Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Fallacies, fantasies, and our big game rifles

I'm getting to the age where fantasies, and fallacies, concerning our big game rifles are getting pretty old. How long did I indulge myself in these things ? How much did it cost ? I'm not going to tell you. But, I am going to tell you what I had to learn the hard way. First, which catriage is best ? There are only three classes of big game cartriages; (1) the .243, and it's relatives; (2) the 308, and it's relatives; and (3) .375 and it's relatives. All the rest of the discussions are nonsense. I remember an article by the late Jack O'Connor. He told a story about a recent trip to Africa. One of them carried a 7X57. One of them shot a .280 Rem. And one of them used a 7 mm Rem. Magnum. His conclusion was that the animals shot with the 7X57 might have taken one, or two, steps more than those shot with the 7 mm Magnum. He couldn't tell the difference in the wounds made by either of them. Recently, we've had our own JJ Hack state that he stopped using the 300 Weatherby, and went to the 30'06 because he couldn't tell any difference in the effectiveness of the two, unless the range was over 350 yds. Nobody challenged him on this. We were too busy giving him a hard time because he had the gall to tell us that energy figures were worthless when comparing big game cartriages. Everybody, except me. JJ has seen more critters shot than I can imagine, I'm sure. But, I've done enough of them to know that a good bullet is far more important than the cartriage. And the guy behind it is even more important. Can he shoot ? How well ? Does he practice ? I don't mean going to range and shooting off of a bench. I mean shooting from field positions, under pressure. I've got lots of friends who shoot magnums. One of them we'll call Bob. Bob hunts elk with a 7 mm Mag. But, when he hunts Mule Deer, he carrys a .25-06. Why ? He shoots a .25-06 much better than a 7 Mag. I think he'd be much better off with an '06 than a 7 Mag. In fact, I'll go so far as to say he'd be better off with his .25-06 than his 7 Mag. when hunting elk. But, I can't tell him that. I wish him luck. He'll probably need it. This isn't all. I'll discuss rifle design, scopes, and long range shooting in other posts. This one will do for now. What do you think ? E

