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I would cation use of the heavy .338 bullets on elk. The 210 ttsx goes all the way through and I would hate to risk over penetrating on an animal like an elk. I wouldnt risk it Just Sayin!!

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I have used both the 225 and the 250 grain bullet in my .338 Win mag model 70 on bull elk! I have never had any problems busting both shoulders of a bull with either of these bullet weights in premium bullets. Now 50% of the time the bullet is found under the skin on the far side, unless your shooting under 100 yards, then you will get an exit which is no big deal.

Last edited by Tonk; 02/04/11.

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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
One thing that I forgot to say, to me....it's more about the rifle and my level of intimacy with it than it is with the round.

I want to be using a rig that I am very comfy with and can kill on demand to 700 with it.

Dober



The .300 Winchester

by Jack Steele

SAY YOU WANTED to hunt with just one big-game rifle. Have it become an extension of your own body. Know it like the smell of your Dad's wool coat. Say you wanted it in a caliber flat enough to poke coyotes at long distance but powerful enough to make a bull elk take notice at the far end of a cross-canyon shot. Say you wanted it all in one package so you could always count on that one rifle to get the job done. Sound like a pipe dream?

The do-it-all rifle is not a myth, as many a seasoned rifleman knows. In fact, while the gunrags do a healthy business recommending good calibers for this, and best bullet for that, it's a fact that when flying lead doesn't have the intended results, it's the man behind the rifle that's almost certainly to blame. Show me a man who blames a miss on his rifle, and I'll show you a rifleman in need of polish, which leads to the primary reason behind choosing one good rifle -- polished skills.

Of course, the best way to polish skills is by shooting your chosen Betsy often and from real-life shooting positions. A rifle that feels right and doesn't kick like a mule goes a long way toward promoting regular practice. So does reloading for it, which will promote accuracy and increased familiarity.

It goes without saying that a one-rifle battery should be as accurate as possible. In practical terms, however, a 2-MOA rifle is plenty good enough for most big-game hunting. Latch onto a rifle that consistently shoots 1 MOA, and you'll regret the day you part with it. Any big-game rifle more precise than that should be considered an heirloom.

What really gets interesting, however, is deciding on a caliber. Ask five seasoned riflemen for their top choice, and you can expect five different opinions, all vehement, all well reasoned.

The .30-06 is the perennial all-mention, and rightly so; there's no rust on the classic. The .270 Winchester, aside from being a hell of a caliber, was Jack O'Connor's darling (though he admitted the ought-six probably was better) and therefore commands a prodigious following. The .338 Winchester Magnum was a favorite of Elmer Keith and is a superb choice for the steel-shouldered. The 7mm Remington Magnum does a whole lot with class.

Lots of others, most notably the .308 Winchester and the .280 Remington as well as various Weatherby Magnums and a slew of wildcats, can and do fit the bill. But the .300 Winchester Magnum -- the .300 Win. Mag. just might be the best of all! Except for the big brownies, which rate their own .375 H&H Magnum to many minds, the North-American hunter with a good .300 Winny has all the rifle he will ever need. And then some.

So, why not the .30-06? Why not, indeed. The good ol' ought-six is still a top choice. From 'chucks to elk, it is a serious caliber for the serious hunter, no question about it.

There is one area, however, where the ought-six gives up some ground, and that's when it comes to pushing heavy bullets -- the kind you want when big, tough critters like elk and moose are on the program. Yes, the classic .30-06 load pushing a 180-grain pill at 2700-2800 ft/sec will do almost anything you need, but throw in a big bull elk across a wide canyon at dusk, and the Winny gets the nod. Consider that at 400 yards, the Winny's 3100 ft/sec with the same 180-grainer gets you 450 ft/lbs more terminal energy and five inches less drop.

If that weren't telling enough, jump up to the 200-grain rock ,and by today's mega-magnum standards the 2550 ft/sec generated by a .30-06 case can be considered positively lethargic, although for close work in heavy timber, the combination is hard to beat.

By contrast, the Winny pushes the 200-grainer to a speedy 2950 ft/sec with careful reloads. At 400 yards, this translates into almost 700 ft/lbs more terminal energy and a trajectory flattened by 7 inches. That is the kind of difference that makes a difference on tough game.

