Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 45-70 or 450 Marlin and Why?

Seems like many of the .450's I have seen are ported and not nearly as many 45-70's

For North American game, even big bears would you really be able to tell the difference?

The bear wouldn't, for sure.

I doubt the shooter would, either.

I'll admit, it helps to be a reloader to fully enjoy the 45-70. I think the .450 was set up for the non-reloader so hot ammo wouldn't end up in a Trapdoor, etc. That, to me, seems more of a legal liability issue than a ballistics issue. I can make my 45-70's walk side by side the .450 and not be embarrassed.

IMHO,

DF

Sorry in advance - this might be a little long.....

First, in the interest of full disclosure I own, shoot, hunt and reload for both. In 45-70 I have a #1, several Marlin 1895Gs and a GS - they are in various combinations of ported, non-ported, micro-grove and Ballard rifling. Three Siamese Mausers and one of the Remington double riffles. In 450M I have a ported and a non-ported 1895M, both ballard rifling. The ported one I converted to pistol grip, a Custom built pre-64 Win 70 and a Custom Ruger M77. I've hunted the US and African PG with nearly all of them.

Second, separate the cartridges from the rifle using it. While it is true both the 45-70 and 450M can be hand loaded to the same/similar pressures and velocities, how many guys if handed a 50K psi hand load for a bolt action would be willing to put it in a "Trapdoor" and pull the trigger? These and more are reasons reloading manuals as well as SAMMI have three different sets of standards/limits and loading data for the 45-70: Trapdoor - under 28K PSI, Modern Lever - under 36K PSI, Modern Rifle - under 50K PSI and 450 in a 1895 Marlin under 43.5K PSI and unlisted max in bolt actions or #1s. While some 45-70 brass manufactures might make the 45-70 cases a bit thicker, the standard for all 450M brass is thicker than the standard for the 45-70 brass.

Third, many people forget the strength of the ACTION is the limiting factor in the 45-70. From least to highest - Trapdoors/low-walls early levers, modern levers - Marlin, and modern rifles - #1's/high-walls, Browning levers and bolts. An awful lot of people think that all Marlin 1895 actions are the same - they are NOT. While many of the parts will interchange there is a difference in the metallurgy and receiver/barrel threads between the regular 1895 and the 1895M. The regular 1895's use a "U" shaped thread and the 1895M uses a "V" shaped thread. This allows the 1895M to have more threads and also leave the barrel and receiver a bit thicker.

The historical reason Hornady and Marlin teamed up to develop the 450 Marlin was to: a) take advantage of the capability of modern smokeless powders and push them to max safe levels b) make sure the "modern" high pressure cartridge couldn't be "accidentally" put in an old Trapdoor or low wall and hurt someone. Additionally, it was a way to allow those shooters who don't/didn't reload to get all the advantages of the "modern" loads. Remember, this was before anyone like Garrett, Corebon or Buffalo Bore was offering anything and all the normal manufactures were limiting factory loads to the lowest common denominator - Trapdoor - to limit liability.

Also historically, rimmed/flanged cartridges don't feed as well in bolt action as they do in levers, singles and break actions - that is why nearly all big bore double rifles use rimmed/flanged cases and all big bore bolt actions don't. Hornady may have also hoped that the "rimless" case would spur rifle manufactures to start cambering more bolt actions in 450M. A few did - Ruger in the M77, Styer in their Pro Hunter line and Browning in their box magazine fed BLR's.

All that said and back to the OP's original question...When it comes to lever action Marlins - I like the 450 over the 45-70 because the rimless 450M feeds through the loading gate better/easier and the actions feel like they cycle smoother. In fact, I am taking the 1895M with me in a few weeks to South Africa while I take a PH training/certification course. I am taking the lever 450 over my bolts or the double for a couple of reasons: a) Nothing except a full or semi auto cycles faster than a lever gun. There is a "timed" shooting practical you have to pass - three shots in 15 seconds, one each at 30, 20 and 10 meters at a 4 centimeter target - easy with the lever, pushing it with a bolt and damned hard with a double. b) I am comfortable with it as it has be used for PG on every trip to Namibia. I can load it SAFELY and within Marlin max pressure limits to just under 458 Win Mag levels with 350gr Hornady JFP and I have a combination that puts me into the legal muzzle energy for DG. c) Willing to bet nobody has done the PH cert course with a lever gun before.

For the "normal" guy who loves lever guns and doesn't reload, I would tip in favor of the 45-70 simply for the wide array and availability of commercial ammo. For those that love Marlin levers and reload I would tip back to the 450M simply because the higher pressure limits of the 1895M actions allow the reloader to really push bullets beyond the design limits of the standard 1895 action.

