Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Black Bear Loads?

Total crap. The 240gr XTP has killed a lot of black bear. There's no magic bullet and the XTP certainly isn't special, but it works well. If you want to drill a 1/2" hole then use hardcast. But don't be surprised that hardcast isn't magic either. I was quite impressed by the fellow that culled hundreds of black bears with the 240gr XTP, experience which served as input for it's design.

Honestly some folks think that if Elmer Keith was involved somehow then the bullet must be Holy. If Elmer wiped his butt with a pinecone, they would too.

Elmer passed away in 1984. Things have moved forward in the last 27 years.

I believe the reference was to the a post made by JJ Hack, a professional bear guide, both in Washington and Alaska. He did not say he had personally killed "hundreds" of Black bears. He was in on the kill of hundreds, as a professional bear guide.

Go back to page one, this thread, and read the link posted by RJM. You'll see what JJ Hack wrote.

L.W.

See the following post by JJHACK for his experience with the 240XTP on black bear
JJHACK's experience

Back in the day the bullet of choice for the .44 mag for hunting was 240 grain soft point.

If one feels comfortable with a hollow point by all means use one but not me if I'm going bear hunting with a .44 mag handgun.

I would use a 240 grain soft point at about 1200 to 1300 feet per secound.

This is what I'd would use and have used. Should work just fine in light weight mountain revolver. But again, if anyone wants to use hollow points by all means do so, just remember there aren't to many hollow points for big game hunting in hunting calibers used in rifles especially for big and dangerous game. Something to think about.

http://www.luckygunner.com/44-mag-240-gr-sp-sellier-bellot-50

http://www.luckygunner.com/magtech-44-mag-ammo-for-sale-44mag240sjspmt-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=726640

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/45818-5.html

So..

What do you think about the 400g 475Cal - DeepCurl�

480 Ruger 400g SP At about 1250 ft/sec?



http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=143

I really don't much of an opinion as I've never seen the bullet or seen either caliber/gun nor fired one but the weight, being a flat point, at the speed you list should work. I would imagine it's probably duplicating a 45/70 out of a revolver but that's just a SWAG.

Do they work in the .44 mag ? Different/bigger caliber different set of parameters. Same as "So what do you think about 110, 125, 130 or 148 grain .357's. They have killed bear too, but they also are not in the .44 mag, thus not part of the original question.

No Elmer did not invent the large caliber all lead projectile and start killing with it. That predated him by centuries. Does not mean things shot with them die any less quickly now. Of which you would know if you had ever tried one on game.

Just because things worked before you were born does not mean they are out dated.

The Keith bullet is mentioned along with the LBT as examples of wide meplat, square driving band, heavy for caliber, all lead pistol bullets that kill all out of proportion to their muzzle energy and velocity. Nothing else was said. And I also did not say that the 240 jhp had not killed black bear, .22's have as well. Does not make either one the best choice.

Now pull your offended panties out of you ### and read what we each of us said and you will see we offered our opinion. You are welcome to yours, and I hope they never fail you, but I won't bet on it.

True there are no magic bullets, it comes down to shot placement & penetration, if you get both you will be in the winners circle. A 240 gr XTP will work great if it doesn't encounter heavy bone, slip one through the boiler room & its a dead bear, plant one on the shoulder & get out the flashlights.
The 240's, unlike the 300 gr XTP's will expand great, but they won't give great penetration. The 300's will give you both. Some hunters using the 240's have been disapointed when hitting shoulder bones on deer. Dr. Larry Rogers comes to mind.
Trust me, a 240-250 gr Keith slug will not give a 1/2" hole...unless it is barely moving. They do not have to expand to give a massive wound channel. I've taken several bears with cast bullets in revolvers, the wound channel is impressive, not as good as a jacketed bullet but impressive & also deep!
As always, it comes down to shooting what has worked in the past & arguing with anyone else who has different results.

Dick

Hey Dick,

I was using the 1/2 inch wound channel as a minimum. It never ceases to amaze me how well they take down game. Trying to help dla understand the concept. Like the phrase:

Your 9mm may expand...but my .45 sure ain't gonna shrink!!

Best to you.

