|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 10,011 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 10,011 Likes: 4 |
FB's just pissed that the AF didn't get to wax him solo from 30k feet. Not even on my radar as a reason. If the original plan had been for the Navy to Tomahawk his ass, I'd feel the same way. Are you freaking serious? Knowing what you know now and you are still making those calls. Thank goodness you are not calling the shots. Either of the choices you endorse would have destroyed the intel they are gathering. That information may save MANY more American lives. It cannot hurt for sure. All you are worried about is the enemy capturing and building a "super copter" based on the tail housing. Sheesh!!! What intel? Neither you, nor I, nor probably anyone on this site has a clue what intel we grabbed. Is it worth more than the stealth tech we may have given up? Do you know? I'm merely pointing out that making decisions based on political motives CAN have consequences. True, we don't know, yet. But your methods would have insured that we wouldn't have recovered anything. How are you getting to send in the baddest of the bad (the Seals) with the best equipment a political statement? It is no more a political statement than sending a bomber or Tomahawk. It was a very risky call to send in the Seals just on the happen chance that there would be intelligence to recover. Turns out that it was the right decision. How in the living hell can you extrapolate a bunch of backwards thinking people can take that helicopter tail and turn it into a stealth weapon to be used against us? Sell it to the Russians? They have plenty that can wipe us out far quicker than a sneaky helo or aircraft. They have as many smart thinkers as anybody and they are still years behind us. Yeah, this little bit may turn on a light bulb that they never thought of, but I will lay odds that the stuff that was gathered in that compound turns out to be far more valuable than the "stealth risk" you are all wrapped around the axle about.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748 |
How many long range strike missions have been conducted to hit "key leaders"? A lot... The problem is that it is very difficult to know if you accomplished the mission in a case like this. The way they did it was appropriate. Military equipment is meant to be used, period. The fact that this helicopter, and others like it, got trained killers in place to put two bullets through bin laden's head and take his body and any other intelligence means it did it's job. MISSION SUCCESS!! Compromising whatever they did is trivial in this case.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 10,011 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 10,011 Likes: 4 |
Nope, it didn't happen..... And we never landed on the moon.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
Are you freaking serious? Knowing what you know now and you are still making those calls. Thank goodness you are not calling the shots. Either of the choices you endorse would have destroyed the intel they are gathering.
That information may save MANY more American lives. It cannot hurt for sure. All you are worried about is the enemy capturing and building a "super copter" based on the tail housing.
Sheesh!!!
What intel? Neither you, nor I, nor probably anyone on this site has a clue what intel we grabbed. Is it worth more than the stealth tech we may have given up? Do you know? I'm merely pointing out that making decisions based on political motives CAN have consequences. True, we don't know, yet. But your methods would have insured that we wouldn't have recovered anything. How are you getting to send in the baddest of the bad (the Seals) with the best equipment a political statement? It is no more a political statement than sending a bomber or Tomahawk. It was a very risky call to send in the Seals just on the happen chance that there would be intelligence to recover. Turns out that it was the right decision. How in the living hell can you extrapolate a bunch of backwards thinking people can take that helicopter tail and turn it into a stealth weapon to be used against us? Sell it to the Russians? They have plenty that can wipe us out far quicker than a sneaky helo or aircraft. They have as many smart thinkers as anybody and they are still years behind us. Yeah, this little bit may turn on a light bulb that they never thought of, but I will lay odds that the stuff that was gathered in that compound turns out to be far more valuable than the "stealth risk" you are all wrapped around the axle about. The original plan was to use B-2's. Obviously those a little higher up the food chain, than you or I, felt that was the best plan, potential intel or not. It was a political decision to not have collateral damage that caused Obama to nix the B-2 plan and delay the mission for weeks while they prepared the special ops mission. You're being obtuse if you think my concern is with the helo being handed over to the Paki's or AQ. More likely, it would be worth far more to them to sell it to the Russians or Chinese. Now maybe it's not an issue, but I was merely pointing out that this is a potential unintended consequence of making decisions that are more risky, because you don't want to kill too many bad guys.
