Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Fallacies, fantasies, and our big game rifles

Well guys-great reading. Love the old mag vs standard debate. I own both and have one short input. Spend the time and shoot to become competent with what you own or sell it!

Goat, et. al.,<P>Another trick, I got from someone else,to work on flinch, is have dummy rounds loaded. You can even weight them with sand. I know people who try to fool themselves this way. Not quite sure exactly how that works...but if your shooting with a partner, you can do it pretty well.<P>John

Klallen, excellent reading, but it's a lost cause, few on these forums respect the valid benefits of magnum offerings. Had the legendary (in my mind) Big Stick been here, you would have been met with a much more understanding crowd. You know how it is.... When the cats away the mice will play. <BR> He's been gone only a few days and the dogs are loose, attacking long range shooters.

rayray<P>No ones really attacking long range shooters, just whether or not a magnum is really needed to shoot long range. I am certainly one who believes that a lot of long range shooting can and should be replaced by more practice of stalking and getting in position for a better shot. I am not against shooting long ranges as I do it on occasion myself. But I just about always try to get closer first and/or get a better shot presentation. I also decide when a shot is not feasible for where I am shooting from and whether the game shot will be recoverable. I have also made most of the longest shots with a 375 and 300 grain bullets and not the flatter calibers I own. Out of the 3 flattest calibers I own I have sold one, a 300 Win, and the other 2, a 300 Wby and 7 STW, are all the way in the back of my safe and will in all probability be sold. The lack of use of these rifles is not from lack of long range shooting or hunting but simply not needing them. I am also sure there are a lot of people out there that use a framing hammer to put up paneling or fix a roof.<P>------------------<BR><B>"The only thing to fear is fear itself"</B>

rayray<P>I don't see a single post saying that long range shooting is wrong or bad. What the original question was "is there a difference to 350 yards" between the 30/06 and 300 mag. with the stipulation of 350 yards this is clearly not a long range shooting thread.<P>I said I have shot deadly accurate rifles out to 600 yards and even longer hitting my targets consistantly. That is not magic or hearsay it is common with todays technology. BS and I would be, and are in 100% agreement on that. <P>The issue in THIS THREAD was not "long range" but honest differences to 350 yards. It got off track a bit which is common here. Remember the most intellegent people usually have a short attention span. So it goes on this forum. Topics rarely invlove the original idea after the 15th post or so. Anyone coming in at the end will never figure out what the heck transpired through the entire thread without reading all of the posts. jj<P><P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ,<BR>Are you saying that if I load a 300 win. ,with 200 grain Swifts, to nearly the same velocities (2900 fps) as in your 30-06 with 165 grain Swifts, that there will not be a noticeable difference in effect on game out to 350 yards? <BR>The trajectories here are still in favor of the 300 though (due to BC) they will be close, but the energy and weight of bullet, in my view will show a real difference in favor of the magnum.<BR>Am I missing something?