Eremicus,<P>Good post, and a great point. The effectiveness of a given round is determined by the guy holding the gun, assuming that the round is even remotely suited to the game being pursued. I have always thought that these 270 vs 280 vs 06 debates were a bunch of BS. In your rather broad general classifications, the cartridges that comprise your categories will all be within a few hundred fps of one another at a given bullet weight. What does that truly translate to? Nothing more than some minor variations in the maximum point blank range. So that means that a 300 WM will give me a substantially longer point blank range than the 308 or 06 with the same weight bullet, right? What does that really get me in the field? Let's compare the 308 and 300 WM using the same bullet. I ran the numbers using Hodgdon's published maximum velocities for a Nosler 150 gr Partition with a BC of .387. I assumed a rather generous 10" kill zone for my calculations. All calculations were done using Point Blank ballistics software (available for free at <A HREF="http://www.HuntingNut.com)." TARGET=_blank>www.HuntingNut.com).</A> The results:<P>Out of the 308 (with a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps) the maximum point blank range is 344 yards. Even at 400 yards the bullet is only 12" below the line of sight.<P>The 300 WM is a lot better, right? You decide. The maximum point blank range (with a muzzle velocity of 3200 fps) is 383 yards. A gain of 39 yards over the 308. Plus, it will take the 300 WM the whole way to 450 yards before it is 12.5" below the line of sight. A net gain of 50 yards, at best, over the 308. If your curious, the 308 is still only 18" below the line of sight at 450 yards.<P>Ah, but what about energy? At 400 yards, an arbitrary distance that I chose, the energy of the 308 with the 150 gr Nosler Partition is 1400 fpe. The 300 WM retains 400 additional fpe to clock in at 1800 fpe. I doubt that most mule deer or elk or antelope really care whether they get hit with 1400 or 1800 fpe, and I am willing to bet that either is sufficient remaining energy to drop the animal at 400 yards, IF the bullet is in the right spot. <P>I have seen this first hand on several occasions. Several years ago, four of us went to Wyoming to hunt mule deer. We drew Region F general tags, and hunted the National Forest and BLM land along the South Fork of the Shoshone River. One guy took his dad's super flat shooting magnum, because he thought that his 30-06 wasn't flat shooting enough for the wide open spaces of Wyoming. Another took the rifle he had hunted with for years - his 308 Browning BLR with 3X9 on top of it and using factory ammo. The guy with the BLR made a shot with his 308 that impresses me to this day. He shot a nice 3 X 3 mulie above Cabin Creek. The distance was a good solid 350 yards (confirmed after the fact with a rangefinder). His factory loaded 150 gr bullet passed straight through the deer at that distance, taking out the heart and lungs along the way. We found the deer about ten yards from where it was hit. One shot, in the right spot, and the deer was down with a 308 at an impressive distance. We still kid him that he shot the deer at 50 yards and then ran to drop his backpack further up the hill before we arrived. ;-) Was it the gun that made this kill? No, it was good marksmanship that was a result of practice from field shooting positions. He made the shot from a sitting position with his arms resting on his knees - a shooting position that he had practiced all summer before the hunt. Plus, he shot at ranges other than 100 yards. We have steel plates on our range at random distance. These plates range in size rrom 8" to 12" at ranges up to 400 yards. Shooting at these plates from field positions for a few months prior to the hunt really made him aware of his rifle's capabilities. <P>The guy with the super flat shooting magnum? He missed several deer over the course of the week. Those misses included one at less than 100 yards. The rifle never seemed fit him right and it was obvious that he was not familiar with it. Would he have been better off bring the 30-06 that he shot with all of the time? Without a doubt. <P>Please DON'T take this as a 300 WM bashing post, or even one championing the 308 or 06 or any other caliber. I shoot a 300 WM, a 280, a 6.5/303 wilcat, several single shot handgun calibers, etc. I like them all, or they would have been sold long ago. Which one is the best on any given day afield? The one that I am the most comfortable with. That's the one that I have recently been working out a load for. I have spent three days a week on the range with it over the past three months. I have had it apart, inspected, cleaned, and tweaked it to give me the best possible performance. THAT'S the gun I need in the field, NOT the one thats been in the gun cabinet for the past year that MIGHT give me a 50 yard perforance edge on paper. <P>------------------<BR>Stush<p>[This message has been edited by Stush (edited March 30, 2001).]

Thanks, Stush. More good points. E

E and Stush,<BR>Enjoyed your posts, and agree completely. Hope this doesn't upset owners of the magnum types, as 39 extra yards may well be worth any minor inconveniences to them, and many are not significantly handicapped by the added recoil, etc. I'm sure that if more hunters clearly understood the Big Picture, as you have presented it, they might also understand why some of us still find legitimate use for cartridges such as the .35 Rem. and .30-30 Win., where the vast majority of shots are taken at well under 200 yards. Imo, if a chosen rifle/cartridge combination is suitably accurate and powerful for the game pursued, it need not be maligned just because it is not at the cutting edge of high technology. If carrying that rifle adds to the pleasure of the hunting experience, why condemn it? A little more tolerance for the views of others seems a good thing.

Very nice post, not everyone can say it. -- no

Eremicus<BR>You make a bunch of good points which I have been coming around to, of late. One point though, your first two groups of cartridges are one and the same. The 243 is just a necked down 308. Must mean you really believe in it.<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

I was just being combative. What I should have said is the 30'06 family. That would get more agreement, but sometimes it's fun to argue. E