![[Linked Image]](http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member651.png)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
this kind of mission was what this bird was designed for. As far as going to to the moon i have never been convinced 100% we actually did and it wasn't just staged for the Russies
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
The B-2s and the B-1 should be scrapped. They no longer have a mission. The F-15E or a drone would have been the right choice.....if it had ever happened.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
How many long range strike missions have been conducted to hit "key leaders"? A lot... The problem is that it is very difficult to know if you accomplished the mission in a case like this. The way they did it was appropriate. Military equipment is meant to be used, period. The fact that this helicopter, and others like it, got trained killers in place to put two bullets through bin laden's head and take his body and any other intelligence means it did it's job. MISSION SUCCESS!! Compromising whatever they did is trivial in this case. Yes and no. We have a shytload of equipment that would be worth a hell of a lot more to our enemies, than Obama's head. That's not to say that is the case here, but one cannot making a blanket statement that because a mission is a success, that what ever it cost is of no consequence.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411 |
If a covert mission to take out Osama bin Laden deep in a semi-hostile country doesn't rate our best technology, then I don't know what kind of mission does rate the best. Really....like, what are you saving it for if not whacking bin Laden?
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
It would have been a Drone if they had decided to use a Smart Bomb. I believe this was a good training mission for the Seal Team because this seems to have been a soft target instead of the hard one they expected.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516 |
Yes, Steve, that's what I was saying.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,863
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,863 |
up close and personal is the only way to eliminate people like OBL RAH-66 COMANCHE STEALTH HELICOPTER ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/bea175/comanche.jpg) I thought the Comanche program got the budget axe a few years ago?? It was a Sikorsky product, they're not showing it under Mil. construction.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
Yes, Steve, that's what I was saying. So, um.... what would you use it for? And, what would you use it for as a test run?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,147 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,147 Likes: 2 |
I'd stick swampy on ignore but it's like a car wreck. I just can't turn away to see what depth of stupidity he'll sink to next. 
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
If you had personal & current experience beyond watching movies you'd know I'm right.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411 |
Yes, Steve, that's what I was saying. I agree....I don't get the OP's point. this is the bigget deal a specops team is ever going to be in on...this is exactly the time you want to use all the cool toys, assuming they've been practiced with enough to be reliable. if this ain't a big enough deal...WTF are we saving it for?
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
up close and personal is the only way to eliminate people like OBL RAH-66 COMANCHE STEALTH HELICOPTER I thought the Comanche program got the budget axe a few years ago?? What the Government tells you and what is the truth usually isn't the same. You may be right tho
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,147 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,147 Likes: 2 |
If you had personal & current experience beyond watching movies you'd know I'm right. I do. You don't, you're wrong.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748 |
...but one cannot making a blanket statement that because a mission is a success, that what ever it cost is of no consequence. Of course not. But a mission into Pakistan to get bin laden IS worth the risk of compromise of helo technology. I'll bet the odds are pretty high we get that stuff back anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,863
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,863 |
up close and personal is the only way to eliminate people like OBL RAH-66 COMANCHE STEALTH HELICOPTER I thought the Comanche program got the budget axe a few years ago?? What the Government tells you and what is the truth usually isn't the same. You may be right tho Sikorsky isn't showing it on their production & overseas sales lists. When the AH-64 came out in the late 80's McDonald Douglas was very proud of it and it was the newest thing since sliced bread. They showed it on their production list and had it available for overseas sales. What crashed might of been some prototype 66's that Sikorsky had built and the Army took them off their hands. The 160th has been flying armed Hughes(now Boeing) 500 series aircraft for years, that weren't used throughout the Army other then 160th Bn's. They might of grabbed these Sikorsky proto-type 66's. I know some were built, i saw a Discovery Ch. TV show of a Sikorsky test pilot showing it off.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
I'm not in the "it's a conspiracy, the government owes us all the full story, with pics" camp.
I do have a couple of questions though. That 'stealth chopper' is an attack helo, not a UH. What was it doing that close to the target? I'm just an old grunt, but wouldn't that, if it was there, be used for cover, and thus be better off at a distance to avoid ground fire and have a bigger field of view?
The team on the ground was supposedly 25 men, delivered by 2 blackhawks. Can one blackhawk extract 25 seals? Maybe the 2 blackhawks did make it, and this was the helo tht crashed?
By the way, the decision to do it up close and personal, netted lots of potential intel, and a CONFIRMED kill on UBL. It was the right thing to do, and the VERY best we have in both technology, equipment, and personnel was absolutely the right way to go.
Last edited by .280Rem; 05/03/11.
War Damn Eagle!
|
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,977
Posts18,519,909
Members74,020
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
