Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 45-70 or 450 Marlin and Why?

I have to chuckle, another levergun forum gone to the bolt heads. Well, here is a moments reprieve, returning briefly to the topic at hand-leverguns.
Ultimately, no 45-70 fanatic will ever admit that the 450 is an improvement over "their" cartridge. VG point about the rim difference, with the nod going to the 450 again.
Similar is the constant rehashing on many forums of the evils of porting. For the record, the ports on the guide gun do a great job keeping the gun pointed in the right direction for fast follow ups, something that will not be acknowledged, either.
The guide gun is really nothing more than a further evolution of the short rifle. In levergun terms, the short rifle is NOT a carbine, it is in fact a full size rifle with a short barrel.
Finally, the 450 gives great credit to the 45-70. It would not exist without its parent round, yet it most certainly is an improvement.
And now, back to bolts...

Sorry in advance - this might be a little long.....

First, in the interest of full disclosure I own, shoot, hunt and reload for both. In 45-70 I have a #1, several Marlin 1895Gs and a GS - they are in various combinations of ported, non-ported, micro-grove and Ballard rifling. Three Siamese Mausers and one of the Remington double riffles. In 450M I have a ported and a non-ported 1895M, both ballard rifling. The ported one I converted to pistol grip, a Custom built pre-64 Win 70 and a Custom Ruger M77. I've hunted the US and African PG with nearly all of them.

Second, separate the cartridges from the rifle using it. While it is true both the 45-70 and 450M can be hand loaded to the same/similar pressures and velocities, how many guys if handed a 50K psi hand load for a bolt action would be willing to put it in a "Trapdoor" and pull the trigger? These and more are reasons reloading manuals as well as SAMMI have three different sets of standards/limits and loading data for the 45-70: Trapdoor - under 28K PSI, Modern Lever - under 36K PSI, Modern Rifle - under 50K PSI and 450 in a 1895 Marlin under 43.5K PSI and unlisted max in bolt actions or #1s. While some 45-70 brass manufactures might make the 45-70 cases a bit thicker, the standard for all 450M brass is thicker than the standard for the 45-70 brass.

Third, many people forget the strength of the ACTION is the limiting factor in the 45-70. From least to highest - Trapdoors/low-walls early levers, modern levers - Marlin, and modern rifles - #1's/high-walls, Browning levers and bolts. An awful lot of people think that all Marlin 1895 actions are the same - they are NOT. While many of the parts will interchange there is a difference in the metallurgy and receiver/barrel threads between the regular 1895 and the 1895M. The regular 1895's use a "U" shaped thread and the 1895M uses a "V" shaped thread. This allows the 1895M to have more threads and also leave the barrel and receiver a bit thicker.

The historical reason Hornady and Marlin teamed up to develop the 450 Marlin was to: a) take advantage of the capability of modern smokeless powders and push them to max safe levels b) make sure the "modern" high pressure cartridge couldn't be "accidentally" put in an old Trapdoor or low wall and hurt someone. Additionally, it was a way to allow those shooters who don't/didn't reload to get all the advantages of the "modern" loads. Remember, this was before anyone like Garrett, Corebon or Buffalo Bore was offering anything and all the normal manufactures were limiting factory loads to the lowest common denominator - Trapdoor - to limit liability.

Also historically, rimmed/flanged cartridges don't feed as well in bolt action as they do in levers, singles and break actions - that is why nearly all big bore double rifles use rimmed/flanged cases and all big bore bolt actions don't. Hornady may have also hoped that the "rimless" case would spur rifle manufactures to start cambering more bolt actions in 450M. A few did - Ruger in the M77, Styer in their Pro Hunter line and Browning in their box magazine fed BLR's.

All that said and back to the OP's original question...When it comes to lever action Marlins - I like the 450 over the 45-70 because the rimless 450M feeds through the loading gate better/easier and the actions feel like they cycle smoother. In fact, I am taking the 1895M with me in a few weeks to South Africa while I take a PH training/certification course. I am taking the lever 450 over my bolts or the double for a couple of reasons: a) Nothing except a full or semi auto cycles faster than a lever gun. There is a "timed" shooting practical you have to pass - three shots in 15 seconds, one each at 30, 20 and 10 meters at a 4 centimeter target - easy with the lever, pushing it with a bolt and damned hard with a double. b) I am comfortable with it as it has be used for PG on every trip to Namibia. I can load it SAFELY and within Marlin max pressure limits to just under 458 Win Mag levels with 350gr Hornady JFP and I have a combination that puts me into the legal muzzle energy for DG. c) Willing to bet nobody has done the PH cert course with a lever gun before.

For the "normal" guy who loves lever guns and doesn't reload, I would tip in favor of the 45-70 simply for the wide array and availability of commercial ammo. For those that love Marlin levers and reload I would tip back to the 450M simply because the higher pressure limits of the 1895M actions allow the reloader to really push bullets beyond the design limits of the standard 1895 action.

Ported vs Non Ported, I like the ported. Personally, I can't tell the difference in sound level when shooting them. Standing/sitting next to them HUGE difference. I think barrel length is a bigger factor. My longer barreled bolts don't make my ears ring nearly as bad without ear plugs. The Marlin ports do make a big difference in muzzle jump/rise. Off the bench with sandbags or off shooting sticks with heavy and full house loads the ported Marlins just about lay/stay on the bag/sticks and don't need to be held at the fore stock while the non-ported nearly jump off the bags/rest. Can't say I can feel much recoil reduction/difference and that is comparing identical rifles except porting with same loads same day/trip to the range one after the other.


For those that want to enter the 458 Win Mag territory in bolt actions, I would tip to the 450M. The reason being primarily the smoother feeding of the rimless case. It took a lot more "work" to get the Siamese Mausers to feed 100% reliably with Spitzers and wide nose flat points and they just don't cycle as smoothly. If it was just one I could limit it to just that one but it is the same with all three.

The above is not meant to take anything away from the 45-70 as I love them too. My wife shoots 45-70 in "her" Marlin and "her" Mauser - 300 gr Nosler Partitions (till I run out) at 2000fps and has taken several head of PG out to 130yds with one shot/one kill, and I have taken multiple head of PG with the 45-70 before I got my first 1895M. In the bolts, both calibers, I am running 350gr Horady JFP, 350 Barnes TSX and a 330gr banded solid at 2400 FPS (chrono'd) with zero over pressure signs. The 330 solid passed end to end through a medium bodied zebra last year and the TSX's will just about pass end to end through a gemsbok, and the 350gr JFPs will just about knock a gemsbok off their feet at impact inside 75yds. Also, use Cast Performance 405gr Wide Flat Points in the Marlins loaded to 1850 fps and they will pass through gemsbok on broad side shots and nearly end to end.

Just the opinions of one guy.

Nor would I, the present offerings do the job quite well, and I was speaking of mainly what would I use in a bolt gun. I have always wanted a .45-70 bolt rifle, but read of some of the difficulties you could encounter building one, so didn't entertain it too much. And of the other two you mention (.458X2 and the .450 Alaskan), I just feel a stronger pull to the Alaskan. Neat looking case in a beautiful rifle.

But, I have played with wildcats enough that I like easily obtained cases and straightforward loading, hence the thought of a .450 Marlin bolt gun.

But, I'll probably never do it. I have a Guide gun, and it has enough power for what I want to do. I would probably go straight to an African caliber if I needed more ooommphhh.

Lord knows I don't want to get kicked any harder, it just ain't the fun it used to be. I've used a .308 for years and lately have been thinking about a .243....