Ported vs Non Ported, I like the ported. Personally, I can't tell the difference in sound level when shooting them. Standing/sitting next to them HUGE difference. I think barrel length is a bigger factor. My longer barreled bolts don't make my ears ring nearly as bad without ear plugs. The Marlin ports do make a big difference in muzzle jump/rise. Off the bench with sandbags or off shooting sticks with heavy and full house loads the ported Marlins just about lay/stay on the bag/sticks and don't need to be held at the fore stock while the non-ported nearly jump off the bags/rest. Can't say I can feel much recoil reduction/difference and that is comparing identical rifles except porting with same loads same day/trip to the range one after the other.


For those that want to enter the 458 Win Mag territory in bolt actions, I would tip to the 450M. The reason being primarily the smoother feeding of the rimless case. It took a lot more "work" to get the Siamese Mausers to feed 100% reliably with Spitzers and wide nose flat points and they just don't cycle as smoothly. If it was just one I could limit it to just that one but it is the same with all three.

The above is not meant to take anything away from the 45-70 as I love them too. My wife shoots 45-70 in "her" Marlin and "her" Mauser - 300 gr Nosler Partitions (till I run out) at 2000fps and has taken several head of PG out to 130yds with one shot/one kill, and I have taken multiple head of PG with the 45-70 before I got my first 1895M. In the bolts, both calibers, I am running 350gr Horady JFP, 350 Barnes TSX and a 330gr banded solid at 2400 FPS (chrono'd) with zero over pressure signs. The 330 solid passed end to end through a medium bodied zebra last year and the TSX's will just about pass end to end through a gemsbok, and the 350gr JFPs will just about knock a gemsbok off their feet at impact inside 75yds. Also, use Cast Performance 405gr Wide Flat Points in the Marlins loaded to 1850 fps and they will pass through gemsbok on broad side shots and nearly end to end.

Just the opinions of one guy.

Thanks for that post.

Isn't the .450 a belted case, like the H&H Mag clones, instead of a true rimless? I would think a belted case would feed better than a true rimmed case.

And with the ported gun. I've read that the PH's in Africa generally hate ported guns or guns with muzzle brakes due to the number of people usually along on a hunt. There is often someone standing by the hunter as the shot is taken, not a good place to be when a ported rifle is fired. You wouldn't want to show up for your PH gig and be embarrassed when they DQ your gun. You may want to check into that in advance.

DF

Dirtfarmer:

Yes, the 450M is a true belted case, but the placement and size prevent it from being used in a 458 Win Mag and prevent a shortened 458 Win Mag case from fitting in a 450M. The extra webbing and brass they (Hornady) put into the 450M case reduces its powder capacity by about 8% compared to Hornady 45-70 brass (per Hornady tech rep I spoke to a few years ago) That is why a lot of reloading tables show the 45-70 as able to reach higher velocities than the 450M when loading max loads in modern (bolts/#1's etc) rifles. That is why I love my Siamese Mausers in 45-70.

Regarding the ports/muzzle brakes and PH's; that's pretty much a PH to PH issue. I've got a 458 Win Mag and a 375 H&H and to be honest if you are standing near the muzzle of either of those with full house loads the "blast" experience is the same/similar to the ported Marlins. As I stated above I think the shorter barrels on the Marlin Guide Guns has more to do with the perceived blast and noise than the ports. As long as the "spotter/observer/PH is standing behind the shooter (where they should be anyway) it has never been an issue. The Marlin factory ports are intended to primarily prevent muzzle rise and secondarily reduce recoil. To tell the truth, with Trapdoor level loads you really can't tell that much difference with the ports. As you move up in velocity the porting becomes more and more effective and you really can tell a difference between the two.

While the 45-70 & 450M are technically "big bores" they are still running at similar pressures and significantly lower powder charges then the real big bores - 450M and 45-70's pretty much max out a 60gr while the 458 Win Mags, 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 500's etc are just at minimum loads with 60gr.

Already told them what I was planning on bringing and they said no problems and where looking forward to actually seeing something different. Taking a few extra rounds for the other guys in the course to play with a little.

If I were to pick one for a bolt gun, without a doubt it would be the .450 for the reasons you mentioned.

It is a fairly straightforward conversion for a rifle chambered in one of the Winchester Short Mags.

Thanks for the great responses !

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the 450M had been around when all those Siamese Mausers were coming back to the US. Most conversions were into 45-70 because the 45-70 hand loaders wanted a repeater action that could handle the really hot 45-70 loads. The inexpensive and very high quality metallurgy and large ring 98 Mauser actions of the Siamese surplus rifles filled the bill.

The only real shortcomings of the Siamese Mauser conversion is they have to mill out/open up the rim of the bolt face to accept the 45-70 case head. This leaves the bolt face rim a little thin. If the 450M had been around at the time the milling of the bolt face would not have been needed. Also, at that time - mid to late 70's - the 45-70 commercial interest was not high. It was the hand loaders who really kept the round alive until it has now regained the very popular following it has today.

