph, I�m exhausted and my eyes hurt! ItwaslikereadingasentencewithnospacesbetweenthewordsifyouknowwhatImean.
I had to copy/paste your post into an editor and throw some randomly placed double line breaks in just to make it more readable.! Think next time you might find time to hit the carriage return/�Enter� key a few times? Please?
Silly me, I used a 7mm RM with 160g Grand Slams on elk for 20+ years because that was all I had. Didn�t learn until later that it was grossly deficient�
Should have guessed as much, however, as some managed to make it a few yards�
My dream hunt gun (300WSM) would be for my sheep in Wy which I have 11 PP's for. My favorite elk hunt "gun" is my Hoyt Vectrix for which I am a max pt holder for a limited entry unit in Wy. How many pts did you have for your sheep? What wind conditions did you have on your 1100 yd shot? Thanks,
I would take my .270AI or my 257 weatherby shot several elk with both. But it comes down to personal preferance. I like the smaller calibers now because I can spend more time at the range, with less recoil.
SAY YOU WANTED to hunt with just one big-game rifle. Have it become an extension of your own body. Know it like the smell of your Dad's wool coat. Say you wanted it in a caliber flat enough to poke coyotes at long distance but powerful enough to make a bull elk take notice at the far end of a cross-canyon shot. Say you wanted it all in one package so you could always count on that one rifle to get the job done. Sound like a pipe dream?
The do-it-all rifle is not a myth, as many a seasoned rifleman knows. In fact, while the gunrags do a healthy business recommending good calibers for this, and best bullet for that, it's a fact that when flying lead doesn't have the intended results, it's the man behind the rifle that's almost certainly to blame. Show me a man who blames a miss on his rifle, and I'll show you a rifleman in need of polish, which leads to the primary reason behind choosing one good rifle -- polished skills.
Of course, the best way to polish skills is by shooting your chosen Betsy often and from real-life shooting positions. A rifle that feels right and doesn't kick like a mule goes a long way toward promoting regular practice. So does reloading for it, which will promote accuracy and increased familiarity.
It goes without saying that a one-rifle battery should be as accurate as possible. In practical terms, however, a 2-MOA rifle is plenty good enough for most big-game hunting. Latch onto a rifle that consistently shoots 1 MOA, and you'll regret the day you part with it. Any big-game rifle more precise than that should be considered an heirloom.
What really gets interesting, however, is deciding on a caliber. Ask five seasoned riflemen for their top choice, and you can expect five different opinions, all vehement, all well reasoned.
The .30-06 is the perennial all-mention, and rightly so; there's no rust on the classic. The .270 Winchester, aside from being a hell of a caliber, was Jack O'Connor's darling (though he admitted the ought-six probably was better) and therefore commands a prodigious following. The .338 Winchester Magnum was a favorite of Elmer Keith and is a superb choice for the steel-shouldered. The 7mm Remington Magnum does a whole lot with class.
Lots of others, most notably the .308 Winchester and the .280 Remington as well as various Weatherby Magnums and a slew of wildcats, can and do fit the bill. But the .300 Winchester Magnum -- the .300 Win. Mag. just might be the best of all! Except for the big brownies, which rate their own .375 H&H Magnum to many minds, the North-American hunter with a good .300 Winny has all the rifle he will ever need. And then some.
So, why not the .30-06? Why not, indeed. The good ol' ought-six is still a top choice. From 'chucks to elk, it is a serious caliber for the serious hunter, no question about it.
There is one area, however, where the ought-six gives up some ground, and that's when it comes to pushing heavy bullets -- the kind you want when big, tough critters like elk and moose are on the program. Yes, the classic .30-06 load pushing a 180-grain pill at 2700-2800 ft/sec will do almost anything you need, but throw in a big bull elk across a wide canyon at dusk, and the Winny gets the nod. Consider that at 400 yards, the Winny's 3100 ft/sec with the same 180-grainer gets you 450 ft/lbs more terminal energy and five inches less drop.
If that weren't telling enough, jump up to the 200-grain rock ,and by today's mega-magnum standards the 2550 ft/sec generated by a .30-06 case can be considered positively lethargic, although for close work in heavy timber, the combination is hard to beat.
By contrast, the Winny pushes the 200-grainer to a speedy 2950 ft/sec with careful reloads. At 400 yards, this translates into almost 700 ft/lbs more terminal energy and a trajectory flattened by 7 inches. That is the kind of difference that makes a difference on tough game.
Bottom line: While the .30-06 still may be the finest all-around caliber, it says here that if elk are in your plans (and elk are increasingly in everyone's plans) the .300 Winchester might be a better choice.
The same analysis applies to the .270 Winchester. By all accounts a hell of a sheep and deer caliber, throw elk into the equation and the .270 becomes marginal. Sure, there are elk hunters who shoot their bull with a .270 every year, but they are the exception. Most of the savvy elk crowd considers the .270 either too small or the absolute bare minimum for wapiti.
Suffice it to say that, at 400 yards, the .270 shooting 130 spitzers and the .300 Win. Mag. shooting 200-grain spitzers have virtually identical trajectories. The difference is that the .270 arrives carrying roughly 1300 ft/lbs of energy (below the 1500 ft/lbs often cited as a minimum for elk) while the Winny will deliver over a ton of energy, almost 2300 ft/lbs What the great .270 is to deer and sheep, the .300 Winny is to elk. Bad medicine.
As to the 7mm Remington Magnum, this fine caliber is often considered to be the ought-six's ballistic clone. The 7-Rem's small advantages in sectional density are offset by the .30-06's increased frontal area. The ought-six has an advantage in that more and heavier bullets are readily available, especially for the handloader, but basically, in the field you could choose one or the other and never notice the difference. So as versatile, accurate, and popular as this .284 is, the .30-06 retains an edge, and the .300 WinMag outclasses them both.
The .338 Winchester Magnum is another thing altogether. By all accounts a large caliber by North-American standards, it has been said that true recoil starts at the .338. A seasoned rifleman who practices regularly certainly should have no trouble handling the .338, but for many casual shooters, the .338 is simply too much rifle to shoot regularly or accurately.
It is noteworthy, however, that in terms of the wide spectrum of game animals available in North America, the .338 is probably the most well centered. A fair choice for the big brown bears (though a .375 H&H is superior for this work by an order of magnitude), the .338 is rightly considered by many as the preeminent elk caliber, while still being plenty flat enough for whitetails, antelope, and even coyotes. Take the big bears out of the equation, however, which they are for the vast majority of hunters, and the .338 becomes a too large shoulder pounder for most weekend warriors, though still optimal for dedicated wapiti chasers. Let face it. You don't need a .338 for any whitetail walking the earth.
By contrast, the beauty of the .300 WinMag is that it is so well suited to the typical range of hunting experiences to be had in North America.
After plains game? 180-grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 ft/sec equal bad mule-deer medicine and devastating performance on pronghorns. The same load is a ringer in "beanfield" situations. Elk and moose in your plans? Load 200-grain Partitions or A-Frames at 2900 ft/sec, and be assured that you have the right gun! Feel like practicing on coyotes or chucks? Scream some 165-grain boattails at 3250 ft/sec, and worry about your end of the rifle.
Like with all calibers, there are situations where a different caliber would be ideal, but for all-around versatility, flat trajectory, and high energy, the .300 Winchester Magnum shines, maybe like no other.
In the end, the choice of an all-around rifle depends on many factors. If you like a gun, you are much more likely to shoot it and shoot it well, so choose a rifle you like. Also, any experienced rifleman knows that where you hit 'em is much more important than what you hit 'em with, so place your emphasis on skills rather than on the size of the rock. But when all that is said and done, take a good hard look at the .300 Winchester.
.300 Winny is a very powerful round. I've used a couple .300's. Still doesn't change that most of the hunters I have guided couldn't shoot one well. All the gun writers and armchair elk experts on the internet can't change 30+ years of observation guiding elk hunters. Now, I honestly don't think we represent the average hunter here, only a bunch of gun loonies would spend so much time debating this stuff, arguing, posting pix... we can shoot anything... on the internet . But real world experience guiding or outfitting a few hundred hunters has served to form my opinions. Good and wonderful as all that power looks on paper, most guys won't/can't master the recoil, and you don't NEED that power to kill elk at the ranges the vast majority of elk are taken at. I never hesitated to shoot elk at ranges out around 400 with an '06, and won't with the .270 I'm now shooting. Someone here has made a couple of references to the superior ability of the big magnums to shoot into the middle of an elk, a gut shot is my interpretation, and they will still fall. Big guns don't make up for crappy shooting. Get a gun you can shoot well, and for the majority of hunters out there that is not a magnum, and you'll kill elk. I still steer my hunters away from magnums unless they are already shooting one. I would much rather see my guys show up with a .270 they can shoot than a magnum anything they are intimidated by.
SAY YOU WANTED to hunt with just one big-game rifle. Have it become an extension of your own body. Know it like the smell of your Dad's wool coat. Say you wanted it in a caliber flat enough to poke coyotes at long distance but powerful enough to make a bull elk take notice at the far end of a cross-canyon shot. Say you wanted it all in one package so you could always count on that one rifle to get the job done. Sound like a pipe dream?
The do-it-all rifle is not a myth, as many a seasoned rifleman knows. ...
As to the 7mm Remington Magnum, this fine caliber is often considered to be the ought-six's ballistic clone. The 7-Rem's small advantages in sectional density are offset by the .30-06's increased frontal area. The ought-six has an advantage in that more and heavier bullets are readily available, especially for the handloader, but basically, in the field you could choose one or the other and never notice the difference. So as versatile, accurate, and popular as this .284 is, the .30-06 retains an edge, and the .300 WinMag outclasses them both.
Not really a clone, although similar in capability. The 7mm RM can shoot flatter and deliver more energy at distance with recoil on a par or even less than a .30-06 with bullets of similar sectional density.
Where the -06 has an advantage is not so much in bullet availability but in the variety of factory ammo available. Even that advantage is due less to the choices available for hunting than to the relatively inexpensive ammo available for practice. For the handloader, the difference in bullet availability is generally unimportant. If one wants 220g bullets the .30-06 has the advantage, but most hunters would prefer jumping up in caliber if such heavies were required.
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... for many casual shooters, the .338 is simply too much rifle to shoot regularly or accurately.
... Let face it. You don't need a .338 for any whitetail walking the earth.
I would say the same applies to the .300WM.
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By contrast, the beauty of the .300 WinMag is that it is so well suited to the typical range of hunting experiences to be had in North America.
After plains game? 180-grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 ft/sec equal bad mule-deer medicine and devastating performance on pronghorns. The same load is a ringer in "beanfield" situations. Elk and moose in your plans? Load 200-grain Partitions or A-Frames at 2900 ft/sec, and be assured that you have the right gun! Feel like practicing on coyotes or chucks? Scream some 165-grain boattails at 3250 ft/sec, and worry about your end of the rifle.
I wouldn�t use BT�s at 3100fps, even in the .30/180g variety, but that is a different argument.
At ranges over 500 yards I�ll prefer my .300WM by a very slight margin, but for a �do-it-all� rifle the 7mm RM will get it done with significantly less recoil.
7mm RM, 175g @ 2950fps = If this won�t do it, I want something bigger than a .300... 7mm RM, 160g @ 3100fps = Yet to be found wanting on elk in my experience, works on mulies to prairie dogs, too. 7mm RM, 140g @ 3340fps = My choice these days (3200-3300). 7mm RM, 120g @ 3516fps = Talk about a �stringer� for bean fields...
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Like with all calibers, there are situations where a different caliber would be ideal, but for all-around versatility, flat trajectory, and high energy, the .300 Winchester Magnum7mm Remington Magnum shines, maybe like no other.
In the end, the choice of an all-around rifle depends on many factors. If you like a gun, you are much more likely to shoot it and shoot it well, so choose a rifle you like. Also, any experienced rifleman knows that where you hit 'em is much more important than what you hit 'em with, so place your emphasis on skills rather than on the size of the rock. But when all that is said and done, take a good hard look at the .300 Winchester7mm Remington Magnum.
In all fairness I must agree with Bobin that the .300 Win mag and it's big brother the .338 Win mag take top billing!!!
Well Tonk I won't for a single second doubt their ballistic capabilities, nor their effect on game,which is stellar for obvious reasons
I used the hell out of my 300 mags for years;Weatherby, Winchester,and H&H.All were great,and some were customs. And a lot of my friends had them as well...they always did a bang up job on anything.....but about 15 or so years ago my infatuation started to slip a bit,as my brain started to focus on what it already "knew",but refused to admit..
Namely that by the time you got the 300's light enough to pack around,recoil started to become bothersome...to get similar ballistic performance from the 30 caliber mags, as compared to the 7mm mags,you had to burn heavier charges of powder with heavier bullets to get these bullets to go fast enough.....ergo the trade off between rifle weight/recoil, etc.
Today some of that has changed with the 300 WSM rifles (SOME of which are as light as some of the big 7's I've hunted with) and this is good.Today there are more options,but still I find the big 7's can be made into generally lighter rifles than the big 30's and still keep recoil very manageable,which really helps in precision shooting....especially as I age...
So that today,as has been the case for the past 15-20 years,I reach for a 7 mag in those situations in which I'd previously grabbed a 300 and the stuff continues to fall down.....not necessarily because of any ballistic advantage of power over 300's but more because bullets are fabulous in 7mm,powder charges more moderate,and recoil reduced for the same trajectories,etc.performance on game also seems more than adequate..
..not to mention the better bullets available today,to the point that I look at a Big 7 as my "big gun"today.....I feel bad shooting deer sized stuff with it...it is just way more than required even on really large bodied deer but obviously does a great job.
And those panatella-long 175's seem to be a payload...years past I mostly used 160's so never shot 175's at elk....but even a garden-variety 175 Nosler Partition has a BC of .519,I suspect higher than any other Nosler Partition;and started at 2950-3100 fps (7 RM,Weatherby, Dakota...etc)hangs right in there with 180 gr loads from the 300 Winchester and Weatherby.Thes velocities attainable with 66-73 or so grains of powder vs the generally heavier charges required from the 300's.
It's interesting to read articles that about bigger rifles/cartridges that always play up that they produce more energy/velocity or whatever. But there is a point when you produce enough, and any more really serves very little purpose. They never seem to address that.
I've shot elk with 338, several different 300s, and 7mm Rem mag. They all worked just as they should have when I did my part. So pick one you are comfortable with and shoot well... 7mm, 300, or 338 put a good bullet in it and go elk hunting!!! 163bc
Thes velocities attainable with 66-73 or so grains of powder vs the generally heavier charges required from the 300's.
73 grains of powder will get you 2800 fps in a .375 H&H and a 260 Nosler all day long.So is the 7MM equal to the 375 also?Just kidding Bob and I have to say,the 7MM guys are die hard fans for sure..Kinda like the 45-70 croud.
There is no doubt,if you can't shoot any caliber because of recoil,your better off with a lighter recoiling cartridge but if the added weight and recoil of a larger diameter bullet at the same or faster velocity at an added .024 diameter(.308 over .284) and 25 more grains of weight(200 versus 175) you have a better killer on large game.
The .338 carries a .030 diameter advantage over the big .300's and it said to be a better killer than the .300 even though the big .308 bullets penetrate better than the big .338's arleast in test I have seen...So is the .338 a better killer than the .300 mags?If so,why then is not the .300 a better killer than the little 7MM?
That is if you can pack that big heavy .300 around and take the teeth jarring recoil.
73 grains of powder will get you 2800 fps in a .375 H&H and a 260 Nosler all day long.So is the 7MM equal to the 375 also? Just kidding Bob and I have to say,the 7MM guys are die hard fans for sure..Kinda like the 45-70 croud.
If I thought the 7mm RM qwas the equal of the .375 H&H, I wouldn�t be trying to decide between a .275 Ruger or .338-.375 Ruger for the custom I am working on.
Die-hard? I like my .300 WM and .45-70 a lot, since 1982 I have carried my 7mm RM as my primary elk rifle 22 years and have yet to find it wanting.
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� The .338 carries a .030 diameter advantage over the big .300's and it said to be a better killer than the .300 even though the big .308 bullets penetrate better than the big .338's arleast in test I have seen...So is the .338 a better killer than the .300 mags?If so,why then is not the .300 a better killer than the little 7MM?
That is if you can pack that big heavy .300 around and take the teeth jarring recoil.
Jayco
Penetration is only part of the story � how available energy gets transferred to the target is a big part of how effective a particular bullet is. Increased frontal area (within reason) tends to increase effective energy transfer. It is all about balancing the various factors. If penetration was only important factor, we�d all be shooting sharp-tipped solids.
Jayco: I played these caliber comparison mind-numbing games for years, too....I can't do it anymore cuz my head will 'splode!
I here 'ya and usually don't do it anymore either until it gets so lopped sided towards a certain caliber and so many diss the opinions of others with 10X the actual experience(Myself "excluded" on that)...I don't understand it...
But good answer Bob and thanks...
Coyote Hunter....Don't make me quote a man that was 10 years as a Bear Guide in Alaska with over 400 Bears down and a fine PH in Africa,both the same guy.
Coyote Hunter....Don't make me quote a man that was 10 years as a Bear Guide in Alaska with over 400 Bears down and a fine PH in Africa,both the same guy.
I have a couple cords of wood to take care of in a short time so hang on to your britches and I will in an hour or so.You'll be trading that little 7MM at the nearest trading post, in short order!!
I have a couple cords of wood to take care of in a short time so hang on to your britches and I will in an hour or so.You'll be trading that little 7MM at the nearest trading post, in short order!!
I too loved the .338WM. Took three cows with it over the years and the 225gr Partitions. One dropped at the shot (165yds)and never moved. The second did a 360* and fell (185yds). The third took two steps uphill, thought differently, turned around and fell downhill (140yds). Never recovered a bullet.
I've taken one (cow)at 275yds with a 300WM and a 180PPT Partition, two with a 270Win. using a 130gr and 150gr Partition. One with a 300WSM at 285yds, two steps and down into the snow with a 180 Partition. The latest with a 300WSM and a 180gr. Partition at 167yds and a recovery which I posted a couple of weeks ago.
Bottom line? Redundant yes, but it all comes down to bullet placement. For me? I will settle on the 270Win and/or the 30-06. As I get older, I find it harder to concentrate at the bench with 300's on up.
The answer would be a cartridge that all men, women, youth in this world could carry all day, and accuartely shoot worth a [bleep].
Could it be?
.308win
I'd say that'd be a handloaded 6.5x55 or 7x57. Factory fodder, then .260 or 7mm-08.
+1 . . . I just rounded out my .284 collection with a 7mm-08 Remington Mod 7 MS custom to go along with my 7x57 custom mauser. I'm just a little top heavy with two 6.5x55 swedes and two .260 remmys.
My youngest daughter used her 7-08 to take 4 elk and 4 mulies in her first 4 years of hunting. She was 12 when she started. It worked every time. Good shot placement works!
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I have THE ONE.
Normally people who think they have THE ONE really irritate me, but after long thought on the topic and observation of this thread, I know THE ANSWER.
The best elk cartridge in the world is the one the rifle I'm holding is chambered to when the elk I want (which at this point is a pretty broad statement, seeing as I've never even hunted elk before) steps in front of me.
9,3x57, .338-06 A-Square, .325 WSM, .30-06, 7x57, 6.5-.284 Norma, or .257 AI would be the exhaustive list of possibilities for me at this point, but give it a year and I'm sure a few more will be added to the list .
Bob, a midweight 300 WSM, to me, recoils about like the same weight 7mm RM. But stock design is more important than recoil figures for sure.
Aside, a 7.5-8lb all-up 300 WSM is a LOT of cartridge and likely is my "ideal" elk platform. A sub 7lb all-up 30-06 is also big elk medicine IMO/E. Either would work as an all-arounder for me. 308 Win too... hey, I like 30's what can I say!
I thought I was high tech because my last bull was killed with an anemic 7 Rem Mag and a 160 partition,with a 2.5-8 Leupold.
Dats 21st century,right??!!
Or,(and I keep forgeting to get pics of this stuff)my rancher buddy, Bill, who calls last month and tells me he killed (another)310-320 6x6 with a 270 Remington Mountain rifle in a 25 year old Brown Precision stock and an equally old 4X Leupold,and loaded with 130 Sierra's....
...we don't know how many bull elk that rifle has killed anymore.....have sorta lost count but the number is likely up around 25-30...why I laugh when folks say the 270 Win(aka,280 Remington,284 Winchester)are chump change elk cartridges....
I'm yet to kill an Elk but it's most certainly on my to do list. When I do, it will most likely be with a 7mm of some sort and mainly because I'm likely never to own something over .284 cal as I just don't feel the need.
When I read about or talk with people who hunt and kill big Elk on a regular basis, the talk of "magnums" rarely if at all enters the conversation.
Given the "hunter" provides the mode of introduction between the bullet and game, I'd say that THE most important issue is YOUR ability and second by that of the bullet you choose. The rest is simply campfire conversation.
I believe there might be a place for big magnums for many people who can actually shoot them, but the vast majority of "magnum" owners own one as a way of minimizing there actual handicap.
Sort of like sprinkling magic pixie dust over the hunt!
If case capacity versus results and recoil then it's clear to me the .270 Win is more sufficient than the 7MM Rem Mag and the 30-06 is more sufficient than the .300 Win Mag.
Average case capacities..
.270 Win.....68 7MM Rem M....84
For 16 grains of powder(and recoil) what does the 7MM really bring to the table over the .270 Win other than .007 in diameter and muzzle blast.
30-06........69 300 WM.......89
For 20 grains of powder (and recoil) what does the .300 WM really bring to the table over the '06 other than velocity and muzzle blast.
Now the 7MM and 300WM are both very close in capacity and for the capacity and results,I know which I would and did choose.
Heck..After reading this I am going to sell my .300WM and just use the little efficient '06 and .270.
CLB: My rancher pal is a good shot, has lots of experience,and is familiar with the rifle....he knows when to shoot and when not to.He also has high regard for 7 mags and 300 mags, both of which he has also used to kill elk.
In other words he has the skill and judgement to make the 270 work well for him.Some other folks who use bigger cartridges and know what they are doing will have the same result,no doubt.
Bob, no doubt mags work well for those who know how to shoot them.
I should have simplified by saying that folks like your rancher friend abound in Elk country and hunt Elk as regular as we hunt deer. The main difference being they know how effective standard cartridges can be on Elk because they have taken dozens....
I'm like you when I hear that the .270 and alike are marginal especially with today's bullet options.
In my last elk camp out of six hunters, everyone of which except me, born and raised in Montana, all had hunted and killed many elk over the years, there were five 7mm Rem Mags and one .338 Win Mag. Someone must have written a good article on the 7mm RM back when these guys were young and ready to buy their first hunting rifle. You never had to worry about running out of of forgetting your ammo in that camp.
The more elk I am fortunate to bring home the less I think a magnum is needed. A 270/280/30-06 class rifle is perfectly adequate with quality bullets and good placement.
I read an article years ago by Craig Boddington in wich he made the case for the 8mm Remmington Magnum... I've never shot an Elk with one, but he made some good points.
One thing I always giggle about is the folks that diss the .270 for elk and then if they get some experience with it they begin to change their tune..
And, I'd add that the people who diss the .270 for elk tend to live a fair ways away from where the elk do and they generally have lil or no experience when it comes to taking elk with the round. Go figure...
One thing I always giggle about is the folks that diss the .270 for elk and then if they get some experience with it they begin to change their tune..
And, I'd add that the people who diss the .270 for elk tend to live a fair ways away from where the elk do and they generally have lil or no experience when it comes to taking elk with the round. Go figure...
Dober
Dober, my theory is for every 500 mi from the front range an inexperienced person lives, the foot-lbs of muzzle energy of the cartridge carried by the gonna-be elk slayer generally goes up by 1000 ft-lbs over that of the standards-- say just under 3k ft- lbs.--due to bigger cases and/or calibers. It was true of me when I started and I've observed it numerous times since that time in 1987. Of course there are exceptions in every direction one looks but it was true often enough that I took notice.
As Seinfeld would say, "not that there is anything wrong with that", but I've also witnessed enough times the accompanying ineptitude in shooting those rifles so- chambered. Even saw a guy who couldn't keep three shots with a plain vanilla 7 mm Rem Mag on a paper plate at 100 yds.
If I have a word of advice for the new elk hunter, no matter where he is from, is use you deer rifle if it is of the 30-06, or 308 family of cartridges minus the 6mm and 257 variants, use a premium bullet, and practice as much as you can to as far as you can...
i'd take a ruger 77 mkII rs (with the boat oar stock) in the old .35 whelen and the 225gr tbbc. do your part and its good to 300yds, far enough for me anyway.
I think part of that effect (far away= big guns) is that guys who live in 'em are playing a different game than out of state hunters.
Put another way.... take that front-range, 270-totin' guy and have him obsess over a hunt in [somewhere far away, expensive, and cool] for [some big animal he's never killed] and I bet our front-range guy gets a little geeky about choosing a rifle, too.
If/when I get to hunt elk in Montana, it won't be with a rifle I think isn't "best" for the job. Not "adequate", not "plenty good".
300 RUM shooting 200 Grain Nosler accubonds at 3000 FPS. Or go with the Nosler 180 E-tip at 3150. Either of those have great ballistics for long range and they will put a thump on any bull
I used to shoot a .300 Jarrett that pushed those 200 gr Accubonds at 3028 fps. Yep, it put a thump on any bull, and anyone who shot it as well. Recoil, according to a recoil calculator, was not too far off a .458 Win. mag, and yes, I had one of those too. My Jarrett was about 8 lbs scoped. I shot it with a brake to tame that recoil. It killed elk just fine. It was also way more gun than necessary to kill elk. To quote CLB;
"When I read about or talk with people who hunt and kill big Elk on a regular basis, the talk of "magnums" rarely if at all enters the conversation."
That pretty well sums up my life-long experience here in western Colorado, the elk hunting capitol of the world. (IMO) There's more guys here than when I was a kid that shoot magnums, but most of them are from somewhere else My son-in-law shoots a .300, and has for years. He still can't hit a thing with it! But it's a manly gun and he prefers to miss than to admit he can't shoot it. Poor guy, he really caught hell when my daughter shot one when he couldn't hit it. Any way, all this is fun, but when you come here to hunt elk, do yourself a favor and bring the gun you can already shoot with. It's a huge disappointment to get here, work for a shot, then miss or shoot poorly because you can't shoot that roaring magnum well. Don't go home saying I wish I had brought ol' faithful that I've shot a thousand deer with.
Elk are not mythical or armor plated. Any rifle chambered in a cartridge between .264 and .338 is fine if you shoot it well. That even includes .308 based cartridges. Honestly, a decent sporter-weight 30-06 makes a great elk rifle from the timber to open meadows and canyons. 400 yards is a long way for most hunters to shoot at any game and the 30-06 with a good bullet will handle that easily.
I think part of that effect (far away= big guns) is that guys who live in 'em are playing a different game than out of state hunters.
Put another way.... take that front-range, 270-totin' guy and have him obsess over a hunt in [somewhere far away, expensive, and cool] for [some big animal he's never killed] and I bet our front-range guy gets a little geeky about choosing a rifle, too.
If/when I get to hunt elk in Montana, it won't be with a rifle I think isn't "best" for the job. Not "adequate", not "plenty good".
Best.
Elk aren't "big"'not really anyway;a bull will weigh (what?) 650-750 pounds(never weighed one).....oh they can be "long",but even through the chest I doubt it takes more than 18"-20" inches of penetration from broadside to get most all the vital plumbing.....even through shoulders a 150-160 gr 270/7mm bullet will handle that with ease if construction is good..
But sometimes they can take a solid hit and not react to it....this throws people off base....makes them think elk are tough...they are soft-skinned game,nothing more.
But as animals get larger, I have found you have to be even more precise in placement,because you simply won't overwhelm large animals with power from indifferently (sloppily)placed bullets from powerful cartridges.
And that is the rub......if you can shoot a powerful cartridge,fine.....use it....IME there are those who "can",and those who "think" they can.....like Cobrads SIL....they are legion.......and I have never seen a 300/338 mag shooter who was worth shidt behind the rifle unless he was a handloader and burned 1000-3000,4000 rounds of CF ammo a year...the rest are clueless as to pulling full advantage from a magnum capacity rifle.
+1...I know a fella in Oklahoma who can shoot his 300 Win Mag as well as I can my 270..but he handloads and spends many range hours every year...I have a 300 Wby which I handload for and shoot quite a bit...but for Elk I prefer my 30'06 or 270... On a Moose/Elk combo back in 1982 on the Toad River of BC a fella showed up with a 300 Weatherby that he had bore sighted before the trip...this guy was afraid of his rifle and would have been better served by a good old '06...I think he missed something like 8 shots..before he finally gut shot a Moose which was never found.. moral to this story is the hunter not the caliber...
and I have never seen a 300/338 mag shooter who was worth shidt behind the rifle unless he was a handloader and burned 1000-3000,4000 rounds of CF ammo a year...the rest are clueless as to pulling full advantage from a magnum capacity rifle. ___
That's the quote I was referring to in your post.More coffee please.
+1 Problem is some of these elk hunters that get a week off a year and grab the same box of shells that his Dad gave him 5 years ago. 20 cartridges should last -5years.
+1 Problem is some of these elk hunters that get a week off a year and grab the same box of shells that his Dad gave him 5 years ago. 20 cartridges should last -5years.
Expecting to hit something are you???
378/OU76: Yes, and your examples are exactly the type shooter/hunter I am talking about.....NOT the guys who keep a hand-in year round, never have to zero a rifle because their rifles are NEVER out of zero,all year......they have burned up the rounds and put in the range time to become fully accustomed to magnum level recoil.They do well with any rifle......
A big +1 on that Bob...on my 4 go to hunting rifles...270, 30-06, 300 Wby and 375 I will shoot no less than 400 rounds per off season...in hunting situations... if I add the 264, 340 or 338 it'll be closer to 500 rounds..the bulk of my shooting will be with the rifles I plan to use during the upcoming season...and really I should practice more...but just do not have the time...
I don't know what the best Elk cartridge is, but I had an old timer out in Wisdom, Montana tell me a few years back what he thought were the worst. The 7MM Rem and 300 Win mag according to him were the absolute worst, because a lot of the guys shooting them thought they could just shoot in the general area of an Elk and it was supposed to fall dead. He said he and his buddies spent more time chasing Elk wounded by them, than any others. He used a Swift with 70 gr Speers IIRC.
BobinNH I agree. It's not the magnums that aren't accurate, it's the folks who have not shot enough to master them that aren't accurate. I had a 7 mag that for several years was my favorite long range prairie dog gun because it was deadly accurate. That gun consistently shot in the .4's with 168 gr. Sierra Matchkings. I used to shoot ground hogs with my .300 Jarrett to practice for elk. 'Hogs from several football fields away make an elk look as big as a barn through the scope. I'm thinking real hard about another 7 mag for a long range marmot gun. My .270 is doing great out past 700 yards, but it's getting a bit sensitive to wind at those ranges. I'm beginning to look at 1K yards and this is a perfectly valid reason why I NEED another 7 mag to sling those super-high BC 180 gr. VLD's. I'm hoping Cooper introduces their magnum chamberings this summer. Seem odd, but I really have more use for a magnum to shoot little furry critters than I do for elk. It's all about the range.
I don't know what the best Elk cartridge is, but I had an old timer out in Wisdom, Montana tell me a few years back what he thought were the worst. The 7MM Rem and 300 Win mag according to him were the absolute worst, because a lot of the guys shooting them thought they could just shoot in the general area of an Elk and it was supposed to fall dead. He said he and his buddies spent more time chasing Elk wounded by them, than any others. He used a Swift with 70 gr Speers IIRC.
Luke: Perfectly good cartridges get bad reputations in the hands of lousy shots......both the 300 WM and the 7RM are excellent elk cartridges,and their popularity is the reason they wind up in the hands of some people who can't shot straight.They both have a demonstrated ability to be one shot killers on any elk.....in the right hands.
was that b4 or after the article he wrote about nuking the elk a bit over 400 yds at the Wittington Center with a 270 and a 150 Nozler...
Dober
Personally, I like Boddington and been reading his stuff for over 20 yrs. I also have his book North American Rifles and in there he states he would not use a .270 for elk if that was his primary game animal being pursued. He also talks about Bob Milek in the book, who is probably one of my all time favorites. Milek and family were big on the 257 Roberts and 25-06.
It seems though in the last few years Boddington is giving credit on rounds that recoil less but still get the job done. Maybe its age, maybe its experience but I know the older I get the less I like recoil and enjoy shooting more pleasant rounds and from experience see that they work with good bullets in the right place.
I also believe that guys from east of the Mississippi when hunting elk are investing a good chunk of change and are using bigger rounds to kinda of even the odds. Nothing wrong with that mentality if you practice and shoot it well. A good friend invest about $10k every two yrs hunting Montana elk or Newfie Moose and Caribou, he does it with a .300 Weatherby but again has had the rifle for 20+ years, loads for it and practices on a regular basis. He is a .30 caliber fan period and sure he can kill his animals with his little .308 but he has confidence and skill that when the .300 WM roars it hits where he is aiming.
Bob Milek was also a great fan of the 30-06...in his book Rifles & Cartridges for NA Game...he recommends adequate elk calibers to be 270, 30-06,7 mag and 300 mag...and considered the 30-06 to be the best fit for an all around NA big game caliber..if there is such a thing...I have taken 26 of NA 29 game animals with my 30-06..ditto with my 270...JY Jones took all 29 NA game animals with his Model 700 ADL 30-06 using 165 NP and 200 NP.....
I haven't shot enough elk to know for sure, but I sure love the combo of a .338 Win Mag and a 210gr Partition.
I've never taken elk with the 35 Whelen, but that combined with the 225 grain Partition sounds cool too. I've wanted one ever since I saw Bob Milek posing with an elk and his Whelen. Never have owned one though. In fact, I don't even own a .338 any more, so next time I draw a tag my "best elk cartrige" may be my .270 Winchester. I've been wanting to see what those 160gr Partitions would do.
338 win mag. However, I was thinking about it today and thought a 308 win. with a good 165 partition or ttsx would of put last years bull down with no problem.
The "Best" elk cartridge in the world,(for me) would be light enough to carry anywhere I hunt elk but heavy enough to steady in a crosswind. Fast enough to shoot 350yds without holding over the animal and slow enough that I wont waste a quarter to "blood mush" if I shoot at 60'. Sexy enough that I won't be bored and buy something else, but common enough to find ammo anywhere if I leave mine at home on the counter. That's why I shoot .308win-300RUM and 25.06-45-70 and several in between.
Bob Milek has come up a couple times, I enjoyed his down to earth style and the fact he was out doing it every year. He used a 25/06 on elk quite a bit as well.
And about the fella investing 10K to go to Montana to hunt elk. It's my opinion that a fella spending that kind of ching has a way better opportunity to take a quality bull on a 5-7 day hunt than the local who gets to hunt elk 3-4 days a year on public land. Totally different situations and IMO if a case could be made for one of them to carry the bigger round I'd opt for the local each and every time. Point being, I don't buy the idea of the out of stater coming here and needing an bigger round. Elk don't care what state they persons from who's shooting at them. They die when the right equipment is taken out.
Right on. One of the myths that we hear constantly (even on the Campfire) is that the local can use a smaller round because he has all the time in the world to hunt, and thus can pass up any chance that isn't perfect.
This is BS. Most locals don't get to hunt except on weekends, and often only one day of the weekend. Even with Montana's rifle season being 5 weeks long, this leaves only a few days of hunting--normally on public land with hundreds of other hunters. Thus local hunters are NOT likely to pass up a less-than-perfect shot on any legal elk.
A guided non-resident has 5-10 days of uninterrupted hunting. If a pricier hunt, it's also on private land with a lot more elk. The non-resident is actually the hunter with more reason to pass on a shot, whether because the bull is too small, or because the shot is iffy.
It depends on what the definition of local is?Local as in living in the State or local as living close to the area hunted.Someone can live in Boise and not know diddly about the Selway/Gospal Hump/Frank Church/Clearwater or St Joe but take someone living in St Maries/Yellowpine/Elk City or Dixie,and it's a different ball game.
I know tons of local hunters that take there vacation during Elk hunting that have jobs that give that.
I think it is about even as to odds when someone hires a Guide that spends his time finding Elk for his clients prior too, to those that live near the Elk,and do Guiding also and know where they are.
Our local hardware guy is a Guide for a Selway outfit and they took 5 Elk this year and more locals went without compared to previous years.The 5 Elk were hard earned also compared to last year and more Elk quicker.