Bottom line: While the .30-06 still may be the finest all-around caliber, it says here that if elk are in your plans (and elk are increasingly in everyone's plans) the .300 Winchester might be a better choice.

The same analysis applies to the .270 Winchester. By all accounts a hell of a sheep and deer caliber, throw elk into the equation and the .270 becomes marginal. Sure, there are elk hunters who shoot their bull with a .270 every year, but they are the exception. Most of the savvy elk crowd considers the .270 either too small or the absolute bare minimum for wapiti.

Suffice it to say that, at 400 yards, the .270 shooting 130 spitzers and the .300 Win. Mag. shooting 200-grain spitzers have virtually identical trajectories. The difference is that the .270 arrives carrying roughly 1300 ft/lbs of energy (below the 1500 ft/lbs often cited as a minimum for elk) while the Winny will deliver over a ton of energy, almost 2300 ft/lbs What the great .270 is to deer and sheep, the .300 Winny is to elk. Bad medicine.

As to the 7mm Remington Magnum, this fine caliber is often considered to be the ought-six's ballistic clone. The 7-Rem's small advantages in sectional density are offset by the .30-06's increased frontal area. The ought-six has an advantage in that more and heavier bullets are readily available, especially for the handloader, but basically, in the field you could choose one or the other and never notice the difference. So as versatile, accurate, and popular as this .284 is, the .30-06 retains an edge, and the .300 WinMag outclasses them both.

The .338 Winchester Magnum is another thing altogether. By all accounts a large caliber by North-American standards, it has been said that true recoil starts at the .338. A seasoned rifleman who practices regularly certainly should have no trouble handling the .338, but for many casual shooters, the .338 is simply too much rifle to shoot regularly or accurately.

It is noteworthy, however, that in terms of the wide spectrum of game animals available in North America, the .338 is probably the most well centered. A fair choice for the big brown bears (though a .375 H&H is superior for this work by an order of magnitude), the .338 is rightly considered by many as the preeminent elk caliber, while still being plenty flat enough for whitetails, antelope, and even coyotes. Take the big bears out of the equation, however, which they are for the vast majority of hunters, and the .338 becomes a too large shoulder pounder for most weekend warriors, though still optimal for dedicated wapiti chasers. Let face it. You don't need a .338 for any whitetail walking the earth.

By contrast, the beauty of the .300 WinMag is that it is so well suited to the typical range of hunting experiences to be had in North America.

After plains game? 180-grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 ft/sec equal bad mule-deer medicine and devastating performance on pronghorns. The same load is a ringer in "beanfield" situations. Elk and moose in your plans? Load 200-grain Partitions or A-Frames at 2900 ft/sec, and be assured that you have the right gun! Feel like practicing on coyotes or chucks? Scream some 165-grain boattails at 3250 ft/sec, and worry about your end of the rifle.

Like with all calibers, there are situations where a different caliber would be ideal, but for all-around versatility, flat trajectory, and high energy, the .300 Winchester Magnum shines, maybe like no other.

In the end, the choice of an all-around rifle depends on many factors. If you like a gun, you are much more likely to shoot it and shoot it well, so choose a rifle you like. Also, any experienced rifleman knows that where you hit 'em is much more important than what you hit 'em with, so place your emphasis on skills rather than on the size of the rock. But when all that is said and done, take a good hard look at the .300 Winchester.

You may not look any further.


"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Hey Guys: I have been enjoying this thread probably more than any other. It began 12-8-10 and has 49 pages w/482 posts. I have only entered your parlour 3 times because I haven't been PRIVILEGED to hunt elk YET. I am a seasoned deer hunter and an OLD handloader with a lot of experience with different guns & calibers.

Obviously MANY calibers have killed elk successfully. The smaller calibers are best used by the experienced hunters who know WHEN & WHERE to shoot and NOT to shoot. That applies to deer hunting calibers too.

I have enjoyed Jack Steel's treatise on the 300 WM both times it has been posted. I currently own my 5th 300 WM and it is my favorite 300 BECAUSE it's LIGHT and wonderfully accurate.

