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I have no dog in this fight.
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<br>However,I don't recall a flood of "Short Range Guys" saying they can kill with 100% certainty at 1500yds. Actually,never heard a word muttered in that regard,or anything that could be remotely perceived in conjunction with that notion.
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<br>I'd simply like to witness results by anyone,at 1500yds,on a lifesized anatomically correct target regarding a first poke or a string of succesive shots in the vitals. That intrigues me. I'm neither rooting for,nor against,but am simply curious.
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<br>That was my take,on the crux of the debacle. I don't find any of that ridiculous,though much of it is very interesting....................

Darryl:
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<br>As usual, you LR boys seem to have major difficulty in reading and/or comprehending. As has been pointed out, Okanagan said nothing about off hand and he said, 8 or 10 inch plates. I chose 8 inchers. If you want to make it 10 or deer or elk size vitals, fine with me.
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<br>You are the one who mouthed off and said you would take the bet, and I quote you, " With my spotter and a spotter round fired first (as we always do while hunting) in front or behind the animal, I would take that bet. I would also only take the shot with the absence of wind gusts just like when we are hunting." So let's do it. Time limit of 10 minutes to shoot or lose after first shot fired. I can shoot first everytime or we can alternate. Now if you let your alligator mouth override your hummingbird you know what, that is fine and I understand.
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<br>Now, if you want to change it and make it a bit more challenging, why don't we make it an 8 inch plate at 100 yards and I will shoot offhand, you can have an 8 inch plate at 2000 and shoot any way you want. Same stakes. 3 minutes to get off your shot. I like to collect money in a hurry.
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Darryl, what is ridiculous about the bet proposed by If It Flies it Dies? You both shoot at the same size target, you at your preferred distance, he at his. That is parrallel to real hunting, he within his chosen limits, you within yours, which is what this is about. That's the real playing field, whether it is level or not. Your proposal to pit an off the shelf hunting rifle against a super sniper beast at 1500 yards stacks the deck as much as racing a VW bug against a Farrari. Yes, your LR rifle is more accurate at LR. No one has ever disputed that. I guess I'd just like a trace of acknowledgement that it is much harder to hit at long range than it is at short range, for any marksman, with any portable rifle. Your response indicates that you agree, since your counter proposals always give a huge advantage to the LR shooter.
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<br>Again, this proposed contest eliminates all the variables except range. Even you will hit more consistently at 100 yards than you will at 1500. That is the issue. I've no doubt that you are a superb long range shooter.
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<br>I re-read Big Stick's target proposal, a life size cut-out with vitals outlined, and I really like it. His scoring suggestion is even better, giving credit only for hits within the vitals, and penalizing hits outside that since they represent a wounded animal. Again, that's parrallel to real hunting.
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<br>Darryl, I'm not on any crusade to stop you from shooting a mile or two at a deer if you want. Your willingness to teach and share LR info with others is laudable. You have advanced to the world class leading edge of LR game shooting in your quest to eliminate all the "miss factors" ballistic and natural. But no one can control all of those factors all the time, and the longer the range the less control we have over animal movement, wind gusts, etc. The seeming refusal to face that kind of reality is what I think is behind my posts on this topic. May you never miss.

hmmm..
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<br>Ok I can see where this is headed....
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<br>Here are a few questions to ask.. lets make this sporting..
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<br>The average off the shelf hunting rifle is made to shoot hmmm 200 yards off hand .. I am asking .. right or wrong???
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<br>the guns LRH shoot are made to shoot 1000 yards right...
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<br>So to even the odds and make it fair....
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<br>Shouldn't it be 200 yards and 8" off hand and 1000 yards 8" with the LRH gun...
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<br>I think "most" educated and studied hunters can hit 8" all day long from 100 yards.. hell on a good day most of us can use a pellet gun and hit 8" at 100......
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<br>just somthing to think about...

<br>A pellet gun at 100yds??????
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<br>Let me get my hip waders on...it's getting deep.

