Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 400 Whelen in progress

That should be enough! Heavy hitter I presume, I once had a 35 Whelen and really liked it. You could build fairly light and still have the power when neeeded.

I have a model 70 left handed 35 Whelen that I really love. I always wanted the bigger brother. I dropped it off this afternoon at the gunsmith's. Should have it ready to fit to the stock in a couple days. I am ready for this work week to be over so I can get to making some brass.

Mart

Mart,

What gunsmith are you using?

BE SURE your reamer is to the Griffin & Howe specs and the dies are too.
The real 400 Whelen as chambered by G&H was not just a necked up 06'.
Fred Zeglin's Book on Wildcat cartridges has a whole chapter by Mile Petrov on what the 400 Whelen should be. There are many, many incorrect reamers out there.
I publshed the book for Fred:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237839867



That's my 400 on the left. Works well.



Sad thing is that Barnes stopped making the 350 gr .411 X

goodiewrench,

I've seen that elk picture of yours before. That's awesome. My 400 is based on the same reamer that Michael researched. In fact it was Michael's research that prompted me to follow up on my long time desire to build a 400. I spent a wonderful afternoon with him discussing all things Whelen before I embarked on this adventure. Michael is probably the foremost 400 Whelen authority in my humble opinion.

bearstalker - PM sent with your answer.

Mart

Mart, very cool project, and 2150 fps. is the perfect vels. for the Woodleigh or Hornady soft point bullet's.
If You were to work up loads w/ both soft's and solid's there's not a thing You couldn't do w/ that rig.

Gunner

I don't know that I will ever get to go to Africa but I live in Alaska with ample opportunity to put a rifle like this to work. I've no doubt that it would be fair medicine for Cape Buffalo. John Taylor spoke very well of the 450/400 and the good Colonel was, I believe, duplicating that round in his development of the 400 Whelen. Elmer Keith used one for 11 years and spoke glowingly of it.

Townsend Whelen has long been a hero of mine in the ranks of the gun writers of old. I think sometimes he gets overlooked for his contribution to the gun writing craft. I love to sit down with his books and always seem to glean something from them no matter how often I peruse them.

I had actually hoped to build this rifle on a Sedgley Springfield that was converted to left handed. It was a 30-06 and had had some considerable use. I was not able to secure it as I was out bid in the auction. Shortly after that I stumbled on to this model 70 and didn't hesitate. While the lefty Sedgley would have been quite a coup for a portsider like me, I think I will be just as happy with the model 70.

One more shift tonight for this week and I am on to my week off. Though we have company for the week I hope to sneak away for a little time at the reloading press for some case forming and perhaps even an afternoon at the range to break in the new barrel and fire form a few cases.

Mart

Soundin good Mart, that combo would be perfect for moose or any bear in Alaska. I think You got it covered, and will most certainly be the only one in camp w/ that cool caliber, good luck this fall.

Gunner

I've run 400's at 2,250-2,300 and 300's to 2,500.

The 400 also runs 375gr cast very well right at 2,220 with great accuracy.

Let's not forget it will run .410-.411 pistol bullets too...

HawkI,

I have a bucket full of 270 grain gas checked 41 mag bullets from an LBT mold I have. I am looking forward to trying them. I contacted Accurate Molds about having a mold made. They catalog a good looking 320 grain and 400 grain, both with gas checks, and will cut one cavity of each in a mold.

gunner,

I do like the unusual. My 35 Whelen is a 1941 model 70 converted to left handed and rebored from an 06. I have a Remington left hand KS mountain rifle in 300 H&H (from the factory but not a stock chambering). Only a few of my shooting/hunting friends even know what I am talking about when I mention the 400 Whelen.

Mart

I agree on the Barnes 350; a 350 TSX would be about perfect!

After reading this thread, I felt inspired and reread Petrovs articles on the .400 Whelen. Definitely a cool cartridge. Sort of a....black powder big bore meets the 20th century and the new fangled bolt action mechanism.

Another thing I thought of was Elmers story about guiding his Dad to a cow elk when they were on one of their annual hunting trips. Elmer had his Dad convinced to shoot a blow down pine tree to confirm the zero and when he did the cow jumped up and ran a ways and fell over. His Dad had a bet with one of their hunting partners who would get the first elk and with Elmers help his Dad won the bet.

Still looking forward with anticipation to seeing Marts finished rifle.

This morning I ordered some bullets to try in the 400. I ordered 300 grain Hornady Spitzers, 300 grain Barnes TSX, and Woodleigh 400 grainers along with another 20 rounds of 400 Whelen basic brass. Ouch! Still have a mold to order, NECG barrel band swivel and front sight yet to get (the Redfield is not going to be big enough) and some Hawk bullets. I see more overtime in my future.

Mart

Mart, with todays powders I thnk you could exceed the 450-400 Nitro Express with the 400 Whelen or at least duplicate the velocities. Very interesting project.

The cast bullet is the NEI 411-350 GC #225A. Get it made with the driving band (what they call the DD style) as you set them up so the DD just catches the lands. Shoot it in my 400 Whelen, modern (.411) 40-82 and 400 H&H (all w/same twist). You can push it as fast as lead will take. Not too aerodynamic but very impressive on culling steers and will hold 1.5 moa or better.