Ok, I'll play devils advocate, even though I must agree with the premise.<P>I like my magnum. I didn't always, and should have started with a .308, or similar, but I've grown used to it, and may finally be approaching the point where I can appreciate the advantages of it. With good shoulder pads and synthetic stocks, I think the 'reasonable' magnums (hows that for a subjective qualification?) are very shootable for the majority of hunters. I know it doesn't kill any better. Heck, the swedes use the 6.5x55 on moose. But, they don't hunt the same woods with brown bears, either. I'll never look down on somebody elses cartridge choice 'cause it aint as big as mine, but I'll keep my .300 win, thanks.<P>Back to you <BR>John

I'm not "anti-magnum" per se. I do believe that they are not anything like what many would have us believe. Their big advantage is more power beyond 300-350 yds. But for that, one pays a high price. If your comfortable with the extra recoil, rifle weight, and blast, go for it. Some have found that it isn't worth it. The US Army, for instance, had their M24 Sniper rifles built to accomindate the .300 Win. Mag. by simply rechambering them, and opening the bolt face. When they tried to make them work, they discovered it wasn't practical. First, they couldn't get the accuracy, at 800-1300 yds., that they needed. Second, the ammunition for the .308 was improved to allow better long range performance. And lastly, the guys shooting it found it to require a lot more work for almost no real gain. So, they continue to use the .308. My basic thrust is that the bullet you use is far more important than the cartriage that propels it. When you start trying to hit critters beyond 300 yds. you need good range info, and you must consider the wind. Magnums do shoot closer than standard rounds, but you must still make adjustments when shooting at longer ranges. More on this later. E.

E, Stush, et al. : Don't say that! Be quiet! Do you have any idea what will happen to the gun trade, not to mention the magazine trade, if Mr./Ms. General Public figure out that they just don't need another rifle?<P>Stop pestering everyone with real hunting observations. You're upsetting marketing spin here that's older than all of you! Put those .308s and .270s down and learn to shoot the RUMs like a real hunter. <P>Can't put 'em in the target with those rifles? Heck, just buy our latest issue. We'll be glad to tell you how. <P>My fingers are in my ears, Talus (.270 shooter)

Hey wait a moment, are you telling me that Joe Bigbrain the world renouned gun scribe is full of heated air? Are you saying that I, me the the hunter of all big game animals in my dreams does not need the new Loudboomin earsplittin 719 double magnum. why that is nonsence I make all my shots at over 600 meters,I'm hip to the new world ways, and I never miss. I also must have that new high dollar german/swiss/austrian scope. The gun rags say they are the best I'll give all my old Leo's to the Salvation Army. Gee wizz this years new gun combo will only set me back 3 grand, oh what the heck baby child can go another year with out gettin that hear operation. Gotta go back to flippen them Big Macs, breaks over.<P>Bullwnkl's next door neighbor.<P>I never miss.<P>Who do mags write their script too? My neighbor?<P>Bullwnkl.