After following this thread and all the recommendations here it is MY OPINION that one is hard pressed to prove ANY caliber larger than 300 is needed. That's not to say I don't think they should be used, just that they are not needed. I'm one of the LUCKY few to own a Rem 700 8mmRM and am now convinced it's larger than NEEDED for elk. (it's NOT for sale anyway, it's the top end of my Rem. mm collection)

When 6.5s, 270s, 280s,EVEN 308s are considered plenty, why subject yourself to the weight and recoil of anything larger than a 300 mag. (Win,Wby,& Rum) NOTED our new, improved bullet selection has upgraded the smaller calibers.

Now y'all carry on, we need more threads like this one!! THANKS for letting me butt in.

JWALL
______________

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VEGETARIAN......Indian Word For Poor Hunter

Last edited by JWALL; 02/04/11.

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.294 Kaibab nuff said.........

Thank me later...


and yes, I'm the man.............
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Boy, Jack Steele would get roasted good on the Campfire, if he said some of that stuff here....

Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
.


The .300 Winchester

by Jack Steele

SAY YOU WANTED to hunt with just one big-game rifle. Have it become an extension of your own body. Know it like the smell of your Dad's wool coat. Say you wanted it in a caliber flat enough to poke coyotes at long distance but powerful enough to make a bull elk take notice at the far end of a cross-canyon shot. Say you wanted it all in one package so you could always count on that one rifle to get the job done. Sound like a pipe dream?

The do-it-all rifle is not a myth, as many a seasoned rifleman knows. In fact, while the gunrags do a healthy business recommending good calibers for this, and best bullet for that, it's a fact that when flying lead doesn't have the intended results, it's the man behind the rifle that's almost certainly to blame. Show me a man who blames a miss on his rifle, and I'll show you a rifleman in need of polish, which leads to the primary reason behind choosing one good rifle -- polished skills.

Of course, the best way to polish skills is by shooting your chosen Betsy often and from real-life shooting positions. A rifle that feels right and doesn't kick like a mule goes a long way toward promoting regular practice. So does reloading for it, which will promote accuracy and increased familiarity.

It goes without saying that a one-rifle battery should be as accurate as possible. In practical terms, however, a 2-MOA rifle is plenty good enough for most big-game hunting. Latch onto a rifle that consistently shoots 1 MOA, and you'll regret the day you part with it. Any big-game rifle more precise than that should be considered an heirloom.

What really gets interesting, however, is deciding on a caliber. Ask five seasoned riflemen for their top choice, and you can expect five different opinions, all vehement, all well reasoned.

The .30-06 is the perennial all-mention, and rightly so; there's no rust on the classic. The .270 Winchester, aside from being a hell of a caliber, was Jack O'Connor's darling (though he admitted the ought-six probably was better) and therefore commands a prodigious following. The .338 Winchester Magnum was a favorite of Elmer Keith and is a superb choice for the steel-shouldered. The 7mm Remington Magnum does a whole lot with class.

Lots of others, most notably the .308 Winchester and the .280 Remington as well as various Weatherby Magnums and a slew of wildcats, can and do fit the bill. But the .300 Winchester Magnum -- the .300 Win. Mag. just might be the best of all! Except for the big brownies, which rate their own .375 H&H Magnum to many minds, the North-American hunter with a good .300 Winny has all the rifle he will ever need. And then some.

So, why not the .30-06? Why not, indeed. The good ol' ought-six is still a top choice. From 'chucks to elk, it is a serious caliber for the serious hunter, no question about it.

There is one area, however, where the ought-six gives up some ground, and that's when it comes to pushing heavy bullets -- the kind you want when big, tough critters like elk and moose are on the program. Yes, the classic .30-06 load pushing a 180-grain pill at 2700-2800 ft/sec will do almost anything you need, but throw in a big bull elk across a wide canyon at dusk, and the Winny gets the nod. Consider that at 400 yards, the Winny's 3100 ft/sec with the same 180-grainer gets you 450 ft/lbs more terminal energy and five inches less drop.