Brian

Well you're talking to yourself fyshbum - I know what a cast bullet will do. It will drill a hole. A 1/2" hole, nothing more. It won't make a wound channel any bigger than 1/2" - there's no magic.

Now a 1/2" hole is pretty good - we're usually pretty happy if a .308" bullet expands 1.5 calibers and lots of critters are taken with 30 cal fodder.

The 240gr XTP will go 1.5 calibers which is .6" and the hole around it will be 3/4". And the bullet will stay together. It is a very good, very cheap, jacketed bullet.

dla,

You obviously have never used one yourself on game. The entrance wound is 1/2 inch sometimes larger, the wound channel is massive filled with pulverized vital tissue, the exit is usually 3/4 to 1 inch. Most animals hit with these bullets fall easily within sight, EVEN WHEN HEAVY BONE is hit. Heavy calber cast bullets just keep on going AND still exit most of the time. "Cheap JHP's" cannot complete this task. Most blow up on heavy bone. Move up in weight to the 300XTP, different story. The poster asked specifically about the 240 grain bullet. Being that many black bears can weigh more than inland grizzlies why would you take the chance?...unless you just don't give a s###. Then to each their own. Hope I am not the one to run into your wounded bear. Atleast, if I am I, will have the right bullet in my revolver to save my hide. If you run into one of your wounded bears you might want to follow what one fo the above posters recomended...save the last one for yourself.

Not trying to start an argument here but if you would like to see some wound channels from cast bullets on big game I can provide a lot of them. All are from sixguns & all are larger than 1/2".

Dick

I was thinking the same thing....

Even a solid rock hitting the water makes a splash; the bigger the face, the more displacement, then you also have length of the wound as displacement, but whatever....

You're wasting your time with dla. He's solidly in the shiny bullet camp and cannot be disuaded. Half-inch holes, huh? That's rich!

I am not convinced he has used a good LBT-style bullet or his take may be considerably different.

I think Hawk & I have explained this before, maybe on a different forum but somewhere.
Anyway, its very easy to prove unless you don't want proof! Water is much like flesh, when something hits it, it displaces. Take a flatnose cast slug & drop it in the water from 1" away, yes 1". It will make a little bitty wave, now check that hardcast bullet & measure it for expansion...just joking, we know they don't expand.
OK, now drop it from 1 foot away & see if you don't notice a little more shock wave in the water. Bear with me now, step back & throw that same hardcast bullet in the water, maybe, just maybe you will see quite a different reaction.
If you drive that same hardcast slug 1000-1400 fps into flesh you are going to see expansion (displacement)no, not in the bullet, in the flesh...or water. Even though that bullet did not expand it will create quite a shock wave (expansion) now, will it expand as much as a good jacketed bullet, nope but it will still disrupt a lot of tissue & penetrate very deeply. Shoot a jacketed bullet into the water & see what happens, I'll tell you, it will expand but penetration will be much, much less than the cast slug.
Now a softnose cast will do both, it will actually expand more than a jacketed slug & it will also penetrate much deeper than the jacketed slug. I'm guessing I didn't get anywhere with all this unless the reader has some experience with both.

Dick

No offense, but that concept of "shock wave" is pure doo-doo.

Let me make something clear: I know very well that I piss off the 1st Church of Holy Hardcast, but undestand why. I don't dislike WFN hardcast at all - I use a lot of it. But I absolutely get tired of the church members telling the world that jacketed bullets suck. Especially that stupid 240gr XTP which I and a billion other guys have experience with.

So yes, I am guilty of poking some of the church members But I'm not anti-hardcast.

Okay dla, really now, what game have you taken with hardcast bullets? Come on, spill the beans. Most of the guys I know who use hardcast bullets started out in the shiny bullet camp but have since left for greener pastures. Nothing wrong with jacketed expanding bullets -- when they work.

Go towards the light, dla! There is only darkness in jacketed bullet land!

Ok, I'm game.....

That is the velocity you say it needs for reliable expansion, at what speed does it not become reliable? Now at what range?

Don't give me Hornady's range, give me what you know...

I should note no one said the XTP was garbage, it just has limits and shooting bears up close in snares through the lungs isn't one of them....