OK. I suppose I'll also post from the magnum users perspective. It always seems like the premise behind these standard/magnum discussions is as follows - #1.) The magnum user thinks that he "needs" the extra energy produced and #2.) The magnum shooter uses this extra energy to make up for poor accuracy. In essence, using the power of a magnum to compensate for the inability to place the bullet where it needs to be. These are both rather large misconceptions.<P>It's been said in this string that no matter what is used (magnum or standard) to some extent everything needs to be doped for wind and drop. True. Through practice, this is relatively easy to do at average distances, but with farther ranges, it becomes simple guess work. More so with some cartridges then others. The least that a shooter has to hold over for drop or hold into the wind for drift lessens the amount of guess work involved. Here's where the offered trajectory advantage of a magnum comes into play. It's been argued to sneak closer, that the skill of stalking is a lost art. Great idea, in theory, but anyone who's hunted the open MT plains knows that the stalk of an already shot-shy, suspecting Mule Deer buck is no option. So you do two things. You either purchase the cartridges that can successfully make the shot or you watch your hunting season pass by, hoping something comes within 250 yds (good luck). Not my kind of hunting. <P>It's also been said that there is no real difference between point blank ranges of 344 yd. and 383 yd. I wonder how many of us, unaided by a rangefinder, could properly guess ranges at these distances. The difference between 144 yds and 183 yds may be insignificant, but you add 200 yds to those distances and its night and day for most. Miscalculation of 20 yds. at this range for guns that aren't capable equals missed shots or worsem ... wounded game. <P>I also don't buy into the premise that the animal doesn't know weather it's being hit by 1400 or 1800 ft. lbs. of energy. How the heck do we know this? Who among has the device that measures this? None of us. There's simply no way of telling what specific energy level is needed to do a given job. Hell, .22-250's have killed everything this continent has to offer. Would we then argue that it's plenty for elk & bear at 300 yds? Some may, but I certainly wouldn't. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean it's the best medicine for the task at hand. With that said, I find it beneficial to error on the side of caution and have the extra punch, if only for that one single time when it proves itself handy to have in the field. <P>Back to the misconceptions, I think that the bottom line is, magnums can be shot just as accurately as "any" standard offering, and with accuracy being equal, there's just to many advantages that my magnums offer me not to use them. You can certainly shrug off the extra power, the faster velocity and the trajectory benifits as unnecessary. Many do. But the fact still remains, the advantages exist. If you choose not to use them, that's certainly your privilage and I'd not hold a single thing against you for choosing not to. Later. >> klallen

Since my name was brought up here, by others. I will post something to be certain what my feelings and opinions are is clear. <P>I own two rifles, the 30/06 and the 375HH(a magnum) I had a 300 weatherby for many years though. The difference in the 300 weatherby and the 30/06 to me was as stated above about 50-70 yards in effective trajectory. and within the fist 350 yards of range nothing in killing power. I say this after taking at least 100 big game with the 300 mag some at embarrasing distance. <P>Will the game know the difference between 1400 and 1800 FPE? not that I can see. both bullets into the chest at 300 yards kill equally. However a standard construction bullet from a 30/06 will out penetrate the same bullet at 100 yards from a 300 mag most if not all the time. <P>I swapped out the 300 mag for the 30/06 years ago. I have never noticed any, even tiny advantage in shooting the 300 mag. In all honesty I load the 30/06 pretty hot and shoot 165 grain bonded core premium bullets. My rifle is not far from some factory loads in the 300 mag. But it's still a 30/06. If I had the 300 mag my loads would have to be hot(reduced loads don't work well in mags) and I would have to use the 26" barrel instead of the 22" barrel I have now.<P>As far as the difference between 340 and 380 yards being known, I can't argue that I sure cant do it. But is it that much of a worry within the reality of hunting? My 30/06 drops 11.5 inches at 350 yards with a 250 yard zero and a 3" high 100 yard point. It's taped on my stock and easily seen to check on when in doubt. I have in the past shot game pretty far. But by doing so I hope I can teach or persuade others to rethink this. Unless you have shoot thousands of rounds at long distance and are well practiced like our old buddy Big Stick then shooting over 300-350 yards is unrealistic. Just think about all the possible things that can happen when you turn losse a bullet at that distance. How many things can happen to give you the desired result? Only one thing! A good solid hit. Yet anything else that happens will ruin that one single good thing is it worth it? <BR>Lets say you have the magnum, without a range finder you see an animal at 440 yards and your gun is real flat shooting to 390 yards does the magnum allow the shot over the 30/06? you still have the same problem with or without the magnum and with the distance judging. All it does is give you errors at greater distance and the scale moves further out. How is that a good idea? <P>For realistic hunting and shooting at 300-350 yards which is still way to long for 90% of the guys out there the 30/06 is as good, not better or the "BEST" or all you need or the king of the hill. It's just works and works well. I have had them both and used and seen used lots of clients rifles. I can't see the advantage anymore. That is why I went back to it. <P>The 300 mag in a long case other then the 300 win mag makes a difference with bigger heavy bullets like 200 and over. They can really be launched with high velocity and flat trajectory. They have an advantage over the 30/06. However that is why we can buy a 338 win mag! I'm not anti magnum, I am a realist and understand the distance factor with these rifles and have a very high respect for game. I have never wounded or lost a big game animal in my life. That only comes from turning down all but the sure thing. I don't see many sure things over 300-350 yards, not in my lifetime!jj<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I generally only hunt deer and elk, but I have had the good fortune to be able to hunt deer in seven and elk in five states over the past 40 plus years. Although I have killed with a 270, 30-06, 30-30, 444 and few others, I have used primarily throughout my hunting career 308s and 300 Wins. I would be hard pressed to say that I could really discern the difference in the results of shooting an elk or a deer with a 308 or 300 Win. However, to JJ's point, I am extremely confident that by switching to premium bullets (Nosler Partitions) 10 years ago that the elk I have shot are anchored and die quicker with both of these calibers. Although it is too early in the process to say for sure (1 elk, 3 deer and 1 antelope), I started using a Whelen last season, and I am of the mind that there is a noticeable 35 caliber hammering effect on animals. In my limited world of hunting experience, shot placement, premium bullets and caliber size are much more important than magnum horsepower. CP.