Dober...I never got to meet or talk with Bob Milek but I liked his down to earth style too...I found Milek to be a lot like Bob Hagel...enjoyed both of these fellas a lot...and when it came to Elk and NA big game hunting ..I listened to both of them...
Thanks again for pointing that out. With the credibility you have maybe people will believe it. I rarely get more than a few days to hunt a season let alone the time it takes to get elk.
Aww you guys are just trying to scare off the nonresidents. Everybody knows from watching the Outdoor channel that anybody that goes out only needs about 20 minutes to shoot a big bull.
I think if everyone just looked around,they would find the modern day guru's of hunting,every bit as good as the names of old, that never typed or wrote a word in there life,just did and do it.I know a couple,one that taught JO a few tricks but he passed on last summer..
Then there is my good ole buddy that raised horses in the hills and baked at the local grocery store that forgot more about Elk hunting than most know..But he road his Stud horse into a bar one night and got arrested so he probably forgot about hunting,atleast that night.They had to take the cuffs off him for an hour to take care of his stud because know one could control it other than him..
There is still a bunch of old timers out there with knowledge of the outdoors far and beyond most.Those are the ones you want to listen to,not the desk jockeys(laughing).
You're right Jayco. Problem is most of those oldguys wouldn't give them deskjockeys the time oday if they behave in person the way they do on the Inet.....So the deskjockeys still loose out...
Though I think all this obsessing over cartridges is mildly amusing now, I must confess to having been as guilty as any of having done it... and not all that long ago, either. My ____hole was puckered tightly about whether or not my '06 with 165's would take an elk, 'til the critter fell over without enough drama to make a decent hunting story.
I used to read the occasional gun rag, 'til I noticed that every month had the same article in it: "The ______ is one amazing cartridge!". Several columns of ballistic gack later, the writer gets to the part about the hunt they were invited on, where "I shot a _____, and it died". I couldn't stay interested enough to renew any of my subscriptions.
I've gotten out in the field only enough to know that my hunts will be ruined far sooner by my weak stalking skills, or my not having scouted adequately, or my poor physical conditioning, or my lack of time shooting from field positions, or by wearing blue jeans, or by my using black tape on the rifle's muzzle (rather than the obviously superior blue)... than it ever will by my choice of cartridge.
Dober & MD, as to the resident/nonres thing... the reason it gets brought up the way it does by us non-res guys is that people will tell a story about some crusty old guy (let's call him "Poopy Pete"for the time he had to ride out the winter in an old Basque sheepherders shed with no toilet paper)... It goes like this:
"Well I know a guy called ol' Poopy Pete who's been hunting elk since 1931 and has killed over 50 of them, mostly with a 25/20 carbine his dad Sourmash Sam gave him before he left Pete to be raised by wolves and went to pan gold in the Yukon.
Poopy Pete would laugh to hear of them flatlanders that think you need a cannon to kill elk! Why he still gets one every year with that ol' 25/20 of his'n... out by the haystacks.... on the ranch he's been riding for since 1947........".
MD you said early on in this thread that, essentially, a big magnum can indeed make up for an inch or so of aiming error. I presume that's because of a wider wound channel. That's not completely insignificant. My bull (ok, raghorn) was trotting at about 150 yds broadside and I didn't lead him as much as I should. My .325/Accubond combo nuked one lung pretty good but just caught the back lobe of the other with some fragments and a small tear. I was real close to one-lunging a trotting bull elk and that's not a good thing- but a big rifle (and frangible bullet- unlike a TSX ) helped put him down quick.
I dunno; i'm a babe in the elk woods with only ~9 seasons and a couple elk, but I still say- shoot the biggest cartridge you can SHOOT WELL for elk. I don't see anything wrong with that statement.
Why are you a non resident hunter?There's plenty of Elk in Oregon.I have two boys out of Cottage Grove doing concrete work that see elk all the time.
There's some Poopy Pete's in Oregon also.Ask around...'Ya can't ask a Montana hunter what Idaho Mule Deer taste like or an Idaho guy about the taste of Montana Mule deer.Gotta be there to no.
I'm a resident in Oregon. I'm known as Jerkoff Jeff because I got stuck all winter in a Basque sheeperherders cabin with just a pile of Playboys and a 55-gal drum of lotion............
We have elk, but not "lots". It's a lower-percentage game across the board than the major elk factory states. There are tags we can get that approximate what you guys see, but you'll only get those tags every 4-5-6-7-?? years and in between you hunt some pretty chitty hunts by Idaho or Montana standards.
Jayco I've got a spot I hunt deer & grouse near Cottage Grove and there's elk there. I've seen them twice (out of season). But you simply can't imagine how thick it is around there off the logging roads. Visibility of 10, 20, maybe 30 yards. You can try to catch them in a clearcut but our critters have wised up (or got shot) as far as GENERALLY being in cuts in season during shooting hours.
The one time I hunted elk out of state (Colorado) it was a revelation to me on three levels. First- an "any elk" tag. We don't get those, in fact I've hunted a few seasons with the dreaded spike tag... second, to be hunting deer and elk at the same time. We don't get to do that. Third, I could SEE! Even the timbered ares weren't too thick to glass "into" from an opposing hillside. Here, you just see treetops so glassing anything other than a cut is useless. Oh, one more thing... our seasons are only 5 days, typically, on the east side of the state. .
Anyway with opportunities being few and far between here, you won't catch me using a "small" rifle and restricting myself to broadside shots under 200 yards blah blah blah. Give me all the rifle I can handle.
We had a married couple get an elk a piece this year in our area. They are both in their early nineties. Her a cow as I recall and his a big 6pt bull. They got them out whole by themselves, well with the help of their tractor. I don't know what calibers they were using, but it was on their ranch, a ranch the elk winter on I believe. So, they could probably get away without shooting at a bad angle. Plus they live on the ground the elk frequent.
I hope you clicked on the link I gave..Just a good 'ole boy from Oregon that gets his Elk almost every year!!!
As far as as big as you can handle..You would be surprised how far a 140 grain Trophy Bonded will penetrate out of a .270 Win.I clipped one in the rear quarter on a running away shot and it penetrated the rear ham through all the guts and stuff,taking out the heart,and was found under the skin on the far/front right shoulder..Almost..Complete penetration stem to stern from a .270 Win....
I know the thread has drifted from the title, but here's my opinion. Any cartridge with a quality bullet with enough energy for the range and, you can shoot comfortably is the best cartridge.
In 1962, I worked for the USAF in Dixie, Idaho. There were 2 WW1 widows (Maude and Hayes) that who poached elk using a Model 94 in 30-30. It worked for them, but then maybe those elk are not wearing Kevlar, as they apparently do today. Today, it seems that a 338 Win Mag is minimum.
One Sunday, we were all sitting in one of the bars (the whole town had 24 people in the summer and supported 2 bars). Maude said that she had to go get an elk for food and I eagerly joined her. She shot a large cow (remember, she used a 30-30) and quartered it. I picked up one quarter (about 130 pounds) and started to stumble out of the forest and back to town, all the while complaining about the weight. She grabbed it and just started off with nary of a whimper. I returned and picked up another quarter, headed out and did not murmur one bit! Looking back, Maude and Hayes had to be in their 60�s and they were tough old birds!
Now Dixie has no bars and no grocery stores..Elk City is the closest place to get vidals or a drink.
Your story rings true and it is sad people believe alot of this internet nonsense about what it takes to kill an Elk..There was a ranch on the Salmon River called the Williams place just up river from Ivan Harts place(Buckskin Billie)who came to supper every Sunday....
Anyway...The Williams and there 3 daughters all lived off the land and all the game they ate was taken with a Winchester .32 Special levergun..From squirrels to Moose/Elk/Deer and Bear or even Grouse(No shotgun)..One of the daughters,a friend of the wife,still does the weather here...
All people need to do is learn to hunt first then they will find,caliber is not all that important if you know how to use it!!
Jayco, your .270 story doesn't surprise me, SD matters (oh boy, here we go) and a hard 140 from a .270 is gonna dig deep... But penetration isn't everything, and of course larger cartridges penetrate too.
I have carried a 7-08 for elk before; it was my backup rifle my first couple years and I carried it to try to change my luck. I had no doubt it would kill an elk...
... but since I shoot things like my .338 very well I simply don't see the advantage- for ME- in a lighter cartridge.
There's also the deadererer factor. Elk shot with say a .270, or deer with a .223, are only dead. Even after butchering and wrapping and freezing you can still hear the packages rustling around in the freezer... no thanks. I prefer them to freeze up and hold still for Pete's sake! (not Poopy Pete; different Pete).
With my .325 or presumably .338 the elk are deadererer and the meat stays still in the freezer.
The Hierarchy of Elk hunting continues, yet lacks the real hunters whom don't own a computer or want too.
I guess a guy has to count post compared to the year signed up to see who is really an Elk Hunter!!!
Jeff..You have a sense of humor and that's good and puts you in the good 'ole boys club,in my mind.You don't run and hide if questioned!!!
Don't change.
Jayco
Lol, thanks JC.
I'm not a "real" elk hunter and likely never will be. I'll be lucky to get into double-digits as far as kills on them...
If or when the day comes I can't shoot my magnums well, I'll step down to... well, whatever it is I can shoot well! Shooting well is the #1 criteria. I think we all agree on that.
Funny how stuff works. A guy in my camp was on a real roll the first few years I hunted with this crew and killed 4 in 5 years or something like that. This was when we still hunted Tower Mountain, before the elk up and left... anyway he killed his first 4-5 elk with a 30-06 and was generally not pleased; he shot a couple more than once, and even lost one that was reasonably well-hit (found it a few days later).
So early on, I heard a lot of bitching about 30-06. Meanwhile, same camp, my pard Jerry flat poleaxed two bulls with his .338 at around 300 yds each. I mean DRT!
So in my formative years, these were the people and elk kills I was around.
Meanwhile, I bought a .338 and put a chitload of rounds through it and found, lo and behold, I could shoot it! Great! A lot! In fact for a while there it was my single most reliable "hitter of things" out to 600 yards. Love that rifle.
I'm not a "real" elk hunter and likely never will be. I'll be lucky to get into double-digits as far as kills on them...
You want to be a successful elk hunter, you need to hunt the same area, over and over and over, and learn the terrain and learn the elk. Also take into account what one of those old guys said to me along time ago "son if you want to kill elk, you need to be where they are and shoot the first legal one that you see"
The best one I have found for killing them sooner than later has been the ones I used to make a high shoulder shot with and dropped them in their tracks. I watched a bunch of cows come crawling out of a draw filled with blow down aspen. I knew I was not going to get a horse in there. So when one stopped on a little knoll, right at the edge of the draw, I put a 168 gr. TSX high in the near shoulder. At 292 yards the bullet took out both shoulders and the spine and dropped her in her tracks. I rode my horses right up to her. This was a moderate velocity load, 2800 fps, from a .300 WSM, similar to an '06 in velocity. By contrast I put a 250 gr. slug from a .358 STA through an average size bull right at 200 yards and he ran far enough I thought another elk that came running out of the draw was him. I tracked that bull for a good way and thought I had missed clean. I disbelief I started back and from an opposite hill side I could see the bull I had shot had run across the hill about 75 yards and crashed in a small depression. Which worked better? The CNS shot. I don't recall ever shooting an elk through the boiler room that didn't run at least close to 50 yards before falling.
I don't recall ever shooting an elk through the boiler room that didn't run at least close to 50 yards before falling.
I used to think that until this little 5-PT that took a double lung from my .300 Win Mag and a 180 Nosler..Froze right there and never took another step,and I wanted and needed him too.
So much for all Elk act the same way with the same shot!!!
The last two bulls I shot: The first one took one 180-gr. NP from an '06 through both lungs, turned to go the other way and I gave him another one in the same spot,but from the opposite side. He dropped right there, not 3 feet from where I first hit him.
The second one took one 165-gr. Interbond through both lungs from an '06, staggered for about 15 or 20 yards, and dropped.
....... By contrast I put a 250 gr. slug from a .358 STA through an average size bull right at 200 yards and he ran far enough I thought another elk that came running out of the draw was him. I tracked that bull for a good way and thought I had missed clean. I disbelief I started back and from an opposite hill side I could see the bull I had shot had run across the hill about 75 yards and crashed in a small depression. Which worked better? The CNS shot. I don't recall ever shooting an elk through the boiler room that didn't run at least close to 50 yards before falling.
Good post.....true.Unless bone is taken along the line there is a pretty good chance he is gonna move....and IME it matters little on pure lung/chest shots if the bullet is over or under 30 caliber.
If a 7mm,30 cal, or 338 bullet all expand to .65-70 caliber,wrecking vitals...which one is "better"?
I just wonder where in the equation the poor elk has had "enough";and whether having "more" really helps....
To answer the question,of course the 375,but not because of energy, but because the heavier construction of the 375 bullets are designed to break the great big bones and penetrate the big muscles to reach the vitals of the buff.....he is for sure one of the few animals against which I would rather have the 375H&H.
For obvious reasons....and yet,we both know that the 300 and various 7mm's have killed a slew of buffalo,which tells us other things...even though I wouldn't go there myself....
My favorite broad head is a 100 grain Slick Trick.It will shoot clear through most Elk on a good shot cutting a better swath than most rifles, yet it kills slower...Why?
Shot at 310 fps it has only 21 fpe off a bullet energy calculator.
Could energy really have an effect on game or is it the nonsense we sometimes read..I think it must or the 375 Winchester would be equal to the 375 H&H.
Gotta go snowmobiling if the snows good on top.Later...
Consider that a shooter is not shooting the "elk". Rather the bullet needs to impair the vitals enough to cause death. The heart/lung of an 800 lb elk does not need four times the destructive capacity of that needed on an 200 lb deer. An arrow thru either will quickly incapacitate the critter.
As far as any "rules" about how far an elk will go after being lung-shot with X diameter-and-weight bullet, and Z amount of energy, the biggest bull I've ever killed took one 180-grain bullet from a .30-06 (range 250 yards) and just stood there for a couple of seconds, then tried to walk off and keeled over dead. The total distance the bull traveled after being hit was maybe 20 feet, if you included how far he slid and rolled after hitting the ground.
Once upon a time somebody posted on the Campfire that the elk he shot with a .30-06 always traveled more than 100 yards further than the elk he shot with a .300 Winchester Magnum. This same guy also claimed he'd killed "almost 10 elk"--which could be anything from 6 to 9 elk, I guess.
The truth is you'd have to killed hundreds of elk, with a wide variety of cartridges and bullets, to come to any meaningful conclusions. Even then the statitsics would have to be separated by shot placement, bullet, impact velocity and any number of other factors.
And once you got done with all that, there would still be exceptions.
I would say best for me would be my Dan Toelke Long Bow, Easton A/C/C with a 100gr Razor Trick. There is nothing more exciting then hunting elk up close and personal that is hunting to me. If you can't get close you don't know how to hunt, all you can say is you know how to shoot.
MCH, I can only imagine! Having a gobbler come in about makes my chest explode with excitement <g>. Think I'd crap my pants to call a 800-lb horned up bull within 10 yards....
It is much harder to find the "best elk". Now there is a topic worthy of discussion. Help me find him and I can get the job done with many different rifle and cartridge combinations.
Oh I love that feeling of a big ole goobler coming into the call. But the best was my first elk I harvested. It was my last day to hunt before I had to head back home. I was trying to call a 6X7 that was about two hundred yards out infront of me. Nothing but open grass between him and me. Suddenly I hear a bugle right behind me. I slowly turn to see a 5X4 standing broadside to me @ 35 yards. So the 6X7 just wasn't meant to be. But I did stick the 5X4 and will never forget that hunt.
No doubt, it will be a fine one. I've looked at that round myself. I like how it looks on paper. I'm debating a 375 H&H for AK. It would see double duty on elk, along with my .270. Serious overkill, like the .358 STA I used for while, but it will kill 'em.
I have many rifle and cartridge combos good for elk. If I win I'm ready to go. My Stainless Super Grade 300WSM and 180NAB are always ready to hunt and could be the best.
If I had the cash and time before this amazing dream hunt I would love to develop a hot rod 375RUM on a Winchester action with a 25" #6 Schneider, Jewell trigger, FFP Mark 4, McMillan A3, and of course a Limbsaver.
Once upon a time in the little country of Blogistan there was a lot of folks that liked to hunt everything from varmints to giant cave bears.
The law in Blogistan only allowed persons to own rifles in one whole increment of a millimeter. So the only cartridges available was a 5mm, 6mm, a 7mm, a 8mm, a 9mm and a 10 mm for the largest of the cave bears.
It was sufficient for everyone and everyone got along fine.....until one day some mean little bloggistanner discovered how to make his own barrels and dies.
He had heard the banter and ribbing that went around the campfire every year around mammoth camp between the 8mm folks and the 9mm folks and he went to work making a 8.5mm stanner.
Well all billy hell broke out when the word got around that Mr. Chinwester was showing up in mammoth camp this year with his 8.5mm stanner. It obviously had the flat trajectory of an 8mm and the smashing power of the 9mm and everyone immediately wanted one.....(having never tried one)
Chinwester was selling barrels left and right and became famous and very wealthy. He hired people to work in his factory who then learned how to make barrels and went on their own because they too wanted to be wealthy and famous.....as a result there was soon an 8.25mm and a 8.75mm and even an 8.25mm CI....(chinwester improved)..... As time went on, the proliferation of cartridges was so complete that there was a cartridge in every increment of .1mm and variants of length as some stanners now wanted a short block and a long block cartridge. (bolt actions hadn't been invented yet)
Sure enough, as time evolved, there was now three hundred different cartridges to choose from.......and guess what.....things didn't change one IOTA.....they still went to mammoth camp and argued and bantered between their 8.015 Stanner and their 8.016 stanner! Some even suggested that it would be great if they could get a 8.0155 stanner....the best of both worlds.....
As it turned out....they argued and bantered and conjoled so long that they forgot to go hunting for mannoths and went the winter without meat.....and all the blogistans starved to death.
And now the moral of the story..... sooner or later we just grab a gun and go hunting and quit picking the fly [bleep] out of the pepper!
And now the moral of the story..... sooner or later we just grab a gun and go hunting and quit picking the fly [bleep] out of the pepper!
What I find entertaining about the elk cartridge discussions is that we seem inclined to ignore the evidence that is right in front of our eyes.....we can see an elk killed very dead (or shoot it ourselves) with a 270,7/08,7RM,or 30/06 etc.,watch it die,and do this year after year,and lie awake nights pondering whether a 300 or 338 (or something bigger) would have killed it "better"...
So we go get something bigger,kill some more elk (which continue to die pretty much the same way),and if the elk take a few more steps when killed with the bigger stuff, we think nothing of it,smug in our view(notion) that the bigger rifle is "better"....passing off the reports of the guy who floored several with a 7x57 or 7 mag as "flukes".....
Another thing I've noticed we do is ignore all empirical data and information from the past,like it doesn't exist; the New Dawn of ballistic revelation and terminal effectivness resides with us! ...
We set aside from our minds the fact that things like the 30/06 and 270 have been killing elk sized critters for about 80-100 years,ignoring the experience of tens of thousands who came before us and killed elk by the truckloads......I suppose this is typical human arrogance that says ..."if it ain't invented here, it doesn't exist..."
You would think,over 100 years into the smokeless powder era, we'd have gotten over this stuff by now.
I doubt it's possible for anyone on here to kill enough elk in their lifetime with (say) a 300 mag, 338 win mag,and a 7RM (just as examples)to say for a certainty that one is significantly more lethal than another,given equally good bullets and proper placement.And I'm not talking 30,40-50 elk...I'm talking thousands).
I've seen elk hit around the fringes with all three and the only conclusion I came to was that the magical qualities of the larger cartridges in providing "insurance"(which I assume means the bigger cartridges help you recover the elk better with marginal hits).....was absent.
I have noticed that all three provide very fast kills from chest/shoulder hits.
But I'm not surprised by any of this.....because people have been doing exactly the same things with these cartridges(and others that are similar) for generations.
If I were a young,aspiring elk hunter today, I would worry little about the cartridges and worry more about getting to go elk hunting.....
I would imagine that during the past 100 years more Elk have been killed with the 30-06 than all other cartridges combined.
Problem is that the 30-06 is a 'boring cartridge', and there really isn't anything new for gun rags to say about it that hasn't already been said.
It's much more exciting to talk about the latest release of short magnums, long magnums, or whatever cartridges.
Even so, the old 30-06 will take it's place quietly in the background and continue to do any excellent job of taking any and all big game in North America, just like it always has.
... If I were a young,aspiring elk hunter today, I would worry little about the cartridges and worry more about getting to go elk hunting.....
When Daughter #2 got married I gave my new son-in-law a .30-06 for a wedding present. He hunted elk with it for two years with no success.
His Dad told him the .30-06 wasn't enough gun, so last year, 2010, he hunted with a customized '03-A3 in .300 Win Mag that had been passed down from his grandfather. On day one of his hunt he took his first elk, dropping it straight down on the shot. (363 lasered yards with a 180g Winchester white-box Power Point)
Now Bob - how can you argue with empriical evidence like that - two years and no success with the .30-06, but one day with the .300 Win Mag and he had an elk on the ground. Clearly the .300 WM is a better choice for elk!
I am enjoying the 325 WSM. It's a very well balanced cartridge with a nice blend of bullet weight, velocity and recoil. Lots of great 8mm bullets and enough different to be interesting too. Usable in a light rifle, unlike some higher capacity rounds.
Once upon a time in the little country of Blogistan there was a lot of folks that liked to hunt everything from varmints to giant cave bears.
The law in Blogistan only allowed persons to own rifles in one whole increment of a millimeter. So the only cartridges available was a 5mm, 6mm, a 7mm, a 8mm, a 9mm and a 10 mm for the largest of the cave bears.
It was sufficient for everyone and everyone got along fine.....until one day some mean little bloggistanner discovered how to make his own barrels and dies.
He had heard the banter and ribbing that went around the campfire every year around mammoth camp between the 8mm folks and the 9mm folks and he went to work making a 8.5mm stanner.
Well all billy hell broke out when the word got around that Mr. Chinwester was showing up in mammoth camp this year with his 8.5mm stanner. It obviously had the flat trajectory of an 8mm and the smashing power of the 9mm and everyone immediately wanted one.....(having never tried one)
Chinwester was selling barrels left and right and became famous and very wealthy. He hired people to work in his factory who then learned how to make barrels and went on their own because they too wanted to be wealthy and famous.....as a result there was soon an 8.25mm and a 8.75mm and even an 8.25mm CI....(chinwester improved)..... As time went on, the proliferation of cartridges was so complete that there was a cartridge in every increment of .1mm and variants of length as some stanners now wanted a short block and a long block cartridge. (bolt actions hadn't been invented yet)
Sure enough, as time evolved, there was now three hundred different cartridges to choose from.......and guess what.....things didn't change one IOTA.....they still went to mammoth camp and argued and bantered between their 8.015 Stanner and their 8.016 stanner! Some even suggested that it would be great if they could get a 8.0155 stanner....the best of both worlds.....
As it turned out....they argued and bantered and conjoled so long that they forgot to go hunting for mannoths and went the winter without meat.....and all the blogistans starved to death.
And now the moral of the story..... sooner or later we just grab a gun and go hunting and quit picking the fly [bleep] out of the pepper!
Once upon a time in the little country of Blogistan there was a lot of folks that liked to hunt everything from varmints to giant cave bears.
The law in Blogistan only allowed persons to own rifles in one whole increment of a millimeter. So the only cartridges available was a 5mm, 6mm, a 7mm, a 8mm, a 9mm and a 10 mm for the largest of the cave bears.
It was sufficient for everyone and everyone got along fine.....until one day some mean little bloggistanner discovered how to make his own barrels and dies.
He had heard the banter and ribbing that went around the campfire every year around mammoth camp between the 8mm folks and the 9mm folks and he went to work making a 8.5mm stanner.
Well all billy hell broke out when the word got around that Mr. Chinwester was showing up in mammoth camp this year with his 8.5mm stanner. It obviously had the flat trajectory of an 8mm and the smashing power of the 9mm and everyone immediately wanted one.....(having never tried one)
Chinwester was selling barrels left and right and became famous and very wealthy. He hired people to work in his factory who then learned how to make barrels and went on their own because they too wanted to be wealthy and famous.....as a result there was soon an 8.25mm and a 8.75mm and even an 8.25mm CI....(chinwester improved)..... As time went on, the proliferation of cartridges was so complete that there was a cartridge in every increment of .1mm and variants of length as some stanners now wanted a short block and a long block cartridge. (bolt actions hadn't been invented yet)
Sure enough, as time evolved, there was now three hundred different cartridges to choose from.......and guess what.....things didn't change one IOTA.....they still went to mammoth camp and argued and bantered between their 8.015 Stanner and their 8.016 stanner! Some even suggested that it would be great if they could get a 8.0155 stanner....the best of both worlds.....
As it turned out....they argued and bantered and conjoled so long that they forgot to go hunting for mannoths and went the winter without meat.....and all the blogistans starved to death.
And now the moral of the story..... sooner or later we just grab a gun and go hunting and quit picking the fly [bleep] out of the pepper!
I talked to Cooper yesterday. They have introduced their Model 56 at the shot show, available this summer. Now you can get what ever magnum version of the Best Elk Cartridge in the World you like in the Best Factory Rifle in the World. I have already spoken with a dealer to get the Absolute Best Elk Cartridge in the World, the 7mm Rem. Mag. in an Excalibur. Let the fun begin...
I talked to Cooper yesterday. They have introduced their Model 56 at the shot show, available this summer. Now you can get what ever magnum version of the Best Elk Cartridge in the World you like in the Best Factory Rifle in the World. I have already spoken with a dealer to get the Absolute Best Elk Cartridge in the World, the 7mm Rem. Mag. in an Excalibur. Let the fun begin...
Love the 7mm Rem Mag but not so hot on the Cooper. I do suspect you will kill many big bulls with it though.
I've got 3 Coopers and they all exceed the 1/2" accuracy guarantee. Except for a broken extractor on my .22 lr, which was quickly fixed, they have worked flawlessly. I've been very happy with them. I know you build rifles, and from all appearances they appear to be fine and accurate rifles. I've had 5 custom rifles. Two were extremely accurate, as represented. One was a 3/4" rifle which was okay for it's intended use, elk, the other two would not shoot an inch no matter the load or components combination. None of the makers would guarantee accuracy, and the two that I couldn't get to shoot, all the builders would say is it must be you because my guns shoot. I sent one back and it came back looking like an apprentice had worked it over. Enough bad luck. The Coopers have treated me right, and I don't give a damn about Dan Coopers political leanings. He's gone.
That's what it is all about,Cobrad..If it ain't broke don't fix it..What has worked for some of us just isn't in with the new crowd of hunters and the new whiz bang mags.
Just the basics work for me and when Hunting or a caliber get's boring to me,I'll quit hunting all together and save tons of Bucks..
Black Powder..Yikes..I can't hardly get 3 bullets down the barrel of my .50 Thompson without sticking one with regular BP..But that old .50 Thompson is one of the best handles for my Handy Man jack I have ever used,not that I'm short on patients in anyway.
Yup..That Buffalo Classic sure has my attention though..
Oh I don't know, if a person thinks smokeless powder is the thing to do a garden variety 95 winchester in 405 is a handy lil bugger But if your thinking bp a 500 gr paper patched 45 caliber paper patched bullet gives a pretty spectacular kill shot
heheh, don't tell that poor lilrag horn that. He was just wandering along minding his own business when all of a sudden wahp, one of those things caught him on a bit of a quartering angle at 200 yds, folded his legs in mid air and dropped him like a bag of sand...
I've killed exactly two elk, one with a 30.06 with 165 gr Nosler Partition and one with a 300 Win Mag with 180 gr Nosler Partition. The next time I go, I will take my 30.06. The older I get the more I like my 30.06.
heheh, don't tell that poor lilrag horn that. He was just wandering along minding his own business when all of a sudden wahp, one of those things caught him on a bit of a quartering angle at 200 yds, folded his legs in mid air and dropped him like a bag of sand...
Naw....The energy/SD and velocity was just not there...
Yeh stupid me.... I keep forgetting that a 454 handgun is powerful enough for anything anywhere, but a 45-70 rifle with 300 gr factory loads is barely pika adequate.
Yeh stupid me.... I keep forgetting that a 454 handgun is powerful enough for anything anywhere, but a 45-70 rifle with 300 gr factory loads is barely pika adequate.
Funny how that works.
None of the rifles below are any damn good for elk - stunts all.
I've killed exactly two elk, one with a 30.06 with 165 gr Nosler Partition and one with a 300 Win Mag with 180 gr Nosler Partition. The next time I go, I will take my 30.06. The older I get the more I like my 30.06.
Did I already say 338 win mag?? That's my vote. Although Tonk is absolutely correct, I've taken the 300 win mag out, loaded with the 200 gr. partitions at around 2900 fps and didn't feel undergunned at all
As I was puttin' the wood to a steel plate just over 600 yards away the other day with my .338, I was reminded again just how much I love the Mighty .338 Winchester Magnum. All hail!
If you can shoot it, it's awfully hard to argue against it though some misguided ignorant inbred ingrates will try.
For the recoil senthitive, I like Kimberman's suggestion and in fact am going over to the 7mm mag dark side soon enough. Damn you, Bob and Dober!
I would and have hunted elk with 7mm-08 on up, but the Greatest Elk Cartridge in the World is the .338 Win Mag.
As I was puttin' the wood to a steel plate just over 600 yards away the other day with my .338, I was reminded again just how much I love the Mighty .338 Winchester Magnum. All hail!
If you can shoot it, it's awfully hard to argue against it though some misguided ignorant inbred ingrates will try.
For the recoil senthitive, I like Kimberman's suggestion and in fact am going over to the 7mm mag dark side soon enough. Damn you, Bob and Dober!
I would and have hunted elk with 7mm-08 on up, but the Greatest Elk Cartridge in the World is the .338 Win Mag.
So there.
I think the 7mm Remington and .338 Winchester are two of the finest cartridges as a pair, that could be owned. There is enough overlapp and the .338 is a caliber that is growing out of all proportion in terms of the bullets that are still being introduced with an example being the Barnes Long Range Series 265gn TSX's which would cover the heaviest game in the US under any circumstances and still shoot flat for elk hunting in the mountains.
The .338 has really blossomed as a hunting cartridge and the 7mm Remington I believe, is being rediscoverd due to its shootability and adequate power for all but the largest bears.
As I was puttin' the wood to a steel plate just over 600 yards away the other day with my .338, I was reminded again just how much I love the Mighty .338 Winchester Magnum. All hail!
If you can shoot it, it's awfully hard to argue against it though some misguided ignorant inbred ingrates will try.
For the recoil senthitive, I like Kimberman's suggestion and in fact am going over to the 7mm mag dark side soon enough. Damn you, Bob and Dober!
I would and have hunted elk with 7mm-08 on up, but the Greatest Elk Cartridge in the World is the .338 Win Mag.
So there.
I think the 7mm Remington and .338 Winchester are two of the finest cartridges as a pair, that could be owned. There is enough overlapp and the .338 is a caliber that is growing out of all proportion in terms of the bullets that are still being introduced with an example being the Barnes Long Range Series 265gn TSX's which would cover the heaviest game in the US under any circumstances and still shoot flat for elk hunting in the mountains.
The .338 has really blossomed as a hunting cartridge and the 7mm Remington I believe, is being rediscoverd due to its shootability and adequate power for all but the largest bears.
John
Any info on the new LRX? Very interested in the 200 30 cal and 265 338..As to BC, bearing surface,length, Grooves?
John-any chance you've worked with the 265 TSX yet? I'd love to try some in my .340.
Dober
Mark, Not yet. Samples just arrived. There was also a 255gn TSX and a 285gn TTSX released last year and the new 265gn "Long Range" version is "Tipped", so I have a Typo with the original post as it should read TTSX.
We are spoiled rotten as a generation as even we, never had it so good.
As I was puttin' the wood to a steel plate just over 600 yards away the other day with my .338, I was reminded again just how much I love the Mighty .338 Winchester Magnum. All hail!
If you can shoot it, it's awfully hard to argue against it though some misguided ignorant inbred ingrates will try.
For the recoil senthitive, I like Kimberman's suggestion and in fact am going over to the 7mm mag dark side soon enough. Damn you, Bob and Dober!
I would and have hunted elk with 7mm-08 on up, but the Greatest Elk Cartridge in the World is the .338 Win Mag.
So there.
I think the 7mm Remington and .338 Winchester are two of the finest cartridges as a pair, that could be owned. There is enough overlapp and the .338 is a caliber that is growing out of all proportion in terms of the bullets that are still being introduced with an example being the Barnes Long Range Series 265gn TSX's which would cover the heaviest game in the US under any circumstances and still shoot flat for elk hunting in the mountains.
The .338 has really blossomed as a hunting cartridge and the 7mm Remington I believe, is being rediscoverd due to its shootability and adequate power for all but the largest bears.
John
Any info on the new LRX? Very interested in the 200 30 cal and 265 338..As to BC, bearing surface,length, Grooves?
Rosco, Still waiting for samples of the other Long Range versions.
I think the 7mm Remington and .338 Winchester are two of the finest cartridges as a pair, that could be owned.
The .338 has really blossomed as a hunting cartridge and the 7mm Remington I believe, is being rediscoverd due to its shootability and adequate power for all but the largest bears.
I would cation use of the heavy .338 bullets on elk. The 210 ttsx goes all the way through and I would hate to risk over penetrating on an animal like an elk. I wouldnt risk it Just Sayin!!
I have used both the 225 and the 250 grain bullet in my .338 Win mag model 70 on bull elk! I have never had any problems busting both shoulders of a bull with either of these bullet weights in premium bullets. Now 50% of the time the bullet is found under the skin on the far side, unless your shooting under 100 yards, then you will get an exit which is no big deal.
SAY YOU WANTED to hunt with just one big-game rifle. Have it become an extension of your own body. Know it like the smell of your Dad's wool coat. Say you wanted it in a caliber flat enough to poke coyotes at long distance but powerful enough to make a bull elk take notice at the far end of a cross-canyon shot. Say you wanted it all in one package so you could always count on that one rifle to get the job done. Sound like a pipe dream?
The do-it-all rifle is not a myth, as many a seasoned rifleman knows. In fact, while the gunrags do a healthy business recommending good calibers for this, and best bullet for that, it's a fact that when flying lead doesn't have the intended results, it's the man behind the rifle that's almost certainly to blame. Show me a man who blames a miss on his rifle, and I'll show you a rifleman in need of polish, which leads to the primary reason behind choosing one good rifle -- polished skills.
Of course, the best way to polish skills is by shooting your chosen Betsy often and from real-life shooting positions. A rifle that feels right and doesn't kick like a mule goes a long way toward promoting regular practice. So does reloading for it, which will promote accuracy and increased familiarity.
It goes without saying that a one-rifle battery should be as accurate as possible. In practical terms, however, a 2-MOA rifle is plenty good enough for most big-game hunting. Latch onto a rifle that consistently shoots 1 MOA, and you'll regret the day you part with it. Any big-game rifle more precise than that should be considered an heirloom.
What really gets interesting, however, is deciding on a caliber. Ask five seasoned riflemen for their top choice, and you can expect five different opinions, all vehement, all well reasoned.
The .30-06 is the perennial all-mention, and rightly so; there's no rust on the classic. The .270 Winchester, aside from being a hell of a caliber, was Jack O'Connor's darling (though he admitted the ought-six probably was better) and therefore commands a prodigious following. The .338 Winchester Magnum was a favorite of Elmer Keith and is a superb choice for the steel-shouldered. The 7mm Remington Magnum does a whole lot with class.
Lots of others, most notably the .308 Winchester and the .280 Remington as well as various Weatherby Magnums and a slew of wildcats, can and do fit the bill. But the .300 Winchester Magnum -- the .300 Win. Mag. just might be the best of all! Except for the big brownies, which rate their own .375 H&H Magnum to many minds, the North-American hunter with a good .300 Winny has all the rifle he will ever need. And then some.
So, why not the .30-06? Why not, indeed. The good ol' ought-six is still a top choice. From 'chucks to elk, it is a serious caliber for the serious hunter, no question about it.