David Tubb won the Silhouette Highpower National Championships,(in the offhand position,in case that event is unfamiliar to anyone)with an out of the box Rem700. The lad could likely hold his own at the 1000yd line too(grin).
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<br>So it is as much the Indian,as it is the arrow.
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<br>Rather than fuzzy math and the "my Dad is tougher than your Dad" mindset. I think it is more appropriate to keep at the matter at hand. Killing critters efficiently/effectively,regardless of range.
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<br>I would still very much enjoy a 1500yd exhibition. The talk of 2000yd kills intrigues me even more. Just what bearing that may have on a pellet rifle(at any range)is beyond me. If someone says they can reliably make kill shots,100% on Game (in the vitals)at 1500yds and further,I fail to see a connection to punching paper plates by anyone else at any other distance. As that is of zero bearing on anything,the former party stated.
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<br>They can either do it 100% of the time(every shot attempt)or not,at the distance they mentioned. Not much middle ground there,in my estimation.
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<br>I very much wish I had those skills..................
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IF
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<br>This is for If and nobody else.
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<br>Now we are changing the range from 1500 to 2000 yards?
<br>Look who's aligator mouth is running overtime on that statement. Your the one who also started a money shoot of $1000.00 per shot, were you not?
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<br>I simply tried to make this shoot off as equal as I could as per all around shooting especially when $1000.00 per shot is on the line.
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<br>To give you a crutch, how about if we put a 24" kill zone target at 100 yards and also at 1500 yards.
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<br>Knowing how easy it is to shoot 100 yards, I would expect you to shoot the same yardage as I do. I'll shoot 100 yards and 1500 Yards and YOU do the same. Hows that aligator mouth?
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<br>You have continued to downplay the LR hunters on this forum by trying to make a mockery out of shooting Longrange. Now you change things to suit you from 1500 to 2000 yards. You and I both know it's easier to hit an 8" plate at 100 yards then it is at 1500 yards. That don't take a rocket scientist to figure out.
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<br>I won't shoot against a 50 yard or 100 yard shooter and me at 1500 yards unless we BOTH are shooting at that range. If someone wants to shoot against me at 100, 300 , 1000 or 1500 or 2000 yards, now I will be most accomodating.
<br>Point is, "they" are going to do it to and this will be an equal match to see who can do what at all ranges.
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<br>It's true, at 100 yards an 8" plate should be hit more times then the 1500 yard same size 8" target. I never said it couldn't.
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<br>I did say FOR US a 24" kill zone target at 1500 yards is as easy to hit as your 8" or 10" plate is at 100 yards. Hell some hunters, I should say many hunters, couldn't hit an 8" target off hand at 100 yards while there are some who are excellent at 1000 yards off hand.
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<br>It's a pity you have never tried LR hunting or understand the concept. You seem to thrive on opposition towards it. That too is a pity but, to each his own.
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<br>So, at some point in your life if you feel "froggie" and want to shoot 100 yards AND 1500 yards against me, be my guest in Pennsylvania or Colorado when I go there elk hunting. Fair enough? Thats the fair way to approach this money contest you brought up.
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<br>Darryl
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Darryl (HUMMINGBIRD):
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<br>I remind you again, mighty hunter, that you are the one who said he would take the bet. All I did was make it into a real bet and you are attempting to obfuscate the fact that you are backpeddling faster than a unicyclist.
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<br>If the 2000 yards is all that is stopping you, I'll shoot it at 100, you shoot it at 1500 and let's get it on.
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<br>I have never made a mockery of LR hunting, you seem to do that quite well by yourself. I have never met anyone who's ethics changed at the will of the state Game and Fish Dept.
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<br>The bottom line is you said you would and could and now you won't and can't. Makes me wonder about some of your other numerous claims.
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IF (Alligator)
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<br>Rest assured, I would NEVER back peddle from "you" or anyone and that, you can take to the bank.
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<br>Here's a challenge for you.
<br>Anytime "you" want to shoot against me head to head and yardage to yardage, please let me know.
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<br>You are the one who brought up the $1000.00 per shot and your wise crack about bring lots of money. Don't try to wiggle out of something and blame it on me.
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<br>My credibility is such that I have witnesses and pictures to many of the long shots that were made and knowing your attitude on this forum, I expected you to make your sarcastic remarks. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard your mouth.
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<br>I really don't care what you think about any comments that were made by me. I don't tell lies about anything and anyone who knows me will attest to that.
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<br>So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?
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<br>Your the one who said $1000.00 per shot and I'm the one who said even up at all yardages , between you and I.
<br> You shoot my game and I'll shoot yours. I'll try yours but, I'll bet , you won't try mine at 1500 yards.
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<br>100 yards AND 1500 yards --Both of us shooting the two yardages and you have a bet. Take it or leave it.
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<br>Later (I'm sure)
<br>Darryl
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Darryl...Go to your happy place...Little pink Foo Foo Bunny...hehehehehehe...If It Flies.Darryl is a Very respected member in the Long Range Hunting and Bench Rest community.It is Very clear to me you don't know what your going up against.How's this....???Darryl will shoot ten shot's at 100 yard's.We'll measure the group.You do the same....Then you each shoot ten shot's at 1500 yard's.Hell I'll even let you use MY GUN....$5000.00 for group size average.Sound fair?I don't think it can get any more fair....