JJHACK >> I do believe that we have just hit on the main difference between the competent standard cartridge user and the competent magnum cartridge user. The typical standard shooter believes that the 275 - 350 yd. shot is long and risky. The magnum user views the 300 - 350 yd. shot as common place and prepares himself for just such hunting.<P>I have set a limit for myself as far as distances that I will take a big game animal. This distance is based on the cartridges that I use and my ability to accurately use that round. If a condition arrises that renders my tools insufficient to guaranteeing me a riskless shot, then that shot is certainly passed up. I have no problem passing on game. With that said, it's easy to see longer range shooting requires "something" extra. That something is simple ballistics. I could really care less about energy or hitting power when distance shooting. Trajectory is the primary concern. If you've got the trajectory, big bullets are moving fast and the power needed will take care of itself. All cartridges offer ballistics to some extent. Some are more functional at longer ranges then others. While you have choosen to drop the .300 WbyMag for the '06 to match your hunting application, this move would be perposterous with regards to the conditions that I see year in and year out each hunting season. The '06 "would" function, but how well? Questionable, especailly when consideration is given to the options that are available today. Your 11.5" drop at 350 yds. basically means your holding well off of the kill zone on deer sized game in order to make a shot at that distance. Totally unacceptable for my shooting needs. When zeroed at 250 yds., the worst drop that I expect at 350 yds is 6", and that's a bit much. Wind drift NO worse then 3" at that distance in a 10 mph wind. With these requirements set, I don't have to consider holding off the kill zone to make a successful deer sized kill at 350 yds. and a little further. This eliminates most risk factors that would exist when adjusting for standard cartridge drop and wind drift. <P>Last years alone, 5 bucks were taken at ranges measured 345 yds. and better (yes we use range finders, guess work is not an option with long range shooting). We also value and respect that which we hunt and "lost game" is not part of the vocabulary. All the tools we use eliminate guessing. Rangefinders for exact distances and appropriate cartridges to complete the shot. Now, this distances are posted to neither boast nor brag. It's just a note on the conditions that we regularly face when hunting. Would an 06 have worked ... yes. Are there things that are more appropriate for this type of hunting? Most certainly. TOTAL preparation with a magnum offering makes 350 yd. kills (and farther) an easy and humaine proposition. Later. >> klallen