If that weren't telling enough, jump up to the 200-grain rock ,and by today's mega-magnum standards the 2550 ft/sec generated by a .30-06 case can be considered positively lethargic, although for close work in heavy timber, the combination is hard to beat.

By contrast, the Winny pushes the 200-grainer to a speedy 2950 ft/sec with careful reloads. At 400 yards, this translates into almost 700 ft/lbs more terminal energy and a trajectory flattened by 7 inches. That is the kind of difference that makes a difference on tough game.

Bottom line: While the .30-06 still may be the finest all-around caliber, it says here that if elk are in your plans (and elk are increasingly in everyone's plans) the .300 Winchester might be a better choice.

The same analysis applies to the .270 Winchester. By all accounts a hell of a sheep and deer caliber, throw elk into the equation and the .270 becomes marginal. Sure, there are elk hunters who shoot their bull with a .270 every year, but they are the exception. Most of the savvy elk crowd considers the .270 either too small or the absolute bare minimum for wapiti.

Suffice it to say that, at 400 yards, the .270 shooting 130 spitzers and the .300 Win. Mag. shooting 200-grain spitzers have virtually identical trajectories. The difference is that the .270 arrives carrying roughly 1300 ft/lbs of energy (below the 1500 ft/lbs often cited as a minimum for elk) while the Winny will deliver over a ton of energy, almost 2300 ft/lbs What the great .270 is to deer and sheep, the .300 Winny is to elk. Bad medicine.

As to the 7mm Remington Magnum, this fine caliber is often considered to be the ought-six's ballistic clone. The 7-Rem's small advantages in sectional density are offset by the .30-06's increased frontal area. The ought-six has an advantage in that more and heavier bullets are readily available, especially for the handloader, but basically, in the field you could choose one or the other and never notice the difference. So as versatile, accurate, and popular as this .284 is, the .30-06 retains an edge, and the .300 WinMag outclasses them both.

The .338 Winchester Magnum is another thing altogether. By all accounts a large caliber by North-American standards, it has been said that true recoil starts at the .338. A seasoned rifleman who practices regularly certainly should have no trouble handling the .338, but for many casual shooters, the .338 is simply too much rifle to shoot regularly or accurately.

It is noteworthy, however, that in terms of the wide spectrum of game animals available in North America, the .338 is probably the most well centered. A fair choice for the big brown bears (though a .375 H&H is superior for this work by an order of magnitude), the .338 is rightly considered by many as the preeminent elk caliber, while still being plenty flat enough for whitetails, antelope, and even coyotes. Take the big bears out of the equation, however, which they are for the vast majority of hunters, and the .338 becomes a too large shoulder pounder for most weekend warriors, though still optimal for dedicated wapiti chasers. Let face it. You don't need a .338 for any whitetail walking the earth.

By contrast, the beauty of the .300 WinMag is that it is so well suited to the typical range of hunting experiences to be had in North America.

After plains game? 180-grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 ft/sec equal bad mule-deer medicine and devastating performance on pronghorns. The same load is a ringer in "beanfield" situations. Elk and moose in your plans? Load 200-grain Partitions or A-Frames at 2900 ft/sec, and be assured that you have the right gun! Feel like practicing on coyotes or chucks? Scream some 165-grain boattails at 3250 ft/sec, and worry about your end of the rifle.

Like with all calibers, there are situations where a different caliber would be ideal, but for all-around versatility, flat trajectory, and high energy, the .300 Winchester Magnum shines, maybe like no other.

In the end, the choice of an all-around rifle depends on many factors. If you like a gun, you are much more likely to shoot it and shoot it well, so choose a rifle you like. Also, any experienced rifleman knows that where you hit 'em is much more important than what you hit 'em with, so place your emphasis on skills rather than on the size of the rock. But when all that is said and done, take a good hard look at the .300 Winchester.

You may not look any further.

Last edited by Jeff_O; 02/04/11.

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Who's Jack Steele anywho?

Dober


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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
Who's Jack Steele anywho?

Dober


James Bond #22 in 'Triggerfinger', the Bond girls were extra grateful in that 'flick'.