Dear Humming:
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<br>Where do you keep that unicycle. Did you say you would take the bet or not?
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<br>Finally, I may not beat you, but I am more than willing to stand up and shoot offhand with you, 500yards or meters, 8 inch steel plate, silhouette rules, no slings, shooting coats or anything else. And, no spotters. $1000 a shot. Alternating shots, 3 minutes to shoot maximum or the shot is considered a miss. When do you want to do it? and, to be sure that we are really committed, let's escrow $10,000 to be sure that we are really serious. After either person loses the $10,000 he can press(double the bet for cash payments per shot), keep shooting for the same stakes, or quit when he wants to, which at that point becomes the losers option at any time. Let me know when.

Dear Darryl (Hummingbird):
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<br>Damn, it got quiet in here all of a sudden.
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<br>You wrote: "So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>I believe that my post above met all of you conditions, so, are you a hummingbird or what? What can be fairer than 2 guys standing side by side shooting at the same target. Let's get it on.. Boyd, since you jumped in here, let's do a few side bets.
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<br>And, let me be the first to say, that there are many people who can outshoot me, but I am not sure that Hummingbird is one of them, using real shooting techniques, funny how few benchrests I find out in the woods. To repeat, he said, "it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>I guess I am man enough, what are you?
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If---I'm back and You can Hummingbird "this"
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<br>I see your changing the rules AGAIN. Last email it was 2000 yards for me now it's 500 for both of us---Make up your damn mind. You continue to let your mouth overload your rear end.
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<br>I believe you can't read or understand anything and just continue to try to stir the pot.
<br>I told you in the last email or two, 100 Yards and 1500 yards shot for shot, Take it or leave it. Can you understand That?
<br>I'll shoot your range and you shoot mine as mentioned . 100 yards and 1500 yards.
<br>Are you man enough or just mouthy again or do you want to change something in your next email like you have in the last two??
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<br>Don't forget who started this Alligator and hummingbird stuff either. I won't.
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<br>So since it seems you not "Man enough" to shoot 100 Yards "and" 1500 yards" shot for shot with me, I don't believe you or I have anything else to say, do we?
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<br>If you change your mind, I'll be in Colorado the third elk season and would be glad to meet "you".
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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<br>PS
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<br>It only got quite for a bit as I ran down to my daughters house for an hour or so. Couldn't wait to get back to you IF.
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<br>Let me add one more thing, I'm a benchrest shooter and a bipod shooter especially at the ranges I shoot and nothing was ever said to dispute that. I would shoot your style at 100 yards and you can shoot my style at 1500 Yards understand that?
<br>How I wish you were in Pennsylvania.
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HUMMINGBIRD:
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<br>And the caps are intended. That is a shout. Let me spell it out. Gimme an H, gimme a U, gimme an M, gimme another M, gimme an I, gimme an N, gimme a G, gimme a B, gimme an I, gimme an R, gimme a D. What does that spell?????? DARRYL
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<br>If anybody has any doubt, just read the above posts.
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<br>Finally, if the 'wish you were in Pennsylvania:" is some kind of veiled threat, well, try to be a man and spit it out, it ain't that far.
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<br>PS: I keep changing the rules, as you say, because you are a moving target, like a snake.
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If---- spit "This" out.
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<br>Your a real joke
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<br>If you think I'm not a man, you certainly have your head in your rear end.