There is one area, however, where the ought-six gives up some ground, and that's when it comes to pushing heavy bullets -- the kind you want when big, tough critters like elk and moose are on the program. Yes, the classic .30-06 load pushing a 180-grain pill at 2700-2800 ft/sec will do almost anything you need, but throw in a big bull elk across a wide canyon at dusk, and the Winny gets the nod. Consider that at 400 yards, the Winny's 3100 ft/sec with the same 180-grainer gets you 450 ft/lbs more terminal energy and five inches less drop.
If that weren't telling enough, jump up to the 200-grain rock ,and by today's mega-magnum standards the 2550 ft/sec generated by a .30-06 case can be considered positively lethargic, although for close work in heavy timber, the combination is hard to beat.
By contrast, the Winny pushes the 200-grainer to a speedy 2950 ft/sec with careful reloads. At 400 yards, this translates into almost 700 ft/lbs more terminal energy and a trajectory flattened by 7 inches. That is the kind of difference that makes a difference on tough game.
Bottom line: While the .30-06 still may be the finest all-around caliber, it says here that if elk are in your plans (and elk are increasingly in everyone's plans) the .300 Winchester might be a better choice.
The same analysis applies to the .270 Winchester. By all accounts a hell of a sheep and deer caliber, throw elk into the equation and the .270 becomes marginal. Sure, there are elk hunters who shoot their bull with a .270 every year, but they are the exception. Most of the savvy elk crowd considers the .270 either too small or the absolute bare minimum for wapiti.
Suffice it to say that, at 400 yards, the .270 shooting 130 spitzers and the .300 Win. Mag. shooting 200-grain spitzers have virtually identical trajectories. The difference is that the .270 arrives carrying roughly 1300 ft/lbs of energy (below the 1500 ft/lbs often cited as a minimum for elk) while the Winny will deliver over a ton of energy, almost 2300 ft/lbs What the great .270 is to deer and sheep, the .300 Winny is to elk. Bad medicine.
As to the 7mm Remington Magnum, this fine caliber is often considered to be the ought-six's ballistic clone. The 7-Rem's small advantages in sectional density are offset by the .30-06's increased frontal area. The ought-six has an advantage in that more and heavier bullets are readily available, especially for the handloader, but basically, in the field you could choose one or the other and never notice the difference. So as versatile, accurate, and popular as this .284 is, the .30-06 retains an edge, and the .300 WinMag outclasses them both.
The .338 Winchester Magnum is another thing altogether. By all accounts a large caliber by North-American standards, it has been said that true recoil starts at the .338. A seasoned rifleman who practices regularly certainly should have no trouble handling the .338, but for many casual shooters, the .338 is simply too much rifle to shoot regularly or accurately.
It is noteworthy, however, that in terms of the wide spectrum of game animals available in North America, the .338 is probably the most well centered. A fair choice for the big brown bears (though a .375 H&H is superior for this work by an order of magnitude), the .338 is rightly considered by many as the preeminent elk caliber, while still being plenty flat enough for whitetails, antelope, and even coyotes. Take the big bears out of the equation, however, which they are for the vast majority of hunters, and the .338 becomes a too large shoulder pounder for most weekend warriors, though still optimal for dedicated wapiti chasers. Let face it. You don't need a .338 for any whitetail walking the earth.
By contrast, the beauty of the .300 WinMag is that it is so well suited to the typical range of hunting experiences to be had in North America.
After plains game? 180-grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 ft/sec equal bad mule-deer medicine and devastating performance on pronghorns. The same load is a ringer in "beanfield" situations. Elk and moose in your plans? Load 200-grain Partitions or A-Frames at 2900 ft/sec, and be assured that you have the right gun! Feel like practicing on coyotes or chucks? Scream some 165-grain boattails at 3250 ft/sec, and worry about your end of the rifle.
Like with all calibers, there are situations where a different caliber would be ideal, but for all-around versatility, flat trajectory, and high energy, the .300 Winchester Magnum shines, maybe like no other.
In the end, the choice of an all-around rifle depends on many factors. If you like a gun, you are much more likely to shoot it and shoot it well, so choose a rifle you like. Also, any experienced rifleman knows that where you hit 'em is much more important than what you hit 'em with, so place your emphasis on skills rather than on the size of the rock. But when all that is said and done, take a good hard look at the .300 Winchester.
Hey Guys: I have been enjoying this thread probably more than any other. It began 12-8-10 and has 49 pages w/482 posts. I have only entered your parlour 3 times because I haven't been PRIVILEGED to hunt elk YET. I am a seasoned deer hunter and an OLD handloader with a lot of experience with different guns & calibers.
Obviously MANY calibers have killed elk successfully. The smaller calibers are best used by the experienced hunters who know WHEN & WHERE to shoot and NOT to shoot. That applies to deer hunting calibers too.
I have enjoyed Jack Steel's treatise on the 300 WM both times it has been posted. I currently own my 5th 300 WM and it is my favorite 300 BECAUSE it's LIGHT and wonderfully accurate.
After following this thread and all the recommendations here it is MY OPINION that one is hard pressed to prove ANY caliber larger than 300 is needed. That's not to say I don't think they should be used, just that they are not needed. I'm one of the LUCKY few to own a Rem 700 8mmRM and am now convinced it's larger than NEEDED for elk. (it's NOT for sale anyway, it's the top end of my Rem. mm collection)
When 6.5s, 270s, 280s,EVEN 308s are considered plenty, why subject yourself to the weight and recoil of anything larger than a 300 mag. (Win,Wby,& Rum) NOTED our new, improved bullet selection has upgraded the smaller calibers.
Now y'all carry on, we need more threads like this one!! THANKS for letting me butt in.
SAY YOU WANTED to hunt with just one big-game rifle. Have it become an extension of your own body. Know it like the smell of your Dad's wool coat. Say you wanted it in a caliber flat enough to poke coyotes at long distance but powerful enough to make a bull elk take notice at the far end of a cross-canyon shot. Say you wanted it all in one package so you could always count on that one rifle to get the job done. Sound like a pipe dream?
The do-it-all rifle is not a myth, as many a seasoned rifleman knows. In fact, while the gunrags do a healthy business recommending good calibers for this, and best bullet for that, it's a fact that when flying lead doesn't have the intended results, it's the man behind the rifle that's almost certainly to blame. Show me a man who blames a miss on his rifle, and I'll show you a rifleman in need of polish, which leads to the primary reason behind choosing one good rifle -- polished skills.
Of course, the best way to polish skills is by shooting your chosen Betsy often and from real-life shooting positions. A rifle that feels right and doesn't kick like a mule goes a long way toward promoting regular practice. So does reloading for it, which will promote accuracy and increased familiarity.
It goes without saying that a one-rifle battery should be as accurate as possible. In practical terms, however, a 2-MOA rifle is plenty good enough for most big-game hunting. Latch onto a rifle that consistently shoots 1 MOA, and you'll regret the day you part with it. Any big-game rifle more precise than that should be considered an heirloom.
What really gets interesting, however, is deciding on a caliber. Ask five seasoned riflemen for their top choice, and you can expect five different opinions, all vehement, all well reasoned.
The .30-06 is the perennial all-mention, and rightly so; there's no rust on the classic. The .270 Winchester, aside from being a hell of a caliber, was Jack O'Connor's darling (though he admitted the ought-six probably was better) and therefore commands a prodigious following. The .338 Winchester Magnum was a favorite of Elmer Keith and is a superb choice for the steel-shouldered. The 7mm Remington Magnum does a whole lot with class.
Lots of others, most notably the .308 Winchester and the .280 Remington as well as various Weatherby Magnums and a slew of wildcats, can and do fit the bill. But the .300 Winchester Magnum -- the .300 Win. Mag. just might be the best of all! Except for the big brownies, which rate their own .375 H&H Magnum to many minds, the North-American hunter with a good .300 Winny has all the rifle he will ever need. And then some.
So, why not the .30-06? Why not, indeed. The good ol' ought-six is still a top choice. From 'chucks to elk, it is a serious caliber for the serious hunter, no question about it.
There is one area, however, where the ought-six gives up some ground, and that's when it comes to pushing heavy bullets -- the kind you want when big, tough critters like elk and moose are on the program. Yes, the classic .30-06 load pushing a 180-grain pill at 2700-2800 ft/sec will do almost anything you need, but throw in a big bull elk across a wide canyon at dusk, and the Winny gets the nod. Consider that at 400 yards, the Winny's 3100 ft/sec with the same 180-grainer gets you 450 ft/lbs more terminal energy and five inches less drop.
If that weren't telling enough, jump up to the 200-grain rock ,and by today's mega-magnum standards the 2550 ft/sec generated by a .30-06 case can be considered positively lethargic, although for close work in heavy timber, the combination is hard to beat.
By contrast, the Winny pushes the 200-grainer to a speedy 2950 ft/sec with careful reloads. At 400 yards, this translates into almost 700 ft/lbs more terminal energy and a trajectory flattened by 7 inches. That is the kind of difference that makes a difference on tough game.
Bottom line: While the .30-06 still may be the finest all-around caliber, it says here that if elk are in your plans (and elk are increasingly in everyone's plans) the .300 Winchester might be a better choice.
The same analysis applies to the .270 Winchester. By all accounts a hell of a sheep and deer caliber, throw elk into the equation and the .270 becomes marginal. Sure, there are elk hunters who shoot their bull with a .270 every year, but they are the exception. Most of the savvy elk crowd considers the .270 either too small or the absolute bare minimum for wapiti.
Suffice it to say that, at 400 yards, the .270 shooting 130 spitzers and the .300 Win. Mag. shooting 200-grain spitzers have virtually identical trajectories. The difference is that the .270 arrives carrying roughly 1300 ft/lbs of energy (below the 1500 ft/lbs often cited as a minimum for elk) while the Winny will deliver over a ton of energy, almost 2300 ft/lbs What the great .270 is to deer and sheep, the .300 Winny is to elk. Bad medicine.
As to the 7mm Remington Magnum, this fine caliber is often considered to be the ought-six's ballistic clone. The 7-Rem's small advantages in sectional density are offset by the .30-06's increased frontal area. The ought-six has an advantage in that more and heavier bullets are readily available, especially for the handloader, but basically, in the field you could choose one or the other and never notice the difference. So as versatile, accurate, and popular as this .284 is, the .30-06 retains an edge, and the .300 WinMag outclasses them both.
The .338 Winchester Magnum is another thing altogether. By all accounts a large caliber by North-American standards, it has been said that true recoil starts at the .338. A seasoned rifleman who practices regularly certainly should have no trouble handling the .338, but for many casual shooters, the .338 is simply too much rifle to shoot regularly or accurately.
It is noteworthy, however, that in terms of the wide spectrum of game animals available in North America, the .338 is probably the most well centered. A fair choice for the big brown bears (though a .375 H&H is superior for this work by an order of magnitude), the .338 is rightly considered by many as the preeminent elk caliber, while still being plenty flat enough for whitetails, antelope, and even coyotes. Take the big bears out of the equation, however, which they are for the vast majority of hunters, and the .338 becomes a too large shoulder pounder for most weekend warriors, though still optimal for dedicated wapiti chasers. Let face it. You don't need a .338 for any whitetail walking the earth.
By contrast, the beauty of the .300 WinMag is that it is so well suited to the typical range of hunting experiences to be had in North America.
After plains game? 180-grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 ft/sec equal bad mule-deer medicine and devastating performance on pronghorns. The same load is a ringer in "beanfield" situations. Elk and moose in your plans? Load 200-grain Partitions or A-Frames at 2900 ft/sec, and be assured that you have the right gun! Feel like practicing on coyotes or chucks? Scream some 165-grain boattails at 3250 ft/sec, and worry about your end of the rifle.
Like with all calibers, there are situations where a different caliber would be ideal, but for all-around versatility, flat trajectory, and high energy, the .300 Winchester Magnum shines, maybe like no other.
In the end, the choice of an all-around rifle depends on many factors. If you like a gun, you are much more likely to shoot it and shoot it well, so choose a rifle you like. Also, any experienced rifleman knows that where you hit 'em is much more important than what you hit 'em with, so place your emphasis on skills rather than on the size of the rock. But when all that is said and done, take a good hard look at the .300 Winchester.
Stuff kept jumping out at me when I read it, but he did that thing I hate when guys are comparing cartridges, where he picks a mild, low velocity for one but then a screaming, redline velocity for the other....
(200-gn bullet, 2550 fps for the 30-06 but 2950 fps for the 300 WM....)
My thought is a 338 Win. Mag loaded with 225gr. Woodleighs and 71.0 grs. of H4350, Win. Brass and a 215M primer. This combo has killed at short to long range if you do you part.
Stuff kept jumping out at me when I read it, but he did that thing I hate when guys are comparing cartridges, where he picks a mild, low velocity for one but then a screaming, redline velocity for the other....
(200-gn bullet, 2550 fps for the 30-06 but 2950 fps for the 300 WM....)
That's because just like elk killing, either work to do the job. Rifle gack is one thing... killings animals is another...
Yeah, but he was mis-stating the speeds to sway the argument falsely... I hate that.
In my .338 I like the 225-Accubond. My elk hunting buddy Jerry killed two elk with that bullet. It was impressive. My rifle loves them, and they've got a great BC so they stretch the .338's legs to a legit 600+ yards...
I'm sure most if not ALL hunting bullets will, shall we say, cleany take elk from a .338. I like how the 225-NAB performs both near and far. Getting them at the BiMart in my tiny rural town, doesn't suck either.
Well, looking at the hodgdon data... 200gr in 3006 tops at about 2400 and 300 mag at 2962... where's the beef.
A 165gr hornady interlock will kill an elk out of a 300 going 3100 at 620 yds, DRT, seen it.
My 338 killed 4 elk the first year I had it, 40 to 295 yds, 200gr factory winchester powerpoints... farthest went 40 yds dead on it's feet. That gun killed subsequent elk and deer the next seasons, including my nephew at 12 yrs old and his first cow elk. My brother loved the way it shot so much I gave it to him.
My 3006 has killed more elk than any other gun I have, the last three with a 165 TSX behind 57grs H4350 going 2830 cronied. All DRT, my wife killed her first elk with it.
I personally have only killed two elk with a gun, my first with the 3006 many moons ago, and my last on a leftover cow tag last year. Enrique here sold me a 99 in 308 and I reloaded some 150gr Hndy GMX seconds I got from Midway, 2600 fps, because I wanted to try the H4895 I was loading for 30-30 at the time. DRTed a cow early the first morning of the hunt, 175ish, I didn't range.
Oh, my SIL killed his first bull with my 270 and a factory 150 NP, just cause he was scared of bigger guns, one shot, it went 20 yds.
All my other elk kills have been archery, except the bull I killed with my truck going 50 mph... not sure how fast that is in fps but I had plenty of energy and 0 penetration... though he bounced off my grill and windshield so hard it broke tines.
Anyway, there's not been one of the 60+ rifle kills I've been on that BC or a 338 made a difference over what was carried.
Kent
PS, I post this because it's in the elk hunting, therefore killing section... I leave the gun gack to the hunting rifle section, totally different relevance there.
50 pages.....no firm resolution,nor convincing eveidence on the "Perfect Elk Cartridge".....
Lots of opinions, though...
That is because there is no universal �best�. (As you already know... )
If I were to spec out one for myself:
1. Lightweight � about 5 pounds all up. 4 would be even better. Short barrel � about 20� max, with low report and flash. 2. Mild recoil - .30-30 level would be good. 3. .338�/225g or .375�/300g bullet at around 3200fps � or similar and/or faster 4. Synthetic stock with matte, dark stainless action and barrel. 5. Bughole accurate. 6. Comes with a winning lottery ticket...
Well, looking at the hodgdon data... 200gr in 3006 tops at about 2400 and 300 mag at 2962... where's the beef.
A 165gr hornady interlock will kill an elk out of a 300 going 3100 at 620 yds, DRT, seen it.
My 338 killed 4 elk the first year I had it, 40 to 295 yds, 200gr factory winchester powerpoints... farthest went 40 yds dead on it's feet. That gun killed subsequent elk and deer the next seasons, including my nephew at 12 yrs old and his first cow elk. My brother loved the way it shot so much I gave it to him.
My 3006 has killed more elk than any other gun I have, the last three with a 165 TSX behind 57grs H4350 going 2830 cronied. All DRT, my wife killed her first elk with it.
I personally have only killed two elk with a gun, my first with the 3006 many moons ago, and my last on a leftover cow tag last year. Enrique here sold me a 99 in 308 and I reloaded some 150gr Hndy GMX seconds I got from Midway, 2600 fps, because I wanted to try the H4895 I was loading for 30-30 at the time. DRTed a cow early the first morning of the hunt, 175ish, I didn't range.
Oh, my SIL killed his first bull with my 270 and a factory 150 NP, just cause he was scared of bigger guns, one shot, it went 20 yds.
All my other elk kills have been archery, except the bull I killed with my truck going 50 mph... not sure how fast that is in fps but I had plenty of energy and 0 penetration... though he bounced off my grill and windshield so hard it broke tines.
Anyway, there's not been one of the 60+ rifle kills I've been on that BC or a 338 made a difference over what was carried.
Kent
PS, I post this because it's in the elk hunting, therefore killing section... I leave the gun gack to the hunting rifle section, totally different relevance there.
Kent, that makes total sense. Thanks for sharing. I'm generally a 30-06 fan myself (have hunted with one since I was 12 and it was a heavy ass sporterized m1917). I'm going to sound like I give in to peer pressure here, but I've been in groups where they look at you funny when you show up with a 30-06. Most guys here in my part of Oregon use the trusty old 338 win mag, so that is what I find myself using now. I actually felt sorry for one guy last year because he felt so "undergunned" with his 308 that he didn't even go hunting. My boss/friend uses a 338 and I hunt with him about 1/2 the time and he's bad about pushing the 338 in his elk camp. If I can ever get my 308 win's to shoot, I wouldn't mind taking one of those this year. I'm planning on going on a cow hunt where I won't be pulling the trigger but helping a good friend out with recovery (he'll help me next year ) and I'll go on my usual over the counter general season bull hunt. Has anyone else ran into this type of scenerio with cartridge pushing in "ELK" camp or should that be a whole other thread???
... I've been in groups where they look at you funny when you show up with a 30-06. Most guys here in my part of Oregon use the trusty old 338 win mag, so that is what I find myself using now. I actually felt sorry for one guy last year because he felt so "undergunned" with his 308 that he didn't even go hunting. ...
My son-in-laws father told him a .30-06 was �inadequate� for elk. The last three I�ve taken didn�t know that.
Undergunned with a .308 Win. Hardly.
Nothing wrong with a .338, though. Would love to have one.
Well, looking at the hodgdon data... 200gr in 3006 tops at about 2400 and 300 mag at 2962... where's the beef.
A 165gr hornady interlock will kill an elk out of a 300 going 3100 at 620 yds, DRT, seen it.
My 338 killed 4 elk the first year I had it, 40 to 295 yds, 200gr factory winchester powerpoints... farthest went 40 yds dead on it's feet. That gun killed subsequent elk and deer the next seasons, including my nephew at 12 yrs old and his first cow elk. My brother loved the way it shot so much I gave it to him.
My 3006 has killed more elk than any other gun I have, the last three with a 165 TSX behind 57grs H4350 going 2830 cronied. All DRT, my wife killed her first elk with it.
I personally have only killed two elk with a gun, my first with the 3006 many moons ago, and my last on a leftover cow tag last year. Enrique here sold me a 99 in 308 and I reloaded some 150gr Hndy GMX seconds I got from Midway, 2600 fps, because I wanted to try the H4895 I was loading for 30-30 at the time. DRTed a cow early the first morning of the hunt, 175ish, I didn't range.
Oh, my SIL killed his first bull with my 270 and a factory 150 NP, just cause he was scared of bigger guns, one shot, it went 20 yds.
All my other elk kills have been archery, except the bull I killed with my truck going 50 mph... not sure how fast that is in fps but I had plenty of energy and 0 penetration... though he bounced off my grill and windshield so hard it broke tines.
Anyway, there's not been one of the 60+ rifle kills I've been on that BC or a 338 made a difference over what was carried.
Kent
PS, I post this because it's in the elk hunting, therefore killing section... I leave the gun gack to the hunting rifle section, totally different relevance there.
Kent, that makes total sense. Thanks for sharing. I'm generally a 30-06 fan myself (have hunted with one since I was 12 and it was a heavy ass sporterized m1917). I'm going to sound like I give in to peer pressure here, but I've been in groups where they look at you funny when you show up with a 30-06. Most guys here in my part of Oregon use the trusty old 338 win mag, so that is what I find myself using now. I actually felt sorry for one guy last year because he felt so "undergunned" with his 308 that he didn't even go hunting. My boss/friend uses a 338 and I hunt with him about 1/2 the time and he's bad about pushing the 338 in his elk camp. If I can ever get my 308 win's to shoot, I wouldn't mind taking one of those this year. I'm planning on going on a cow hunt where I won't be pulling the trigger but helping a good friend out with recovery (he'll help me next year ) and I'll go on my usual over the counter general season bull hunt. Has anyone else ran into this type of scenerio with cartridge pushing in "ELK" camp or should that be a whole other thread???
BSA, oh hell yeah! In the camp I hunt with 30-06 is seen as being on the light side. It's what I showed up with my first few years up there with those guys (180-gn NPT @ 2800 fps) so I got to hear plenty of "just don't expect...." and "it'll kill them but..." !
We hunt with one guy, Paul, who really went on tear there, killing I believe 4 elk in 5-6 years with a 30-06. He was the main source of the '06 dissing, he shot a couple more than once and actually lost one that was reasonably well-hit (found it a couple days later).
He "upgraded" to 300 WSM, which to him is a laser-flat death ray in comparison!
At any rate a hearty plus-one on the notion that .338 holds a special place in Oregon elk camps. And honestly, it deserves it. Damn fine elk cartridge.
I have a .308/elk story. Ran into a kid, maybe 18-20 years old, several miles deep in the John Day wilderness. It had been snowing, there was about 6-8" inches on the ground... he was tracking a spike elk he shot with his .308... He'd been tracking it through a couple drainages, at least a couple miles when we met. He had a strip of lung in his pocket about 6" long that had caught on a log the elk jumped over!
I ran into him the next day; the elk had joined in with a herd and he lost the trail. It snowed more that night and that was that. Anyway, those sorts of experiences tend to get told far and wide and I bet you dollars to donuts, that guy hasn't hunted elk with a .308 since then!
I've looked at the .264 for a few decades. The combination of speed, high BC, and enough bullet weight and SD make this a much more powerful elk killer than it is given credit for, IMO. Problem now is making the decision; .264 Win mag or 7mm Rem mag. I guess the 7 Remmy must still be the absolute, whiz-bang, anyone can shoot this light saber and kill 'em way over yonder elk shooting machine, that is versatile enough to shoot prairie dogs and marmots out around the half-mile mark, just to stay in practice. Either round will do all this without kicking your pants off so the regular Joe, like me, can become accurate with it. Is it settled yet?
I've looked at the .264 for a few decades. The combination of speed, high BC, and enough bullet weight and SD make this a much more powerful elk killer than it is given credit for, IMO. Problem now is making the decision; .264 Win mag or 7mm Rem mag. I guess the 7 Remmy must still be the absolute, whiz-bang, anyone can shoot this light saber and kill 'em way over yonder elk shooting machine, that is versatile enough to shoot prairie dogs and marmots out around the half-mile mark, just to stay in practice. Either round will do all this without kicking your pants off so the regular Joe, like me, can become accurate with it. Is it settled yet?
Either one should work for you. My daughters don�t mind the recoil of my 7mm RM, which is similar to a .30-06, and they are not particularly fond of recoil. Don�t know that I could hit a PD at half a mile, but yes, the 7mm RM is a very versatile cartridge. Mine has dumped more than a few PDs and coyotes while getting ready for big game season. I CAN hit clay pigeons at 600 yards with both the 7mm RM and 6.5-06AI, which is pretty close to the .264 Win Mag. (My daughters love to shoot that one, BTW.)
Pretty certain my 6.5-06AI with 130-140�s will make a dandy elk rifle. At 800 yards it is just a step behind my 7mm RM loads and those for the .264 win Mag.
50 pages.....no firm resolution,nor convincing eveidence on the "Perfect Elk Cartridge".....
Lots of opinions, though...
52 pages and counting....still no firm conclusion.
Might be a lesson here....elk just ain't that hard to kill.
But in the interest of further research,if someone will stroke a check for the hunts, I'll be happy to go forth with a wide variety of cartridges and provide a definitive answer.....I'll even hit them badly just to see what cartridges work best with lousy shooting.
I will report back as well....
And while I'm at it, I'll hire a trained pathologist with a stop watch,so he can certify that the Berger-shot elk died the "fastest".....
Think we can drum up a Federal Grant for this one? Sounds reasonable to me....
Elk aren't all that hard to kill--and neither are all the supposedly super-tough African animals--if you hit them right.
I've puzzled over the super-tough reputation that some animals have for a while, and apparently what most (but by no means all) hunters mean when by tough is that the animal will go a long way when not hit right. And elk will certainly do that, along with gemsbok, blue wildebeest, zebra or even pronghorns or rutting whitetails.
Other animals just seem to stand there until they fall over, whether the falling over is immediate or takes a minute or so. Or they go off 100 yards and lie down. In Africa animals with this "softer" reputation include kudu and eland, and caribou have the same reputation in North America. Though any of them will still surprise you.
JB: From what I have seen, I agree with you....I have noticed that they get like truck tires when you hit them wrong,and the adrenalin is up....ask me how I know...
Hit properly, they have never given me a problem of any kind
Quite a few years ago I was guiding a guy and we rode up a draw to find elk scattered across the hill side above us, 100 yards away. They didn't even look up, so we got off the horses. I told him to wait, but the guy shot when I turned to tie up the horses. I looked back and saw a nice bull hit the ground and roll to a stop. He was out, or so it appeared. I turned back and had the horses tied in just a few seconds. When I looked again the elk was gone. Crap. I say "where's the elk?" Hunter says "he got up and walked into the timber" I says "What!!! why didn't you shoot again, didn't I tell you before to shoot until they quit moving!!!" Hunter says "oh he's hit hard, he's not going anywhere" I tracked him the rest of the day in the snow. Blood trail got smaller and smaller until it was gone. Late in the afternoon his tracks fell in with those of another small band and we followed them until, towards dark, they crossed a ridge and disappeared into another drainage far from where we started. Was he just under gunned? No, he was shooting a 7 mag. It was just a "marginal shot". (I can hear "he WAS undergunned, he was shooting a 7 mag" already ) Just goes to show even the Best Elk Cartridge In The World, the 7 mm mag, is only as good as the shooter.
My grandson shot one with a BB gun once.He was sitting in the brush with great-grandad looking for turkeys when a spike walked right in front of him. He raised his gun and popped that bull in the ribs. I guess the elk really tore out of there. They never did find that bull though. Guess he should have been shooting a magnum BB gun.
Around THIS Campfire, elk aren't tenacious or tough.
In the actual elk camps and around actual campfires talking to crusty old pharts who've been hunting and killing them a long time, I hear otherwise. And I know two very close to first-hand tales of elk tenacity.
Some critters are reputed to give up rather... resignedly. Caribou and moose come to mind. Elk appear (to me) to have a tendancy to really go the other way, and at least sometimes do some pretty superhuman <grin> things when hit pretty hard.
My two elk were both well-hit and went down quickly. Then again I had a whole millimeter on the wimpy 7mm guys!
I'll buy that about anything will kill an elk, but I won't buy that they are not, sometimes, a notably tenacious animal. And elk habitat being what it is, at least IME, a quarter-mile death dash can be veddy veddy bad.
So- hit 'em right, that's key. Hit 'em hard also seems desirable to me.
.338 Win Mag is the best Elk Cartridge in the World!
Around THIS Campfire, elk aren't tenacious or tough.
In the actual elk camps and around actual campfires talking to crusty old pharts who've been hunting and killing them a long time, I hear otherwise. And I know two very close to first-hand tales of elk tenacity.
Some critters are reputed to give up rather... resignedly. Caribou and moose come to mind. Elk appear (to me) to have a tendancy to really go the other way, and at least sometimes do some pretty superhuman <grin> things when hit pretty hard.
Jeff: For every crusty old phart you can dig up, I can dig up just as many who will disagree......many with 40-50 elk under their belt.....
I've even seen little old buck mule deer and whitetails act "tough",hit badly with 300's....And I mean....we never found one of the damn things after a chase over hill and dale............so, I believe "toughness" results from sloppy shooting....with anything.....
Mostly this "toughness" reputation comes from the type of boneheaded behaviour demonstrated by Cobrad's hunter;sloppy first shot,and "admiring results" after the fact.....a whitetail doe will get away under those circumstances.
The bull stepped into view at maybe 25 yards, quartering up the ridge, and I shot him carefully on the point of the on shoulder. The bullet smashed that shoulder, passed through the top of the heart and exited behind the off shoulder. Despite this terrible blow, there was no visible sign of a hit; the bull whirled and dashed out of sight. He died in the creek at the bottom of the ridge.
Around THIS Campfire, elk aren't tenacious or tough.
In the actual elk camps and around actual campfires talking to crusty old pharts who've been hunting and killing them a long time, I hear otherwise. And I know two very close to first-hand tales of elk tenacity.
Jeff, as I've been saying for years, if you hit an elk in the wrong place...or with a "weak" bullet...they can take a gruesome amount of punishment.
I don't find muleys particularly tough. I've witnessed a few that were not even close to being mortally wounded but act like they were.
I've killed a few moose, and witnessed a couple more, but they were all hit right with tough bullets and they died. Same for caribou.
The bull stepped into view at maybe 25 yards, quartering up the ridge, and I shot him carefully on the point of the on shoulder. The bullet smashed that shoulder, passed through the top of the heart and exited behind the off shoulder. Despite this terrible blow, there was no visible sign of a hit; the bull whirled and dashed out of sight. He died in the creek at the bottom of the ridge.
Jayco
Jayco: I see nothin unusual there.... seen similar stuff with everything from the 340 Weatherby on down...then, the next one will go buns up from a 270 and a chest hit..who can tell? That is just the nature of elk....
I don't fall into the camp, every Elk reacts the same to the same hit.Some Elk go down easy and others don't with the same hit..Like a man on Meth, compared to an Elk in Rut,not grazing or just lolly gagging around.
So I don't think there easy to kill,every time, with a good hit.Sometimes Yes and sometimes No.
I don't fall into the camp, every Elk reacts the same to the same hit.Some Elk go down easy and others don't with the same hit..Like a man on Meth, compared to an Elk in Rut,not grazing or just lolly gagging around.
So I don't think there easy to kill,every time, with a good hit.Sometimes Yes and sometimes No.
Jayco
Lil Logcutter ,
I have to disagree on this point. I have never seen a bull pack a good first hit very far. This assumes a relatively fast expanding bullet that was ,in my opinion, properly placed and the bull was not previously wounded.
Hit one wrong with the first one and they can become very hard to crunch.
I will say that a steep hillside can darn sure help them cover some ground going downhill and makes it seem like they traveled further.
First elk I ever killed, dad told my brother and I "What ever you do, don't go down in the hole below camp. Stay high." We left camp in the dark and went just far enough dad couldn't see us, then down we went. He had only congratulations when I shot a spike... until we wrestled that elk waaaay up a steep hill to camp. He made it clear DON'T DO THAT AGAIN! But by then we didn't want to shoot anything below us anyway. The next one we got was miles further away, but at least it was up, way up, a steep mountain. Easiest one, and also the biggest, I shot off my deck in my underwear... but that is a story for another thread.
We just barely survived, but managed! Good talking to you too.
I once raghorn bull across a small canyon in Colorado once that rolled quite a ways--and the canyon had a foot or more of fresh snow. Luckily, it was on a private ranch and we had chains for all four tires, as well as a winch. We needed them all before we got out of there, four hours later--but it was still a lot easier than the "normal" way....
I have never seen a bull pack a good first hit very far. This assumes a relatively fast expanding bullet that was ,in my opinion, properly placed and the bull was not previously wounded.
Hit one wrong with the first one and they can become very hard to crunch.
I will say that a steep hillside can darn sure help them cover some ground going downhill and makes it seem like they traveled further.
That mirrors my experience. Although I would say a deep penetrating bullet shot into the front half has never resulted in a elk race for me.
It won't contribute much to the discussion, but I have taken 30+ elk with a variety of cartridges and bullet weights ranging from the.270 Winchester with 150 Partitions to the .375 H&H with 270 AccuBonds (and several of the commonly available cartridges in between). A few bulls stood around long enough to get a second shot, but all would have been dead as a result of the first. Most have gone no farther than 50 yds or so. The two that did go farther were indeed going downhill and neither made more than 100 yds or so before expiring. (I heard both of them die and was able to walk right to them.)
Looks like a 300H&H AI.......aka....300 Weatherby sans radius......
There's really nothing new under the sun...
Hehe! I think you're close to being right Brad,as far as cartridges are concerned......if it fits within the confines of a bolt action rifle that can be carried easily by one guy and shot from the shoulder,it was pretty generally "all over" by 1965.........
Ain't been much new since then....just minor tuning....
Looks like a 300H&H AI.......aka....300 Weatherby sans radius......
There's really nothing new under the sun...
Hehe! I think you're close to being right Brad,as far as cartridges are concerned......if it fits within the confines of a bolt action rifle that can be carried easily by one guy and shot from the shoulder,it was pretty generally "all over" by 1965.........
Ain't been much new since then....just minor tuning....
That "minor turing" sure gets worked over here at the Campfire though, doesn't it! LOL!
.300 Wby Mag, Vanguard, 180 gr. Part. At 135 yds., first shot thru the lungs with extensive damage. Took off running, second shot in the spine, smashing around 6" and part of the back strap. Hind quarters dropped at spine shot. Still took some time for him to "give it up." Elk can be pretty tough; first shot was lethal and I'm sure he'd have gone down after a bit.
.300 Wby Mag, Vanguard, 180 gr. Part. At 135 yds., first shot thru the lungs with extensive damage. Took off running, second shot in the spine, smashing around 6" and part of the back strap. Hind quarters dropped at spine shot. Still took some time for him to "give it up." Elk can be pretty tough; first shot was lethal and I'm sure he'd have gone down after a bit.
DF
Congrats on a beautiful bull. Did you score him? If so what did he score. Looks like a real big boy to me.
- I would use a 225 grain Trophy Bonded. I sight it in 3.5" high at 100 yards.That is 3.5" low shot at a measured 300 yards.
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
-Range; First shot? Under excellent conditions I might go 400 yards if I got enough time to practice at that distance from field positions. Our range goes out to one thousand yards and I shoot that far occasionally. I seem to be able to hit targets at 600 yards with the .338 when I shoot that far.
-Angle; Depends too much on the conditions to say. The bullet I shoot is capble of doing any angle I might need. Of course, so is a 30-06 with any number of bullets, depending on what the rifle likes.
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
-Of the rifles I have used on elk the .338 would be my choice. An important hunt is not the time to change IMHO.
I don't think there is a best cartridge. One "best" might be a well set up .338 Lapua or .340 Weatherby. A .300 Weatherby using 200 grain bullets also seems to have a lot going for it from where I sit.
Unfortunately, the rifles, weight and barrel lengths [not counting the huge scopes some folks need don't fit my hunting style and preferences well.
I've either guided or shot most of the cartridges in this thread, and agree with much of what has been said.
If one of the guys I'm guiding shows up with a big mag, that is great, but I'm going to find out immediately if he can hit the broadside of a barn with it at 200 yards.
If not, he's getting one of my 30.06 that I know will shoot out to 300. And he won't get a longer shot.
As a matter of fact, even guys who seem to shoot well won't get a longer shot unless I know he can make the shot consistently. Most people just don't shoot enough to hit anything smaller than a five gallon bucket beyond 200 and when you add fatigue (especially after multiple days), excitement, shot angles (specifically gradients of more than 15 degrees), and movement, you have a whole plethora of varibles that makes shooting an elk problematic.
Elk are big targets and I've seen bad shots drop them and cows without lungs run forever in nasty country. Wild animals are interesting and just like no one rifle is the perfect caliber for everyone, no two elk respond the same (necessarily).
Personally, after shooting and looking at a lot of rifles over the years, I'm a big fan of my .300 Wby. I love that gun, but I love all my guns and a bunch that I don't even own yet.
.300 Wby Mag, Vanguard, 180 gr. Part. At 135 yds., first shot thru the lungs with extensive damage. Took off running, second shot in the spine, smashing around 6" and part of the back strap. Hind quarters dropped at spine shot. Still took some time for him to "give it up." Elk can be pretty tough; first shot was lethal and I'm sure he'd have gone down after a bit.