Yes, we need to talk apples and apples here with bullet weight. I already brought up the advantages of the magnum cartridges with heavy bullet weights in a post further up the thread. When you go to heavier bullets you also go down in velocity and then bullet integrity seems to work better with the impact velocities achieved. Certainly we cannot compare a 200 grain bullet to a 165 grain bullet at the same speed. Although in reality if two animals are hit in the same lethal location and both a use.308 daimeter how much difference will there be in a timely death? The heavy bullets have a huge advantage in penetration on quarteing shots, exits, and bone crunching power. I prefer bullets heavy for bore diameter in my 375HH but I prefer the 165 grain bullet in my 30/06 because it shoots so magically accurate. The 200 grain Nosler partition in my 300 weatherby was the same velocity and obviously had significant power increase over the 30/06 with the 165 grain load. On Paper!<P>However after seeing lots of game taken with both calibers I started seeing a trend. All animals hit with similiar shots died quickly from either cartridge. This was not a snap decision either. I was a very proud owner and defender of the Weatherby Philospophy of velocity. More years passed and more big to really big game was taken. I'm seeing a lot of game killed with my 300 weatherby and dozens of clients with 30/06's.<P> In Alaska for instance shooting caribou with both rifles under identical conditions with my hot handloaded 300 WTBY mag and 200 grain bullets and with clients 30/06's with cheap 15.00 a box factory ammo from wally world. We are dumping bulls out to 350+ yards on the open tundra while they graze. <P>Same results in Africa with dozens of large plains game. After a while you realize that the calculations on paper don't always add up to the same effect on living tissue. It did not take long before I started seeing the advantages of nearly zero recoil from a light weight 22" barreled rifle. <P>I have seen the 30/06 kill several brown bears, black bears, elk, mountain goats, bison,and dozens of eland, kudu, zebra, wildebeest. These are all big tough animals and were shot at distances from point blank to around 400 yards. I have never seen a single animal with a well placed shot fail to expire within a reasonable time. <P>Certainly a poor shot where big bones are hit would be better with 200 grain bullets with magnum velocity potential, but if we go there they would be better hit with something bigger then .308 in Diameter also!<P>As I have said I owned a 300 mag. I loved it for many years. However the reality of hunting with it changed as I gained more and more experience with actual animals being shot not the math formulas and energy tables. <P>The 30/06 or the 308 will be just as effective out to 350 yards as will the 300 mag. I am not basing this on tables, math formulas or some silly "feeling". Rather I am expressing my personal opionion from hundreds of big game being taken with all kinds of firearms over a 20+ year career in the big game hunting industry. <P>If I were in a situation where I needed to shoot game at 500 yards as a normal practice. the 30/06 would not be my choice. A magnum .308 caliber or better yet the 338/378 would get the call. That would buck wind and shoot more then flat enough to do the deed for me.jj<P><P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Hey thunderstick >> You're not the only one missing something in this string of posts. From top to 3/4 of the way down, it's a generalized discussion of standards and magnums. Mentioned amongst everything else are .308's, .300 WinMags, .300 WbyMags, 7mm RemMag's, .25-06s, .30-06s, 280's, 270's, .35 Rems, .375 H&Hs, .338 & .300 RUM's, 416's, .22s, .30-30s and maybe a few more I missed. Distances can be found mentioned in this string anywhere from 50 - 400 yds. All heck then breaks loose cause I'm doing my comparisions with something a little bigger in the .308 magnum class. We find out that the good ol '06 can't run with it and the conversation "suddenly" has ALWAYS been addressing the '06 and .300 WinMag only and specifically at 350 yds. Give me a break.<P>I hope you fair better. Also, be careful with your ideas with 220 gr. .308 bullets. While totally valid, they were never mentioned anywhere previously in this string (I checked), so you're gonna be way off of the subject matter with such comparisons. You've been forwarned. Good Luck. >>

JJ,<BR>Thanks for the clarification and for giving your opinions. I respect them.<P>If the 300 mag loaded with the same weight bullets as the 30-06 offers no real advantage at normal hunting ranges then I have another question.<P>Does the 458 offer any real advantage over the 45-70 as a dangerous game rifle, under 150 yards; since it is only a difference in velocity that we are considering?

Very good question! The biggest difference is bullet construction at the velocity we are using. I have seen 45/70 velocities from 1500 to 1800 fps from many people on this site. the 458 starts at about 1900 and goes up to 2100fps. <P>So if both used the same bullets say soft points on game suited for the 458 win mag (I assume) buffalo for example the bullets designed for 45/70 velocities would disintegrate on the solid target with the high 458 win mag velocity right? <P>If you use the big heavy constructed bullets for the 458 win mag penetration would be much better because the bullet integrity would be much better. <P>look at this another way. If the bullets used are identical which will penetrate further through flesh and bone? If we use a 500 grain bullet from the 458 win mag and are getting 2000fps or the same bullet from a 45/70 getting 1600fps(maybe) the additional velocity will certainly push the 458 win mag through more meat and bone. <P>This is not exactly the same possible comparison as the 308 calibers because all bullets made in .308 are generally speaking made for 30/06 velocities. Where the 45/70 and the 458 have the same diameter but bullets made specifically for their velocity range. <P>You can easily over drive a .308 bullet in a super magnum rifle but from a 458 win mag you can't over velocity a 458 win mag bullet.<P>I Have seen a few cape buffalo shot with 45/70 rifles. All were loaded with 458 class bullets though. They were shot using sharps rifles with 30" barrels and had velocities in the 458 win mag area. Had they been using standard 45/70 bullets from a lever gun, or the sharps rifle I doubt the results would have been pleasant. jj<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ,<BR>I guess I should have stated that the bullets in the 45-70 would have to be custom bullets that are of bonded cores (there are some)so that all the variables are eliminated and the comparison is equal except for velocity alone. Would there be a discernable difference in terminal results, based on your experience, between these cartridges if both are using quality projectiles? I personnally have always believed that velocity does make a difference up to a point and after that threshold is reached you must go to a bigger caliber to gain significant killing power. It is where we draw the line at that threshold that may be somewhat open to opinion based upon experience.<P>If, as you say, the greater velocity of the 458, over the the 45-70, would cause greater penetration thus better results, I cannot see how a 30 caliber magnum cannot provide the same advantages over the -06, if QUALITY projectiles are chosen.<P>P.S. In an earlier post I believe you identified what I myself believe is one of the magnum's "greatest" (not only) advantage; the ability to push heavier bullets at speeds that give good trajectories.<P>[This message has been edited by Thunderstick (edited April 03, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Thunderstick (edited April 03, 2001).]