Bull, kl, others: Please forgive me as I like to poke fun at sacred things and am both contrarian and suspicious by nature.<P>I know as well as I'm sitting here that there are many "magnum" shooters here that shoot well at paper and game, and who get the most out of their equipment. My hat's off to them/you. Honest.<P>I'm sure you'll agree that the avergage poster here is probably at the top of the heap in hunting and shooting ability compared to the general shooting public, those throngs who buy magazines (like I do) and keep gunmakers in business. Heck, most of the guys here make their own guns anyway!<P>To the average shooter -- please give me some liberty with this definition -- shot placement is easier with smaller guns. I'll just hold that to be self evident. For them large calibers are a disservice. I'm not talking about exceptions, I'm talking about rules/averages. <P>I know there are plenty of guys who can outshoot me using their .416s and myself with a .22 rimfire. And cheers for them! But if you take a .338 RUM and put it in the hands of most folks I hunt with, there are going to be a lot of wounded deer and discouraged people.<P>Here's the crux of what I'm trying to address, and it's something at the heart of many a thread which ends in disaster:<P>There are many elite shooters and hunters here. You know who you are, and that you posses some mixture of talent, passion, and resources which many others do not enjoy. You are also in the minority -- even here.<P>When elite folks get together, there is a danger that what follows will alienate others in the group. In this case, "others" means hunters in general, as well as other posters.<P>Please don't allow this to happen. If you are elite in your abilities, do your best to encourage others in the sport and not glorify yourselves. Non-elites (read I) need you guys. There's no other way we can grow. What do you want us to do, learn what we need from the hunting mags? We know where that will lead.<P>You supershooters need others as well. Without other people whom you respect involved in your hunting lives, your experiences will grow hollow and meaningless. When it's all over the shared experiences will be the ones you treasure, even if you must share them by story. If you don't agree with me on this, or if you are quick to shrug it off, I ask that you think about it for a while.<P>The "magnum" vs "non-magnum" debate is another of those places where elite shooters often are moved into defensive positions which harm the group as a whole. Again, I'm not saying this decay is taking place in this thread. It's not. This is just something I have been thinking about.<P>I say that if you're good and you know it you should be able to take the high road in debate or discussion. That's not to say that you should allow statements to go unchallenged. There's a fine line here, and how you walk it determines how much knowledge and ethic is successfully passed on.<P>Thanks for a fine thread. I hope the elite shooters and the average guys like me can use this forum for a better hunting experience. I know I have. <P>Putting away the soapbox, Talus

Klallen, of the 5 bucks that you referenced in your post, how many were spotted from a rig or a boat before you and your partners started your stalk? Please, there is nothing wrong with this technique in eastern Montana, except in my view it is more shooting than hunting and it tends to stretch the distances a guy has to shoot. CP.

Hey CP >> The shots that I speak of are taken on a large plot of family-owned land smack-dab in the middle of a HUGE "No Hunting ALLOWED" farm and ranch spread. You have the benefit of the heavily wooded river bottom below and the heavily desired (at least by the deer) wheat and barley stubble fields above. You don't spot them and stalk. You plant yourself somewhere in the middle of this large expanse and scope the ridges and bottoms. There's no place to hid or stalk once the deer start to move. If you're to far away from where they cross the family land, you have no shot. Bottom line is, you shot from where you set up, and no matter how much you scout for their most common crossings and plan out the perfect spots to set up ambush, the deer rarely cooperate. The distances of shot are certainly stretched and quick kills (with no hunting posts all around) are the name of the game. That's what we deal with.<P>Now CP, confusion's setting in. A few questions for you. What do ya mean this isn't hunting? Meats in the freezer and it requires the expense of a tag, no? To me shooting's done at the range in preparation for the hunt, hunting (regardless of where and how it's done), which requires shooting of course, takes place in the field with wild game in the sights. What we do is no more or less hunting then anything you do. Techniques may vary but the end result tends to be the same. Wheather you like to call it what it is or not, it's all hunting. I don't much agree with those that park it in tree stands by a man made feeder and wait for the deer to come within 20 yds for their "every" evening dinner. This to me is wrong. But is it hunting? To that fella in the stand it is. Just differnet ways to the same end means. Later. >> klallen