DF
DF that is a smokin' big bull.....congrats!Yes they can be sorta tough IMO,but I'm sure yours was dead on his feet.....thing I have noticed is that you can have the reaction you had, no matter what you shoot them with.
.300 Wby Mag, Vanguard, 180 gr. Part. At 135 yds., first shot thru the lungs with extensive damage. Took off running, second shot in the spine, smashing around 6" and part of the back strap. Hind quarters dropped at spine shot. Still took some time for him to "give it up." Elk can be pretty tough; first shot was lethal and I'm sure he'd have gone down after a bit.
that is a truly beautiful bull, a great heavy old boy !!! I have killed lots of elk but nothing of any size! Would like a 330 or so before I go !!! After 50 years of hunting the beastie I believe one of the big 30's is the way to go, with a 200 gr. Nosler PT going out the front end. Like several others here I have killed them with 06, 7mm mag, 338/06, 7mm STW and 300 Win mag. Most with the Win mag.
.300 Wby Mag, Vanguard, 180 gr. Part. At 135 yds., first shot thru the lungs with extensive damage. Took off running, second shot in the spine, smashing around 6" and part of the back strap. Hind quarters dropped at spine shot. Still took some time for him to "give it up." Elk can be pretty tough; first shot was lethal and I'm sure he'd have gone down after a bit.
Looks like a 300H&H AI.......aka....300 Weatherby sans radius......
There's really nothing new under the sun...
Hehe! I think you're close to being right Brad,as far as cartridges are concerned......if it fits within the confines of a bolt action rifle that can be carried easily by one guy and shot from the shoulder,it was pretty generally "all over" by 1965.........
Ain't been much new since then....just minor tuning....
I'd say there really hasn't been anything truly remarkable since 1919 (think Charles Newton).
I suppose the 222 was "new" in the truest sense however.
At the end of the day all cartridges are a variation on the same theme... a brass cylinder.
In 2009 my hunting buddy and I went to Saskatchewan elk hunting. I used the outfitters rifle, not wanting to bring mine thru customs. This was in Eastern Saskatchewan a two hour drive East of Saskatoon. Here's a photo of around 1,200 pounds of really good eating, hanging in the skinning shed which was much taller than our Louisiana skinning sheds...
It was cold. See the guy doing the skinning in short sleeves. He's a hockey player and taxidermist. He skinned and gutted the elk in about 30 min. He completely caped him out about as fast. Horns and cape were brought home on the plane for a local taxidermist to do the mount.
Well my standard has always been about nothing new since about 1965 or so, but perhaps even 1922 could be argued, but not won. My PO Ackley reloading manual has won me a lot of arguments about "new". I even won one not long ago regarding "short magnums" the newest hottest sensation to hit the market, "not". One of the first shorties was in 1965 with the Remington 350 along with the short stubby barrel.
Well my standard has always been about nothing new since about 1965 or so, but perhaps even 1922 could be argued, but not won. My PO Ackley reloading manual has won me a lot of arguments about "new". I even won one not long ago regarding "short magnums" the newest hottest sensation to hit the market, "not". One of the first shorties was in 1965 with the Remington 350 along with the short stubby barrel.
I discount the shorty belted cartridges... the parent was there all along since 1912. The 222 was actually something new case-wise in 1950 so that would be my line for anything truly new.
Here's some good reading on the genius of Chas Newton with time-lines...
So that I may win future discussions when and what was the first short magnum? I have drank several tall cold ones with that cartridge and date. I am thinking about 2.8 or so as being short. Newton didn't work with belted cases did he?
Mac-when did Ralph start making his version of the short maqs?
Dober
Ralph started with his short-mags in the late 50's/early 60's I believe Dober. I've talked with him about it at length and that's the date I've got stuck in my head anyway. Ralph did buy much of Roy Gradle's machinery out of his gun shop in S. California when he was getting out of the business in the 50's and Ralph's cats look a lot like the Gradle, including the Wby radius shoulder.
So that I may win future discussions when and what was the first short magnum? I have drank several tall cold ones with that cartridge and date. I am thinking about 2.8 or so as being short. Newton didn't work with belted cases did he?
Newton was the original Beltless-Magnum guy in the 19-teens. Amazing guy.
I believe Roy Gradle originated the short mag sometime in the 1950's, blowing out the 348 Win case and machining-off the rim.
But I've been wrong before
The WSM's are a "new" cartridge, but then again the basis for them has been around for over 100 years. Guess, to me, the little 222 was something truly "new" and unique and why I sort of stick with my 1950 date.
But it's all a matter of symantics I suppose, and I certainly wouldn't be dogmatic about any date.
Yep, I think it was in 1958 when that happened It's also hell on elk. Since we (campfire members) agree to disagree, I won't say it is the best elk cartridge anymore
And really it was not Winchester who was first with a short (made to fit 30/06 length actions)belted case......Roy Weatherby had the 270 and the 7mm in the 40's......PO Ackley had a 270 on a short mag in the 40's as well IIRC....somewhere in the 50's was the 7x61 S&H....IIRC.
And then there was the 276 Dubiel,and the 275H&H mag from the 30's,both of which were on the order of the 7 Rem Mag...
Brad I reality you are right in a sense the 350 wasn't ballistically new because Newton and Whelen had already stuffed a similar case with the 35 cal bullet and obtained the almost exact performance. I own both and much prefer the Whelen
Jeff I precieve the nomenclature of short as a .308 length action not an 06. They were putting magnum cartridges in 06 length actions in the 20's The 35 Newton predated both the Whelen and the 350. But neither could be considered "short"
Take that custom 30-8mm and build it on an improved case and you have the .300 Jarrett. I had one built in the mid 90's. Great round. I was pushing 200 gr. bullets at 3028 fps. That rifle was an elk killing machine.
http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5063898/1 Basically an AI, but probably a little different. It was done in either 52 or 53, and with a totally unique reamer. As far as I know, only 2 guns were ever chambered like this; My grandfathers and great-uncle's. This thing absolutely flings 150-180 grain boolits.
Originally Posted by cobrad
Tannergun, tell us a little about this Coulter magnum. I think i'm over wildcats, but they still interest me.
It don't make no never mind as my late brother in law would say! As long as you had that .338 Win mag caliber in your hands and there ain't nothin wrong with a good Ruger model 77 in that caliber you betcha. I thought it was further back but I guess yall got my message ok.
John Burns I suggest sir, that you compare the ballistics with the .270 Winchester and if you like, the .270 WSM too! I am sorry to crash your party but the 264mag was lost on the plains loooooong ago.
Actually there is a movement here in Wyoming to ban all .270 caliber cartridges because of too many instances of the bullet bouncing off of the elk and endangering the hunter and innocent bystanders.
I personally think the accounts are somewhat overblown but it is probably better to error on the side of safety.
Actually there is a movement here in Wyoming to ban all .270 caliber cartridges because of too many instances of the bullet bouncing off of the elk and endangering the hunter and innocent bystanders.
I personally think the accounts are somewhat overblown but it is probably better to error on the side of safety.
We need to let Bill know......before he gets hurt or somethin'
John will you be around Casper or out near the ranch area for a rock shoot this year?
From what I can gather from the spotty reports it really is pretty rare to get what is being termed �Catastrophic Bullet Rebound Syndrome� or CBRS.
The early reports of an actual outright ban on the .270 caliber cartridges will most likely not happen, although the Game and Fish might start recommending all hunters using such cartridge wear proper safety equipment.
I will buy you the best steak in Casper if you can get Bill to hunt with a grinding faceshield and hard hat.
I personally feel the .270 Winchester being used on bull elk is fine, provided that hunter can hit their mark and use a 150 grn or 160 Nosler Partition bullet or some other premium bullet. The problem is most can not hit their mark and want to shoot a bull at 400 yards with a cheap plain jane bullet. I do not question as to weather or not a .270 Winchester with a 150 grn bullet, will kill animals under 400 pounds with success but as body weight goes up, so does the chance of that caliber not being able to dispatch said game. Surely not as well as a .30-06 with a 180 grn bullet or the .300 Win mag or the .35-Whelen etc. Thus my feelings for using enough caliber on animals the size as bull elk. The .338 Win mag is no slouch in this department and still reins in my book as King for taking Mr. Wapiti!
I personally feel the .270 Winchester being used on bull elk is fine, provided that hunter can hit their mark and use a 150 grn or 160 Nosler Partition bullet or some other premium bullet.
I've seen enough elk killed with non-premium 270/130's to totally discount that. Just my experience...
I personally feel the .270 Winchester being used on bull elk is fine, provided that hunter can hit their mark and use a 150 grn or 160 Nosler Partition bullet or some other premium bullet. The problem is most can not hit their mark and want to shoot a bull at 400 yards with a cheap plain jane bullet. I do not question as to weather or not a .270 Winchester with a 150 grn bullet, will kill animals under 400 pounds with success but as body weight goes up, so does the chance of that caliber not being able to dispatch said game. Surely not as well as a .30-06 with a 180 grn bullet or the .300 Win mag or the .35-Whelen etc. Thus my feelings for using enough caliber on animals the size as bull elk. The .338 Win mag is no slouch in this department and still reins in my book as King for taking Mr. Wapiti!
If the .30-06 180 kills any better than the .270 150, I've not been able to tell. I love both cartridges and those are the weights I use.
Gentlemen, I do not question the ability of either the .270 Winchester caliber (one of my favorites by the way) nor the 30-06 which I no longer shoot. I do own several .270 Winchesters, one being a Texas made rifle called the Kliengunther. However, the .270 regardless of what Jack O'Conner killed with his, is NOT an elk caliber, even though many have killed elk.
I will never convince, those that are head strong about NOT using a premium bullet, when they truly believe it is a waste of money in the first place. I will say that anyone who hunts bull elk with a 130 plan jane bullet is not making a wise choice. I like larger bullets for any animals over 350 pounds in body weight. My very first lost animal (bull elk) was to a 130 grain cheap bullet that came apart and did not penetrate through the vitals. Then I discovered the 160 NOsler Partion and it worked far better you betcha.
I will stick to my guns concerning the .338Win mag and it's ability on elk with a 225 or 250 grain bullet! It works and damn well to boot, so those those who use a .270 Winchester and want to go the path of a cheap 130 grain bullet on a 900 pound animal, you hunters do as you wish, I hunt elk with my .338 caliber or larger. Those that doubt my words can perhaps pick up a little wisdom from a reloading manual called "Any Shot You Want" and become a better educated hunter.
The best elk cartridge is one that you can hit what your shooting at. I prefer a .270 win, my boy .270 wsm, a friend of mine, 300 wsm and another .257 wby and another 30.06. point is shoot what ya like as long as you can hit your target.
Friend of mine went on a premium elk hunt. Another hunter there had a 30-378 wby or a 338-378 wby, he wanted a big gun to take down his bull and too shoot a long ways away if need be. He missed a nice big bull after 5 shots because he couldn't hit what he was shooting at. Finally had to borrow a 300 wsm to get his bull.
However, the .270 regardless of what Jack O'Conner killed with his, is NOT an elk caliber, even though many have killed elk.
Like the seatbelt advertisement..... You can learn alot from a dummy. Is this sometin' you read on tha innanet, or real experience which I doubt you have.
Gun-Nut, great name I suppose your telling us something?
Let me put it this way to YOU Arky! The original .270 way back in 1922 was made for animals under 350 pounds......You do the research if you can. I'll continue to use what I know works best on bull elk and that is 338 win mag or .358 Norma mag!!! Now go call your hogs from the creek!!! Yes, I sure as hell do use premium bullets too.
Gun-Nut, great name I suppose your telling us something?
Let me put it this way to YOU Arky! The original .270 way back in 1922 was made for animals under 350 pounds......You do the research if you can. I'll continue to use what I know works best on bull elk and that is 338 win mag or .358 Norma mag!!! Now go call your hogs from the creek!!! Yes, I sure as hell do use premium bullets too.
I used to correspond a bit with the late George Hoffman. George was an African PH and the developer of what eventually became the 416 Remington. Most of our correspondence centered on elk hunting and elk cartridges. George told me he'd taken just at 50 elk... all with the 270. His opinion was if a guy didn't think the 270 was a fantastic elk cartridge they just hadn't done all that much elk killing with one.
Gun-Nut, great name I suppose your telling us something?
Let me put it this way to YOU Arky! The original .270 way back in 1922 was made for animals under 350 pounds......You do the research if you can. I'll continue to use what I know works best on bull elk and that is 338 win mag or .358 Norma mag!!! Now go call your hogs from the creek!!! Yes, I sure as hell do use premium bullets too.
I used to correspond a bit with the late George Hoffman. George was an African PH and the developer of what eventually became the 416 Remington. Most of our correspondence centered on elk hunting and elk cartridges. George told me he'd taken just at 50 elk... all with the 270. His opinion was if a guy didn't think the 270 was a fantastic elk cartridge they just hadn't done all that much elk killing with one.
So what we can all agree on here is "the best elk cartridge" would range from 270 win and bigger? I'd go for that.
Gun-Nut, great name I suppose your telling us something?
Let me put it this way to YOU Arky! The original .270 way back in 1922 was made for animals under 350 pounds......You do the research if you can. I'll continue to use what I know works best on bull elk and that is 338 win mag or .358 Norma mag!!! Now go call your hogs from the creek!!! Yes, I sure as hell do use premium bullets too.
I used to correspond a bit with the late George Hoffman. George was an African PH and the developer of what eventually became the 416 Remington. Most of our correspondence centered on elk hunting and elk cartridges. George told me he'd taken just at 50 elk... all with the 270. His opinion was if a guy didn't think the 270 was a fantastic elk cartridge they just hadn't done all that much elk killing with one.
So what we can all agree on here is "the best elk cartridge" would range from 270 win and bigger? I'd go for that.
I've killed and seen them killed with the 243 up to 338 WM. Funny how a bullet in the right spot will end life no matter the cartridge. I used the 338 WM quite a bit but later went to the 300 WSM as my primary elk rifle. Also used the 30-06 and 308 quite a bit. Funny how all the cartridges worked when pointed properly.
Ironically, I've never taken an elk with the 270, but have seen more elk taken with it than any other cartridge. I plan on rectifying that in a year or so. The 270 is a great all-around Western round. Mild kick, flat trajectory... sort of a soft-recoiling 300 Mag.
So what we can all agree on here is "the best elk cartridge" would range from 270 win and bigger? I'd go for that.
Me, too....nothing wrong with using something bigger and I've bumped into a lot of elk hunters who felt pretty strongly about using something larger,which is fine.I've carried 338's on elk hunts but for some reason the elk avoided me,but I have seen it and the 340 Weatherby used a fair amount.....and the 270 and 7 mag,and 300's as well.
It seemed to me they all killed well when good bullets were put in the right place;not so well with any of them when bullets were sloppily placed.
Me personally I mostly chose the middle ground and liked a 300 or 7mm mag for them;these work well IMHO.
I'm sorry Tonk, Just poppin' your bra strap . I agree with you. The 338 is a great elk round, one of the best. So..... Have you lost an elk or prairie dog that you wounded with a .270?
I'll check on tha hogs while you Google up more .270 experience.....ok
Brad, I too used to converse with George Hoffman years back and we certainly did have a difference of opinion of the .270 Winchester caliber! He also told me he didn't see a dimes worth of difference between the 150 and 160 grn Nosler Partition bullet. He was responsible for me purchasing my very first .416 magnum to hunt Africa with at the time.
Nonetheless, I liked George a bunch, he was indeed a Christian and a true pleasure to speak with about most anything, especially hunting in Africa. However, I always felt that Jack O'Conner had gotten to him years ago about one of the best deer killing calibers ever made.........270 Winchester!!! I go out on a limb and say the .270 Winchester was and still is the best mule deer killing caliber out there for the majority of the hunters today or back in 1925, especially with the introduction of a good 150 grn bullet that stayed togehter.
My late brother in law killed over 17 bull elk with his model 70 in .243 Winchester and I never considered it an "ELK Gun" either. Will a the .270 Winchester kill elk? Yes is sure will but in my humble opinion, it is just not in the same league as the .338/06, .35-Whelen, .338Win mag, .340-Weatherby or .375H&H caliber and that sums it up plainly speaking.
GunNut-308, the 25/06 and the 270 Winchester are my two favorite calibers for hunting around me in the mid-west but my .338Win mag and .416mag are my go to rifles for hunting those bigger critters both here and on the dark continent. I don't need to google anything up about hunting, only the current facts concerning farming our land in Craighead County, Arkansas.
Now justr remember this fact, there are those up North that kill bears using a friggin .22mag rifle! However, I sure as hell won't be attempting such a feat, even though others have been successful or plan LUCKY ok.
... Now justr remember this fact, there are those up North that kill bears using a friggin .22mag rifle! However, I sure as hell won't be attempting such a feat, even though others have been successful or plan LUCKY ok.
Tonk -
There are those here who swear velocity doesn't matter, some who swear bullet weight doesn't matter and others who swear energy doesn't matter. If those are true, what could possibly be wrong with a .22 Mag for big bears? CB Caps for everyone and we can all save a lot of money...
The whole "energy doesn't matter" canard is on of the more disingenuous arguments that happens around here...
It might matter if you could get a consensus of opinion on what it is....and what it does.... and how relevant it is;but you can't because the concept and its effects are too vague and obscure.
It's biggest shortfalling is that it fails to take bullet placement and construction,expansion, etc., into consideration....it is mostly voodoo,and like other attepts to quantify "killing power",it falls on its face....mostly.
The whole "energy doesn't matter" canard is on of the more disingenuous arguments that happens around here...
It might matter if you could get a consensus of opinion on what it is....and what it does.... and how relevant it is;but you can't because the concept and its effects are too vague and obscure.
It's biggest shortfalling is that it fails to take bullet placement and construction,expansion, etc., into consideration....it is mostly voodoo,and like other attepts to quantify "killing power",it falls on its face....mostly.
BobinNH �
You are correct � energy isn�t the only thing that matters. Nevertheless, other factors being equal, energy levels can make a huge difference.
At the end of the day, ALL the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal. It�s kind of like free falling at 125 mph � it isn�t the velocity that kills you, it is the sudden stop (energy transfer) at the end of the fall.
You are correct � energy isn�t the only thing that matters. Nevertheless, other factors being equal, energy levels can make a huge difference.
At the end of the day, ALL the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal. It�s kind of like free falling at 125 mph � it isn�t the velocity that kills you, it is the sudden stop (energy transfer) at the end of the fall.
CH: In some respects I think we are saying/thinking the same things....and when it comes to formulas I must admit to being something of a dolt,because charts and formulae induce me into a deep coma.....
I look at it this way and am sure you will understand because you and I share similar views in the type bullets we like to use.
I have noticed, for example, that (say)Bitterroots (like Northforks and Aframes)make more severe and extensive wounds,the faster they are driven;tend to work "better" at distance from magnum cartridges as distance increases,than from standard cartridges...although they kill well from both,but expansion is more dramatic from (say) those started at 3200 fps than those started at say 2800 fps.
The broad frontal area from higher velocity is what seems to do the damage,coupled with the penetration from good weight retention.
But if we take the same bullet,make it a solid,so that it does not expand,damage is less severe....yet,if started at the same velocity,that solid bullet has the same "energy" as the Aframe or Northfork;yet the wounding effect of the two is dramatically "different".....
No doubt there is "energy" at work here butit always seemed to me that the "energy" has been used in expanding the bullet and in overcoming the resistance presented by the flesh, muscle and bone of the animal;and within limits the broader frontal area of the expanded bullet is what administers the damage,and creates the wounding effect we all see.
My problem with all of this is that I view it all as being a mechanical function,and whether it can all be set forth in a quantitative formula, to predict killing power from a chart or table,is difficult for me to follow,because I can envision circumstances where a 140 gr bullet,from a 7x57 (as an example),can inflict more sheer "damage" to a deer, than a stoutly constructed 250 gr bullet from a 338,which possesses a much higher "paper energy" level...
This may well be because I am a bit lacking in quantitative matters.....and I may be falling down in expressing myself here, but I think you get my drift
Which is why I say that the formula is not of much use in predicting "killing power"(which has been the major reason for the energy tables use over the years),and why I say that much more depends on bullet action (and placement) than construction....but maybe something has gone completely over my head here, which is entirely possible!
We�re on the same page. Energy transfer may be responsible for the damage, but damned if I�ve ever seen a formula that can reliably predict an outcome � the variables are just too complex. Lots of energy, applied slowly, can go virtually unnoticed. (How much energy does gravity apply throughout the course of a day?) Far less energy, applied rapidly enough, results in massive destruction. Broadheads work on exactly that principle � energy transfer focused in a very tiny area (the razor-sharp blade edges) and applied fairly quickly, resulting in the non-elastic deformation of the flesh and bone (i.e. cutting). The numbskulls who talk about the relatively low fpe carried by an arrow, when compared to a bullet, need to do the math on how that energy gets applied and the difference in fpe applied per square inch of frontal area per second between the arrow�s blades and the bullet.
That said, and other factors being equal, I�d rather put the big bop on an elk using a bullet with 2000fpe than the same bullet with 200fpe. Change the bullet designs and weights and things get pretty murky pretty quickly, even with similar energy levels.
The whole "energy doesn't matter" canard is on of the more disingenuous arguments that happens around here...
It might matter if you could get a consensus of opinion on what it is....and what it does.... and how relevant it is;but you can't because the concept and its effects are too vague and obscure.
It's biggest shortfalling is that it fails to take bullet placement and construction,expansion, etc., into consideration....it is mostly voodoo,and like other attepts to quantify "killing power",it falls on its face....mostly.
BobinNH �
You are correct � energy isn�t the only thing that matters. Nevertheless, other factors being equal, energy levels can make a huge difference.
At the end of the day, ALL the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal. It�s kind of like free falling at 125 mph � it isn�t the velocity that kills you, it is the sudden stop (energy transfer) at the end of the fall.
Sorry - not true. The simple transference of energy via bullet doesn't tell the whole story. The part left out is the bullet itself first hitting tissue/organ/bone and in turn the effect that has on overall systemic function. Second, the free fall analogy is incorrect; while you're right the free fall itself even at 125 mph won't kill you the resultant systemic trauma then failure caused by the damage done by the sudden stop kills you not the sudden stop itself. If your statements were accurate there would be no one who survives lightning strikes and plenty do every year.
You are correct � energy isn�t the only thing that matters. Nevertheless, other factors being equal, energy levels can make a huge difference.
At the end of the day, ALL the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal. It�s kind of like free falling at 125 mph � it isn�t the velocity that kills you, it is the sudden stop (energy transfer) at the end of the fall.
Sorry - not true. The simple transference of energy via bullet doesn't tell the whole story. The part left out is the bullet itself first hitting tissue/organ/bone and in turn the effect that has on overall systemic function. Second, the free fall analogy is incorrect; while you're right the free fall itself even at 125 mph won't kill you the resultant systemic trauma then failure caused by the damage done by the sudden stop kills you not the sudden stop itself. If your statements were accurate there would be no one who survives lightning strikes and plenty do every year.
You may want to re-read what I wrote. What I said was �all the damage done to an animal is done via energy transferred from the bullet to the animal.� The �effect that has on overall systemic function� that you mention is a direct result of that damage, which obviously would include the bullet hitting flesh and possibly bone. Look at it this way � if NO energy is transferred, NO damage is done and there is NO �systemic effect�.
As to the free fall and the sudden stop, it is once again the damage caused by the rapid energy transfer during the stop that creates the �resultant systemic trauma �. No energy transfer means no damage, no death, no injury.
Many people do survive lightning strikes every year, many others die. The differences are many but the amount of energy transferred and the manner in which it is transferred is key. Sometimes most of the energy actually passes around the outside of a person�s body, resulting in various degrees of injury, sometimes it passes through the body and fries body parts to a carbon crisp or even vaporizes them. Most survivors, I suspect, are like my brother and his friend � victims of a near miss that burnt some clothing but did little else. Once again, however, if no energy is transferred, no bodily damage is done and there is no injury or death.
I never suggested �simple transference� of energy was responsible. In fact, if you read my previous response to BobinNH you will see that I specifically discuss the importance of the time element (as in �sudden� in �sudden stop� in the post you quote from).
So where do you rate the 44 magnum and 454 handguns? Elk cartridges yes or no?
Damn strait they are and anyone that says there not are Dinky Dow...I have seen what they do on different critters and it's nothing short of amazing, yet I have seen a 357 Mag handgun take down a nice 6X6 right on the skirt of camp...My 454 Casull is always, not far off.
I do..45 Colts on steroids.. Actually,my to go load around here is a 300 grain XTP(reg not mag) at 1300 fps out of my Casull...You could shoot that puppy all day long one handed.
My son is wanting a 44 Mag or 45 Colt and I am pushing towards the Colt since I already have the reloading stuff and a ka zillion bullets.
That's a loaded question..I think there equal as the .007 difference in diameter is moot when the bullet is put in the same place.45-70 Trapdoor velocities are about exactly the same as 454 Casull loads with the same weight....
They both kill game deader than dead in skilled hands.Better yet,which is the better game killer out of either..Cast or jacketed..
Not to early in the morning to pull the wool over your eyes.... Got to wonder tho how many of the ballistic experts around here are still scramblin for their ballistic spreadsheets. lol
Guess I never really give a spit about food chains and peckin orders, or what the cool kids thought. But I surely do wonder about how some come up with the theories and righteousisms they do spout off with..
Well guys, I am just a country fellar that didn't go passed the 6th grade. I don't know anything about physics or science in general. I raised 5 kids to be Christians and 1 a lawyer, 2 doctors, a school teacher and the youngest boy is an Airborn Ranger in the Army. I watched him today run 3 miles, do a 100 pushups & 150 situps before running 3 miles 16:32. he certainly put a smile on my face and his old coaches too.
I myself believe in "big bullets" on big game and calibers the bigger is better for that species. Hell, I hunted groundhogs with a 270 Winchester for a couple of years before I got my .300 mag and used it for 10 years before getting a 6mm.
Ive hunted ELK over 40 years and in several states, and Ive never had a problem with my 340wby mark V and hornady 250 grain bullets over a stiff load of H4831 every last one Ive shot died within a few yards
UNLIKE this, I painted my stock camo ,and mounted a 2x-7x Leopold scope but its been 100% dependable, you just drive the slug thru the top of the heart or arteries above the heart and the slug gets the job done
now you certainly don,t need a magnum Ive killed ELK with a 30/06, 35 whelen, and 358 win, but you asked for the best Ive used
IF your wanting to spend a good deal less and like a fast second shot If you can find one in caliber 35 whelen in good shape, at a decent price, don,t hesitate! GRAB IT!! they are a really good ELK rifle!
Ive carried a 340 wby or a 375 H&H on many ELK hunting, trips,and those work great! so Its not like I think that magnums don,t work well, its just that its become very obvious that they are not the only ticket to success, nor are they REQUIRED most of the time, to kill ELK, like some of the magazine articles seem to imply. when I started hunting ELK many of the guys with experience swore the slide action Remington 30/06 was about the best possible choice, light weight, dependable, accurate , reasonably priced etc., when the 35 whelen version became available almost all the guys bought those, or a 358 win BLR, after seeing the results the first few guys had with those rifles. but being young, (40 plus years ago) I just knew that a serious magnum was going to improve my chances, and while it certainly did seem to get an ELKs full attention and drop them a bit faster, I eventually realized that the old geezer mentors were simply pointing out the obvious fact that any well hit ELK with a 30/06 or 35 whelen, or 358 win was just as dead as one hit with my super zapper magnum, and the non-magnums cost less, kicked less and tended to be lighter and shorter and easier to carry...I took years, but eventually even the younger guys come around to facing facts, and the facts seem to be that its not the rifle or caliber as much as the guy using its skill level that determines success.
Never hunted elk but shot some big red stags, in driven hunt (hard to kill full of adrenaline) and stalking. Used 270Winchester, 7x64Brenneke, 30-06 and 9,3x92/74R. I thing the best caliber is one you manage well, shoot accurately with bullet up to the task. Of course as a real hunter you adjust shooting distance and angle depending on the power of your caliber and efficiency of the bullet...But if had spent lot of money for a big trophy guided hunt i thing i will go for my 300Winch mag with Nosler or Barnes bullet just in case because i know i shoot it well or may be, in timber country, go to my 9,3x62 hot rodded with healthy dose of VN540 and Barnes 250X...
John I believe what you say about bullets because you are studied, experienced, and objective....
I tend NOT to believe folks who claim to have spent the bulk of their hunting carreers on hands and knees trailing wounded animals before the advent of Bergers.....
I do agree that "magic" (confidence)is important... I also believe you because I know you...Hah!
I kinda wanted to see if we could get 50,000 views on this thread so here is a little bump.
Here is why I like the 264 Win Mag.
..................Those damn VLDs aren`t supposed to do that. Many deem them as paper punchin/target bullets ONLY.....:D
Next time another,,,"VLD on elk",,,thread pops up, we`ll see how well the VLD opponents try and explain away this one. LOL! You know who you are. LOL!
Another "proven" DRT VLD elk kill. Great job Burnsie!
Impressive no doubt....if I had not seen (and done) the same thing with Partitions and BBC's myself, I might even get a woodie over Bergers myself....
But I have seen too many bulls killed to believe in magic bullets anymore....YMMV.
..........The word "magic" is simply a word.
But on the flip side though, you can call the VLDs whatever you wish. I`ll be more than happy to take those """magical""" results.
In Burnsie`s case as was clearly demonstrated, as well as from my own VLD experiences and from the many, many, and many more first hand VLD experiences by others, the words,,,,,,,"final and end results",,,,,,imo, have a far greater meaning than does the far simpler word,,,"magic",,,which of course is usually placed on the VLD by the usual and typical VLD opponent.
I asked and answered this same question ~30 years ago. I took a pre-64 model 70 action, attached a Shilen SS match gauge #2 barrel and placed it in a Chet Brown stock. Then I took a Leupold 2.5x8 and held it in place with a set of Control rings. The result has been 16 elk in the freezer with some hanging on the wall. Oh yea it was chamber in .300 Winchester Mag.
I asked and answered this same question ~30 years ago. I took a pre-64 model 70 action, attached a Shilen SS match gauge #2 barrel and placed it in a Chet Brown stock. Then I took a Leupold 2.5x8 and held it in place with a set of Control rings. The result has been 16 elk in the freezer with some hanging on the wall. Oh yea it was chamber in .300 Winchester Mag.
lynn: Years back that was my "solution" too....with a Krieger SS 24" tube,and 4X Leupold..Works good don't it?
That was a good, even a great shot John. But here's what I saw. Somebody had the time to get out the video camera and start the video while the hunter watched the elk. Even then, the hunter had 1 min and 14 secs to shoot. When yelled at, the bull stopped to look. Gave the hunter a standing shot. I wish the elk I hunted were that cooperative. No, I couldn't make or would even try that shot with any rifle. But I make little effort to equip myself for that kind of shooting because I don't get those kinds of opportunities. E
U see the thing is E, that I know some of the country you've been hunting and I know it very well and there are times...when one does and or when I have had exactly kind of time that JB and Wayne had.
Not always for sure but there are times over the last 20 some years where I have seen it.
That was actually, a least for me, a very limited time opportunity.
When taking those extended distance shots I have to be very careful to get into a pretty neutral shooting position or I will screw a shot like that up.
For me there really is no �quick and fast� way to consistently hit at long range and if you don�t have the time you had better let him walk.
There are definitely techniques to give the shooter more time to get his position right and dick around with the scope less and get the right dope on the optic faster (BDCs anyone), but in the end you have to take the time it takes or you will screw the pooch.
It is one thing to shoot fast at relatively close range but at extended distance you need way more time to accurately place a shot. Typically you also have more time at distance, but each situation is a case unto itself and the first skill in LR shooting should be learning the discipline to pass on bad shots.
You should also realize that not having any Long Range potential is a self fulfilling prophesy as to the range you will be able to take game.
30-30 What? Somebody is dreaming I think, time to wake up my friend. Now ifin you got close enough perhaps but anything over a 125 yards and your out of luck.
I got myself one of those Looooooong Range bean shooters sometime back. Yep, a real thumper you might say, in a model 70 Winchester caliber bees a .338/300-Ultra Mag. It does go band and a big OUCH follows......no brake yet but it is comin.
However, I am much more accurate with my 7mm Rem. mag when it comes to way out youndar. I use my .300 Win mag too but I'll bet money on the 7mm mag. I got a newer 6.5/06 but it hasn't been tried out (was not set up for long range) yet on any big game. I seem to like it though better than my 1/4 bore 25/06.
50 yds to as far as the eye can see. I wouldn't make it a heavy LRH rig; that would fairly un-wieldly in the woods. Yet, it would have to be accurate enough to reach out. I'd say in the 7-9 lb range, give or take.
The glass would need to meet the same criteria; low enough power to see a bull "through" the woods and yet enough power to hit'm way out. Something like 1.5x at the low end and 10-12x at the upper end should do. Lots of choices today.
I think a premium 140 gr 6.5mm on the light end to drive deep into vitals and as much as 250 gr Accubond .366 cal on the upper for those who like the larger stuff. The upper end would need some special reloading considerations and optic options to fit the LR criteria but it could be done. My 9.3x62 will easily reach to 500-550 yds with the 1.75-6x with CDS elev turrets I have on top.
Most common would be something in the 7mm and 30 cal range.
I've got three rifles that would work.
1. 6.5x47 with 140 Part running 2860 fps, 2.5-10 NF on a Pierce action, 26" Broughton #3 barrel weighing 8 lb 10 oz.
2. 30-06 AI running 180 BT/AB @ 3000 fps in a Rem 700 LA with a pencil thin Lilja barrel. With a VX3 4.5-14 it weighs in a round 7.5 lbs
3. 9.3x62, Pre 64 M70, VX3 1.75-6 with 24" Pacnor all sitting in a D'Arcy Echols Legend stock at 8 lb 3 oz. 250 Accubonds @ 2606 fps.
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
if I won a hunt like that Id take the rifle IM most familiar and confident with, my custom bedded weatherby fibermark synthetic rifle in caliber 340 wby with its harris 27" bi-pod and 3.5-10x50mm leopold scope loaded with 250 grain hornadys over a stiff load of H4831 and a 215 fed primer, bushnell range finder and Steiner 10x50 binoculars.... no reason to change what been well proven to work, and Id get in as close as I could before firing, even though I know I can hit out at 500 yards ID prefer getting into much shorter ranges
I would have to take my Accumark 340wby. I am comfortable with it and it is about as accurate of a gun that I have seen. A friend of mine borrowed it this year to go Elk hunting and I seen the damage the 200 grain Barnes did to it. I could fit my fist threw the exit hole.
Better yet. Get in touch with the elk and se what they have to say. I will bet it would be something like thhguiotoiwegtia can,t shoot jihhgieruueytihiuhgi hit my friend ivdsioghiuhgtyebrvb and they keep shooting. I,am hit but I think I can make the timber. Shot placement and a cool head is Key. Not what you wound them with.
I didn't kill an elk this year....but there are so many good one's that I'd feel like a horse's ass picking one and saying it's "best"
I can't do it with a straight face!
ps The 7mm Mashburn really is "The Best Elk Cartridge in the World"
I fixed your quote for you Bob.
You know you want to say it.
John, I still can't say it...I try too hard to be objective.
But...............the next elk I kill will die from it!
Seriously there are too many cartridges that work too well.Elk simply aren't the iron clad creatures we were taught they were growing up and old in this sport.But they can be....if you hit them wrong.
Better yet. Get in touch with the elk and se what they have to say. I will bet it would be something like thhguiotoiwegtia can,t shoot jihhgieruueytihiuhgi hit my friend ivdsioghiuhgtyebrvb and they keep shooting. I,am hit but I think I can make the timber. Shot placement and a cool head is Key. Not what you wound them with.
This is my candidate for post of the year! Awesome!!
My go to rifle has always been the 7mm Rem Mag. Used to shoot Hornady 162 BTSP with RL22 out of a Ruger M77 MKII, topped with a Tasco world class 3x9x40, and have quite the sach full of ivories. Now it has become an old Remington 700 BDL 7mm Rem Mag liking Berger 168 and 180 VLD's with a healthy dose of Retumbo behind it wearing a Leupold VX3 6.5x20x40 LR. It has worked great on everything from antelope to deer, elk, and even a late season mountain goat at 360 yds this year.
I would say the .338 Winney. The bigger mags to be noticed are the Weatherbys in 340 the big .30's and the ever popular 375 H&H. All great rounds for those interest in having the most unique thing they can build. I feel that the .338 Winchester is the best of all of that.