Your right about the 30mag having greater velocity to penetrate however once the 30 caliber bullet passes through an animal broadside does the additional velocity and bullet weight do anything more? If both are hit identical with accurate well placed shots will the greater velocity help you? I say out to 350 yards no. However beyond 350 yards the magnums will still have enough remaining velocity to penetrate well, where the 30/06 will suffer. <P>Comparing the 458 is different because the 458 win mag is not the penetrateing powerhouse many people think it is. At least not 100% of the time. A 375HH with a solid will out penetrate the 458 win mag 100% of the time.( See Mike Lagrange ballistics in perspective)It is a dandy big game stopper but not in the same league as many of the other African calibers. Consider that it is on the lower end of the "stopper" scale and then consider that the 45/70 is by a margin less powerful and you get the idea where the 45/70 would stand.<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

It is my understanding that the faster a projectile passes through a body cavity the greater and more devastating the shock wave (providing bullet construction is appropriate). By that I mean that body tissue and fluid are displaced both more rapidly and driven farther from the center of the bullets path. This can be illustrated in the difference in damage that a 22-250 can cause as opposed to a 223.<BR>There has been many forensic studies that have quantified this. Ballistic gelatin can also illustrate the differences velocity can produce.<BR>I agree though that for some purposes you simply need a bigger bullet, but I do not see this in any way negating the fact that increased velocity combined with proper bullet construction can increase trauma.

I feel like Bambi walking onto a rifle range but, gulp, here goes... If one shoots a deer @ 300yds w/30-06 and that deer takes twelve steps and dies as opposed to the Warbird shot deer that takes only ten steps and drops from the additional hydrostatic shock and one doesn't mind the additional recoil, blast, weight, or ammo cost of the magnum, then I say go for it! However animals are individuals and each reacts differently to being shot. Tomorrow it may be the warbird deer that takes the additional two steps and drops. Did the '06 win? What happens if the deer appears thirty yards away instead of three hundred and you have a hot magnum? I don't know. Have any of you killed something that close with a hot mag? Does it cook it as well as bone it? Do .50BMG shooters smile and shake their heads? Remember Croc Dundee..."That's not a knife Mate, THIS is a knife!" <P>------------------<BR>Shoot straight and often!

The difference between a 30 magnum and a standard -06 may be looked at, at times, as the difference between a few steps, and it often may be. The exact same results may be observed when using a 338 on a deer as opposed to a 30-06 and yet no one would argue that in some cases and under some conditions there may be a real difference; so it can be in the margin of performance between a 30 magnum and an -06, the same that also exists between a 308 and an -06.<P>There are three main advantages to a 30 magnum over a 30-06, as I see it, flatter trajectory, the ability to drive heavier bullets to greater velocities, and the ability to extend the range at which a bullet will consistantly perform (down to 2000 fps for most bullets). These all are benefits that are the result of greater velocity, which as a result produce more trauma to the animal and a greater margin for human error in shooting, if the hunter can utilize its capabilities.<BR>These may not be important to everyone and are not in some situations, but the benefits are quantifiable and I cannot see how they can be denied. This argument could be duplicated between any number of standard rounds (30-30 vs. 30-40 Krag, 300 Savage vs.308, 308 vs. 30-06) and is not merely a magnum/nonmagnum debate at all, unless you are contending that the real issue lies in the belt, except for those that have none.<P>It is largely a matter of how signicant that difference is to us.<P>You could just as well argue the same difference between how many steps an animal will take if hit by a partition or a sierra, sometimes it may be indiscernable, but other times it may make a real difference.<P>Are you satisfied with the middle of the road or do you want a little more?<P>

