Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles "Brush" guns

It only kills deer...not brush...trust me...

The kiss of death...?

Enough to have you waking up at night screaming...

He could be sucking up, agreeing with you, looking for a buddy. And you were not even pimping a 180 gr. Core Lokt in a wood stocked 30-06 Model 700, the mother of all rifles...

Red flags up...

Yep...I'm sleeping with a gun tonight...

ingwe,

I'll be in your town this weekend. Maybe you could buy me a beer?


Travis

35 Rem. This is my .358 Win:

Got yer controversy right here, O Grand One...


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I've assumed in my 10-year hunting career that it was OK to shhot through light brush as long as the brush was very close to the deer (and not close to me). The physics seem simple to me; a bullet can't deflect much in a few yards. Acting on this assumption, I've shot a few deer under such circumstances and, in fact, hit them right where I expected to.

Some discussions lately made me wonder if I was being to casual in this assumption, so I shot a test the other day. Results are below.

I was shooting from 20-40 yards away. Brush was no further than about 8 feet from the target. I moved it three times. I changed my shooting position each shot to insure that each shot hit brush, and each shot DID hit plenty of brush, some quite a bit of the stuff.

The first two setups are a shot I'd take on game. Though nothing bad happened on the third setup, I probably wouldn't take that shot.

Rifle: Model 7 in .358, 20" barrel

Load: Sierra 225-gn Game King, 2500 fps MV

Setup one:



The result of setup one:



Setup two, below:



Result of setup two:



Setup three, below:



Result of setup three. This is the aggregate group from the three tests:



This was as I expected. It was nice to see it work out like I'd expected, though. It may be that if I'd fired more shots I'd have seen something different.

What about over-penetration. You might accidentally get two with one shot.

As others have pointed out, the FIRST requirement of a good "brush gun" is that it be short, fast handling, and balanced to give you the best chance of placing a quick shot accurately. If that first shot can't be gotten off quickly, you will almost certainly be faced with a more difficult (likely moving) target and your odds of placing that first shot properly are reduced.

I DO believe that the ability to get off a quick second shot is important, not to "blast away" at a running deer, but because it often happens in really thick brush that the deer has not identified or located you.....he has moved out because "something isn't right" but may not know exactly where you are or what you are. At the sound of a shot, many times a deer will freeze trying to locate the danger. This allows a second chance if thefirst shot didn't connect. That's not even considering the possibility of multiple targets when hogs are encountered.

As to the argument about slow/heavy verses light/fast chamberings, I can only offer 40+ years of experience hunting in the Big Thicket of East Texas where a 25 yard shot i sometimes considered "long range". While it is true that NO bullet can encounter anything except the very lightest obstruction without being deflected, the heavier bullet (due to momentum) MAY give some small advantage. This is not a reason to fire through brush instead of picking an opening as the amount of deflection is un predictable.....but in thick stuff ANY advantage is worthwhile.

The main advantage of the slow/heavy bullet is NOT to avoid deflection (that's going to happen), but to hold together better against light brush. This is more a function of velosity than caliber......however small bore rifles do tend to also be high velosity rounds.

At 2500 fps (or less) a bullet tends to stay in one piece wheather it hits a bone or limb. It mat deflect, but tends to NOT explode. IF you get lucky and connect with a deer after hitting light brush, the intact bullet can still be effective (notice I DID say "lucky"). A typical high velosity, cup-and-core bullet (over 2800 fps) tends to come apart when it strikes any resistance (that's why you use them....more damage when you hit an animal). The worst offender in my experience is the .243....not surprising as it has little momentum due to a light bullet as well as high velosity fragile bullets. Once again, this is a very small advantage, but it does exist....and in brush you need every advantage you can get.

The advantage of a bigger bore size is two-fold. First a bigger bullet leaves a bigger hole. This allows more blood to come out and more air to get into the chest. The result is a quicker (most times) death of the animal. This is mostly due to the lungs collapsing, stopping blood flow to the brain. A small bore bullet CAN (and sometimes does) kill just as quickly, but over time you will find the bigger bore bullet is more effective. This is important because in thick brush, the shorter distance a deer tavels, the easier it is to find afterward.