Flat, powerful, lots of bullets to choose from to reload, lots of rifles to choose from that are already chambered in your cartridge, and proven.
I feel an elk rifle is a woodsman tool. Real pretty needs care in the woods when I am focused on other things. If you hunt off of horse back or quad then ya by all means but if you are sliding down rock or slipping in the mud then we are right back to the tool analogy.
I mostly bow or muzzle loader hunt for elk but I do occasionally use my pre-64 super grade Winchester in 30.06 to cover the miles. Great rifle shooting a 180 grain Partition. Groups good but not as great as the guys here shooting 3/4" groups with a .340 Weatherby at 200 yards. Yes, it has a great stock and action but it was made for hunting and that's what it does best.
I also just bought a .358 Norma but I bought it mostly for bear. I guess it would be a dandy elk rifle but I still like the .338 for all of its abilities.
I guess the only way i could answer this question honestly is: the best elk cartridge is the one that you can shoot the most accurate.Know the cartridges limitations and know your own limitations,stay within both limitations any you'll be fine.
the best elk cartridge is the one that you can shoot the most accurate.Know the cartridges limitations and know your own limitations,stay within both limitations any you'll be fine.
That's right Mac, I rarely think about what I'm toting when on the hill. Now the middle of winter is a marketers dream isn't it. We get all bored and hash and rehash "BG" to death.
Inside 80 yards..1895 Winchester in .405, a western hat,good knife,worn boots covered in mud.. best dog by my side A hot wife waiting at home..I'm all set...Life is good!
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
Such an easy question. A .45-100 Sharps. Any shot from quartering away to head on out to 200 and any basically broadside shot out to 300 or possibly a little further if conditions are ideal.
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
There is no cartridge that is universally the �absolute best elk cartridge in the world�, just as there is no rifle that is the �absolute best elk rifle�.
As always, �best� is a qualitative judgment that depends on a variety of factors including individual priorities and assessments. What one person deems �best� may be completely inappropriate for another.
When this thread started I was debating between a .338 and a .375 for a custom build. In the end I went with a .338 WM for a variety of reasons and took my elk with it last year. Even though I consider it an excellent choice for myself, it falls into the �completely inappropriate� category for the then 12 year old girl I met a couple years back who had taken two elk and a mulie buck with a .25-06 in the preceding days. Nor do I consider the .338 WM the �absolute best� even for myself, although it proved �adequate�.
In the proposed scenario, I�d take two of the following rifles:
7mm RM - Ruger M77 tang safety with iron sights, wood/blue, 160g North Fork .30-06 � Ruger M77 tang safety, wood/blue, 165g North Fork or 168g TTSX .30-06 � Ruger MKII, stainless/synthetic (boat paddle), 165g North Fork or 168g TTSX .30-06 � Remington M700, wood/blue, 165g North Fork or 168g TTSX .300 WM � Ruger MKII, blue/synthetic (boat paddle), 180g North Fork or 180g MRX .338 WM � Ruger MKII, stainless/synthetic (boat paddle), 225g AccuBond
All rifles have Burris Fullfiled II/Ballistic Plex scopes on them, in 3-9x or 4.5-14x.
Which two? Probably two of the magnums. Beyond that I don�t know. If it was one of my daughter going my suggestion would be the 7mm RM or a .30-06.
I have never had my boots or pack cost me a bull. Seriously, how hard is it to pick an appropriate pair of boots? I might get a blister or two but that would hardly stop the hunt. Pick the wrong rifle/cartridge and that could very well cost the hunt.
Did you say blisters??
Luckily this pic wasn't taken after a hunt, but I did nearly repeat the condition about 2 weeks later trying to help a buddy on a hunt. I will say this, these blisters lamed me up enough that it wouldn't have mattered what rifle I was carrying as I wasn't going too far too fast for awhile...
ever heard of duct tape?? a couple quick pieces when your foot developed a hot spot and that would never happen. duct tape is always in my pack. I recommend the gorilla brand, in a pinch even some petroleum jelly has saved me just long enough to get back to camp.
I can't really say it's the best elk cartridge/rifle in the world, but, if I won the hunt JB referenced in his initial post, I'd take my Win 70 SS Classic 300Win mag. I've got it sorted out pretty good to 700yds with 200gn TSX's. It's topped with a 4.5-14x40 Leupold with their custom LR reticle calibrated to my load, I can dial it to 700 and be confident. It's bedded into a supergrade pattern McMillan.
As a backup I'd take essentially the same rifle that shoots the same ammo bedded into a Fwt pattern McMillan topped with a 4.5-14x40 W/M-1 elevation turret. The bbl was cut back to 23" to remove the B.O.S.S..
These might not be the "BEST" but I know both work well for me.
I would take my remington xcr ii 300 ultra mag with 180 grain level 2's that way I know at both short and long distance there is gonna be a trophy on my wall..
If I had to choose from my current battery, I would take my 7mmRM with 150 TTSXs and a .30-06 with 180 TTSX's as back up.
If I were to buy a new gun for such a hunt I would buy a .338 Win and shoot 225 TTSX's. Or I would sell my 7mm and buy a .300 Win and shoot the 180 or 200 TTSX.
.300 Win and .338 Win best Elk cartriges in the world (Tie!)
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
I'd take what I own now, and sure as hell would not run out and buy the theoretical "biggest and best".I would stick with what I know works,and what I can shoot well.
I would use the same 300 Win mag that I have been using since 1970. My post 64 Model 70 with my 2.5 X 8 Leupold, chet brown stock and a couple of new bluing jobs and stocks over that time. It will still put 3 under a dime at 100 yards and loves to hunt elk.
Sh*t, I thought logchucker settled this last week with a 223 and one of them 90 rd mags to feed his tri burst activator he is gonna install on it. Then tell all of us not to go elk hunting if we can't shoot an elk rifle. Leastways until he had to put up or shut up to an 11 year old? I must have missed something over last weekend? Magnum Man
I'm astounded at how few times the .338 win mag was mentioned. When it comes to elk hunting and all the variables elk present, it is difficult to find a better all around caliber.
I've become very fond of my Marlin 338MX. After years of toting a Tikka in 300 WSM, the 338MX does it all for me in terms of lightweight, fast handling, low recoil, accurate, while still delivering plenty of umph down range out to, and even slightly beyond, 400 meters. I gotta get another Montana sling for her since I robbed hers to put on a 1894 44 Mag I went pig hunting with last month - and I am about to mount a Leupy Scout 2.5 on her because my eyes are not as good with open sights as they were when I was younger .... but boy oh boy does this gal deliver. I've been very very happy with the Leverevolution/Hornady cartridge and the platform.
I'm astounded at how few times the .338 win mag was mentioned. When it comes to elk hunting and all the variables elk present, it is difficult to find a better all around caliber.
Yes, it is hard to find a better round for normal folks to use. I find the elk give more visual indication when hit than with an '06. They don't seem to die any faster though. I use a .338 more than anything else for elk. It weighs right at 8.5 lbs and isn't bad at all.
There sure are a lot of other good choices though which makes me hesitate to call anything "worlds best".
As to all around. I shot a few deer with it until I hit a bone. Back to the '06 I went. I have some .338 180 gr BT's loaded to about 2730 to use in the .338 next time.
dont know if its the best but my best gun for elk is my ol savage 111 lrh 300 win mag with 180 gr ttsx ill take any angle of shot within 250 yards with this combination. Do to my bull this year i shot faceing fully twords me. shot in the chest and acctually an inch away from his A$$ hole =0 at 50 yards though.
[quote=JohnBurns]How about this for a hypothetical question:
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
As always, �best� is relative and an individual choice. Some folks would do very well with a .338 RUM or Lapua, others would do much better with a .300WM, many would do best with smaller.
I�d be very comfortable taking my 7mm RM and 160g bullets on such a trip but I might top it with new turreted glass.
For the hunt that John described, I would use one of my .338 Win Mags--probably the No. 1-S. For the kind of hunting that I actually get to do, I still like my 9.3s.
I use a 300 Win.Mag. That works. I am also confident that a .270 Win. works too since I have seen it with my own eyes and have also shot Kudu and Zebra with one and have had them drop at the shot.
I am going to put in my vote for the 264 Win Mag/ 140 VLD combo. I am really liking the results.
No shots through the paunch on the way to the vitals but hit ribs or shoulders and it does the job at any reasonable range.
Now if I could win this lottery things would be really peachy.
The .264 Win Mag seems like a great choice. Have you tried the new 6.5 Wea. RPM? Approx same case capacity, but rebated rim. Else, the .264 Win.Mag is a Classic.
In fact, that's what was used to shoot the current World Record Mule Deer from Colorado.
The list of adequate to excellent cartridges is a mile long, a lot of what makes a preference of one over another is personal experience and success. My go to cartridge for a majority of my hunts has been the 7mm RM. it checks off a lot of boxes for a go to rifle chambering. Large availability of good brass, a large selection of very good projectiles in a variety of weights. Lots of powder selection that seem to work well. With decent case capacity, and the powders available today it’s not hard to push 150’s to over 3200, 160’s to 3000+, 175’s at 2850. It shoots fairly flat , hits hard, has manageable recoil it’s pretty easy to like. Even though I have a couple of 300 mags 1winny set up as a dedicated longrange rifle , and a 300 Bee that I horse traded for and I do like both a fair bit I find my self gravitating back to my 7mm for most of my hunting . Including heading out for moose here Nov. 1. Again most people have their own personal preferences which is what makes the world go around.
The "best cartridge" will vary depending on the shooter and their capabilities. There is no universal best.
I'd take my .300WM. That doesn't make it the "the absolute best elk cartridge in the world", but it is one I already have.
In a few days I'll be taking that rifle as a back-up for my elk hunt. A SIL will be using it during 3rd Rifle Season while I use my .280 Rem. Another SIL and Daughter #1 will hunt with me during 4th Rifle, using a 7m RM and .270 Win respectively. Shots could be out to 600, the limit of our practice and even then only under ideal conditions. Not worried about any of the rifles or loads being inadequate or less than "the absolute best elk cartridge in the world".
In this hypothetical, I've opted to pack a 45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with 315gr LFN bullets at 1100. The easily 400+ bull steps out of some timber at 110 yards, and I whip out my improvised rest. He takes the first shot though the lungs, takes three steps forward, and gets the next shot though the shoulders, dropping right there. Other hunters seem to show up out of nowhere to congratulate me, help me cut this guy up, and help me pack him down and out to the truck. I get photos of each with the bull, and have acquired new lifelong friends.
Amazing. I have just successfully completed the hunt of a lifetime. I'm pretty proud of myself. When I get home, my wife and kids are there to shower me with congratulations and hugs, tears of pride welling up in their eyes.
In this hypothetical, I've opted to pack a 45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with 315gr LFN bullets at 1100. The easily 400+ bull steps out of some timber at 110 yards, and I whip out my improvised rest. He takes the first shot though the lungs, takes three steps forward, and gets the next shot though the shoulders, dropping right there. Other hunters seem to show up out of nowhere to congratulate me, help me cut this guy up, and help me pack him down and out to the truck. I get photos of each with the bull, and have acquired new lifelong friends.
Amazing. I have just successfully completed the hunt of a lifetime. I'm pretty proud of myself. When I get home, my wife and kids are there to shower me with congratulations and hugs, tears of pride welling up in their eyes.
It's Miller time!
LOL, that's awesome and so true. thank you for posting that.
Here's a good read when it comes to the OP's question. It reflects my experience as well with different calibers and cartridges. personally I junt with a .308 suppressed shooting 168 gr berger VLDs. it's poison on elk, most drop within feet of where they are hit. This article breaks down the science between cartridges and the give and take of a few popular cartridges.
I did find it amusing that so often I hear about guys not taking long shots because that's not hunting, or they like to get in close etc. we've all read them and some of us feel the same still, and that's ok. The article shows difference under 400 yards between cartridges is negligible from a practical standpoint. no doubt someone will go off on a tangent disagreeing with me and pointing at the difference in energy etc. that's why I put the word "practical" in there. and the article pretty much says the same thing showing there's not a whole lot of difference in what it takes to kill and elk and what they deliver. the cartridges are 308, 300wm and 338 wm for those who are curious. spoiler alert, the magnums really only shine at extended ranges and poor shot angles with mono bullets. granted you can't always pick how the animal is standing and I absolutely get that. But the practical reality is that it's pretty unlikely that you often get a texas heart shot (yes it has happened to me once and no rifle choice is going to make me want to take that shot ever, I ate that tag). I've only killed 16 or so elk and magnum or not wouldn't have made a difference on any of them when it was said and done. 4 were shot with magnums the rest with everything from a .243 to 30-06.
In this hypothetical, I've opted to pack a 45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with 315gr LFN bullets at 1100. The easily 400+ bull steps out of some timber at 110 yards, and I whip out my improvised rest. He takes the first shot though the lungs, takes three steps forward, and gets the next shot though the shoulders, dropping right there. Other hunters seem to show up out of nowhere to congratulate me, help me cut this guy up, and help me pack him down and out to the truck. I get photos of each with the bull, and have acquired new lifelong friends.
Amazing. I have just successfully completed the hunt of a lifetime. I'm pretty proud of myself. When I get home, my wife and kids are there to shower me with congratulations and hugs, tears of pride welling up in their eyes.
It's Miller time!
LOL, that's awesome and so true. thank you for posting that.
Here's a good read when it comes to the OP's question. It reflects my experience as well with different calibers and cartridges. personally I junt with a .308 suppressed shooting 168 gr berger VLDs. it's poison on elk, most drop within feet of where they are hit. This article breaks down the science between cartridges and the give and take of a few popular cartridges.
I did find it amusing that so often I hear about guys not taking long shots because that's not hunting, or they like to get in close etc. we've all read them and some of us feel the same still, and that's ok. The article shows difference under 400 yards between cartridges is negligible from a practical standpoint. no doubt someone will go off on a tangent disagreeing with me and pointing at the difference in energy etc. that's why I put the word "practical" in there. and the article pretty much says the same thing showing there's not a whole lot of difference in what it takes to kill and elk and what they deliver. the cartridges are 308, 300wm and 338 wm for those who are curious. spoiler alert, the magnums really only shine at extended ranges and poor shot angles with mono bullets. granted you can't always pick how the animal is standing and I absolutely get that. But the practical reality is that it's pretty unlikely that you often get a texas heart shot (yes it has happened to me once and no rifle choice is going to make me want to take that shot ever, I ate that tag). I've only killed 16 or so elk and magnum or not wouldn't have made a difference on any of them when it was said and done. 4 were shot with magnums the rest with everything from a .243 to 30-06.
Interesting read...but why does Ron run ballistics charts at zero elevation, and standard conditions that never applied to elk hunting or the Rocky Mountains, all the while discussing packing rifles up the Rocky Mountains? I get tired of this kind of error, as it is very significant, and easily avoidable. All the energy and trajectory numbers are seriously skewed because of this.
I get that the article is a comparison between 3 typical cartridges for elk, but it reminds me of comparing three makes of truck to use for outdoor recreation, but then picking the smallest engine package in each. The comparison ends up not matching real world results.
I know right? and then a 10 mph crosswind to boot. come on, all hunters know you hunt into the wind therefore the shot will be into the wind. throws the whole thing off and makes the comparison irrelevant.
Have been hunting mostly with a 8x68S for the last six or seven years with 200 grain Partitions. Shots from 50 yards to 530 yards. Elk, moose, stag, deer, boar and even little the roe.
However, the 7mm Remington Magnum with 180 grain Berger’s out to 800 yards (my personal limit) would be my choice of world’s best elk cartridge.
I didn’t go back and read 30 pages of posts but in my opinion, the .300 Weatherby (or .300 RUM j is about the best elk killer out there. If extreme range is not on the menu, then .35 Whelen. Happy Trails
John, I haven’t read all of the contributors posts, but I’m assuming that every cartridge has been covered....with the possible exception of the “lowly” 22 Long Rifle! memtb
Last time I elk hunted I took my 8mm rem mag. It’s in a light weight stock and shoots 200TSX about 2950...it’s no feather weight but it’s light enough. And though I’ve never killed an elk with it it has absolutely hammered everything else I’ve ever shot with it.
For me, number one choice and the one I’ve taken all my most difficult shots on elk with is the 6.5x284 Winchester (now standardized by Norma).
Second place goes to the .270 Roy. Although I haven’t taken as many elk with it, if push came to shove I’d say it’s the best ever.
Shot a bunch with the .338 Win Mag and .300 Roy and my experience with those tells me the two above are superior. More bang/flop kills with the 6.5x284, .270 Bee and .270 Win, for sure.
In this hypothetical, I've opted to pack a 45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with 315gr LFN bullets at 1100. The easily 400+ bull steps out of some timber at 110 yards, and I whip out my improvised rest. He takes the first shot though the lungs, takes three steps forward, and gets the next shot though the shoulders, dropping right there. Other hunters seem to show up out of nowhere to congratulate me, help me cut this guy up, and help me pack him down and out to the truck. I get photos of each with the bull, and have acquired new lifelong friends.
Amazing. I have just successfully completed the hunt of a lifetime. I'm pretty proud of myself. When I get home, my wife and kids are there to shower me with congratulations and hugs, tears of pride welling up in their eyes.
It's Miller time!
LOL, that's awesome and so true. thank you for posting that.
Here's a good read when it comes to the OP's question. It reflects my experience as well with different calibers and cartridges. personally I junt with a .308 suppressed shooting 168 gr berger VLDs. it's poison on elk, most drop within feet of where they are hit. This article breaks down the science between cartridges and the give and take of a few popular cartridges.
I did find it amusing that so often I hear about guys not taking long shots because that's not hunting, or they like to get in close etc. we've all read them and some of us feel the same still, and that's ok. The article shows difference under 400 yards between cartridges is negligible from a practical standpoint. no doubt someone will go off on a tangent disagreeing with me and pointing at the difference in energy etc. that's why I put the word "practical" in there. and the article pretty much says the same thing showing there's not a whole lot of difference in what it takes to kill and elk and what they deliver. the cartridges are 308, 300wm and 338 wm for those who are curious. spoiler alert, the magnums really only shine at extended ranges and poor shot angles with mono bullets. granted you can't always pick how the animal is standing and I absolutely get that. But the practical reality is that it's pretty unlikely that you often get a texas heart shot (yes it has happened to me once and no rifle choice is going to make me want to take that shot ever, I ate that tag). I've only killed 16 or so elk and magnum or not wouldn't have made a difference on any of them when it was said and done. 4 were shot with magnums the rest with everything from a .243 to 30-06.
Good thing I found this thread after all of these years for you guys. The answer to the question is a Kimber Montana in a 325 WSM. Y'all can thank me later!
My friend who is a guide in Montana, with about 50 years of Elk hunting says he is happiest when a hunter shows up with a rifle with worn bluing and a scratched up stock chambered in 270 Win. I've used it on a dozen or more elk and works just fine with 150 Partitions. or back in the day with 150 Core Locks. Used a 300 H&H loaded with 180's as couple of times and could see no difference, they ran out of oil pressure and fell over, same with the elk I killed back in my Magnum Days with a 338 Win.
Been elk hunting the last 5 days with a Rem 280 loaded with 150g AB at 2898fps. At the altitude I'm hunting it retains over 100fpe at 550 yards. I was whacking steel with it at 600 before I left home. Good enough for me.
As a backup I have my .300WM and 175g LRX. Might carry it next season when Daughter #1 and her hubby join me.
THe question asked by the OP, though, is a pretty dumb-ass question. There is no universal "best".
In this hypothetical, I've opted to pack a 45 Colt Blackhawk loaded with 315gr LFN bullets at 1100. The easily 400+ bull steps out of some timber at 110 yards, and I whip out my improvised rest. He takes the first shot though the lungs, takes three steps forward, and gets the next shot though the shoulders, dropping right there. Other hunters seem to show up out of nowhere to congratulate me, help me cut this guy up, and help me pack him down and out to the truck. I get photos of each with the bull, and have acquired new lifelong friends.
Amazing. I have just successfully completed the hunt of a lifetime. I'm pretty proud of myself. When I get home, my wife and kids are there to shower me with congratulations and hugs, tears of pride welling up in their eyes.
It's Miller time!
LOL, that's awesome and so true. thank you for posting that.
Here's a good read when it comes to the OP's question. It reflects my experience as well with different calibers and cartridges. personally I junt with a .308 suppressed shooting 168 gr berger VLDs. it's poison on elk, most drop within feet of where they are hit. This article breaks down the science between cartridges and the give and take of a few popular cartridges.
I did find it amusing that so often I hear about guys not taking long shots because that's not hunting, or they like to get in close etc. we've all read them and some of us feel the same still, and that's ok. The article shows difference under 400 yards between cartridges is negligible from a practical standpoint. no doubt someone will go off on a tangent disagreeing with me and pointing at the difference in energy etc. that's why I put the word "practical" in there. and the article pretty much says the same thing showing there's not a whole lot of difference in what it takes to kill and elk and what they deliver. the cartridges are 308, 300wm and 338 wm for those who are curious. spoiler alert, the magnums really only shine at extended ranges and poor shot angles with mono bullets. granted you can't always pick how the animal is standing and I absolutely get that. But the practical reality is that it's pretty unlikely that you often get a texas heart shot (yes it has happened to me once and no rifle choice is going to make me want to take that shot ever, I ate that tag). I've only killed 16 or so elk and magnum or not wouldn't have made a difference on any of them when it was said and done. 4 were shot with magnums the rest with everything from a .243 to 30-06.
Been elk hunting the last 5 days with a Rem 280 loaded with 150g AB at 2898fps. At the altitude I'm hunting it retains over 100fpe at 550 yards. I was whacking steel with it at 600 before I left home. Good enough for me.
As a backup I have my .300WM and 175g LRX. Might carry it next season when Daughter #1 and her hubby join me.
THe question asked by the OP, though, is a pretty dumb-ass question. There is no universal "best".
Didn't get a chance to use either rifle. Did manage, along with my SIL, to get Covid-19. He only stayed 3 nights total and hunted opening weekend before going home on Monday. We believe we contacted COVID at one of the two restaurants in Craig where we ate supper as our other meals were in the trailer or was food we prepared in the trailer and took with us in our backpacks. A week later, in 4th rifle, I wasn't feeling good and got a COVID test that came back positive. By then another SIL and Daughter had joined me, and they later came down with Covid as well. When the test came back positive, Daughter and SIL got me back home as I was in no condition to drive, let alone do so pulling the trailer. Got home and entered the hospital the same day. Turns out I had pneumonia on top of Covid. The good news is that now all the Colorado residents of my family have had Covid except for my wife.
Noticed and error in my post that I quoted, too late to edit it. The .280 Rem load I was using, given the altitudes we were hunting, retains 1500fpe at 650 yards, not "100fps at 550 yards"..
I'd use the same 30-06 with 180gr Interlocks that I used on this public land bull. Anything under 1/4 mile - but, if I'm hunting on a private limited tag/access ranch I would expect the shot to be under 200 yards.
WTH is a B-29 ? I googled "B-29 Rifle cartridge", and all i got was an airplane.
Very special rifle cartridge envisioned by our own John Barsness, aka Mule Deer on this very forum. You can find it in the Ask the Gunwriters section. Not many manufacturers chambering it yet.
Doesn't matter a whit to me what someone else thinks might be "best". What matters to me is what I choose from the options available to me. That has been everything from a .44 Mag to a .45-70 in the levers and .257Roberts to .338WM in the bolts.
I'd use the same 30-06 with 180gr Interlocks that I used on this public land bull. Anything under 1/4 mile - but, if I'm hunting on a private limited tag/access ranch I would expect the shot to be under 200 yards.
Picture is most likely doctored. Even if it isnt the guy is an asshat for using a wood stocked rifle that cant hold zero. The Hornady Interlock bullet always ends up in failure and typically blows up on the hide unlike the awesome Barnes TTXS. About the most sickening part is the choice of a bullshcidt 30-06 that has an trajectory of a tube of lipstick. Some folks use that old crap equipment trying to act nostalgic and cool and all but if they dont just outright miss their equipment is nothing more than wounding tools. Its a bunch of crap if when theres no Tikka in the pic.
I'd use the same 30-06 with 180gr Interlocks that I used on this public land bull. Anything under 1/4 mile - but, if I'm hunting on a private limited tag/access ranch I would expect the shot to be under 200 yards.
Picture is most likely doctored. Even if it isnt the guy is an asshat for using a wood stocked rifle that cant hold zero. The Hornady Interlock bullet always ends up in failure and typically blows up on the hide unlike the awesome Barnes TTXS. About the most sickening part is the choice of a bullshcidt 30-06 that has an trajectory of a tube of lipstick. Some folks use that old crap equipment trying to act nostalgic and cool and all but if they dont just outright miss their equipment is nothing more than wounding tools. Its a bunch of crap if when theres no Tikka in the pic.
Excellent points in that post. Except you left out the part about that scope doesn't appear to MOA external adjustment knobs and laser illuminator.
I'd use the same 30-06 with 180gr Interlocks that I used on this public land bull. Anything under 1/4 mile - but, if I'm hunting on a private limited tag/access ranch I would expect the shot to be under 200 yards.
Picture is most likely doctored. Even if it isnt the guy is an asshat for using a wood stocked rifle that cant hold zero. The Hornady Interlock bullet always ends up in failure and typically blows up on the hide unlike the awesome Barnes TTXS. About the most sickening part is the choice of a bullshcidt 30-06 that has an trajectory of a tube of lipstick. Some folks use that old crap equipment trying to act nostalgic and cool and all but if they dont just outright miss their equipment is nothing more than wounding tools. Its a bunch of crap if when theres no Tikka in the pic.
Excellent points in that post. Except you left out the part about that scope doesn't appear to MOA external adjustment knobs and laser illuminator.
I'd use the same 30-06 with 180gr Interlocks that I used on this public land bull. Anything under 1/4 mile - but, if I'm hunting on a private limited tag/access ranch I would expect the shot to be under 200 yards.
That bull is obviously still alive. It's already been explained that the rifle and the bullet and the optic would have killed no elk.
My question is: how long did it take you to train him to hold that pose? Pretty cool stuff.
I'd use the same 30-06 with 180gr Interlocks that I used on this public land bull. Anything under 1/4 mile - but, if I'm hunting on a private limited tag/access ranch I would expect the shot to be under 200 yards.
That bull is obviously still alive. It's already been explained that the rifle and the bullet and the optic would have killed no elk.
My question is: how long did it take you to train him to hold that pose? Pretty cool stuff.
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
Is that a rifle with a bayonet, that you can use to run the elk through when it misfires and jams?
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
That's great advice for out west where bears roam. Have had some interesting run ins with a few over the years.
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
That’s been my signature line for years.....and my personal belief! memtb
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I’ve never seen where a larger cartridge made up for poor shooting. I once saw an elk badly hit with the 338 WM run off only to be collected by someone with a 270. I’ve seen far more animals lost due to poor shooting with large cartridges than the reverse.
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I’ve never seen where a larger cartridge made up for poor shooting. I once saw an elk badly hit with the 338 WM run off only to be collected by someone with a 270. I’ve seen far more animals lost due to poor shooting with large cartridges than the reverse.
Nor have I. Nowdays I favor a fairly light recoiling (and lightweight) rifle. Kimber MT 308 with good bullets does it all. If I didn't have all sorts of Palma brass for the 308, I would have went 7-08.
I’ve never seen where a larger cartridge made up for poor shooting. I once saw an elk badly hit with the 338 WM run off only to be collected by someone with a 270. I’ve seen far more animals lost due to poor shooting with large cartridges than the reverse.
I’ve seen a number of mostly-young people make bad shots with a .223 on up. I have never seen anyone who noticed recoil when firing at game or even at water bottles outside. If someone missed with a .338 or whatever, they likely were just not good hunters and/or unpracticed with their gun. An anti-recoil shoulder pad and added weight at the range, such as a hefty bipod, makes shooting something like a 338 for an average-sized man nothing uncomfortable. In the field, no one I've ever met even noticed. My 16-yr-old son shoots my 7mm Wby and 300WM with deadly accuracy at the range. Sometimes, he says his shoulder is feeling it after about 30 rounds. When shooting at my friend's farm, he says he can't feel it at all. If someone's missing badly with a .338, I think they're just not good with a gun.
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I’ve never seen where a larger cartridge made up for poor shooting. I once saw an elk badly hit with the 338 WM run off only to be collected by someone with a 270. I’ve seen far more animals lost due to poor shooting with large cartridges than the reverse.
I'd probably use my Brno 21h 7x64. Or maybe my Sako carbine in 30-06. And I'd limit my shots to less than 300 yds. Anything farther than that is just shooting, not hunting - to me anyway. About angle - I don't shoot at animals going away from me any more. And I seldom shoot at animals facing directly towards me - unless I'm very, very sure of the shot. Interesting how the presence of "Really BIG" animals often makes people forget basic principles - like making sure of a clean kill. With enough technology a "hunter" can overcome just about any limitation. To me hunting is more about hunting skills than shooting technology. So, I'd call 'em in close and shoot 'em where it counts. Flame away!
Now that is one of the smartest answers so far. This man knows how to hunt!
Just to interject some of my experiences once again. That majority of the elk, that I have seen lost have been shot with .243's and 6mm., caliber cartridges My uncle (way back) used to shoot them with a 250, until he lost a couple that made it into the deep dark, on the Oregon coast. I agree that some are lost to poor shooting, but that happens with all cartridges, not just those that can reach out and touch them several football fields away. I feel no recoil when shooting at game, my concentration is on the shot, not which of my rifles I am shooting. I truly believe that my Kimber lightweight recoils significantly, especially prone, however I never feel the recoil I am so focused on the shot. There are truly people who should not be hunting, but who and why is not my say, or do I want it to be.
I think many hunters shoot very well at the range but not in the field because at the range they concentrate on a small spot, "bullseye", on the target and when they shoot at game they aim at the animal and do not pick a specific spot on the animal they want to hit, therefore the hits are sometimes marginal.
I think the best elk cartridge is the largest one that you can shoot well, within reason.
Just to interject some of my experiences once again. That majority of the elk, that I have seen lost have been shot with .243's and 6mm., caliber cartridges My uncle (way back) used to shoot them with a 250, until he lost a couple that made it into the deep dark, on the Oregon coast. I agree that some are lost to poor shooting, but that happens with all cartridges, not just those that can reach out and touch them several football fields away. I feel no recoil when shooting at game, my concentration is on the shot, not which of my rifles I am shooting. I truly believe that my Kimber lightweight recoils significantly, especially prone, however I never feel the recoil I am so focused on the shot. There are truly people who should not be hunting, but who and why is not my say, or do I want it to be.
Well shucks,, I've got a pair of 243's that have killed 14 elk between them and have never lost an elk (I wasn't the shooter most of the time but I have witnessed every kill). Of those 14 elk 5 or 6 were broadside, the rest quartering away or quartering towards. Think 100g Partition.
It has NOTHING to do with the cartridge, it has EVERYTHING to do with the bullet.............use a stout bullet and shoot them in the front half. It's that simple.
alpinecreek, Sorry you have not figured out Elk are bullet proof to about 90% of the fire that have killed, wounded lost, shot at one and missed, You need to go home and drink the Elk are Bullet proof KOOL- AID that all the real hunters drink. laughing !! Rio7
".... shooting a 300wsm with 180gr Trophy Copper. My dad shot, the bull fell down, got up, shot again, bull fell down, got up and started walking.... we debated on following the bull or letting it go and not push it. Thank God we decided to follow it!! It went about 700 yards with no blood trail. Even after we got the bull, I rewalked the path back to where we started and no blood, no exit holes."
End of quote
I'll add I got no dog in this loonyism thread, this chit gets old and deep.
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I’ve never seen where a larger cartridge made up for poor shooting. I once saw an elk badly hit with the 338 WM run off only to be collected by someone with a 270. I’ve seen far more animals lost due to poor shooting with large cartridges than the reverse.
This.
The argument that you don't feel recoil when shooting at game, doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Mental aversion to recoil is developed in practice at the range, not while hunting. If a person gets beat up by their rifle while zeroing and practicing, subconscious fear takes root and bad shooting while hunting can result.
I live by this quote. "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
I’ve never seen where a larger cartridge made up for poor shooting. I once saw an elk badly hit with the 338 WM run off only to be collected by someone with a 270. I’ve seen far more animals lost due to poor shooting with large cartridges than the reverse.
This.
The argument that you don't feel recoil when shooting at game, doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Mental aversion to recoil is developed in practice at the range, not while hunting. If a person gets beat up by their rifle while zeroing and practicing, subconscious fear takes root and bad shooting while hunting can result.
My brother is a whitetail outfitter in Texas. His hunters kill 150+ whitetail a year. They come from all over the country. He tells me about every group and where they are from, shooting skills, rifle used, etc. 95 % of the time it goes like this.
He gives them his .22-250, parks their .300 magnums, let's them shoot 5 times at a target after multiple misses at deer under 100 yards. They go how it this gonna work? He then says trust me. Then watches their mind get blown as they center punch a deer on the next shot and it it dead in 5 seconds. They go home and downsize their rifle.
Few lessons in this tale even related to elk...
PS - his .22-250 is on its 4th barrel, he's 30 years old, shoots 55 grain soft points of various makes. Can't shoot a paper target to save his life but will shoot a glowing set of eyes farther than most can see let alone what most will want to shoot. Best field shooter I've ever seen.
The argument that you don't feel recoil when shooting at game, doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Mental aversion to recoil is developed in practice at the range, not while hunting. If a person gets beat up by their rifle while zeroing and practicing, subconscious fear takes root and bad shooting while hunting can result.
"Beat up"???
Lol.
Look at the .340 Wby, it's beating me up!!!! Ridiculous.
".... shooting a 300wsm with 180gr Trophy Copper. My dad shot, the bull fell down, got up, shot again, bull fell down, got up and started walking.... we debated on following the bull or letting it go and not push it. Thank God we decided to follow it!! It went about 700 yards with no blood trail. Even after we got the bull, I rewalked the path back to where we started and no blood, no exit holes."
End of quote
I'll add I got no dog in this loonyism thread, this chit gets old and deep.
Okay, another experience quoted from another:
" As we caped him, we found a 1" fibrous mass forward above his right shoulder, below his spine, and just under the hide. After cleaning it out we discovered that it was a copper jacketed bullet. This bull had been shot years prior and the wound had healed over, sequestering the bullet in fibrous tissue- tough old bull."
Thoughts on above? What would O'Conner say? Aagaard? Hagel? Mule Deer? You?
How about this for a hypothetical question: ---More like a couple of questions
You have won a lottery draw for a rut elk hunt on one of the big southwestern reservations. All expenses paid.
Shots can be inside 50yds to as far as the eye can see and the bulls are 350++ but as always the big boys (380+) are scarce and wary.
What rifle/cartridge/bullet would you choose???----Probably my Model 70 FW, '06, 180 NPT. If not, my Model 70 Classic .338 Win Mag, 225 gr TBBC,
What shots would you be willing to take with your cartridge of choice regarding range and angle??----First shot-standing-quartering to me or better? 300 yards.
The point is instead of worrying about adequate let�s talk about what is the absolute best elk cartridge in the world??
---Different question. I have another Model 70, a .300 Weatherby. It shoots 5/8 groups most of the time. With 200 grain NPT it is my nominee. It isn't my choice currently as I haven't shot it enough to get used to it yet.
My wife killed her first elk with a .243 Win., and will readily tell you, that a lot of luck was involved. She does not advocate a .243 Win for elk! She has since worked her way up to a .338 WM, because she likes to “get beat up”. She also likes to kill elk with authority....most of her elk were one shot kills. You can also add bear and moose to that list! I guess that she must be closing her eyes and flinching just right! Everyone knows that a hunter cannot accurately shoot a heavy recoil rifle.....well, maybe a lot of men hunters can’t! memtb
So I guess the next question is, why doesn’t Everybody just hunt bucks with a 223?? All these reliable scopes, epic bullets, should be a no brainer??? Good lord
Ya I’ve killed multiple elk with a 243, 6mm and 6ai, some with 80 gr nbt’s. There are alledgedly elk that have been killed killed with 222’s, 22 hornets, well fuuck, hes dead now so he won’t get a ticket, old chaser buddy of mine used to kill a elk with a 22 magnum every year, and countless bucks... big [bleep] whoopie... personally I’ve never killed anything too “”dead” and I’ve never ruined too much meat.