This "new" popularity is what has encouraged the development of high performance commercial loadings from Hornady (LeverEvolutions), Buffalo Bore, Garrett, Corbon etc. If they didn't think there was a viable market they wouldn't be selling.

The custom Win 70 and Ruger 77 in 450 are VERY VERY sweat!!. That is why my 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag basically stay in the safe and have less than 100rd through them.

While I'm in ZA, after the PH course is over, I'm staying a few days to do some PG culling. Going to experiment with a new solid copper bullet from a company called Cutting Edge Bullets. It is a 325gr #13 FP solid. It is not listed on their web site yet. There is guy over on the AR web site that is doing a lot of CEB bullet testing and working with the development of all the CEB bullets. This particular one is going 60+ inches dead straight in wet newsprint at 25yds and only 2300fps. At 45-70 Marlin pressure limits he is repeatedly getting 45+ inches dead straight. I've got a couple of hundred of these and they are going to be what I use/test on the cull hunting. If you go to the AR site and look in the Big Bore section under the topic Terminal Bullet performance there are several hundred pages of photos, bullet data, load data, and penetration results. He has dispelled a lot of misconceptions about the capabilities of a lot of bullets.

Very interesting. Looking forward to a report.

DF

The use of the .450M case would have certainly precluded some of the feeding problems that are fairly common to that conversion.

Today's WSM-chambered rifles allow that conversion with very little work other than a simple barrel change. Some feed-ramp work, maybe touching up the mag lips, and thump away.

I haven't built one yet, but still yearn for, something along the lines of an M7 sized rifle in .450 Marlin.

It would have to have a little more weight, but no more than my Guide gun, which does recoil pretty stout, but not unbearable. I just have to limit the number of rounds I fire, and I'm sure a more modern stock design would help decrease felt recoil. The Brockman's stock on my GG helped tremendously with recoil, but I'm thinking a stock designed for a modern bolt rifle would be even more improvement.

Vic:

The first Siamese Mausers I found kind of by accident a couple of years ago when I was shopping for a 458 Win Mag on GB. Didn't know a thing about the Siamese Mausers. The guy who was offering a Charles Daley (made by CZ) NIB 458 Win Mag was executor of his friends estate; the friend was an avid collector and supposedly a founding/charter member of the NRA. Anyway.....he wanted to know if I would be interested in a matching Charles Daley NIB in 375 H&H and a custom built, never shot after built, Siamese Mauser in 45-70. I knew the history/background on the CD's but nothing about the SM's. My interest in the SM was due only to the 45-70 caliber being in a bolt action. We struck a deal on all three. While waiting for them to arrive got busy researching the SM's. From a historical prospective I was impressed.

The CD's were exactly as expected but the SM was a complete surprise....gorgeous wood, heavy barrel contour, full floated, bedded and dark Weatherby style bluing. Put a Leupold 1-4x20 VXI on it - weighed in at 10 1/2 lbs - same as the CD's. Sighted in with some medium level loads and gradually worked up to full house plus. The recoil was on par with the medium level 458 Win Mag loads. That was the start of my Siamese Mauser addiction and wanting to convert a 450M into a SM action.

GB is a wonderful thing. While trying to find a good SM action and a gunsmith to do the conversion, I came across the next two SM's (less then $450 each) The conversion/gunsmith work was good but not great, good wood, lighter barrel contours but turned out to be VERY good shooters. One is 9 lbs and one is 8 1/2 lbs. The lower weight does increase the felt recoil pretty noticeably.

While playing with and tweaking these to suite my tastes, I stumble on the Custom built pre-64 Win Mod 70 in 450M - stainless half octagon/half round target crowned, blue printed action, full floated, bedded, front cross bolt, Timney trigger. It was built buy a guy who builds BR comp rifles. The story from the smith was the guy who commissioned the rifle from the smith, put half the money up, the rifle was completed and after several years and multiple attempts to contact the guy he never came back to claim the rifle so the smith sold it. I got it for a song (said a couple of Hail Mary's) after it arrived an I shot it. That has to be the absolute sweetest most accurate rifle I've ever owned. It went to Namibia this past June/July with 350gr TSX's at 2400fps. It was like shooting a laser.

I stumbled on the Ruger 77 (tang safety) 450M conversion by accident at a gun show this past June just before leaving for Namibia. I only look for big bores and saw the big barrel hole in a rack, looked a little closer and saw what it was. The wood was a little rough and water stained on one side of the butt, has a stainless fluted barrel that was either painted or Cerakote or something and scratched up a bit. I could just about pass a dollar bill between the barrel and stock all the way to the receiver and a very light and crisp trigger - out the door for $435. Put a quick quick scope on it and to the range just to function test and low and behold I get another fantastic shooter. A couple of hours with some colored wood wax and fine steel wool brought the stock back, a little black magic marker covered the scratches on the barrel and it looks like new. A serious barrel refinish of some kind will have to wait until this winter.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE my Marlin levers and they and my bolts will be that last thing to ever leave my hands but the bolts do allow taking the 45-70 & 450M to the next level...if they just cycled as fast.....