I've heard all these arguments for the last 60 years, and some of it I agree with and some I don't...I've killed large animals with the 308, 7x57, 9.3x62, 375, 416's and 505's..<P>The one thing I'm sure of is that when push comes to shove and a Buffalo or Lion is intent on doing me awsome amounts of harm, I want the biggest damn gun I can shoot and in my case thats a 416 or 404 and I wish to hell it was a 577 N.E. and yes I can tell the difference in a 505 or 458 Lott and a 300 or 375. Apparently some cannot. I have survived that stage of gundom for I too once believed that caliber had little to do with killing big mean animals.<P>On an average day a 308 or 30-06 will kill Lions and Buffalo just fine and a 375 hits like the hammer of Thor, Its that less than average day when they don't even phase'em that bothers me...Last year I saw a cape Buffalo take 13 body hits with a 470 using softs and another take 9, again using softs...The year before I saw a Cape Buffalo take 7 375's and 4 458's..Again using softs, and that is another ball of wax, but lets pass on it for now. these incidents are not that uncommon..<P>These events have left a lasting impression on me, and I know that if the first shot is bad, then things are going to go South from that point on and I will always pack "enough gun", at least all I can handle and shoot from all field positions...I truly wish I could shoot the bigger bores like the 577 N.E. but I can't so I make do with the 40 cal. I love the 375 but I do not consider it a charge stopper..<P>Phil Shoemaker, Master Alaskan Guide, and gunwriter for several hunting magazines, whom I book for by the way, prescribed a 30-06 with 180 gr. Nolsers for Brown Bear for years and belived it a trueism..After a couple of recent incidents, he freely admits he was dead wrong for years, and now carries a 505 Gibbs and a 458 Lott..<P>that is usually the case, with folks and their light calibers, great and loud admissions of fantastic one shot kills, no need for a stopping rifle, then one day a little rubarb takes place and they sheepishly sneak into town and pick up a real big gun, I guilty of that myself!!!!I admit it and I ain't never looked back.<P>So, Ye who protesteth loudly, be patient, and old MBogo or Simba or even Yogi will change your mind or your body shape someday, which will it be?? Some, who mostly shoot the computer, will always rave gallantly of the perfect shot placement, perfect bullet construction, and the latest hi-velocity 50 cal. necked down to a phono graph needle and they will curse the big bores and elude to such things as shock and FPS and energy tables and of things that from time to time simply elude or fail to comply for the field hunter.....For thoes of you who actually go forth into the field, the cub scout motto still rings true "Be Prepared", shoot the biggest gun you can handle..Thats the best advise you will ever get.<P>------------------<BR>Ray Atkinson<BR>atkinsonhunting.com<BR>208-326-4120

As to a 45-70 and 458 mag comparison... lets not forget Buffalo Bore Ammo FACTORY has a 405 hardcast bullet(solid)that goes about 2,000 fps. Hand loads from a 45-70 can duplicate this. Cor-Bon as well as Garrett's ammo goes to this power level. Barely a comparison here. I used to hand load 350's and 405's to 1800, and quit going faster by choice. I could have gone more. ~~~Suluuq

O.K., I think I got it. <BR>1. To each his own, shoot what's comfortable.<BR>2. If you want to kill something over 400yds away, use a magnum...Or an airstrike.<BR>3. Use a magnum if you are not bothered by weight, recoil, blast or cost.<BR>4. 5,000 fps is a wet dream just around the corner.<BR>5.NEVER, EVER let a magnum shooter borrow your '06 because he's lost or misplaced his ammo and the general store in town doesn't carry his "size". <BR>6. More is better.<P>He who drives down middle of road stay out of ditch! <P>------------------<BR>Shoot straight and often!

Suluuq, greetings. Did you ever shoot any of those heavy Garretts? That cannot be fun from the prone position!<P>------------------<BR>Shoot straight and often!

Hi Thunderstick. I think your forgetting something. Bullet wounds are basically round, or circular, in nature. The damage radiates out from the center. The amount of damage is controled by the total energy, and it's rate of release. But the size of the wound channel soaks up this energy by the square of of the radius of this wound channel. In otherwords, it takes four times the energy to make the wound channel twice as large as it would have been. We don't have cartriages that produce levels of energy like 3,000; 9,000; and 81,000 lbs. We do have rounds like the .243 (2000 lbs.,) and the .375 (4000 lbs.). I think that everyone agrees that these two wound much differently. You can also consider the fact that different tissue types absorb this energy differently; muscle, bone, lung tissue, etc. Then, of course, we have different size animals. If a .243 is adequate for a 200 lb. deer, what is adequate for a 700 lb. elk ? Hope this helps. E