Ahhh fuuck it, use the smallest caliber ya can, tape all over the muzzles, tall turrets blah blah [bleep] blah... shiit is for real at the 24 hcf!!! 😂😂
Ok I think I will weigh in..... I didn't read the whole thread so good chance this has already been mentioned..... I vote 300 Win mag. 200 Nosler partition at 2900fps. Oh and Jud... damn the recoil.... elk hunting is a mans sport but you already know that
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
The argument that you don't feel recoil when shooting at game, doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Mental aversion to recoil is developed in practice at the range, not while hunting. If a person gets beat up by their rifle while zeroing and practicing, subconscious fear takes root and bad shooting while hunting can result.
"Beat up"???
Lol.
Look at the .340 Wby, it's beating me up!!!! Ridiculous.
It's pushing on my shoulder before I ignore that while gently squeezing the trigger. Never a single bruise. No beating. What a myth.
Not everyone can bench press 500 lbs, and is made of iron...Although, I'm betting that if you were to shoot that rifle from prone or from the bench 50 times in a practice session (the average guy zeros and practices from the bench, remember), you'd see your first bruise.
You knew that I wasn’t being literal when I said “beat up”, but none-the-less I’ve seen bruising with my own eyes, caused by much less powerful rifles than the .340 Wby. Trust me, it’s not ridiculous and it’s no myth. Rifle fit matters. Physical effects like bruising aside, pain is mental, and you have to remember that the average hunter isn’t mentally conditioned to manage recoil properly from anything more than about a well-fitted .270 or maybe a .30-06.
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
How many elk have you shot, and guided, "I assume that's where clients" comes from. Do most use magnums? Its quite the "phenomenon" sounds like. These African PJ's and Alaskan gross guides must have fits!!😂😂
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
How many elk have you shot, and guided, "I assume that's where clients" comes from. Do most use magnums? Its quite the "phenomenon" sounds like. These African PJ's and Alaskan gross guides must have fits!!😂😂
Jud,
Never done any paid elk guiding, but the concept applies regardless of the species a guy is chasing. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys that are well-practiced, serious hunters or shooters that can handle their magnums just fine. But there are also plenty of hunters that shoot magnums and really shouldn't. Like Brad and Greg, I've seen more guys struggle to cleanly kill critters because they were over-gunned than because they were under-gunned. Most of the occasions that come to mind at the moment involved 7 Mags, .300 Mags, or .338 Mags. A couple of the 7 Mag guys were handed a .308 or 7-08 and did much better. One of the .300 Mag guys was a client I was guiding for caribou. When he arrived at camp with the other hunters we checked zero from the bench, and he literally fired a 10" 3-shot group. I asked if I could fire a few rounds, and the rifle/load went sub-MOA. We got to within ~180 yards of a nice bull, and I had the hunter go prone with a solid but soft rest (a dead caribou). He unloaded his magazine at the bull, missing every shot. I knew from the moment that him and I both fired his rifle at paper that he was afraid of the thing, so I handed him my rifle (which unbeknownst to him was a 7 Mag) and told him that it had a lot less recoil than his .300. He drilled the bull center-chest on the first shot. Could he have become proficient with his .300 with enough practice and conditioning? Probably. But the hunter I saw was afraid of his newish .300 Mag. I've seen similar situations play out several times.
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
How many elk have you shot, and guided, "I assume that's where clients" comes from. Do most use magnums? Its quite the "phenomenon" sounds like. These African PJ's and Alaskan gross guides must have fits!!😂😂
Jud,
Never done any paid elk guiding, but the concept applies regardless of the species a guy is chasing. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys that are well-practiced, serious hunters or shooters that can handle their magnums just fine. But there are also plenty of hunters that shoot magnums and really shouldn't. Like Brad and Greg, I've seen more guys struggle to cleanly kill critters because they were over-gunned than because they were under-gunned. Most of the occasions that come to mind at the moment involved 7 Mags, .300 Mags, or .338 Mags. A couple of the 7 Mag guys were handed a .308 or 7-08 and did much better. One of the .300 Mag guys was a client I was guiding for caribou. When he arrived at camp with the other hunters we checked zero from the bench, and he literally fired a 10" 3-shot group. I asked if I could fire a few rounds, and the rifle/load went sub-MOA. We got to within ~180 yards of a nice bull, and I had the hunter go prone with a solid but soft rest (a dead caribou). He unloaded his magazine at the bull, missing every shot. I knew from the moment that him and I both fired his rifle at paper that he was afraid of the thing, so I handed him my rifle (which unbeknownst to him was a 7 Mag) and told him that it had a lot less recoil than his .300. He drilled the bull center-chest on the first shot. Could he have become proficient with his .300 with enough practice and conditioning? Probably. But the hunter I saw was afraid of his newish .300 Mag. I've seen similar situations play out several times.
Interesting, did you shoot the fella’s 300 to see if it was him?
Reason I ask, and it baffles me why guys do it, but more often than not their guns don’t shoot worth a damn to begin with.
Say a guy starts with a 30-06, has a rodeo on an elk.. so they blame the 30-06. Next time out they’ll have a 300 or 338 of some sort, and end up with the same results.
Point being often times it’s not the cartridge, it’s that all too often people half ass the sight in process, they simply aren’t shooters and wouldn’t bother to practice with a smaller cartridge anymore than they would a big one. They seem to think 12” pattern at 100 will get the job done.
Sorry rosco, maybe I didn’t say it clearly enough, but after watching the guy shoot a 10” 3-shot group, I fired the rifle and shot a sub-MOA 3-shot group, made an adjustment to get the scope zeroed at 100, confirmed zero, and carried on.
What you’re describing certainly happens at times, too. Some guys aren’t interested in practicing and becoming proficient, and would suck equally with small or large chamberings.
The guy shooting 10" groups has no one to blame but himself. It takes dedication and practice to shoot a 300 well for most guys. Most dont bother and the results are predictable. For many of them they cant shoot a light recoiling rifle well either. Personally I shoot thousands of rounds of 204,223, and 22-250 at prarie dogs every year and almost never from a bench. A few months before big game season I start to work the bigger rifles into the rotation. By the time hunting season rolls around I feel confident that I can kill anything that walks in Montana given the opportunity.
""" I’ve killed multiple bulls with the 338 WM and 300... there’s not one of them that couldn’t have been cleanly killed with a 6.5 CM."" How many have have killed their elk while it was standing in the pasture (or meadow) grazing unawares, while giving the hunter the time to set up and get everything ready for that exactly perfect shot, that knocks the animal right off of their feet, and then lays down in the field waiting for the hunter to walk up and tag them? Those blessed with circumstances like that do not have to think about energy, or foot pounds of impact while trying to thread a bullet between two trees, in the deep dark, at sunset, or twilight. Who cares if it's the only shot that might be presented after getting up at 4 am, for days and walking miles to stalk or watching for their prey. It's easy to pass that shot up knowing that it could be your only opportunity for 12 more months to fulfill your dream. Its no big deal to wait for another year, waiting another year for a tag draw that may not happen, for another opportunity. After all there is "always another day". I can truly say, that out of the almost 200 ellk that myself and my very small group of friends and relatives have killed, during my 60+ years in the field. That a number of them would not have been cleanly taken with small caliber rifle, or would have made it into the deep dark and never found. That has happened, even with larger calibers and can never be overcome. Accuracy and energy are the key, without both you will most likely fail, elk are big and tough and can absorb tremendous amounts of energy and travel downhill a long ways prior to dropping dead. Do them and yourself a favor use enough gun and become proficient with it.
I have never seen an Elk that had to be shot !! if you don't have the shot don't shoot, Black timber, or not enough light, morning or evening, to rushed, not ready, spray and prey usually does not turn out real well, no matter what fire arm you chose, almost all the rodeo's, are caused by poor judgement and poor shooting. Rio7
Not everyone can bench press 500 lbs, and is made of iron...Although, I'm betting that if you were to shoot that rifle from prone or from the bench 50 times in a practice session (the average guy zeros and practices from the bench, remember), you'd see your first bruise.
Everyone I've known who has used them (or the Past brand ones) says that they work way better than they ever would have thought possible. Everyone. There's no such thing as bad recoil, just bad gear.
One example is my 16-yr-old son. Here he is last week shooting, and sighting in for his eyes, my .300WM and 7mm Wby—with the pad on.
30 rounds; no problem. None.
Outside hunting or playing around, he doesn’t ever feel any recoil, like everyone else I know.
I love seeing young people interested in hunting and shooting, you are blessed. Thank you for your service, SPC 5- bill, RVN 67.
Thanks 1. Ditto. So far, I've gotten way more out of this country than I have given it.
We were just "bear hunting," which around here without dogs this time of year, is basically camping and hiking with rifles with the implausible hope that a non-denning bear will appear within firearm range. Still, good times.
A well placed shot trumps everything else. Usually those who aren’t capable of a well placed shot exacerbate the deficiency with a bigger caliber and cartridge.
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
He shot perfect just by telling him the rifle kicked less? Never seen that happen.
A lot of this recoil terror seems like a myth to me. I got caught up in it a little bit back in 2009, when I bought the .340 Wby. I had been shooting that 300WM well for decades by then. But the writing on the .340 Wby was mostly that it had such killer recoil that only a few elite persons overdosing on steroids and Percocet could handle it. When I was waiting on the rifle to come, and choosing a scope and rings, etc., I was contemplating having a 1lb mercury tube installed in the stock to reduce the recoil to something along the lines of a 155mm artillery piece.
I couldn’t find a gunsmith that would do that in a timely manner. So, reluctantly, I took it to the range, donned the recoil pad, and let loose with some of the lighter, 200gr – 210gr loads, expecting my shoulder to be instantly dislocated. Bang!!! Wait? What? That was nothing! Loaded up the 250gr Partitions, and kept going for about two hours. I had been influenced by decades of magazine and internet writings about the — to me-nonexistent — crazy recoil of that cartridge.
It just seems like a self-fulfilling dialog. If people read hundreds of times about how a normal man can’t handle a 300 WM, but he can shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor with NASA-like precision, many will believe it. I don’t anymore.
After my 16-yr-old son first shot the 300 WM and 7mm Wby this year, with sub-MOA groups, I told him that, supposedly, some men can’t do that. He said: “Really? Why?”
Given all of that, I did start him off with the .243 from ages 8 to early-16 to get him really good at shooting before he moved up. My 13-yr-old still uses the .243.
I don't think the issue with bigger cartridges is that folks can't shoot good groups, its that for many of us we won't practice with them the same way we will with the little stuff. Yesterday I took my little 250 ack to the range and fired off about 90 rounds at steel at various ranges, standing, sticks and prone. Easy peasy, physically I didn't couldn't even feel I had been shooting. Sure I can shoot some good groups with my .375, but I am not going to go bang away with it for two hours. For me proficiency requires doing and for me at least I can do a lot more of it with my little guns and it cost less too. Sure some of what you get from practicing with a little guns helps with the bigger ones, but the more the guns differ in set up, the less is transferable
A lot of this recoil terror seems like a myth to me. I got caught up in it a little bit back in 2009, when I bought the .340 Wby. I had been shooting that 300WM well for decades by then. But the writing on the .340 Wby was mostly that it had such killer recoil that only a few elite persons overdosing on steroids and Percocet could handle it. When I was waiting on the rifle to come, and choosing a scope and rings, etc., I was contemplating having a 1lb mercury tube installed in the stock to reduce the recoil to something along the lines of a 155mm artillery piece.
I couldn’t find a gunsmith that would do that in a timely manner. So, reluctantly, I took it to the range, donned the recoil pad, and let loose with some of the lighter, 200gr – 210gr loads, expecting my shoulder to be instantly dislocated. Bang!!! Wait? What? That was nothing! Loaded up the 250gr Partitions, and kept going for about two hours. I had been influenced by decades of magazine and internet writings about the — to me-nonexistent — crazy recoil of that cartridge.
It just seems like a self-fulfilling dialog. If people read hundreds of times about how a normal man can’t handle a 300 WM, but he can shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor with NASA-like precision, many will believe it. I don’t anymore.
After my 16-yr-old son first shot the 300 WM and 7mm Wby this year, with sub-MOA groups, I told him that, supposedly, some men can’t do that. He said: “Really? Why?”
Given all of that, I did start him off with the .243 from ages 8 to early-16 to get him really good at shooting before he moved up. My 13-yr-old still uses the .243.
About like writers saying that short barreled revolvers kicked less than shorter barrels, that's never been my experience
I'd guess a .300 or .338 Win mag is the best elk cartridge in the world, but after having to deal with a concussion and rotator-cuff surgery, I'm not interested in shooting anything bigger than a .308 Win in a rifle that I care to carry in the field.
I think it also depends on the type of elk hunt. Based only on what’s in my armory, if I was backpacking-hunting deep into the high-elevation mountains in the NF, I might grab my lite 7mm Wby ULW.
However, if I walk out of the cabin on my mountain property in Colorado, I can walk about 150 yards to a big rock that overlooks a meadow that is about 600 yds deep and 1/2 mile wide, and often see mule deer and elk calmly grazing below at ranges from 200 yds to 600 yds. For that, I certainly would grab my .340 Wby with its ridiculous 4.5-27x 50mm scope.
But last time I did the former, I still chose the .340 Wby.
Not everyone can bench press 500 lbs, and is made of iron...Although, I'm betting that if you were to shoot that rifle from prone or from the bench 50 times in a practice session (the average guy zeros and practices from the bench, remember), you'd see your first bruise.
Everyone I've known who has used them (or the Past brand ones) says that they work way better than they ever would have thought possible. Everyone. There's no such thing as bad recoil, just bad gear.
I'm glad you make sure to use effective gear to mitigate recoil-related shooting issues. I've got a fair bit of experience with Past recoil shields, muzzle brakes, bench-mounted vises, etc, but of course the majority of hunters don't use any form of artificial recoil reducer. My previous comments about my observations were in reference to mostly average hunters that simply shoot their rifles. And without the Cabelas pad, a muzzle brake, bench vise, etc, assuming a sporter-weight rifle, I'd probably win the bet about the bruising. Either way, the effect I described is real, and while it can be mitigated with effective choice of equipment, most people are either unaware of those options or just choose not to use them. There's nothing wrong with using magnum rifles if you can manage the recoil and muzzle blast without developing an aversion to firing the rifle, but lots of people that I've observed shooting magnum rifles simply can't/don't manage it well.
In terms of factors that affect "killing power", I think most serious hunters would agree that between shot placement, bullet construction, and caliber/bullet weight/velocity, the ranking would be placement first, then bullet construction, then caliber/weight/velocity. Ideally, maximizing all three factors would produce the most "killing power", but in the real world there are trade-offs. Even if a person can handle shooting magnum rifles, it's more enjoyable for most people to shoot a rifle with less blast, recoil, and ammunition cost, so people tend to practice in higher volumes with smaller rifles, and as a result they tend to shoot better and have more confidence in their rifle when using a smaller cartridge. This especially holds true for the average hunter that doesn't invest in becoming proficient with magnum rifles. So when I say that I've seen more people lose critters by being over-gunned than under-gunned, it's because they traded the most important factor (precision in shot placement) for the least important of the three factors ("rifle power").
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
He shot perfect just by telling him the rifle kicked less? Never seen that happen.
I don't know about perfect, but yessir he shot well enough to hit center-chest. Ever see somebody bothered by the recoil or blast of a larger rifle shoot better when you hand them a .22 or .223? It's the same effect. The fear/anticipation/aversion to recoil and blast is a mental thing, and is all in their head.
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
He shot perfect just by telling him the rifle kicked less? Never seen that happen.
I don't know about perfect, but yessir he shot well enough to hit center-chest. Ever see somebody bothered by the recoil or blast of a larger rifle shoot better when you hand them a .22 or .223? It's the same effect. The fear/anticipation/aversion to recoil and blast is a mental thing, and is all in their head.
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
He shot perfect just by telling him the rifle kicked less? Never seen that happen.
I don't know about perfect, but yessir he shot well enough to hit center-chest. Ever see somebody bothered by the recoil or blast of a larger rifle shoot better when you hand them a .22 or .223? It's the same effect. The fear/anticipation/aversion to recoil and blast is a mental thing, and is all in their head.
I know it us a mental thing and I've seen people shoot better with firearms that weren't intimidating them but. I've only seen that work after a shot or 2 to accept that they aren't being hurt with each shot. I've never seen it work just by saying "this one doesn't kick as bad"
Do you have scientific data to prove this, or a “hunch”?
My experiential sample size is admittedly smaller than some, but after witnessing hundreds of animals get shot by myself/partners/clients, I’ve witnessed what I’ve described above multiple times. A guy is afraid of his rifle before ever having an animal put in front of him. Shoots 10” groups at paper at 100 yards, misses animal. I give him my rifle with the assurance that it “kicks a lot less than your rifle” (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant), and he kills the critter.
He shot perfect just by telling him the rifle kicked less? Never seen that happen.
I don't know about perfect, but yessir he shot well enough to hit center-chest. Ever see somebody bothered by the recoil or blast of a larger rifle shoot better when you hand them a .22 or .223? It's the same effect. The fear/anticipation/aversion to recoil and blast is a mental thing, and is all in their head.
I know it us a mental thing and I've seen people shoot better with firearms that weren't intimidating them but. I've only seen that work after a shot or 2 to accept that they aren't being hurt with each shot. I've never seen it work just by saying "this one doesn't kick as bad"
Regardless of how it takes place, if a person becomes convinced that a rifle won't cause discomfort, they can focus on placing the shot instead of on the perceived pending pain. In that particular case we had a bull in front of us, and I guess the word of his guide was enough for the hunter to become convinced that my rifle wouldn't hurt him.
A well placed shot trumps everything else. Usually those who aren’t capable of a well placed shot exacerbate the deficiency with a bigger caliber and cartridge.
Most people cant shoot light kicking cartridges either. And while shot placement is important a 300 mag placed well trumps a 22lr placed well every time.
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
Wonder how well these waterfowl hunters that shoot boxes of 3 1/2” mags handle a rifle?? 😂😂😂
Same as they do the 3 1/2" 12 not very good. Premium non toxic 3" 12's all you need in a 12 if they won't cut the mustard step up to the 10 and quit fugging around. Mb
Be good. Don’t hold your breath, we don’t treat NR’s very well.
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by SLM
I bet some of you drive lifted trucks as well.
We still have to wrestle Jud.😆
😂😂😂
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
Be good. Don’t hold your breath, we don’t treat NR’s very well.
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by SLM
I bet some of you drive lifted trucks as well.
We still have to wrestle Jud.😆
😂😂😂
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
Don’t feel bad, I couldn’t draw an elk hunt that’s been running close to 80%.
Originally Posted by GregW
Originally Posted by SLM
Be good. Don’t hold your breath, we don’t treat NR’s very well.
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by SLM
I bet some of you drive lifted trucks as well.
We still have to wrestle Jud.😆
😂😂😂
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
Don’t feel bad, I couldn’t draw an elk hunt that’s been running close to 80%.
Originally Posted by GregW
Originally Posted by SLM
Be good. Don’t hold your breath, we don’t treat NR’s very well.
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by SLM
I bet some of you drive lifted trucks as well.
We still have to wrestle Jud.😆
😂😂😂
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
Damn straight you don't....grin
I couldn't do a deer or elk hunt either with not too far off of those odds. Blank on both....
Don’t feel bad, I couldn’t draw an elk hunt that’s been running close to 80%.
Originally Posted by GregW
Originally Posted by SLM
Be good. Don’t hold your breath, we don’t treat NR’s very well.
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by SLM
I bet some of you drive lifted trucks as well.
We still have to wrestle Jud.😆
😂😂😂
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
Don’t feel bad, I couldn’t draw an elk hunt that’s been running close to 80%.
Originally Posted by GregW
Originally Posted by SLM
Be good. Don’t hold your breath, we don’t treat NR’s very well.
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by SLM
I bet some of you drive lifted trucks as well.
We still have to wrestle Jud.😆
😂😂😂
I’m just keeping the pot stirred brother man!! I ever draw another tag down there, we'll meet up, for a beer and bs’n, not wrestling, gettin too old!! Haha
On the spot, of course. I shoot an elk with a 6.5 creed, bang flop. You shoot an elk with a 338 Ultra Kick Ass Mag, bang flop. Which one was most effective?
I'm glad you make sure to use effective gear to mitigate recoil-related shooting issues. I've got a fair bit of experience with Past recoil shields, muzzle brakes, bench-mounted vises, etc, but of course the majority of hunters don't use any form of artificial recoil reducer. My previous comments about my observations were in reference to mostly average hunters that simply shoot their rifles. And without the Cabelas pad, a muzzle brake, bench vise, etc, assuming a sporter-weight rifle, I'd probably win the bet about the bruising.
But that's not the bet you made. It's $29. If someone shoots 10" groups without one like you described above and then goes hunting with that, they're as dumb as a 7-yr-old driving a Corvette at hyper speed. It's not the gun that makes someone incompetent, it's the person who is incompetent. Why argue for a weak rifle that collectively, with rifle, scope, ammo, and time costs $thousands and would be worse than a better rifle if the same person had spent $29 on a pad?
I've shot my .375 Wby and .340 Wby for hours without a single bruise with the $29 pad. Bet lost.
I'm glad you make sure to use effective gear to mitigate recoil-related shooting issues. I've got a fair bit of experience with Past recoil shields, muzzle brakes, bench-mounted vises, etc, but of course the majority of hunters don't use any form of artificial recoil reducer. My previous comments about my observations were in reference to mostly average hunters that simply shoot their rifles. And without the Cabelas pad, a muzzle brake, bench vise, etc, assuming a sporter-weight rifle, I'd probably win the bet about the bruising.
But that's not the bet you made...
Why argue for a weak rifle that collectively, with rifle, scope, ammo, and time costs $thousands and would be worse than a better rifle if the same person had spent $29 on a pad?
Yes, it is. When talking about shooting rifles and how much recoil is too much, we generally assume no artificial recoil reducers. No rolled up towels, Past recoil shields, no Type-3 body armour placed between the buttstock and your shoulder. It’s simple. Flop down prone, fire 50 rounds from a sporter-weight .340 Mag with no muzzle brake, no recoil shield, no rolled up towel, and you’ll probably end up in some discomfort and be left with some bruising. If you want to use artificial recoil reducers, that’s fine, but that’s not what I was talking about when I mentioned the bruising.
How would a less over-powered rifle be “worse” if it produces equally acceptable results on game? If you want to use rifles that are too much for you, where you need a recoil shield just to manage the recoil, that’s fine with me. But don’t try to tell me that a guy needs a recoil shield and a giant rifle to be “better” at cleanly killing NA’s ungulates. I’ve seen too many critters hit the dirt from a variety of cartridges to buy that nonsense.
I'm glad you make sure to use effective gear to mitigate recoil-related shooting issues. I've got a fair bit of experience with Past recoil shields, muzzle brakes, bench-mounted vises, etc, but of course the majority of hunters don't use any form of artificial recoil reducer. My previous comments about my observations were in reference to mostly average hunters that simply shoot their rifles. And without the Cabelas pad, a muzzle brake, bench vise, etc, assuming a sporter-weight rifle, I'd probably win the bet about the bruising.
But that's not the bet you made...
Why argue for a weak rifle that collectively, with rifle, scope, ammo, and time costs $thousands and would be worse than a better rifle if the same person had spent $29 on a pad?
Yes, it is. When talking about shooting rifles and how much recoil is too much, we generally assume no artificial recoil reducers. No rolled up towels, Past recoil shields, no Type-3 body armour placed between the buttstock and your shoulder. It’s simple. Flop down prone, fire 50 rounds from a sporter-weight .340 Mag with no muzzle brake, no recoil shield, no rolled up towel, and you’ll probably end up in some discomfort and be left with some bruising. If you want to use artificial recoil reducers, that’s fine, but that’s not what I was talking about when I mentioned the bruising.
How would a less over-powered rifle be “worse” if it produces equally acceptable results on game? If you want to use rifles that are too much for you, where you need a recoil shield just to manage the recoil, that’s fine with me. But don’t try to tell me that a guy needs a recoil shield and a giant rifle to be “better” at cleanly killing NA’s ungulates. I’ve seen too many critters hit the dirt from a variety of cartridges to buy that nonsense.
When hunting I really try to shoot less than 50 rounds! memtb
Bottom line is that shot placement is critical, but as we all know there are lots of elements that can affect that shot. A gust of wind, an unseen twig or branch, the animal moves the same millisecond that you pull the trigger. Not every shot will the perfect shot. That's impossible. No one goes into the woods planning to make a marginal shot, but it will happen eventually, and you will have had a greater chance of tagging that animal and a clean kill, if your cartridge is well over the minimum required to get the job done. The more energy you can effectively bring into the equation the better. If you were to be shot, would you pick a 380 Auto, or a 50 BMG. I know what my choice would be.
I'm glad you make sure to use effective gear to mitigate recoil-related shooting issues. I've got a fair bit of experience with Past recoil shields, muzzle brakes, bench-mounted vises, etc, but of course the majority of hunters don't use any form of artificial recoil reducer. My previous comments about my observations were in reference to mostly average hunters that simply shoot their rifles. And without the Cabelas pad, a muzzle brake, bench vise, etc, assuming a sporter-weight rifle, I'd probably win the bet about the bruising.
But that's not the bet you made...
Why argue for a weak rifle that collectively, with rifle, scope, ammo, and time costs $thousands and would be worse than a better rifle if the same person had spent $29 on a pad?
Yes, it is. When talking about shooting rifles and how much recoil is too much, we generally assume no artificial recoil reducers. No rolled up towels, Past recoil shields, no Type-3 body armour placed between the buttstock and your shoulder. It’s simple. Flop down prone, fire 50 rounds from a sporter-weight .340 Mag with no muzzle brake, no recoil shield, no rolled up towel, and you’ll probably end up in some discomfort and be left with some bruising. If you want to use artificial recoil reducers, that’s fine, but that’s not what I was talking about when I mentioned the bruising.
How would a less over-powered rifle be “worse” if it produces equally acceptable results on game? If you want to use rifles that are too much for you, where you need a recoil shield just to manage the recoil, that’s fine with me. But don’t try to tell me that a guy needs a recoil shield and a giant rifle to be “better” at cleanly killing NA’s ungulates. I’ve seen too many critters hit the dirt from a variety of cartridges to buy that nonsense.
It's a bitch dragging the leadsled around the mountains.......
Funny thing about magnums, when you are young they are cool.... as you get a little older and wiser not so much. I have never been injured by magnums before. Yesterday I shot a full house 500gr 458 load and holy crap, it actually hurt.... just a couple years ago that was no problem
Yes, it is. When talking about shooting rifles and how much recoil is too much, we generally assume ....
Who's "we"? And no we don't. Anyone who assumes something illogical in a bet can't change the bet afterwards.
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.. I'm betting that if you were to shoot that rifle from prone or from the bench 50 times in a practice session (the average guy zeros and practices from the bench, remember), you'd see your first bruise. ...
That's how I shoot from the bench. I'm not talking about laying it some lead-sled or something. I'm talking about holding it normally and simply putting a cheap pad on that radically reduces felt recoil but doesn't change anything else. If your clients are afraid of recoil and shoot poorly, why don't you recommend that simple solution instead of becoming an enabler to their recoil terror?
On the spot, of course. I shoot an elk with a 6.5 creed, bang flop. You shoot an elk with a 338 Ultra Kick Ass Mag, bang flop. Which one was most effective?
Assuming a typical behind the shoulder shot placement you wont get too many bang flops with a Creedmoor. You may also not get any indication the animal was hit.
It's a bitch dragging the leadsled around the mountains.......
Funny thing about magnums, when you are young they are cool.... as you get a little older and wiser not so much. I have never been injured by magnums before. Yesterday I shot a full house 500gr 458 load and holy crap, it actually hurt.... just a couple years ago that was no problem
I've never used a lead-sled.
When my father was in his 40s, he shot my 300 WM a few times and swore that he would never do it again. Decades later, in his late 60s, he did it with the very same Cabela's pad my son is using in the pics above, and he was amazed by how comfortable shooting the same rifle was. That was eleven years ago, and he mentioned it again on a phone call last week. He sighted in and practiced for a hunt with a couple boxes of ammo; never shot over a MOA group; and most were half of that. No one is going get "beat up" by a hunting rifle in the field. If you haven't tried the simple cheap pads that cost less than a box of ammo for range shooting, you'll never believe how much of a difference it makes. If you do, you then will know.
Here's my friend on an elk hunt with me a couple years ago.
We had shot and sighted in together beforehand; he had never shot with a pad before; and was amazed at how it made his 7mm RM seem like a .223. He bought one for himself soon afterward.
Here's my younger son with his Past-brand version:
I'm glad you make sure to use effective gear to mitigate recoil-related shooting issues. I've got a fair bit of experience with Past recoil shields, muzzle brakes, bench-mounted vises, etc, but of course the majority of hunters don't use any form of artificial recoil reducer. My previous comments about my observations were in reference to mostly average hunters that simply shoot their rifles. And without the Cabelas pad, a muzzle brake, bench vise, etc, assuming a sporter-weight rifle, I'd probably win the bet about the bruising.
But that's not the bet you made...
Why argue for a weak rifle that collectively, with rifle, scope, ammo, and time costs $thousands and would be worse than a better rifle if the same person had spent $29 on a pad?
Yes, it is. When talking about shooting rifles and how much recoil is too much, we generally assume no artificial recoil reducers. No rolled up towels, Past recoil shields, no Type-3 body armour placed between the buttstock and your shoulder. It’s simple. Flop down prone, fire 50 rounds from a sporter-weight .340 Mag with no muzzle brake, no recoil shield, no rolled up towel, and you’ll probably end up in some discomfort and be left with some bruising. If you want to use artificial recoil reducers, that’s fine, but that’s not what I was talking about when I mentioned the bruising.
How would a less over-powered rifle be “worse” if it produces equally acceptable results on game? If you want to use rifles that are too much for you, where you need a recoil shield just to manage the recoil, that’s fine with me. But don’t try to tell me that a guy needs a recoil shield and a giant rifle to be “better” at cleanly killing NA’s ungulates. I’ve seen too many critters hit the dirt from a variety of cartridges to buy that nonsense.
It's a bitch dragging the leadsled around the mountains.......
Funny thing about magnums, when you are young they are cool.... as you get a little older and wiser not so much. I have never been injured by magnums before. Yesterday I shot a full house 500gr 458 load and holy crap, it actually hurt.... just a couple years ago that was no problem
Lot of truth to that. I'm crowding 45 and find myself wanting to deal with a hard kicker less. Chalk it up to getting soft in old age.
It's a bitch dragging the leadsled around the mountains.......
Funny thing about magnums, when you are young they are cool.... as you get a little older and wiser not so much. I have never been injured by magnums before. Yesterday I shot a full house 500gr 458 load and holy crap, it actually hurt.... just a couple years ago that was no problem
The older I get the more I appreciate lighter rifles, cartridges that will get the job done with no fuss and lighter recoil.
This year I hunted elk with my 280 Rem stoked with 150g ABLR @ 2898fps. At 7000 feet altitude, which is near the lowest we hunt, and MPBR zeroed for a 6" target, max rise above LOS is 3", MPBR is 398 yards and zero is at 252 yards. Recoil is calculated to be just under 18 ft-lbs. My 338WM uses a 225g AB @ 2770fps with a calculated 34.5 ft-lbs recoil. Granted, the 338 delivers more energy downrange, but do I really need it?
The longest range at my local club is 600 yards. I practice at it regularly and set my personal max range to 600 yards accordingly. At 600 yards the 338 retains 2065fps and 2130fpe compared to 2173fps and 1572fpe for the 280. While I like my 338WM and have taken multiple elk with it, the 280 will do the job with almost half the recoil and it is lighter to carry. It is a Win-Win-Win combo.
My Ruger "boat paddle" .30-06 shoots a 168g TTSX @ 2841fps with a calculated recoil of about 22 ft-lbs. At 600 yards and 7000 feet altitude it delivers 2019fps and 1521fpe. Another Win-Win-Win combo.
My 16.1" barreled Ruger Scout 308 Win weighs about 6.5 pounds sans scope and launches a 150g BT at 2699fps with a calculated recoil of 17 ft-lbs. Actual recoil is much less because it has a muzzle brake. At 7000 feet that load delivers 2110fps and 1483fpe (close enough to 1500 for my purposes) to 400 yards. Considering that in my 39 years of hunting Colorado big game only 3 of my shots have been past 350 yards, it is another Win-Win-Win combo.
The current shortages of reloading components, particularly brass, has put my plans of barreling a Savage 111 action/stock on hold. While I've looked at a lot of options for both standard and magnum cartridges, including things like a 28 Nosler, 300PRC and .375 Ruger, the more I think about it the more a 6.5PRC or 280 Rem AI makes sense. Both couple relatively low recoil with plenty of range for my needs.
On the spot, of course. I shoot an elk with a 6.5 creed, bang flop. You shoot an elk with a 338 Ultra Kick Ass Mag, bang flop. Which one was most effective?
Assuming a typical behind the shoulder shot placement you wont get too many bang flops with a Creedmoor. You may also not get any indication the animal was hit.
Okay you win. Your elk is more dead.
Fact of the matter is I've seen way more critters lost to big calibers with more powder than to the opposite. Does this mean bigger is less effective? Of course not. Its because the more experienced we get the more we realize that more powder is not needed. Experienced (better) shooters/hunters use less powder, on average.
On the spot, of course. I shoot an elk with a 6.5 creed, bang flop. You shoot an elk with a 338 Ultra Kick Ass Mag, bang flop. Which one was most effective?
Assuming a typical behind the shoulder shot placement you wont get too many bang flops with a Creedmoor. You may also not get any indication the animal was hit.
Okay you win. Your elk is more dead.
Fact of the matter is I've seen way more critters lost to big calibers with more powder than to the opposite. Does this mean bigger is less effective? Of course not. Its because the more experienced we get the more we realize that more powder is not needed. Experienced (better) shooters/hunters use less powder, on average.
That does it. You have convinced me to hunt elk with a 223.
At 68, and getting pretty soft, I’m pretty much limited to around 20 rounds from the bench (rifle to shoulder) and still maintain good groups with my rifle at around 60 ft/lbs. recoil. Yes, I could shoot more with a lighter kicking rifle.....but, 20 rounds from my hunting rifle should be more than sufficient for any day of bench shooting. If I feel the need to shoot a lot of rounds from the bench....then a lighter recoiling rifle would be in order. But.....what is being accomplished by shooting hundreds of rounds from a bench, unless you shoot bench-rest competition.
With a “hunting” rifle.....ammunition expenditure is much more useful, when fired from field positions! memtb
On the spot, of course. I shoot an elk with a 6.5 creed, bang flop. You shoot an elk with a 338 Ultra Kick Ass Mag, bang flop. Which one was most effective?
Assuming a typical behind the shoulder shot placement you wont get too many bang flops with a Creedmoor. You may also not get any indication the animal was hit.
Okay you win. Your elk is more dead.
Fact of the matter is I've seen way more critters lost to big calibers with more powder than to the opposite. Does this mean bigger is less effective? Of course not. Its because the more experienced we get the more we realize that more powder is not needed. Experienced (better) shooters/hunters use less powder, on average.
That does it. You have convinced me to hunt elk with a 223.
Or you could get real crazy and stick one with an arrow.
On the spot, of course. I shoot an elk with a 6.5 creed, bang flop. You shoot an elk with a 338 Ultra Kick Ass Mag, bang flop. Which one was most effective?
Assuming a typical behind the shoulder shot placement you wont get too many bang flops with a Creedmoor. You may also not get any indication the animal was hit.
Okay you win. Your elk is more dead.
Fact of the matter is I've seen way more critters lost to big calibers with more powder than to the opposite. Does this mean bigger is less effective? Of course not. Its because the more experienced we get the more we realize that more powder is not needed. Experienced (better) shooters/hunters use less powder, on average.
That does it. You have convinced me to hunt elk with a 223.
Or you could get real crazy and stick one with an arrow.
Since we are in a race to the bottom why not just use a spear?
Yes, it is. When talking about shooting rifles and how much recoil is too much, we generally assume ....
Who's "we"? And no we don't. Anyone who assumes something illogical in a bet can't change the bet afterwards.
We: the members of this forum and others that have been discussing this very topic for decades. The standard assumption is no artificial recoil reduction. You've heard for years that the average hunter can't handle the recoil from anything larger than about a .30-06, yes? That obviously means no muzzle brake, no Past recoil shield, no lead sled, etc. Come on. You know what I meant by my original statement. You're being deliberately obtuse, and are just trying to be argumentative.