Kent

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Thought it sounded familiar..<g>

Dober


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His gun was a magnum and he overpenetrated...

Kent

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Wasn't he Dr Ken Howell?

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grin

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Stuff kept jumping out at me when I read it, but he did that thing I hate when guys are comparing cartridges, where he picks a mild, low velocity for one but then a screaming, redline velocity for the other....

(200-gn bullet, 2550 fps for the 30-06 but 2950 fps for the 300 WM....)


The CENTER will hold.

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My thought is a 338 Win. Mag loaded with 225gr. Woodleighs and 71.0 grs. of H4350, Win. Brass and a 215M primer. This combo has killed at short to long range if you do you part.

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My 338 likes 67 gr. IMR 4350 and a 250 gr. sierra gameking. The elk don't like it as much grin


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Stuff kept jumping out at me when I read it, but he did that thing I hate when guys are comparing cartridges, where he picks a mild, low velocity for one but then a screaming, redline velocity for the other....

(200-gn bullet, 2550 fps for the 30-06 but 2950 fps for the 300 WM....)


That's because just like elk killing, either work to do the job. Rifle gack is one thing... killings animals is another...

Kent


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Yeah, but he was mis-stating the speeds to sway the argument falsely... I hate that.

In my .338 I like the 225-Accubond. My elk hunting buddy Jerry killed two elk with that bullet. It was impressive. My rifle loves them, and they've got a great BC so they stretch the .338's legs to a legit 600+ yards...

I'm sure most if not ALL hunting bullets will, shall we say, cleany take elk from a .338. smile I like how the 225-NAB performs both near and far. Getting them at the BiMart in my tiny rural town, doesn't suck either.





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Well, looking at the hodgdon data... 200gr in 3006 tops at about 2400 and 300 mag at 2962... where's the beef.

A 165gr hornady interlock will kill an elk out of a 300 going 3100 at 620 yds, DRT, seen it.

My 338 killed 4 elk the first year I had it, 40 to 295 yds, 200gr factory winchester powerpoints... farthest went 40 yds dead on it's feet. That gun killed subsequent elk and deer the next seasons, including my nephew at 12 yrs old and his first cow elk. My brother loved the way it shot so much I gave it to him.

My 3006 has killed more elk than any other gun I have, the last three with a 165 TSX behind 57grs H4350 going 2830 cronied. All DRT, my wife killed her first elk with it.

I personally have only killed two elk with a gun, my first with the 3006 many moons ago, and my last on a leftover cow tag last year. Enrique here sold me a 99 in 308 and I reloaded some 150gr Hndy GMX seconds I got from Midway, 2600 fps, because I wanted to try the H4895 I was loading for 30-30 at the time. DRTed a cow early the first morning of the hunt, 175ish, I didn't range.

Oh, my SIL killed his first bull with my 270 and a factory 150 NP, just cause he was scared of bigger guns, one shot, it went 20 yds.

All my other elk kills have been archery, except the bull I killed with my truck going 50 mph... not sure how fast that is in fps but I had plenty of energy and 0 penetration... though he bounced off my grill and windshield so hard it broke tines.

Anyway, there's not been one of the 60+ rifle kills I've been on that BC or a 338 made a difference over what was carried.

Kent

PS, I post this because it's in the elk hunting, therefore killing section... I leave the gun gack to the hunting rifle section, totally different relevance there.

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50 pages.....no firm resolution,nor convincing eveidence on the "Perfect Elk Cartridge"..... smile

Lots of opinions, though... whistle




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
50 pages.....no firm resolution,nor convincing eveidence on the "Perfect Elk Cartridge"..... smile

Lots of opinions, though... whistle


That is because there is no universal �best�. (As you already know... smile )

If I were to spec out one for myself:

1. Lightweight � about 5 pounds all up. 4 would be even better.
Short barrel � about 20� max, with low report and flash.
2. Mild recoil - .30-30 level would be good.
3. .338�/225g or .375�/300g bullet at around 3200fps � or similar and/or faster
4. Synthetic stock with matte, dark stainless action and barrel.
5. Bughole accurate.
6. Comes with a winning lottery ticket...


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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