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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I’ve personally seen a badly misplaced gut shot on an elk at 600 yards with a .370 Sako Mag that took the animal down, and while it didn’t dye immediately, it never got up. With a 30-06 there would have been a wounded animal heading for cover. I know it’s a controversial topic, but massive injury anywhere in the body can cause the onset of shock that kills even with all the vital organs intact. It’s similar to how blunt trauma kills.
Im still wanting to hear more on this one...what kind of shock would that be? Hemmoragic, neuro, what? If it was a hemo based shock a vital organ or artery had to be damaged at some point to cause the blood loss? Short of damage to the brain itself all death is brought about by a lack of perfusion to the vitals, whether it is caused by damage to the circulatory, respiratory system or a loss of fluids. I feel proper bullet construcion and placement is far more important that a couple thousands of bullet diameter or a belt on the case. I have seen people get into trouble because they could not control what they thought was the best choice of weapon but I have yet to see anyone saved because their poor shooting was offset but a larger caliber, more speed etc. This is a great post.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Gee, I've seen a gemsbok bull gut-shot at 200 yards with a .375 H&H by a companion of mine. The .375 is a more powderful rounds than the .370, by any measure, yet the bull went two miles before it was tracked down and finished.
What I wonder is whether the elk or the gemsbok is truly scientific experiment?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What I wonder is whether the elk or the gemsbok is truly scientific experiment?
Of course not........it's a "story"......field observations don't count... Not conducted under lab (controlled) conditions,of course.....
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Tracker
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Ahh that's why those two geniuses discount all the experienced hunters and continue to tell them/we/us/you that you're doing it wrong
"For some unfortunates, poisoned by city sidewalks ... the horn of the hunter never winds at all" Robert Ruark, The Horn of the Hunter
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Campfire Kahuna
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As my old friend Melvin Forbes says, "Examples of one are never valid."
That seems to be what GS seems to have so far....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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What strikes me is the number of hunters who seem to lack a basic understanding mammalian anatomy. The only animals that I have ever seen drop on the spot with a gut shot were actually hit in the spine or the top of the pelvis. I take any ones account of an animal dropping instantly from a gut shot with a grain of salt because it just does not add up, regardless of caliber.
Similarly, I hear stories of animals that were shot "perfectly", but the animal got up and ran off. Often resulting in the hunter discounting the cartridge or bullet used. In my observations the majority of these failures are actually poorly placed shots, often to the very top or very bottom of the spine, resulting in a stunned animal, but not a severed spinal cord.
Last edited by chicoredneck; 08/04/11.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think that if rifle hunters approached killing BG animals a bit more like bowhunters do,they might find the whole process pretty simple....bow hunters "know" that hitting the right spot is crucial to success.... But for some reason, rifle hunters make the whole process complex,riddled with theory,and magic,and get bogged down in the process. Thinking on this issue of being "undergunned",I remind myself..."People kill these things with sticks and strings..." and I'm supposed to worry with a 270?
Last edited by BobinNH; 08/04/11.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yeah...
I've known several bowhunters who are perfectly happy with a .220 Swift or .243 Winchester for the rifle hunting they do.
As a matter of fact, one of the early points in my trend toward smaller cartridges and calibers was the period of intense bowhunting I did in the late 1980's. When you slip a broadhead through both lungs of a bull elk and he goes less than 100 yards before literally tumbling over, you begin to understand that kinetic energy isn't everything!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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JB: In a past life, I bowhunted,too....it is astonishing what a sharp broadhead will do....
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I begain to question FE with I started handgun hunting in the 70's and found that they could flatten game as good as any rifle without all of the "kinetic energy" of a rifle
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Amazing, isn't it?
Shoot 'em where they live with anything that cuts off the blood supply, and they die pretty quickly.
Of course, they don't teach that in college courses in engineering. Luckily I majored in biology!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Amazing, isn't it?
Shoot 'em where they live with anything that cuts off the blood supply, and they die pretty quickly.
Of course, they don't teach that in college courses in engineering. Luckily I majored in biology! INDEED...