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<br>I wish you were in PA. not as a threat but, so I could show you some 3000 yard shooting from my own property.. Boyd has been there too.
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<br>So out of all this, your new name is "This" and mine is Hummingbird.
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<br>Anyway take care but, your still a joke.
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<br>Like my attorney always said, never get in a pissing contest with a skunk. I really screwed up & didn't listen to him this time.
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<br>Darryl
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"Just curious: how about this for a test? If we had one excellent marksman, a long range man, shoot the same rifle at two targets, one at say 1500 yards, the other at 100 yards. The targets could be the typical 8 or 10 inch plate to represent vitals, or we could make it more realistic and mark out a deer vital area on a life sized target and cover it with real deer hair. The shooter could have a spotter by his side with bigeyes and any other equipment. I would be willing to bet even money shot for shot, that he will hit the closer target and miss the farther one, if I could find a taker to bet he will hit the 1500 target and miss the 100 yard one. The more shots fired the better. The only catch is that the shooter has to be neutral and do his best to hit each shot. "
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<br>This is the original post by Okanagan. I think both IIFID and Darryl should both shut up and put up. What's the use of this pissing contest anyways?
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"So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>Here I am quoting Darryl, and IIFID has taken you up on your offer. Same range for both of you I do recall. It isn't the 1500 yards you are comfortable with, but I don't really think he would be that comfortable shooting at 500 yards offhand either.
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Me, I ain't in this, don't throw me in the crossfire. You two both seem to be getting on each other's nerves, I'm just trying to be rational here. I just would like for both of you to stop flaming each other, and if you wish to have a shooting match, go ahead and have it.

Big
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<br>That's MY point.
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<br>I'm not an off hand shooter and i explained my position on that.
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<br>I would shoot with If, at 100 yards and he can shoot with me at 1500 yards. Not a problem, I didn't think.
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<br>I wouldn't be comfortable with his style and he wouldn't be with mine. I think that's about as even as you can get. I don't think very many hunters carry and hold a 67 Lb rifle.
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<br>I do believe we beat this to death though.
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<br>He started the crap with the Alligator mouth and Humingbird comments. I didn't.
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<br>Later
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HUMMINGBIRD:
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<br>I may be your joke, but, unlike you, I put my money where my mouth is. And we know where yours is and it is firmly glued to your anal orifice, near your wallet.
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<br>Geesh, I have to keep quoting your words, how distasteful, but here they are again, ""So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>To repeat, I am man enough, but you aren't.
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<br>Now, there is no question that you are a more accomplished BR shooter and sniper of animals at extended ranges than I am, I freely admit that, but somehow I am not sure that being a good shot is all about bench technique. I offered a contest which met all of your requirements and you weaseled out, saying, "oh, shoot, I didn't mean that, we have to shoot off the bench at my distances" What a female orifice, and that means you. You pontificate to all that will listen about how great you and your Long Range practices are, how you will take a bet, and when you are called on it, run like a rabbit.
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<br>Like I said in one of my earlier posts, I don't have to know everything about a skunk to know that one stinks, and you, sir, stink.
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<br>And you take care too, but you still stink.
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