klallen. Well I see you have finally come a full 360 deg here and see this exactly as Emericus and I do. The difference between the 30/06 and the 300 mags is noticed only beyond 300-350 yards. Exactly what I said some time ago and evidently from your post an agreement!<P>I was shooting today in Eastern Washington. A beautiful sunny day with a light breeze. I had my 30/06 and 375HH identical trajectories by the way. Other shooters had a single 30/06 Remington, and several rifles including 300 mags, one was my old (previously owned)300 weatherby. We set out targets at 100 yards. 250 yards, 300 yards and we set out blaze orange clay pigeons(250 yards) and gallon milk jugs filled with water out to 350-375 yards. The shooters all have 25+ years rifles shooting experience except my brother who does not own a gun but goes with me ofetn hunting.<P>We took turns shooting the jugs, I was first. I missed the 350 yard jug by an inch or two low with my 30/06, second shot it exploded. Any big game animal would have been dead from either shot. Next guy shoots 5 times with the 300 win mag. Hits all around the jug but could not connect. These are all field positions not bench resting. The barrel was getting hot so the next guy shoots. Next guy shoots three times and all were low, He thinks something is wrong with the gun or ammo. He asks to use the 30/06 and we grant him the out of turn shots. He nails the 350 yard jug first try, then hit the 250 yard clay pigeon first try. Next shooter takes 3 more shots with a 340 weatherby. No water is leaking from the jugs! <P>My brother shoots next with my 30/06 at the 350 yard jug. I had to draw on the dusty pickup a sight picture for him to understand hold over and the slight windage we needed to adjust for. First shot a very near miss. second shot blown up jug, third shot blown up jug. He hands me the gun and claims this is better than a video game!<P>I shot the 375HH at a 250 yard clay pigeon and turn it to dust. The next shooter who was using the 300 win mag shoots five more times and never does hit the jug. I tell him to let me see the rifle. I load 3 shells in the magazine but none in the chamber. I tell him it's ready just click off the safety. He steadies the shot and concentrates and jerks the rifle off the rolled up jacket when he pulls the trigger. We all have a good laugh at him and hand him my 30/06. He shoots two jugs in the next two shots. Exclaiming that my rifle is the difference and that it is so fun to shoot because it has no recoil! This guy is also the typical guy we will read post after post from here about how recoil has no effect on him and he can shoot a 300 mag as good as a 30/06. On the way Home I quizzed him on this. He says now that he wants to get a Better recoil pad? But he still thinks the 300 is just as good. A dozen shots in total fired and never hit a jug with the 300 mag. 2 shots from the 30/06 both connect. You be the judge on that.<P>Now the real intersting thing that happend on the trip. One of the guys shoots ballistic tips. When we went to clean up the jugs after we had finnished shooting one of the jugs was empty but had something rattleing around inside. Low and behold a ballistic tip bullets lead was inside the jug but the jacket had gone through! Another example of the pathetic penetration of ballistic tips. How sad that a 180 grain ballistic tip did not penetrate a 1 gallon jug of water at 350 yards!.jj<P><P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Klallen, I have done a little stubble field shooting in my life and I appreciate some of the challenges that you described. However, it is not the same as dogging them out of the coulees, humping the Breaks or chasing them on public land in the Little Belts in my view. If you find satisfaction and reward in the way you take your deer, I am delighted for you. However, I would suggest to you that the vast majority of deer and elk in Montana are hunted under different circumstances than those that you encounter on your family farm, and I believe that there are significant distinctions between the two venues. Because I generally do not "hunt" deer in the wheat fields of eastern Montana, it may help explain why I am so indifferent about the need to pack a magnum. <P>For the first time in my life, I had the opportunity to hunt out of a box stand over a feeder in Texas this past season. This experience had a hell of a lot more in common with hay field shooting than the hunting that I do in the Metcalf, the Gravelly range and the Yaak. Never the less, it was a kick in the ass and if I am invited back, you can bet I'll go. CP. <BR>