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.. I'm betting that if you were to shoot that rifle from prone or from the bench 50 times in a practice session (the average guy zeros and practices from the bench, remember), you'd see your first bruise. ...
That's how I shoot from the bench. I'm not talking about laying it some lead-sled or something. I'm talking about holding it normally and simply putting a cheap pad on that radically reduces felt recoil but doesn't change anything else. If your clients are afraid of recoil and shoot poorly, why don't you recommend that simple solution instead of becoming an enabler to their recoil terror?
That's not shooting a rifle normally. If I shoot from the bench by sitting at the bench normally, and then simply pressing a button so my tripod-mounted 20mm Vulcan fires at the target, I guess by your logic I can handle the recoil from firing a 20mm Vulcan from the bench? Come on, man. This is ridiculous. This whole argument is like competing in the Special Olympics.
There is no need to recommend an excessively large rifle and a recoil shield to anyone, when a smaller rifle kills just as cleanly and plenty quick enough, IME. If a guy simply wants to use a large magnum and recoil shield, or even a 20mm, he can have at it! No skin off my back.
Look, if you want to shoot your big magnums with a Cabelas or Past recoil shield, that's fine with me. If you want to pretend like you won some twisted bet, then I'm happy for you.
I would use Remington model 721 300 H&H with a Leupold VXII 1.5x5x20mm duplex reticle. Shooting a Nolser 200gr. Partition handload that I inheraited from my father. .
This - although mine has a 3.5x10 and I might use 180's.
Remember back when hunting magazines were a thing? And every other issue had a Craig Boddington article about how elk were bulletproof and your kids and women needed at least the bare minimum 7 mag but men should be shooting 300s, 338s, or his favorite the 8 mag?
I told my dad and uncle about what I’d read as an impressionable young fellow and they went “huh”. My uncle then showed me the mason jar full of ivories in his gun closet, products of his plain old 270. Dad had a handful in his desk drawer, all fallen to his matching plain old 270. The one “magic trick” they used was the 150 Partition, oh and shooting them in the front half.
[quote=MarineHawk]That's not shooting a rifle normally. If I shoot from the bench by sitting at the bench normally, and then simply pressing a button so my tripod-mounted 20mm Vulcan fires at the target, I guess by your logic I can handle the recoil from firing a 20mm Vulcan from the bench? Come on, man. This is ridiculous. This whole argument is like competing in the Special Olympics.
There is no need to recommend an excessively large rifle and a recoil shield to anyone, when a smaller rifle kills just as cleanly and plenty quick enough, IME. If a guy simply wants to use a large magnum and recoil shield, or even a 20mm, he can have at it! No skin off my back.
Look, if you want to shoot your big magnums with a Cabelas or Past recoil shield, that's fine with me. If you want to pretend like you won some twisted bet, then I'm happy for you.
You’re absurd. I’m not shooting anything off a tripod, just shooting normally with a 1/4” pad over my shoulder. I’ve shot that thing countless times without a pad with no bruising, including when I forgot to bring the pad. Look at the video I posted above (here, again: https://i.imgur.com/xMUu4AG.mp4); no pad on; no bruising. It just allows you to shoot NORMALLY with EVEN less recoil. I don’t need to use the pad, but it doesn’t do anything negative when shooting NORMALLY. I suggest that your client who allegedly go hunting after shooting 10” groups with a .300, but purportedly shoots with NASA-like precision when you hand him a rifle you purportedly told them has less recoil, might want to try something to reduce felt recoil while shooting NORMALLY.
Here’s my son again shooting a 300 WM normally with a thin pad that just reduces the recoil.
At 16, he’s consistently under a MOA.
Big difference: I don’t care, and am not am insecure about, what you shoot. But if anyone claims that anything more potent than a Creddmore might be a viable option, you get you panties in a wad and get all offended that your way is not the only way.
Just curious here. But pad or no pad why would one want or need to shoot scores of rounds through their elk rifle off the bench? It’s literally the least beneficial shooting practice one can get unless you elk hunt from the bench.
I can tell you how many rounds I’ve put through my normal “elk rifle” in the last three years from the bench. 6, two per year to verify zero. Not to say I haven’t put a bunch more through it but they’ve all been from field positions.
Just curious here. But pad or no pad why would one want or need to shoot scores of rounds through their elk rifle off the bench? It’s literally the least beneficial shooting practice one can get unless you elk hunt from the bench.
I can tell you how many rounds I’ve put through my normal “elk rifle” in the last three years from the bench. 6, two per year to verify zero. Not to say I haven’t put a bunch more through it but they’ve all been from field positions.
Most on here don't understand this post. Bravo....
Just curious here. But pad or no pad why would one want or need to shoot scores of rounds through their elk rifle off the bench? It’s literally the least beneficial shooting practice one can get unless you elk hunt from the bench.
I can tell you how many rounds I’ve put through my normal “elk rifle” in the last three years from the bench. 6, two per year to verify zero. Not to say I haven’t put a bunch more through it but they’ve all been from field positions.
Most on here don't understand this post. Bravo....
Big difference: I don’t care, and am not am insecure about, what you shoot. But if anyone claims that anything more potent than a Creddmore might be a viable option, you get you panties in a wad and get all offended that your way is not the only way.
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
If a guy simply wants to use a large magnum and recoil shield, or even a 20mm, he can have at it! No skin off my back...
Look, if you want to shoot your big magnums with a Cabelas or Past recoil shield, that's fine with me.
Yeah, I’m clearly extremely offended by your choice of rifle! Laughing...
Once sighted in, I shoot offhand, prone, from a shooting stick, kneeling, etc. ... at the range.
If someone empties their rifle missing the game animal each shot because of the recoil. All that is needed according to Jordan is to hand them your rifle and simply say that it doesn't kick as much and the next shot will be center of chest
I lately have been hunting deer with a .308, which is more-than-adequate for the task.
I know there are countless times when a modest rifle will do basically as well as a more-powerful one—both with good bullets and placement—on most animals.
However, I’m not so certain on some situations, including one that was important to me.
The bullet on the left below is a .338 caliber 225gr TTSX that, impacted a moose at about 3,000 fps; went through about four feet of moose; and, at the very end, smashed through its off-side shoulder before coming to rest under the hide.
The bullet on the right is a .243 one that was stopped by a modest-sized deer that my son shot (different bullet construction, I know).
The moose collapsed nearby. If he had gone much further, he might have died in this lagoon, ruining my day.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
Just my own experience and opinion.
My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition.
I have heard countless stories from several guides and outfitters over the years about the rodeos they have seen by hunters coming to camp with magnums they can't shoot. Sometimes the stories end with the hunters going home with their tags. Others where they were able to fill their tag after putting down their rifles and shooting a few practice rounds with the guides rifle, something like 257 Roberts or 7-08.
On the contrary, I have never once heard of a guide or outfitter complain about a hunter that showed up to deer or elk camp under gunned.
Am I saying you should trade in your magnums for 223's, of course not. Use what gives you confidence. But whatever you bring to the field should be a rig that you have become proficient with through practice. The average Joe Hunter will not be able to do that with one of the various Smoke'em Mags.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
Just my own experience and opinion.
My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition.
I have heard countless stories from several guides and outfitters over the years about the rodeos they have seen by hunters coming to camp with magnums they can't shoot. Sometimes the stories end with the hunters going home with their tags. Others where they were able to fill their tag after putting down their rifles and shooting a few practice rounds with the guides rifle, something like 257 Roberts or 7-08.
On the contrary, I have never once heard of a guide or outfitter complain about a hunter that showed up to deer or elk camp under gunned.
Am I saying you should trade in your magnums for 223's, of course not. Use what gives you confidence. But whatever you bring to the field should be a rig that you have become proficient with through practice. The average Joe Hunter will not be able to do that with one of the various Smoke'em Mags.
Huge difference in size of a moose in the lower 48 and an Alaskan Yukon moose
What I've learned about pissing contests is that they are a young man's game.
This discussion reminds me of some stories I've read of elephant hunting at the turn of the last century, before cordite was in much use, and so some elephant hunters, in a desire to improve the effectiveness of their equipment, were using bigger and bigger lead balls in bigger and bigger bored black powder rifles. I particularly recall a hunter using a 4-gauge with some ridiculous charge of black and a quarter-pound ball. He had a misfire on a broadside shot, and rapidly passed the rifle to one of his gun-bearers, who, instead of just recapping it, dumped another charge and ball down onto the first load, then recapped. After the running broadside shot with his backup gun had no effect, and the huge bull turned and charged, the hunter swapped guns with his gun-bearer to the primary rifle, not realizing it had been double-charged. The bull took both quarter-pound balls in the forehead at very close range, which reportedly stopped him instantly but didn't kill him. The hunter was brought to consciousness by his various employees laying on his stomach. He already couldn't see out of his severely bruised and swelling right eye, and his right collar bone was dislocated. He spent many weeks recovering. From what I recall, he wasn't a young man.
These arguments over "enough" gun have so many caveats in them that I keep wondering which cartridge works the best in a jammed rifle after a misfire to swiftly bring down that trophy bull, if the hunter only has that retreating "Texas heart shot."
The elk that ran the farthest for me was shot with a 140 SST .270.. Perfect lung shot at a calm animal.. She probably ran 150 to 200 yards., Glad she did not run into rough country..
Before he died, I had a correspondence with George Hoffman, African PH and developer of the 416 Hoffman (which Remington later modified and released as the 416 Rem Mag). Mr. Hoffman (like myself) was not averse to Magnums, but told me he didn't necessarily see the need for them on elk-sized game, and that all 50+ elk he'd taken in his life had been with the 270 Win.
One thing I will say is that just because someones experience may be long (or short) it may also be incredibly narrow. Sort of like the guy that may have killed a pile of elk, but never ventured beyond magnums. How would he know smaller cartridges might work well? His confirmation bias apparently didn't allow that kind of thinking.
For my part I read all the 1980's stuff by the likes of Boddington, so when I eventually moved to Montana one of the rounds in my battery was the 338 WM. I used it on the first few elk I killed, including a dandy 6pt I tracked to his bed and shot at 50 yards. No surprise it worked. But what I noticed was many of my friends who grew up here used stuff like the 243 and 270 - cartridges they knew well and had used since childhood. As I killed more elk and saw more elk killed I started changing my thinking. That evolution led me to cartridges more fun to shoot, like the 6.5 CM, 7-08, 308 and 270. I've seen more elk killed with the 270/130 combo than any other cartridge. It works because it's fun to shoot, but still has a nice reserve of power. I think the same can be said of the 6.5CM, 7-08 and 308. They're truly "all around" big game rounds.
I've tried to keep an open mind, and as a result have given a variety of cartridges a try. What I found - and what I've often said - is "cartridges are more alike than different." Punch the lungs with a decent expanding bullet and it's light's out. Hit around the edges and you've got a rodeo on your hands, no matter what you hit the animal with.
Threads like this do remind me that testosterone and ego is a more powerful force than logic or experience... and also that those with the most testosterone and/or least experience are often the loudest voice in the room.
Like some others, I don't think there's a "best." And there's a lot to be said for whatever's available at the time.
When we moved to Colorado in the late '80s, I had recently inherited wifey's Dad's M70 in .338 Win Mag... so when it came time to go out for elk, that's what I carried... or else I carried another family pass down, an M71 in .348 Win.
Polling folks I met out there, the .30-'06 and .270 Win were what 90-95% of resident hunters carried... only a few mentioned any of the magnums... while non-residents piled onto the .338 Win Mag, the .300 Win Mag, the 7mm Rem Mag, and I think I met one guy who used a .300 Weatherby.
My own next smaller choice was a third pass-down, an M99 in .300 Savage, and I reckoned that would have been fine but I'd already used that a lot for eastern deer hunting. It also seemed like my next smaller .25-'06 (that I got when I was focused on pronghorn) would work, too.
But then again, I needed an excuse to carry the .338 or the .348...
What is the muzzleloader equivalent of the creedmoor? My 50 cal musket with full charge of blackhorn 209 and a 300 grain bullet has more recoil than any rifle in my safe. I wanna run to mommy every time I shoot it!!! My testosterone levels are low and I don’t have any need to be macho anymore. A 36 cal Kentucky rifle!! 😂😂
"Carolina Hunter. My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition."
The quickest kills I have ever made, have been with a 300 Winchester Magnum, as have been the hardest shots.
Petersons Hunting "For the fella that can handle the recoil, the .300 Win. Mag. is arguably the best worldwide big-game cartridge there is." Can't be any clearer than that,
Field and Stream "In purely practical terms, no elk cartridge equals the beautifully balanced .300 Win. Mag. It offers bull-thumping authority at a recoil level just at the cusp of what most serious shooters can handle."
Had a long love affair with a 300 win, bought a brand new bdl when I was 14, killed alotta deer, elk, bear and grouse with that rifle. Recoil was so horrendous I could shoot the heads off lotsa grouse with it.. 🤭🤭 bought a 3-9 leupold the same day I got the rifle. doh!!
Once sighted in, I shoot offhand, prone, from a shooting stick, kneeling, etc. ... at the range.
If someone empties their rifle missing the game animal each shot because of the recoil. All that is needed according to Jordan is to hand them your rifle and simply say that it doesn't kick as much and the next shot will be center of chest
Amazing
Don’t put words in my mouth, John. I didn’t say that’s a general solution to recoil aversion or flinching. I said it worked in that one particular case.
Once sighted in, I shoot offhand, prone, from a shooting stick, kneeling, etc. ... at the range.
If someone empties their rifle missing the game animal each shot because of the recoil. All that is needed according to Jordan is to hand them your rifle and simply say that it doesn't kick as much and the next shot will be center of chest
Amazing
Don’t put words in my mouth, John. I didn’t say that’s a general solution to recoil aversion or flinching. I said it worked in that one particular case.
I don’t care what anyone shoots or how well they shoot a magnum rifle. I sure could find someone more deserving than Jordan to be a smart azz to though. Everything I’ve ever read has been a nice answer or opinion that has came from experience. No pushing his choice of equipment and doesn’t run around ranting about others who choose something different. Carry on.
Had a long love affair with a 300 win, bought a brand new bdl when I was 14, killed alotta deer, elk, bear and grouse with that rifle. Recoil was so horrendous I could shoot the heads off lotsa grouse with it.. 🤭🤭 bought a 3-9 leupold the same day I got the rifle. doh!!
I did the same thing when I bought the first rifle I could afford, but at age 19.
It's the one my 16-yr-old shoots proficiently now.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
Just my own experience and opinion.
My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition.
I have heard countless stories from several guides and outfitters over the years about the rodeos they have seen by hunters coming to camp with magnums they can't shoot. Sometimes the stories end with the hunters going home with their tags. Others where they were able to fill their tag after putting down their rifles and shooting a few practice rounds with the guides rifle, something like 257 Roberts or 7-08.
On the contrary, I have never once heard of a guide or outfitter complain about a hunter that showed up to deer or elk camp under gunned.
Am I saying you should trade in your magnums for 223's, of course not. Use what gives you confidence. But whatever you bring to the field should be a rig that you have become proficient with through practice. The average Joe Hunter will not be able to do that with one of the various Smoke'em Mags.
+1
Great post.
Several weeks ago I watched a good-sized bull moose collapse at the shot to a frontal, non-CNS impact from a 127 LRX/6.5 CM that penetrated several feet. There’s nothing magical about the terminal performance of bullets launched by the 6.5 CM; it does about as well as several other mid-sized cartridges like the 7-08, .270, .308, etc, and with the right bullet they are perfectly sufficient on even very large game. There are a lot of factors influencing how quickly game falls to the shot or gives an indication of a hit, and caliber/impact velocity is one of them somewhere down the list.
It’s getting serious when Field and Stream gets quoted!
Originally Posted by elkmen1
Field and Stream "In purely practical terms, no elk cartridge equals the beautifully balanced .300 Win. Mag. It offers bull-thumping authority at a recoil level just at the cusp of what most serious shooters can handle."
Before he died, I had a correspondence with George Hoffman, African PH and developer of the 416 Hoffman (which Remington later modified and released as the 416 Rem Mag). Mr. Hoffman (like myself) was not averse to Magnums, but told me he didn't necessarily see the need for them on elk-sized game, and that all 50+ elk he'd taken in his life had been with the 270 Win.
One thing I will say is that just because someones experience may be long (or short) it may also be incredibly narrow. Sort of like the guy that may have killed a pile of elk, but never ventured beyond magnums. How would he know smaller cartridges might work well? His confirmation bias apparently didn't allow that kind of thinking.
For my part I read all the 1980's stuff by the likes of Boddington, so when I eventually moved to Montana one of the rounds in my battery was the 338 WM. I used it on the first few elk I killed, including a dandy 6pt I tracked to his bed and shot at 50 yards. No surprise it worked. But what I noticed was many of my friends who grew up here used stuff like the 243 and 270 - cartridges they knew well and had used since childhood. As I killed more elk and saw more elk killed I started changing my thinking. That evolution led me to cartridges more fun to shoot, like the 6.5 CM, 7-08, 308 and 270. I've seen more elk killed with the 270/130 combo than any other cartridge. It works because it's fun to shoot, but still has a nice reserve of power. I think the same can be said of the 6.5CM, 7-08 and 308. They're truly "all around" big game rounds.
I've tried to keep an open mind, and as a result have given a variety of cartridges a try. What I found - and what I've often said - is "cartridges are more alike than different." Punch the lungs with a decent expanding bullet and it's light's out. Hit around the edges and you've got a rodeo on your hands, no matter what you hit the animal with.
Threads like this do remind me that testosterone and ego is a more powerful force than logic or experience... and also that those with the most testosterone and/or least experience are often the loudest voice in the room.
Happy New Year all...
Also a great post. My experiential trajectory has been very similar, and the evolution of my opinion on a wide variety of cartridges on game is much the same.
The smallest I have used is the pip-squeak 308 win in a 600 Remington - the mountains were steep! The largest and most often used is a 338 win Mag with 250 grain Partitions. There are no flies on the 338 with 250 grain partitions! I've had 4 ea. 338's and even though I had a 700 338 and a controlled feed 70, my favorite was a post 64 push feed. I no longer own a 338.
Another rifle I've used is the 350 RM in a Remington 600 with 250 grain Partitions - if I carry that rifle again I'll probably just use 250 grain Hornady Interlocks.
If I am lucky enough to draw another tag, I'll be using the 300 Weatherby in a Remington 700 with a synthetic stock and a 6x scope (or if I'm stuck with a variable it will be set on 6x). I'll be pushing 200 grain partitions out the end of the tube.
I suppose some would say that the 300 Weatherby/200 gr partitions is over kill. But I'm not as good a hunter as many and I don't get bulls standing sideways for me often enough.
BTW: I am not even close to an elk hunting expert as many on the fire are. But I used to live in elk country and used to see them on a daily basis. I shot my biggest bull a 1/4 mile from my home back then.
Some have already mentioned cartridge choice is irrelevant within reason. Whether they are carrying a Ruger American .243 with a Simmons 4X, or a Gap built .300 with a Nightforce, it’s going to be the same guys year after year knocking down mature bulls.
By the way, you got my wheels turning on a Creemoor’esq ML.
Originally Posted by Judman
M posts aren’t great??? Slm’s aren’t great??? Sheesh
I get it that some guys bash magnums. I currently own a 300 RUM, 300 Win mag, 7mm weatherby and a 375 H&H. But in also own and hunt with a 25-06, 280, 7mm-08, 308 and a 30-06. The problem I have is guys saying the performance is the same between magnums and standards. It's not, and never has been. Higher velocity changes the way bullets perform, and it destroys more tissue. The wound from a 7mm-08 does not look like the wound from a 300 rum, etc. I think we can all agree on that point. As such it's not a stretch to then admit that given the fact the animals succumb to a loss of blood pressure and organ damage is what causes said loss, that a magnum does indeed kill more abruptly in many cases. The caveat being that projectiles are similar etc.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
Just my own experience and opinion.
My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition.
I have heard countless stories from several guides and outfitters over the years about the rodeos they have seen by hunters coming to camp with magnums they can't shoot. Sometimes the stories end with the hunters going home with their tags. Others where they were able to fill their tag after putting down their rifles and shooting a few practice rounds with the guides rifle, something like 257 Roberts or 7-08.
On the contrary, I have never once heard of a guide or outfitter complain about a hunter that showed up to deer or elk camp under gunned.
Am I saying you should trade in your magnums for 223's, of course not. Use what gives you confidence. But whatever you bring to the field should be a rig that you have become proficient with through practice. The average Joe Hunter will not be able to do that with one of the various Smoke'em Mags.
+1
Great post.
Several weeks ago I watched a good-sized bull moose collapse at the shot to a frontal, non-CNS impact from a 127 LRX/6.5 CM that penetrated several feet. There’s nothing magical about the terminal performance of bullets launched by the 6.5 CM; it does about as well as several other mid-sized cartridges like the 7-08, .270, .308, etc, and with the right bullet they are perfectly sufficient on even very large game. There are a lot of factors influencing how quickly game falls to the shot or gives an indication of a hit, and caliber/impact velocity is one of them somewhere down the list.
Jordan, I watched my kids shoot two mule deer this year with the 6.5 creed and 120gr GMX bullets. Both shots where at very close range and neither was killed very abruptly. My daughters deer dropped at the shot, but got up and staggered a short distance. Flopped around for a far bit before kicking the bucket. My sons deer ran off like nothing happened to it before dropping 75 yards away. No blood was found until just before it dropped from a broadside double lung shot at under 50 yards. That's not magic to me. Magic is a 165 AB and 3450fps. With equal placement both of those deer would have been dead at the shot.
Some have already mentioned cartridge choice is irrelevant within reason. Whether they are carrying a Ruger American .243 with a Simmons 4X, or a Gap built .300 with a Nightforce, it’s going to be the same guys year after year knocking down mature bulls.
By the way, you got my wheels turning on a Creemoor’esq ML.
Originally Posted by Judman
M posts aren’t great??? Slm’s aren’t great??? Sheesh
Me too brother, I get a kick out of “the great posts” though, they’re only great when they suit your views/opinions!! Haha
Some have already mentioned cartridge choice is irrelevant within reason. Whether they are carrying a Ruger American .243 with a Simmons 4X, or a Gap built .300 with a Nightforce, it’s going to be the same guys year after year knocking down mature bulls.
By the way, you got my wheels turning on a Creemoor’esq ML.
Originally Posted by Judman
M posts aren’t great??? Slm’s aren’t great??? Sheesh
Me too brother, I get a kick out of “the great posts” though, they’re only great when they suit your views/opinions!! Haha
Yup, very true! My opinion of a great post might not be the same as your opinion of a great post. But well-written posts that reflect the knowledge I’ve acquired through experience often get a “great post” from me. Not that it means much, but it’s my way of giving kudos on occasion.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
Just my own experience and opinion.
My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition.
I have heard countless stories from several guides and outfitters over the years about the rodeos they have seen by hunters coming to camp with magnums they can't shoot. Sometimes the stories end with the hunters going home with their tags. Others where they were able to fill their tag after putting down their rifles and shooting a few practice rounds with the guides rifle, something like 257 Roberts or 7-08.
On the contrary, I have never once heard of a guide or outfitter complain about a hunter that showed up to deer or elk camp under gunned.
Am I saying you should trade in your magnums for 223's, of course not. Use what gives you confidence. But whatever you bring to the field should be a rig that you have become proficient with through practice. The average Joe Hunter will not be able to do that with one of the various Smoke'em Mags.
+1
Great post.
Several weeks ago I watched a good-sized bull moose collapse at the shot to a frontal, non-CNS impact from a 127 LRX/6.5 CM that penetrated several feet. There’s nothing magical about the terminal performance of bullets launched by the 6.5 CM; it does about as well as several other mid-sized cartridges like the 7-08, .270, .308, etc, and with the right bullet they are perfectly sufficient on even very large game. There are a lot of factors influencing how quickly game falls to the shot or gives an indication of a hit, and caliber/impact velocity is one of them somewhere down the list.
Jordan, I watched my kids shoot two mule deer this year with the 6.5 creed and 120gr GMX bullets. Both shots where at very close range and neither was killed very abruptly. My daughters deer dropped at the shot, but got up and staggered a short distance. Flopped around for a far bit before kicking the bucket. My sons deer ran off like nothing happened to it before dropping 75 yards away. No blood was found until just before it dropped from a broadside double lung shot at under 50 yards. That's not magic to me. Magic is a 165 AB and 3450fps. With equal placement both of those deer would have been dead at the shot.
Sounds almost identical to the reaction of two MD I watched get shot this fall at about 180 meters by a 7mm Rem MAGNUM ( ) and 145 LRX at 3200 fps, both broadside. Like I said, there’s nothing magical about the terminal performance of the 6.5 CM. Nor the 7RM. Nor the .300RUM. Short of a CNS or heavy bone hit, there’s no telling how an individual animal will react to a broadside, behind-the-shoulder shot. Some fall, some run. Percentages of runners may vary with different bullets and different impact velocities, but there is no bullet or cartridge that guarantees DRT with a non-CNS, non-heavy bone hit.
*I'm not an elk hunter, I have zero interest in them but read for the sake of knowledge*
Question - what would be considered an acceptable amount of movement for an animal that sustains a non CNS shot?
I mean - people say "they didn't die quickly" but I've seen deer go 30 yards missing the top 1/3 of their heart after taking an Amax to the shoulder/chest. Dead before he heard the shot as there's no way to survive that at all - the will to live varies animal to animal even in the same species.
Just wondering of some of the difference in opinion on "took too long to die" vs "he died pretty quick" comes from that?
I've been hunting now 30 years so not so long but my longest tracking of any animal gun/bow was 45 yards so I'm trying to see where I fit what others think etc.
I don’t care what anyone shoots or how well they shoot a magnum rifle. I sure could find someone more deserving than Jordan to be a smart azz to though. Everything I’ve ever read has been a nice answer or opinion that has came from experience. No pushing his choice of equipment and doesn’t run around ranting about others who choose something different. Carry on.
Teal----so much depends upon terrain,, cover, time of day, etc. What's acceptable with snow on the ground, can cost you an animal, when it's dry. I have hunted in places where if an animal runs a 100 yards, it may be lost. Other times that's no big deal. I want them on the ground where I can see them as soon as possible. I can well afford to lose 10 lbs of meat, when the loss of a whole elk is at steak. I have lost very few, and those were lost in steep, ugly, dry ground.
Teal----so much depends upon terrain,, cover, time of day, etc. What's acceptable with snow on the ground, can cost you an animal, when it's dry. I have hunted in places where if an animal runs a 100 yards, it may be lost. Other times that's no big deal. I want them on the ground where I can see them as soon as possible. I can well afford to lose 10 lbs of meat, when the loss of a whole elk is at steak. I have lost very few, and those were lost in steep, ugly, dry ground.
LOL, nice pun
As a general rule, if you want DRT, the size of the gun is no guarantee. Shoot CNS or bone with a bullet that can penetrate to the intended target and destroy it. Simple.
What would have happened if I had had been using a .243 or even .270? I honestly don’t know. I might have pulled it off. But, at the time especially, I am glad I didn’t have to find out.
Just my own experience and opinion.
My bet is the 270 would have worked well. Mule_Deer has mentioned several times that the quickest kill he has ever witnessed on a moose was made by his wife using a 270 and 150 Partition. Renowned magnum lover, Craig Boddington, has stated one of his quickest bull elk kills was made with a 270 and 150 Nosler Partition.
I have heard countless stories from several guides and outfitters over the years about the rodeos they have seen by hunters coming to camp with magnums they can't shoot. Sometimes the stories end with the hunters going home with their tags. Others where they were able to fill their tag after putting down their rifles and shooting a few practice rounds with the guides rifle, something like 257 Roberts or 7-08.
On the contrary, I have never once heard of a guide or outfitter complain about a hunter that showed up to deer or elk camp under gunned.
Am I saying you should trade in your magnums for 223's, of course not. Use what gives you confidence. But whatever you bring to the field should be a rig that you have become proficient with through practice. The average Joe Hunter will not be able to do that with one of the various Smoke'em Mags.
+1
Great post.
Several weeks ago I watched a good-sized bull moose collapse at the shot to a frontal, non-CNS impact from a 127 LRX/6.5 CM that penetrated several feet. There’s nothing magical about the terminal performance of bullets launched by the 6.5 CM; it does about as well as several other mid-sized cartridges like the 7-08, .270, .308, etc, and with the right bullet they are perfectly sufficient on even very large game. There are a lot of factors influencing how quickly game falls to the shot or gives an indication of a hit, and caliber/impact velocity is one of them somewhere down the list.
Jordan, I watched my kids shoot two mule deer this year with the 6.5 creed and 120gr GMX bullets. Both shots where at very close range and neither was killed very abruptly. My daughters deer dropped at the shot, but got up and staggered a short distance. Flopped around for a far bit before kicking the bucket. My sons deer ran off like nothing happened to it before dropping 75 yards away. No blood was found until just before it dropped from a broadside double lung shot at under 50 yards. That's not magic to me. Magic is a 165 AB and 3450fps. With equal placement both of those deer would have been dead at the shot.
Sounds almost identical to the reaction of two MD I watched get shot this fall at about 180 meters by a 7mm Rem MAGNUM ( ) and 145 LRX at 3200 fps, both broadside. Like I said, there’s nothing magical about the terminal performance of the 6.5 CM. Nor the 7RM. Nor the .300RUM. Short of a CNS or heavy bone hit, there’s no telling how an individual animal will react to a broadside, behind-the-shoulder shot. Some fall, some run. Percentages of runners may vary with different bullets and different impact velocities, but there is no bullet or cartridge that guarantees DRT with a non-CNS, non-heavy bone hit.
There are certainly no guarantees, but you can stack the deck IMO. And FWIW a 150 BT out of a 7mm rem mag would likely put them on the turf sooner.
Teal----so much depends upon terrain,, cover, time of day, etc. What's acceptable with snow on the ground, can cost you an animal, when it's dry. I have hunted in places where if an animal runs a 100 yards, it may be lost. Other times that's no big deal. I want them on the ground where I can see them as soon as possible. I can well afford to lose 10 lbs of meat, when the loss of a whole elk is at steak. I have lost very few, and those were lost in steep, ugly, dry ground.
I think that's where I'm at in this discussion.
Shoot an elk with a 7-08 and 140 NAB (seems to be a reasonable elk choice) and it goes 45 yards and keels over. Shoot an elk with a 338 and it goes 15 yards and keels over.
One "killed better" I guess if that yard stick is how far they went after taking the shot but I don't know of my reasonable 45 yards would be considered reasonable for someone else - even in the same exact terrain where the elk ended up dead.
Broad generalizations probably do none of us any good and like anything - stating "X is best" without context which can and does change rapidly - likely is a fool's errand.
Teal----so much depends upon terrain,, cover, time of day, etc. What's acceptable with snow on the ground, can cost you an animal, when it's dry. I have hunted in places where if an animal runs a 100 yards, it may be lost. Other times that's no big deal. I want them on the ground where I can see them as soon as possible. I can well afford to lose 10 lbs of meat, when the loss of a whole elk is at steak. I have lost very few, and those were lost in steep, ugly, dry ground.
I think that's where I'm at in this discussion.
Shoot an elk with a 7-08 and 140 NAB (seems to be a reasonable elk choice) and it goes 45 yards and keels over. Shoot an elk with a 338 and it goes 15 yards and keels over.
One "killed better" I guess if that yard stick is how far they went after taking the shot but I don't know of my reasonable 45 yards would be considered reasonable for someone else - even in the same exact terrain where the elk ended up dead.
Broad generalizations probably do none of us any good and like anything - stating "X is best" without context which can and does change rapidly - likely is a fool's errand.
Generally if you are hunting elk on public land in the high country you want them down ASAP. For several reasons. One they can go into places that are miserable to field dress and pack them out of and two with other hunters around you run the real risk of someone tagging the elk you shot. Nothing makes guys go full retard like elk. Conversely on a private land hunt you could kill them with a 22-250 all day long in many cases.
I tried a 22-250 on a very large mule deer Buck, in Idaho many, many years ago. It was the last week of the late season, and I was in the Desert south of Arco calling coyotes when this big buck came in to see what was going on, At 100 yards he stopped broadside to me, and as I had not filled my deer tag, I took advantage of the opportunity. Two shots in the near shoulder showed an obvious effect, but he gathered himself up and headed south. In flat open country he was easy to see and just a little snow helped me stay with him. An hour or so later I caught up to him while he was laying watching his back trail. Most any larger centerfire would have broken that shoulder and saved me a long stressful chase, but I did recover and eat him.
The fact that this thread has gone on for 40+ pages indicates that average calibers have made a significant inroad into the magnum debate. The elk hunting articles of the last 40-50 years spoke to the necessity of larger calibers. But midwestern and eastern deer hunters found success with 308's, 270's and 30-06's. How could that be? The need to put a reasonably well constructed bullet in the heart/lungs convinced many that elk were just large deer. Despite using premium bullets, placement was paramount and the ultimate game changer. The other factor was to enjoy the cat and mouse game and not to shoot farther then your confidence level.
Teal----so much depends upon terrain,, cover, time of day, etc. What's acceptable with snow on the ground, can cost you an animal, when it's dry. I have hunted in places where if an animal runs a 100 yards, it may be lost. Other times that's no big deal. I want them on the ground where I can see them as soon as possible. I can well afford to lose 10 lbs of meat, when the loss of a whole elk is at steak. I have lost very few, and those were lost in steep, ugly, dry ground.
I think that's where I'm at in this discussion.
Shoot an elk with a 7-08 and 140 NAB (seems to be a reasonable elk choice) and it goes 45 yards and keels over. Shoot an elk with a 338 and it goes 15 yards and keels over.
One "killed better" I guess if that yard stick is how far they went after taking the shot but I don't know of my reasonable 45 yards would be considered reasonable for someone else - even in the same exact terrain where the elk ended up dead.
Broad generalizations probably do none of us any good and like anything - stating "X is best" without context which can and does change rapidly - likely is a fool's errand.
Generally if you are hunting elk on public land in the high country you want them down ASAP. For several reasons. One they can go into places that are miserable to field dress and pack them out of and two with other hunters around you run the real risk of someone tagging the elk you shot. Nothing makes guys go full retard like elk. Conversely on a private land hunt you could kill them with a 22-250 all day long in many cases.
Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Teal
Originally Posted by elkmen1
Teal----so much depends upon terrain,, cover, time of day, etc. What's acceptable with snow on the ground, can cost you an animal, when it's dry. I have hunted in places where if an animal runs a 100 yards, it may be lost. Other times that's no big deal. I want them on the ground where I can see them as soon as possible. I can well afford to lose 10 lbs of meat, when the loss of a whole elk is at steak. I have lost very few, and those were lost in steep, ugly, dry ground.
I think that's where I'm at in this discussion.
Shoot an elk with a 7-08 and 140 NAB (seems to be a reasonable elk choice) and it goes 45 yards and keels over. Shoot an elk with a 338 and it goes 15 yards and keels over.
One "killed better" I guess if that yard stick is how far they went after taking the shot but I don't know of my reasonable 45 yards would be considered reasonable for someone else - even in the same exact terrain where the elk ended up dead.
Broad generalizations probably do none of us any good and like anything - stating "X is best" without context which can and does change rapidly - likely is a fool's errand.
Generally if you are hunting elk on public land in the high country you want them down ASAP. For several reasons. One they can go into places that are miserable to field dress and pack them out of and two with other hunters around you run the real risk of someone tagging the elk you shot. Nothing makes guys go full retard like elk. Conversely on a private land hunt you could kill them with a 22-250 all day long in many cases.
Some good info above by those who obviously btdt.
Here's a couple shots of a well known public land elk unit in CO on the west slope. It has the potential for a chance at a trophy class bull. Some of the late hunts offered for this unit take well over 20yrs to draw. The snow melted and it's late season. If you shoot a bull along this canyon it's about 200-30yds in some spots, not bad. But I was told by several who killed elk here if your bull makes it over the edge there's a good chance you won't recover it. Would you choose a 243 with NPs for this hunt? I sure didn't.
It's easy for some on here to brag in a chest thumping manner about how they used this or that so their opinion trumps all. But their experience might be limited to their local home turf where the elk were killed in less rugged country and/or private land with the benefit of snow.
Just saying the quicker you put a bull down the better if hunting rough country, and save the 243 with good bullets for the easy elk hunts. If you can't shoot a magnum proficiently then man up and admit it, then choose a good 270 or 3006 and learn to shoot it.
The best cartridge for elk is the one you have while elk hunting. That said I’m a fan of 30 caliber cartridges, in my case a bunch of elk have been taken with them. My Wife still uses the 243 Her Dad gave her when She was 14 but she only takes “perfect” shots.