The second advantage of the big bore is the amount of blood it allows to pour out of a wound. Blood loss (to kill) is NOT the main advantage as internal bleeding kills just as effectively as external bleeding. The real egde come when you try to find the animal after the shot. In really thick brush a deer that runs jus 50 yards can be VERY difficult to locate....unless there is a good blood trail to follow. That's where the big bore hole gives you the advantage....more blood on the ground.

The bigger, heavy bullet at lower velosity also tends to penetrate better than the high velosity, fragile bullets. This means a hole in and a hole out.....more blood on the ground and more air in the chest.

To me, the "perfect" brush gun is a quick handling rifle with a big bore, relatively slow bullet of heavy-for-caliber weight. Add up the very small advantages mentioned and while none of thos advantages are significant by themselves, together they give you a definite edge.....and you neeed all the edge you can get when things are tight.

My own "brush guns" I use most often are a Ruger 44 Carbine and Marlin 1895 lever gun in .45-70.....both are used when I am in the really thick stuff. If I anticipate a possible shot of over 100-150 yards, I will be carrying my Savage 99 in .358 Win. (or possibly the Savage 99 in .308).

For general hunting I still tend to carry something that will perform in the brush (even if I give up some speed) such as a Ruger Mannlicher in .308 or my main rifle, an FN Mauser .30-06. I do have many rifles chambered for lighter, higher velosity rounds and I like them, but I reserve their use for more open terrain than the thickets of East Texas. It may not matter, but I just feel better putting all the odds I can in my advantage.

Add some persistent drizzle to the thick-stuff equation and there's even more reason for a great blood trail. Make the shot close and the shot angles sort of a "take what can get" affair and that 2500 fps looks pretty good as far as meat damage.

If I'm using plenty of gun and bullet, which I so far always am, I have zero hesitation shooting through light brush if it's close to the animal, not me as illustrated in my post above. If I were running light/fast/fragile, which so far I never am, then forget it.

I go with a brush-hog and 416 ruger.

Man I've killed an arkfull of deer with 12 gauge shotgun slugs and another arkfull with rifles ranging from .22-.35 caliber. After all that killin' I say with confidence that the guys singing the praises of "big bores" as being quicker killers are ALL WET !

I would love to, but I'm heading out at noon Sat. to go to SLC and pick up Chesty's Marine, and bring him back Sunday night for his Handling school...It's time to turn the little dude over!

Jeff O ...interesting pics and test...the other big variable, as you know, is if the brush is closer to you than the animal...then things can really go awry........

Saw JB take a whack at a springbok with a .338 and the bullet hit a stick a few yards from the muzzle...not a clue where it went, but I think it broke through the atmosphere, and we didn't have to worry about it burning up on re-entry...

Quantify "arkfull". Want to make sure I use it in the proper context.

I own several rifles I take into the brush if I'm walking/stalking. All are short, fairly light, point and come to the shoulder easily and are accurate. Mine are in larger bore sizes, .35 Rem, .358 Win, , 45/70's, and a .307 Win. They are in lever guns and shoot big fat slow bullets because I like them to run like me, big, fat and slow.

I don't know if they run through the brush any straighter than the other calibers I own, I always wait for a good shot.

If you want a dedicated, short range deer, hog or bear rifle, I don't see how you beat a Marlin 336 in 30-30 or 35 Remington with a good low powered scope.

Otherwise, you can shoot em with anything from a .223 to an elephant gun and be successful.

Theres something to that, I've shot a pile of deer with a .30-30 and under 200 yds. it is what your daddy always told you...a near perfect deer round...

Here's my "brush" guns. From bottom to top:

Browning B92 .44 Mag
Marlin 336CS .30-30
Marlin 375 .375 Win
Marlin 1895 .45-70




The .44 Mag was my predator protection (2 and 4 legged) for many years when camping with the family. 10 rounds in the tube, very light and handy.

Up here we either burn the brush or mow it. Shooting it might make you feel like you are getting something done (recoil) but it really has very little effect on the brush.

I had a M94 winchester in 44 mag years ago in college I used to hunt pigs and shoot sharks with...worked good....and didnt have to worry about the brush with the sharks!