Don't know if Swift still makes the 400 gr spitzer A-Frame but was the most accurate and aerodynamic 400. The 400 gr X (I have a hoard) is just a bit too long for best accuracy. It will hold 2" in the 400 H&H which is "minute of anything" I'd ever use that for !

Funny you mention the LH RFS, Back when I had the RFS collection, I had a LH one that had a 12" pull as it was made for some oil baron's daughter. Forgotten if Mike got it or not as we did a lot of RFS trading. Down to 4 now, the short action Hornet, two "one offs": 22-06 & 6.5x55 and the 400 W.

6.5 & 22-06



SA Hornet and 400 W



There is more "expert gunwriter" BS about the 400 Whelen than anything else cept maybe the 220 Swift.
If I were building a new .411, I'd go with Zeglin's .411 Hawk. It too is a slammer.

Here's neat pair of southpaw RFSs made for the same guy in 1935.
One a 257 Bob the other an 06'. Left stock, right bolt and 100% factory engraved. Even with the ancient Zeiss scopes they were both MOA rifles ! Part of my former collection.



Course if you really "wanna get er done" 1.4 ounces of lead @.610 with lots of 2F is also reasonably effective (GRIN).
Even if it dates to 1809 and is a "flinter".







[img]http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/4f6aa6c9.jpg[/img]

Goodiewrench,

Those are some beautiful rifles. I am going to be putting a barrel band swivel on my 400. How far forward of the receiver is yours and how far forward of the receiver does the forend end? I am planning on a new stock for the rifle and am looking for ideas and inspiration. Your 400 comes as close to what I am hoping to end up with as any rifle I have seen.

I am also curious about your 22-06. I have a Swift but have always wondered about the 22-06 and have never run into any one who had one. How does it perform in comparison to a Swift? Are you running light bullets like the Swift or is it geared more for heavier bullets? I don't know if I would ever build a 22-06 but it is an interesting wildcat from way back.

Mart

Mart, my band is about 2/5" in front of the fore end (where the original one was)(it was cracked) when it belonged to this guy. Needless to say it was pretty "gray" when I got it, but knowing Doug Turnbull since he was a toddler helped get it restored/improved for slight less than Obama is spending every day.



Gentry makes the best barrel band, You can get them already blued from Brownells and CONTRARY to what the Brownell catalog says they are tapered. There is a dot in the metal right above the swivel hole on one side. That goes toward the butt. I have installed several over the years using super locktite and a brass drift to knock em' on. Never had one come loose.

On the 22-06, when I bought mine it was shot out (HiVel powder was rough stuff). I had it rebarreled to match the original contour but with a 1 in 8 twist.

It will push an 80 gr Sierra MKBT bullet at 3600 fps. H869 is the only powder that works.
It will shoot 1MOA or better to 600 and is usually shoots better groups at 200 than 100 (bullet "going to sleep"?)
Easy to load but tricky to get to shoot well. Only winchester brass (thinner), expensive Redding bushing dies and so on. 75 gr Swifts and 62 gr TTSXs and 70gr TSXs also shoot very well. Have not tried Bergers yet but want to try the 22 cal 90 Grain Match Target VLD.

I also built a switch barrel Marlin Model X7C Long Action that was a 270 WCF using a Savage 22-250 barrel rechambered to 22-06. It would push a 50 gr at 4000+ (22" bbl 1 in 12 twist). It was VERY accurate shooting 3 in 1/2" at 100 and holding 3 in 2.5"@300 (farthest I ever shot it.)

BTW the Marlin is a great rifle for dirt cheap and the Savage nut barrel swap method would let you have anything that uses a 30-06 case (long action) or 308 (short action) as a basis. All you need is a barrel vise, the wrench and a headspace gauge. The swap takes about 20 minutes !

the rifle:

Great choice Mart,

I've got a question about the COW method for forming the 400 from the 35 Whelen.

Being that the Whelen measures .441" at the shoulder and the 400 Whelen measures .458" at the shoulder. Do they both share the same datum line at some place between the neck and shoulder junction.?

IME, the neck junctures are the same, see njs1230's photos.

I use a neck up in deference to a fireform with 35 cases; using basic brass requires only a trip through an FL die properly adjusted, as it is already the proper dimension full length. Many dies will not allow a shoulder to be set back too far by design.

Some chambers will require that the basic brass (Qual-cart) to be turned.

Judging by the drawings I have the 35 Whelen is 2.032 to the front of the shoulder and the 400 is 2.033. With only 1 thousandth of an inch difference they have essentially the same length to the front of the shoulder.

I have some 35 Whelen from military and some 30-06 military I will use for the COW method just to see if there is a difference in how each will form. I plan to form half my brass with the COW method and half with an expander die. I will report on each as soon as I get the rifle back and can get to the range.

I also have 40 rounds of 400 Whelen basic brass to form. The dies have been ordered so as soon as they get here I will get some cases formed and ready to shoot.

Mart