The fact that this thread has gone on for 40+ pages indicates that average calibers have made a significant inroad into the magnum debate. The elk hunting articles of the last 40-50 years spoke to the necessity of larger calibers. But midwestern and eastern deer hunters found success with 308's, 270's and 30-06's. How could that be? The need to put a reasonably well constructed bullet in the heart/lungs convinced many that elk were just large deer. Despite using premium bullets, placement was paramount and the ultimate game changer. The other factor was to enjoy the cat and mouse game and not to shoot farther then your confidence level.
I dont know the mental gymnastics one has to go through to suggest that because one thinks a magnum may be a better mouse trap that they also believe a non magnum won't work. They in fact will work, just not as well and we are talking about what's best here, not what is adequate. Former board members like Allen Day and BobinNH would tell you flat out that magnums crumpled elk better than standards and both had plenty of experience.
Here's a couple shots of a well known public land elk unit in CO on the west slope. It has the potential for a chance at a trophy class bull. Some of the late hunts offered for this unit take well over 20yrs to draw. The snow melted and it's late season. If you shoot a bull along this canyon it's about 200-30yds in some spots, not bad. But I was told by several who killed elk here if your bull makes it over the edge there's a good chance you won't recover it. Would you choose a 243 with NPs for this hunt? I sure didn't.
It's just a personal choice of mine, but I feel the same way.
Pictured below is all part of my land in central Colorado.
That rock is about 600 yds away, and I have a cabin about 150 yards on the other side of it. Some mornings, I walk out onto the rock and spot elk (and/or mule deer) calmly grazing about where I took the pic, and they don’t notice me. Hoping to draw for that unit this year.
Don’t need a light rifle for that one, but might want some long-range knock-down power. For me, that’s my .340. For others, I’m sure what they have could work too. That’s just my preference. All of my neighbors are friendly except for one, who is just a bit weird. I’d rather not have to try to recover a fleeing elk on his property.
The fact that this thread has gone on for 40+ pages indicates that average calibers have made a significant inroad into the magnum debate. The elk hunting articles of the last 40-50 years spoke to the necessity of larger calibers. But midwestern and eastern deer hunters found success with 308's, 270's and 30-06's. How could that be? The need to put a reasonably well constructed bullet in the heart/lungs convinced many that elk were just large deer. Despite using premium bullets, placement was paramount and the ultimate game changer. The other factor was to enjoy the cat and mouse game and not to shoot farther then your confidence level.
I dont know the mental gymnastics one has to go through to suggest that because one thinks a magnum may be a better mouse trap that they also believe a non magnum won't work. They in fact will work, just not as well and we are talking about what's best here, not what is adequate. Former board members like Allen Day and BobinNH would tell you flat out that magnums crumpled elk better than standards and both had plenty of experience.
A magnum only stretches out the killing distance by a small amount. I've killed elk with many different cartridges including 300wsm, 30-06, 9.3x62mm, 338wm and 300wm. I don't think anything ever killed any better than the good ol 06 spitting 200gr partitions. Most of my elk have been shot at close range and have only taken one step after being hit. The ones that ran the furthest, are the ones shot with the biggest heaviest pill I've used: the 286gr nosler partition in the 9.3x62mm. I actually shot 2 elk with that rifle and both ran further than any other elk I've shot. The 30-06 loaded with 200's and the 338wm have been my favorite elk cartridges. Most cartridges will work just fine, if you put the right bullet in the boiler room. Or lets just say, most cartridges will "crumple" elk when you use the right bullet and put it in the right spot...
The fact that this thread has gone on for 40+ pages indicates that average calibers have made a significant inroad into the magnum debate. The elk hunting articles of the last 40-50 years spoke to the necessity of larger calibers. But midwestern and eastern deer hunters found success with 308's, 270's and 30-06's. How could that be? The need to put a reasonably well constructed bullet in the heart/lungs convinced many that elk were just large deer. Despite using premium bullets, placement was paramount and the ultimate game changer. The other factor was to enjoy the cat and mouse game and not to shoot farther then your confidence level.
I dont know the mental gymnastics one has to go through to suggest that because one thinks a magnum may be a better mouse trap that they also believe a non magnum won't work. They in fact will work, just not as well and we are talking about what's best here, not what is adequate. Former board members like Allen Day and BobinNH would tell you flat out that magnums crumpled elk better than standards and both had plenty of experience.
A magnum only stretches out the killing distance by a small amount. I've killed elk with many different cartridges including 300wsm, 30-06, 9.3x62mm, 338wm and 300wm. I don't think anything ever killed any better than the good ol 06 spitting 200gr partitions. Most of my elk have been shot at close range and have only taken one step after being hit. The ones that ran the furthest, are the ones shot with the biggest heaviest pill I've used: the 286gr nosler partition in the 9.3x62mm. I actually shot 2 elk with that rifle and both ran further than any other elk I've shot. The 30-06 loaded with 200's and the 338wm have been my favorite elk cartridges. Most cartridges will work just fine, if you put the right bullet in the boiler room. Or lets just say, most cartridges will "crumple" elk when you use the right bullet and put it in the right spot...
MtnHtr, not sure what you’re trying to show in the pics, but it doesn’t look much/any different than a lot of places we hunt in NM.
There are a bunch of places that if a bull travels to far you’re going to have problems, whether it’s getting into private or dying in a hell hole. The only guaranteed way to stop it is a CNS shot, regardless of cartridge. Bow hunting you deal with it all the time.
Dam glad I’ve never hunted anywhere that someone else claiming my dead bull was a problem.
MtnHtr, not sure what you’re trying to show in the pics, but it doesn’t look much/any different than a lot of places we hunt in NM.
There are a bunch of places that if a bull travels to far you’re going to have problems, whether it’s getting into private or dying in a hell hole. The only guaranteed way to stop it is a CNS shot, regardless of cartridge. Bow hunting you deal with it all the time.
Dam glad I’ve never hunted anywhere that someone else claiming my dead bull was a problem.
MtnHtr, not sure what you’re trying to show in the pics, but it doesn’t look much/any different than a lot of places we hunt in NM.
There are a bunch of places that if a bull travels to far you’re going to have problems, whether it’s getting into private or dying in a hell hole. The only guaranteed way to stop it is a CNS shot, regardless of cartridge. Bow hunting you deal with it all the time.
Dam glad I’ve never hunted anywhere that someone else claiming my dead bull was a problem.
+1 for Montana.
Both of you missed the point of my post/pics, so much for comprehension? Please re-read. I was simply backing up what Elkmen1 and BWalker posted, some places are gonna be rough and you want to put down a bull asap or risk losing it. Btw the bowhunters and muzzleloaders who hunt this unit go up higher off a main road in the quakies and meadows during the rut where it's much easier. No trails here.
These are great post hunting season topics. I don’t know of what’s best, only what has worked for myself and my hunting partners so far. I’ve recently picked up a new hunting partner, my little brother, 20 years old. First year he used his 270 Win on a cow in the BigHorns on public land, the following year he had gotten a 280 Ackley and this year he had Kevin Weaver build him a 300 Win. We looked over a bunch of cartridges he could’ve done and about everything came back to a 300 Win, mainly cause great brass is there for it.
We hunt all DIY public land mostly in Wyoming, Oregon and Idaho. I’m not terribly worried about elk getting shot by another hunter but I do hate when they wander off into the timber since their partners always trample out their sign so dying near by the kill site doesn’t stink.
Anyhow, back to my little brother. We have shot quite a lot since he started elk hunting. He’s a proficient loader now and has learned how to shoot long real well. He used the 200 AB on this bull at 675, it was sort of the classic case of public land elk. They came out about 30 minutes to quitting time. We either had to take the shot or try to come back tomorrow and find a way to get closer and hope they were there. We’d shot that far and further so our dope was solid and I knew he could kill the bull.
So that’s what we did.
We dealt with a bit of wind and his bullet landed just behind the front leg rather than on it, but it still traversed one solid lung and the rear of the other. The bull humped up and he got another round on him, where he dropped.
It’s a tough scenario and I’m quite sure any number of folks with smaller rifles could’ve done the same thing with a bunch of other smaller rounds. I don’t hate them at all. I was glad he had the cartridge/bullet combo he had that day since I hate trying to find elk in the timber. Not saying the 300 Win or whatever guarantees anything, cause it doesn’t but it didn’t hurt us that day.
I used an 06 with 212 ELD this year. I kinda joked with my buddies it was sorta like a 6.5 Creed with some ballz... all kidding aside I think they’re all capable and great but when I’m hunting with a tag I’ve waited a couple years for I mentally stack the deck in my favor. I love the 270 Win/WSM as well. Not many elk I’ve shot they wouldn’t have done great on as well. Same for the 338 Win. It’s been an elk planter for me as well.
It is interesting though, I like seeing what works for others and how they apply them to their hunts.
I used an 06 with 212 ELD this year. I kinda joked with my buddies it was sorta like a 6.5 Creed with some ballz...
Best darn quote of the year and then some! 👍
And really nice public land bull!
Thanks buddy. My brother was wondering what to do with it and he wanted a shoulder mount elk, I told him those big darned elk on tv and the videos are great animals but the average public land hunting non resident won’t kill a pile of elk bigger than that one. It’s pretty awesome for me to see him like elk hunting as much as me and my OG partner. Some folks don’t take to it.
I shot this little rag horn the following day darned near off my brothers carcass.
Two bulls within 400 yards of one another was a season topper for me.
These are great post hunting season topics. I don’t know of what’s best, only what has worked for myself and my hunting partners so far. I’ve recently picked up a new hunting partner, my little brother, 20 years old. First year he used his 270 Win on a cow in the BigHorns on public land, the following year he had gotten a 280 Ackley and this year he had Kevin Weaver build him a 300 Win. We looked over a bunch of cartridges he could’ve done and about everything came back to a 300 Win, mainly cause great brass is there for it.
We hunt all DIY public land mostly in Wyoming, Oregon and Idaho. I’m not terribly worried about elk getting shot by another hunter but I do hate when they wander off into the timber since their partners always trample out their sign so dying near by the kill site doesn’t stink.
Anyhow, back to my little brother. We have shot quite a lot since he started elk hunting. He’s a proficient loader now and has learned how to shoot long real well. He used the 200 AB on this bull at 675, it was sort of the classic case of public land elk. They came out about 30 minutes to quitting time. We either had to take the shot or try to come back tomorrow and find a way to get closer and hope they were there. We’d shot that far and further so our dope was solid and I knew he could kill the bull.
So that’s what we did.
We dealt with a bit of wind and his bullet landed just behind the front leg rather than on it, but it still traversed one solid lung and the rear of the other. The bull humped up and he got another round on him, where he dropped.
It’s a tough scenario and I’m quite sure any number of folks with smaller rifles could’ve done the same thing with a bunch of other smaller rounds. I don’t hate them at all. I was glad he had the cartridge/bullet combo he had that day since I hate trying to find elk in the timber. Not saying the 300 Win or whatever guarantees anything, cause it doesn’t but it didn’t hurt us that day.
I used an 06 with 212 ELD this year. I kinda joked with my buddies it was sorta like a 6.5 Creed with some ballz... all kidding aside I think they’re all capable and great but when I’m hunting with a tag I’ve waited a couple years for I mentally stack the deck in my favor. I love the 270 Win/WSM as well. Not many elk I’ve shot they wouldn’t have done great on as well. Same for the 338 Win. It’s been an elk planter for me as well.
It is interesting though, I like seeing what works for others and how they apply them to their hunts.
Did you and you brother have the bullet drop calculated out to 675 yards? I've never calculated mine past 600 yds, and if I was in the situation you described, I would be kicking myself.
These are great post hunting season topics. I don’t know of what’s best, only what has worked for myself and my hunting partners so far. I’ve recently picked up a new hunting partner, my little brother, 20 years old. First year he used his 270 Win on a cow in the BigHorns on public land, the following year he had gotten a 280 Ackley and this year he had Kevin Weaver build him a 300 Win. We looked over a bunch of cartridges he could’ve done and about everything came back to a 300 Win, mainly cause great brass is there for it.
We hunt all DIY public land mostly in Wyoming, Oregon and Idaho. I’m not terribly worried about elk getting shot by another hunter but I do hate when they wander off into the timber since their partners always trample out their sign so dying near by the kill site doesn’t stink.
Anyhow, back to my little brother. We have shot quite a lot since he started elk hunting. He’s a proficient loader now and has learned how to shoot long real well. He used the 200 AB on this bull at 675, it was sort of the classic case of public land elk. They came out about 30 minutes to quitting time. We either had to take the shot or try to come back tomorrow and find a way to get closer and hope they were there. We’d shot that far and further so our dope was solid and I knew he could kill the bull.
So that’s what we did.
We dealt with a bit of wind and his bullet landed just behind the front leg rather than on it, but it still traversed one solid lung and the rear of the other. The bull humped up and he got another round on him, where he dropped.
It’s a tough scenario and I’m quite sure any number of folks with smaller rifles could’ve done the same thing with a bunch of other smaller rounds. I don’t hate them at all. I was glad he had the cartridge/bullet combo he had that day since I hate trying to find elk in the timber. Not saying the 300 Win or whatever guarantees anything, cause it doesn’t but it didn’t hurt us that day.
I used an 06 with 212 ELD this year. I kinda joked with my buddies it was sorta like a 6.5 Creed with some ballz... all kidding aside I think they’re all capable and great but when I’m hunting with a tag I’ve waited a couple years for I mentally stack the deck in my favor. I love the 270 Win/WSM as well. Not many elk I’ve shot they wouldn’t have done great on as well. Same for the 338 Win. It’s been an elk planter for me as well.
It is interesting though, I like seeing what works for others and how they apply them to their hunts.
Happy New Year fellas!
675 across that canyon at that time of day is a hell of a pair of shots. Apparently, you guys can shoot. Great story and pics!
675 across that canyon at that time of day is a hell of a pair of shots. Apparently, you guys can shoot. Great story and pics!
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. He shot his bull on one day, the next day we decided to sit in the clearing where his bull died before grabbing a couple quarters and coming out. Well, as luck would have it, that lone bull was at the top of the meadow. I ended up shooting over my pack at 390 yards to kill that bull, I was about 10ft from his cleaned carcass at the shot.
Did you and you brother have the bullet drop calculated out to 675 yards? I've never calculated mine past 600 yds, and if I was in the situation you described, I would be kicking myself.
Sorry MH, just saw this. We both shot out to 800 pretty regularly. We used good scopes that we dialed with all summer (NF and SS 3-9) so basically after that it is just dealing with the wind. I hate shooting long myself but I also hate not eating elk.
I’d much rather burn them at musket range but I take what I’m given and be prepared for it as much as possible.
Did you and you brother have the bullet drop calculated out to 675 yards? I've never calculated mine past 600 yds, and if I was in the situation you described, I would be kicking myself.
Sorry MH, just saw this. We both shot out to 800 pretty regularly. We used good scopes that we dialed with all summer (NF and SS 3-9) so basically after that it is just dealing with the wind. I hate shooting long myself but I also hate not eating elk.
I’d much rather burn them at musket range but I take what I’m given and be prepared for it as much as possible.
+ 1
Preparation + opportunity = success.
Well done and congrats!
Have several friends who can do the same under the right conditions. They know their rigs well and practice.
What about using Quantico as well? They have a shooting club as well. I’ve not joined but they do open up the 1000 ranges enough to make the fee worth it I’d think.
That is a healthy chunk of additional energy for the 300WM.
A side-by-side comparison shows that anything the 30-06 can do in terms of velocity and energy with this load, a 300WM can do 165 yards further down range. Drift is essentially the same at 600 and 660 yards. If MPBR zeroed, drop is the same at 600 and 650 yards.
Effective range is only one measure of a cartridge’s capability. I would argue that effective area is even more illuminating for comparison reasons as game can appear from any direction. Range is a linear measure while area is geometric.
Increasing the 2000fps range from 460 to 635 yards results in a 36% increase in linear range but an 85% increase in the area that can be covered. I often hunt elk in open sage country where game can and has come from virtually every angle. Even at my personal limit of 600 yards, my 300WM increases the area I can cover by 70%. That is not a “small amount” to me.
Effective range is only one measure of a cartridge’s capability. I would argue that effective area is even more illuminating for comparison reasons as game can appear from any direction. Range is a linear measure while area is geometric.
Increasing the 2000fps range from 460 to 635 yards results in a 36% increase in linear range but an 85% increase in the area that can be covered. I often hunt elk in open sage country where game can and has come from virtually every angle. Even at my personal limit of 600 yards, my 300WM increases the area I can cover by 70%. That is not a “small amount” to me.
Your point of a 300WM having165yds more of range than a 30-06 based on velocity is valid. However, effective area would only come into play if you are shooting a Gatlin gun while spinning on a merry-go-round. I don't typically bring a merry-go-round along with me in the back country.
Your point of a 300WM having165yds more of range than a 30-06 based on velocity is valid. However, effective area would only come into play if you are shooting a Gatlin gun while spinning on a merry-go-round. I don't typically bring a merry-go-round along with me in the back country.
I think his point is that there is 85% more area where a single elk might appear that you would have a good shot. One shot.
I think his point is that there is 85% more area where a single elk might appear that you would have a good shot. One shot.
Of course he is and his point is very valid, the area you have available for a shot is substantially larger. It's easy to understand, draw a circle around a coffee cup. Overlay that with a saucer, the area between the two circles is your added range. Makes perfect sense.
Yes, the elk standing in the magic 165 yard window just outside the lethal reach of the 30-06. The same window that is well beyond the marksmanship ability of 99% of the people on the fire.
I only gave you credit for Attention Deficit Disorder, But, if you insist you may suffer from Hyperactivity as well! ! But, most certainly Attention Deficit! memtb
Is there really an elk that you guys would shoot with a 300WM that you'd not shoot at with a 30-06?
400 yds bad angle?
I've done it farther than that with an '06. And a 270. More than a few times. I'm pretty sure they were all dead. Particularly after I enjoyed the backstraps. But I like G1 ballistic coefficients well above .5. Back to this old "shoot 'em with a magnum and ping pong balls" discussion again.
You started it, and the answer is yes, a lot farther
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
[quote=irfubar][quote=HuntnShoot]Is there really an elk that you guys would shoot with a 300WM that you'd not shoot at with a 30-06?
I have done it a lot farther than that. In the early 1980's after killing numerous elk and deer with an 06, i moved up to the 300 WM. Several shots at 500 yds plus confirmed that decision. And yes I enjoyed the back straps also.
You started it, and the answer is yes, a lot farther
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
[quote=irfubar][quote=HuntnShoot]Is there really an elk that you guys would shoot with a 300WM that you'd not shoot at with a 30-06?
I have done it a lot farther than that. In the early 1980's after killing numerous elk and deer with an 06, i moved up to the 300 WM. Several shots at 500 yds plus confirmed that decision. And yes I enjoyed the back straps also.
Cool. I appreciate it when guys make it nice and obvious that they are basically FOS. Keeps things simpler in the future.
Arrows have been working well for me lately.....;)
Seriously, I've probably seen 200+ elk taken with just about every centerfire rifle under the sun, and my thoughts are, good shot placement is 99% of the end result. Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon.
If you're hunting elk in grizzly country you can't go wrong with the .375 H&H. I carry one for elk handloaded with 250 grain Hornady's. Great accuracy, decent range, minimal recoil with this bullet weight and a bracketed powder charge, limited meat spoilage most of the time and you're ready for any eventuality.
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Effective range is only one measure of a cartridge’s capability. I would argue that effective area is even more illuminating for comparison reasons as game can appear from any direction. Range is a linear measure while area is geometric.
Increasing the 2000fps range from 460 to 635 yards results in a 36% increase in linear range but an 85% increase in the area that can be covered. I often hunt elk in open sage country where game can and has come from virtually every angle. Even at my personal limit of 600 yards, my 300WM increases the area I can cover by 70%. That is not a “small amount” to me.
Your point of a 300WM having165yds more of range than a 30-06 based on velocity is valid. However, effective area would only come into play if you are shooting a Gatlin gun while spinning on a merry-go-round. I don't typically bring a merry-go-round along with me in the back country.
Effective Area works whether considering a full circle or just a segment thereof. The increase percentage is the same.
I don't hunt on a merry-go-round, but I have had game come in from virtually every angle when hunting open country. That includes antelope, mule deer and elk.
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Easily stated by me regardless of where I live.....re read my post, I've been in on 200+ elk kills, and many, many of them were non residents I was guiding.
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Easily stated by me regardless of where I live.....re read my post, I've been in on 200+ elk kills, and many, many of them were non residents I was guiding.
I will agree that many cannot handle the recoil some of the good elk cartridges..including something as light as a 30-06. There are many people that have no business hunting elk....period, for a myriad of reasons!
And it’s “ no hair off of your arse” if the client fails to kill his/her elk........it’s the non - resident client that spent thousands of $ and may potentially never have enough points to elk hunt again. As stated before......those folks should have the most cartridge that they are proficient with! It’s the hunter’s decision what that threshold is......not some outfitter/guide that doesn’t personally know the client!
I will agree that many cannot handle the recoil some of the good elk cartridges..including something as light as a 30-06. There are many people that have no business hunting elk....period, for a myriad of reasons!
And it’s “ no hair off of your arse” if the client fails to kill his/her elk........it’s the non - resident client that spent thousands of $ and may potentially never have enough points to elk hunt again. As stated before......those folks should have the most cartridge that they are proficient with! It’s the hunter’s decision what that threshold is......not some outfitter/guide that doesn’t personally know the client!
We shall continue to disagree! memtb
I agree with your approach memtb. Before my first AK bear hunt, I bought and shot about 200 rounds (about $1K) through my .375 Wby and got really good with it. I'm glad my guide didn't try to talk me out of it or using his .338 instead once I got there. Instead, on the first night at the first camp, he asked me to pick up my rifle. I did. Then, he asked me promptly to shoot the base of a distinctive reed about 100 yds away in the river. I shouldered it and did just that (or close enough that it disappeared into the exploding water). He said something to the effect of: "Okay, you're not BS-ing." The next morning I put a 300gr NP into the place I was aiming on a 9'2" boar 97 yds away, went through and blew up both lungs, and he died in about a second. .
MarineHawk, 👍! The only time that a hunter is “over gunned”.... is when he/she is not proficient or comfortable with their chosen hunting rifle! In spite of the apparent consensus......a larger, more powerful cartridge/bullet when properly placed will kill as good as the lower horsepower models.
Though, you can’t “puff-out” your chest and claim your superior skills by taking an animal with the latest, fashion statement, micro whiz-bang cartridge! 😉 memtb
MarineHawk, 👍! The only time that a hunter is “over gunned”.... is when he/she is not proficient or comfortable with their chosen hunting rifle! In spite of the apparent consensus......a larger, more powerful cartridge/bullet when properly placed will kill as good as the lower horsepower models.
Though, you can’t “puff-out” your chest and claim your superior skills by taking an animal with the latest, fashion statement, micro whiz-bang cartridge! 😉 memtb
LOL. To the contrary, you can "puff out" your chest because you are manly enough to shoot a big, booming magnum.
What’s your issue? I don’t ever criticize anyone who does something that works. You do, because it’s something different than what you prefer. I can effectively use a certain round that I prefer, so I use it. You don’t like it because you prefer something else. And you falsely assume non one effectively can shoot anything bigger than a 7mm-08. It’s not true.
What’s your issue? I don’t ever criticize anyone who does something that works. You do, because it’s something different than what you prefer. I can effectively use a certain round that I prefer, so I use it. You don’t like it because you prefer something else. And you falsely assume non one effectively can shoot anything bigger than a 7mm-08. It’s not true.
That wasn’t directed at you at all, MH. It was just me funning with memtb to show the other side of the coin. The magnum guys criticize the guys that shoot smaller rounds, calling them stunt shooters, micro whiz-bang, etc, and the guys that prefer smaller rounds often criticize the magnum shooters by saying they’re compensating for something and need to feel like macho men, etc. Just a quirky dichotomy, is all. FYI, I own and enjoy both large and small rifles. I just know that big rifles aren’t necessary to put critters in the dirt ASAP, that’s all. Doesn’t mean they’re not fun to shoot.
Oh man that is a nice picture with that bear! I hope it was a nice clean kill.
Thanks E. When hit about 20 feet from that spot (you could see the huge hind paw/claw marks), he launched forward and spun to his right to bite what he thought was biting him; fell down; and never moved after about a second. When skinning him, I dug as far as I could reasonably, and that 300gr NP had turned a huge cavity into jelly all through his body.
Later, at the house, the boys continued to keep him at bay:
What’s your issue? I don’t ever criticize anyone who does something that works. You do, because it’s something different than what you prefer. I can effectively use a certain round that I prefer, so I use it. You don’t like it because you prefer something else. And you falsely assume non one effectively can shoot anything bigger than a 7mm-08. It’s not true.
That wasn’t directed at you at all, MH. It was just me funning with memtb to show the other side of the coin. The magnum guys criticize the guys that shoot smaller rounds, calling them stunt shooters, micro whiz-bang, etc, and the guys that prefer smaller rounds often criticize the magnum shooters by saying they’re compensating for something and need to feel like macho men, etc. Just a quirky dichotomy, is all. FYI, I own and enjoy both large and small rifles. I just know that big rifles aren’t necessary to put critters in the dirt ASAP, that’s all. Doesn’t mean they’re not fun to shoot.
Thanks for the comment JD. It's just that I have never complained or criticized what anyone else uses--ever. Yet, I've been told countless times that what I'm doing is just going to make me flinch in the field, which just isn't true. It's just my own anecdotal perspective. I wouldn't hesitate to use a .243 on something the size of an elk if that's what I had, but I might be a little more picky about the shot that I took. I generally assume that everyone else knows what they're doing and has enough competence with what they have. It's not always true, but I don't think it's as commonly the result of them going in over-gunned as many here often suggest. As noted in the thread below, I'm working with my new 6.5-300 to get it ready for Colorado next October. So, I'm not always thinking about bigger bullets.
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Easily stated by me regardless of where I live.....re read my post, I've been in on 200+ elk kills, and many, many of them were non residents I was guiding.
I will agree that many cannot handle the recoil some of the good elk cartridges..including something as light as a 30-06. There are many people that have no business hunting elk....period, for a myriad of reasons!
And it’s “ no hair off of your arse” if the client fails to kill his/her elk........it’s the non - resident client that spent thousands of $ and may potentially never have enough points to elk hunt again. As stated before......those folks should have the most cartridge that they are proficient with! It’s the hunter’s decision what that threshold is......not some outfitter/guide that doesn’t personally know the client!
We shall continue to disagree! memtb
This exchange again remakes my point; "everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equal."
Pat (scenarshooter) is likely one of the more experienced NA Big Game hunters in this country, and if not, certainly here in Montana. All DIY. Apart from being a good guy, he's got more trigger/killing time than literally anyone on this forum.
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Easily stated by me regardless of where I live.....re read my post, I've been in on 200+ elk kills, and many, many of them were non residents I was guiding.
I will agree that many cannot handle the recoil some of the good elk cartridges..including something as light as a 30-06. There are many people that have no business hunting elk....period, for a myriad of reasons!
And it’s “ no hair off of your arse” if the client fails to kill his/her elk........it’s the non - resident client that spent thousands of $ and may potentially never have enough points to elk hunt again. As stated before......those folks should have the most cartridge that they are proficient with! It’s the hunter’s decision what that threshold is......not some outfitter/guide that doesn’t personally know the client!
We shall continue to disagree! memtb
This exchange again remakes my point; "everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equal."
Pat (scenarshooter) is likely one of the more experienced NA Big Game hunters in this country, and if not, certainly here in Montana. All DIY. Apart from being a good guy, he's got more trigger/killing time than literally anyone on this forum.
Indeed, not all opinions are equal...
"Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon." Kinda hard to argue that point.
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Easily stated by me regardless of where I live.....re read my post, I've been in on 200+ elk kills, and many, many of them were non residents I was guiding.
I will agree that many cannot handle the recoil some of the good elk cartridges..including something as light as a 30-06. There are many people that have no business hunting elk....period, for a myriad of reasons!
And it’s “ no hair off of your arse” if the client fails to kill his/her elk........it’s the non - resident client that spent thousands of $ and may potentially never have enough points to elk hunt again. As stated before......those folks should have the most cartridge that they are proficient with! It’s the hunter’s decision what that threshold is......not some outfitter/guide that doesn’t personally know the client!
We shall continue to disagree! memtb
This exchange again remakes my point; "everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equal."
Pat (scenarshooter) is likely one of the more experienced NA Big Game hunters in this country, and if not, certainly here in Montana. All DIY. Apart from being a good guy, he's got more trigger/killing time than literally anyone on this forum.
Indeed, not all opinions are equal...
"Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon." Kinda hard to argue that point.
Marginal with one cartridge/bullet combo, maybe very easily done with another! memtb
Experience is very important.. How ever some may be so experienced they do not realize the situations less experienced hunters face.. Another factor is the amount of time a hunter can spend in the field.. Also how plentiful game is.. Lots of time and long seasons, make shot selections much different than a 5 day season..
Easily stated by someone that lives in elk country. For those that have to pay large sums of money to hunt an elk, and may have limited time to make an elk hunt, perhaps only once in a lifetime ......should not be restricted to “Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon”! And, I’m not referring to a shot of low percentage chance of hitting the necessary bullet impact location. I’m referring to using a cartridge that will drive a bullet through the vitals .....now matter the entry angle!
A proper cartridge (somewhat larger caliber), using a bullet proven to be accurate, retain a high percentage of it’s weight should be a a primary consideration for those folks, as described above! memtb
Easily stated by me regardless of where I live.....re read my post, I've been in on 200+ elk kills, and many, many of them were non residents I was guiding.
I will agree that many cannot handle the recoil some of the good elk cartridges..including something as light as a 30-06. There are many people that have no business hunting elk....period, for a myriad of reasons!
And it’s “ no hair off of your arse” if the client fails to kill his/her elk........it’s the non - resident client that spent thousands of $ and may potentially never have enough points to elk hunt again. As stated before......those folks should have the most cartridge that they are proficient with! It’s the hunter’s decision what that threshold is......not some outfitter/guide that doesn’t personally know the client!
We shall continue to disagree! memtb
This exchange again remakes my point; "everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equal."
Pat (scenarshooter) is likely one of the more experienced NA Big Game hunters in this country, and if not, certainly here in Montana. All DIY. Apart from being a good guy, he's got more trigger/killing time than literally anyone on this forum.
Indeed, not all opinions are equal...
"Pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon." Kinda hard to argue that point.
Marginal with one cartridge/bullet combo, maybe very easily done with another! memtb
True, but entirely misses the point and does nothing to negate "pass on marginal shots regardless of the weapon." If you choose to hunt with an open-sighted .35 Remington, you're choosing to take a pass on shots that would be easy for someone competent with a .300 Win Mag and a good scope.
But you should still pass on a marginal shot with the Win Mag.
Oh I don’t think Jordan cares, much the same as you MH. It’s mostly just the “it needs to be THIS big” or you’re leaving something on the table.
I think this is mostly what I have a problem with, especially when the position/opinion is based on a fair bit of experience with big rifles, but very little experience with smaller rifles. If a guy says, "I've killed a host of game animals with small rifles and just as many with magnums, and magnums make a noticeable difference", I can respect that even if it doesn't quite align with my own personal experience. But I find a lot of staunch magnum proponents have never given smaller rifles much of a chance, so they worry/assume that anything smaller than their magnums won't work as well, but don't have the experience to know for sure.
Experience is very important.. How ever some may be so experienced they do not realize the situations less experienced hunters face.. Another factor is the amount of time a hunter can spend in the field.. Also how plentiful game is.. Lots of time and long seasons, make shot selections much different than a 5 day season..
It seems like you are advocating that less experienced hunters should shoot the biggest cartridge they can find and take marginal shots. That can't possibly be what you saying.
I think a magnum with a premium bullet gives you a larger margin of error..... nothing more nothing less
The catch is for many, the recoil of the magnum causes errors....
Now if you can shoot a 300 mag with the same precision you shoot your 223, it only makes sense to take the 300 elk hunting and leave the 223 home.... simple
Or put another way take the largest gun you can shoot well.... oh and don't lie to yourself... that's what libtards do,,, don't be a libtard
I once drove a 130gr Etip through the hip and on into the chest of a wounded bull that was departing for parts unknown, rifle was my 270wby. Shot was about 175-200 yards so velocity was probably in the neighborhood of what a 270 Win would be doing at say 100-125 yards, just a guess but you get the idea.
Now that little piddly 130 broke one of the heaviest bones in a mature bull elk’s body as well as driving through the heavy hindquarter muscle structure. Continuing on through the paunch, liver, and a lung, probably around 3’ of penetration. Bull immediately went down in the back end and then flopped over and died.
The first shot was a good one, didn’t know it at the time just trying to get him to stop before he got out of sight. But I just can’t see how that kind of performance can be improved on in any meaningful way. The better bullets get the smaller the difference is between cartridges IMO.
I once drove a 130gr Etip through the hip and on into the chest of a wounded bull that was departing for parts unknown, rifle was my 270wby. Shot was about 175-200 yards so velocity was probably in the neighborhood of what a 270 Win would be doing at say 100-125 yards, just a guess but you get the idea.
Now that little piddly 130 broke one of the heaviest bones in a mature bull elk’s body as well as driving through the heavy hindquarter muscle structure. Continuing on through the paunch, liver, and a lung, probably around 3’ of penetration. Bull immediately went down in the back end and then flopped over and died.
The first shot was a good one, didn’t know it at the time just trying to get him to stop before he got out of sight. But I just can’t see how that kind of performance can be improved on in any meaningful way. The better bullets get the smaller the difference is between cartridges IMO.
That’s a darned good point. Today’s super bullets take some using in a little smaller cartridge to see how well they can work.
I think I know what you’re saying, but define “margin of error”?
This statement is where it goes off the rails with some people.
Originally Posted by irfubar
I think a magnum with a premium bullet gives you a larger margin of error..... nothing more nothing less
I can give you two real life examples.... the last bull I shot was running, maybe 100yds away, my 300mag with a 180 Nosler stopped him, I would not have taken the shot with say a 243. Another large bull at long range my buddy I both shot at and hit, he had a 270 with a cup & core, I had a 338 with a 225 X bullet. We killed it and during field dressing found his 270 slug mushroomed against the spine, didn't break it, my 338 slug put him down.
Ok, so for you, it means comfort in some shots over a smaller cartridge.👍🏻
.308 Win is still the holy grail of elk cartridges.😀
Originally Posted by irfubar
Originally Posted by SLM
I think I know what you’re saying, but define “margin of error”?
This statement is where it goes off the rails with some people.
Originally Posted by irfubar
I think a magnum with a premium bullet gives you a larger margin of error..... nothing more nothing less
I can give you two real life examples.... the last bull I shot was running, maybe 100yds away, my 300mag with a 180 Nosler stopped him, I would not have taken the shot with say a 243. Another large bull at long range my buddy I both shot at and hit, he had a 270 with a cup & core, I had a 338 with a 225 X bullet. We killed it and during field dressing found his 270 slug mushroomed against the spine, didn't break it, my 338 slug put him down.
Ok, so for you, it means comfort in some shots over a smaller cartridge.👍🏻
.308 Win is still the holy grail of elk cartridges.😀
Originally Posted by irfubar
Originally Posted by SLM
I think I know what you’re saying, but define “margin of error”?
This statement is where it goes off the rails with some people.
Originally Posted by irfubar
I think a magnum with a premium bullet gives you a larger margin of error..... nothing more nothing less
I can give you two real life examples.... the last bull I shot was running, maybe 100yds away, my 300mag with a 180 Nosler stopped him, I would not have taken the shot with say a 243. Another large bull at long range my buddy I both shot at and hit, he had a 270 with a cup & core, I had a 338 with a 225 X bullet. We killed it and during field dressing found his 270 slug mushroomed against the spine, didn't break it, my 338 slug put him down.
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The first gun I ever bought, when I turned 12 was a Smith Model 29-2 with 8 3/8 tube on it. I changed sprinkler pipes for two summers to save up enough money. I got some funny looks from people on the river when I packed it on my dailey fishing excursions. I had one game warden ask me, "Does your father know you have his gun?" LOL ![[Linked Image]](http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l511/gusthedudog/SDC10643.jpg)
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... And the best part is we appear to be in agreement that I AM RIGHT!!! HAIL THE 7MM, KING OF THE ELK CARTRIDGES!! 
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