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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A myth is an assertion which has either been disproven by careful experiment or for which there is no historical or scientific evidence in cases where it is reasonably expected. Belief in remote effects of penetrating projectiles may have originated with hunters and soldiers, but their reality is now well established in a broad body of scientific literature... -- Neurosurgery, February 2011 - Volume 68 - Issue 2 - pp E596-E597 The VLD design is different, penetration before expansion, and as it expands [the bullet] fragments to enhance the wound cavity for massive tissue damage. The VLD will penetrate several inches of hide, muscle, and bone before expanding and fragmenting, causing tremendous hydraulic shock and fragments that wreck the vitals and drops the animal in its tracks. Berger Bullets video Possibly even more significant is that a study conducted in North Carolina involving shooting large goats in the lungs with high velocity high energy frangible projectiles indicates that the large temporary cavity created by such a projectile can cause a severe blood pressure spike to the animal's brain causing instant incapacitation. In effect it is an artificially induced massive stroke. The test animals had special blood pressure monitoring probes surgically inserted into one of the animal's major neck arteries to the brain well prior to the shooting. When the projectile had a large and violent enough temporary cavity to cause a severe blood pressure spike, the animal was instantly incapacitated. The Hornady TAP rounds have energies and temporary cavity sizes well beyond those shown to cause instant incapacitation in the tests. -- Hornady Tactical Application Police Ammunition Test Report and Application Guide, Hornady Manufacturing, Inc. Grand Island, Nebraska (2008) p. 56 If you read the entire article you�ll find that both McPherson and Fackler has been debunked by modern science. It looks like Roy Weatherby was right. If nothing else read Energy transfer required for remote neural effects. Then remember some of our local experts cite Fackler to claim no energy is transferred by the bullet to the target.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Modern science supports MacPherson and Fackler,not the junk science that you post about
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Actually, in my experience MacLorry has a real point. The interior damage from Berger bullets does kill big game quicker.
I was one of the gun writers who shot a lot of animals with VLD's in a major test in New Zealand. We also autopsied a bunch of animals from young feral goats to mature red stags, and that is indeed how VLD's work: They go in a couple of inches or so and then pretty much fragment, destroying far more vital tissue than any other expanding bullet I've ever seen.
This also correlated to the average distance the animals went before falling from heart/lung shots. This was the shortest distance I've found in many years of pacing the distance from the initial hit to the dead animal.
However, the half-dozen rifles used in New Zealand ranged from the .257 Roberts with 115-grain VLD's to the .300 Winchester Magnum with 185-grain VLD's. They all killed similarly, despite the difference in bullet weight, diameter, and kinetic energy. At any range out to 350 it was hard to tell the difference: If the bullets hit the right place the animal died quickly. There weren't enough animals shot beyond 350 (and some were shot out to 550) to come to any conclusion.
So the OGW formula still wasn't confirmed.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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So you think this study is junk science do you? About the Authors: Amy Courtney currently serves on the faculty of the United States Military Academy at West Point. She earned a MS in Biomedical Engineering from Harvard University and a PhD in Medical Engineering and Medical Physics from a joint Harvard/MIT program. She has taught Anatomy and Physiology as well as Physics. She has served as a research scientist at the Cleveland Clinic and Western Carolina University, as well as on the Biomedical Engineering faculty of The Ohio State University. Michael Courtney earned a PhD in experimental Physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He has served as the Director of the Forensic Science Program at Western Carolina University and also been a Physics Professor, teaching Physics, Statistics, and Forensic Science. Michael and his wife, Amy, founded the Ballistics Testing Group in 2001 to study incapacitation ballistics and the reconstruction of shooting events. Check out the section titled "II. Physics of the ballistic pressure wave" and you'll see that Fackler was completely wrong about Newton's laws and energy transfer.
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We need more pictures!!! A skwirl shot with a 450gr. hard cast bullet out of a .45-70 case. A twiddler shot with a 165gr. MRX out of a .30-06 case. A yummy cow shot with a 53gr. TSX out of a .223PV case. All three of these have something in common: bullet placement.....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A fragile bullet into the chest cavity is indeed deadly, but it is not because of "kinetic energy transfer". Secoundary fragments makes a wider wound channel
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Oh, and they were all killed with one shot, though it might be hard to infer.....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hydraulic pressure, not "hydraulic shock" and energy transfer in an inelastic colision is BS. No consevation of energy in an inelastic collision
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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