Guess what I am getting at is if you look long enough and are just a little bit lucky you can find a bolt conversion to 45-70 or 450M for a LOT LESS then getting one built yourself.

Sorry to hijack the thread....back to our regular programming.

Great post, taco.

How about some photos.

DF

DF:

It will have to be later next week - I have them spread out between two places - I don't keep all my eggs in one basket. Second caveat is I don't do Photobucket or any such on-line photo hosting services. Once I take the photos I'll be happy to email them to someone to post for me. I'll try to group them all together by type - one with the Marlins and one with the bolts.

The only ones I won't have access to are going to be my #1 the 1895GS and the straight grip 1895M as they are at my place in another State. My last two Siamese Mauser acquisitions are currently at my local gunsmiths being worked over. I'm having him float the barrels, bed the actions, install front crossbolts, fill the old iron sight holes on the barrels, cut one barrel down from 26" to 22" and re-crown, install Gentry 3-position safety's, re-blue and re-finish the wood and new Limbsaver pads. I mostly want them to look as good as they shoot. The shortest one is also having the stock custom fit (LOP) to my wife. The wood on that one is very nice but the inletting work was pretty poorly done - actually the inletting work was pretty poorly done on both of these.

The other Marlins I will add with the Marlin group photo is a NIB 1895 in .410 and a NIB 1895 in 35Rem. I am pretty sure they are in my safe here in FL. I'm currently, out of town with the in-laws/out-laws but should be able to send someone the photos by mid next week.

That Ruger in .450 would have given me the hot-and-bothers if I'da found it.

You mentioned the downside of chambering a bolt gun in .45-70, and when the .450 was introduced and I saw the cartridge dimensions, I knew a problem had been addressed.

I'll probably build one, though I have really no use for it, for no reason other than to scratch an itch.

It sounds as if those SMs are going to be some nice pieces.

Vic:

All I can say is that it must have been fate. I saw it at the gun show on Sat morning looked it over put it down and walked away. Went back a couple of hours later just before I left and looked it over again closer. Put it down and walked away and left the show. The more I thought about it over night, the more I kicked myself for not buying it. Decided that I would go back Sunday and if it was still there I'd take it.

Got tied up Sunday morning and didn't get there till mid afternoon and low and behold it was STILL there. Looked it over REAL close again and took a small magnet with me to confirm my intuition that the barrel was actually stainless - it was, and asked the guy a little about it. Said he had had it for awhile and nobody had really been interested in when they saw the water stains on the stock and the scratched up barrel. Asked him what his bottom $$ was, he said $450 - had $600 on his hang tag. I countered with $400 and we settled on $435 out the door. Figured that IF it turned out to be a stainless fluted Shilen the barrel job and action alone was worth that and I could put a new stock on it and still be ahead of starting a conversion from scratch. Still not certain it is a Shilen as I haven't had the time to really dig into it yet. But it shot damn fine MOA with ammo I had on hand so it might get better. I must be living right all thought...about 18 months ago I missed out on a NIB Styer Pro Hunter in 450M for $750. When they were new on the Styer web site they were selling for $2400 - I REALLY kicked myself for that one.

If the other two come back like I hope they do I can guarantee there is going to be a near new matched pair of CD Custom Safaris in 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag going up for sale!!!

Sorry that we (I) keep getting the OP's original question off track.

Taco,

Your posts are not "off track". The OP asked, ".45-70 or .450 M and Why?" You just told him why the .450 M is the better round for a bolt gun conversion. For lever guns, the difference for a handloader is not as definite, maybe moot.

You like the .450 M bolt guns enough to let your .375/.458 pair go?

DF

DF:

Ref the CD 375 & 458. Absolutely going to get rid of them once the two SM's in the shop come back and prove as reliable as when I took them in. Most of the work on them was just cosmetic and they both shot MOA before. The floating and bedding should put them sub MOA.

As for performance goes, with the new mono-metal solids and fragmenting bullets that Cutting Edge Bullets is putting out now and the TSX's, combined with the under 200yd hunting I (we) do, there really no point to them - the 375 & 458 I mean. And I would and intend to use the 45-70/450M on DG at some point to include Cape Buff and El. And before the naysayers jump in and on me, they need to go over the AR web site and look at the several hundred pages of posts and photos that Michael458 and others have been doing comparing conventional "cup & core" bullets and solids!!! It will open some eyes and it dispels a lot of "conventional wisdom".

Also before the naysayers jump on me regarding the 45-70/450M isn't "legal" for DG they might want to go over the AR site and actually look up what is "legal" and what isn't. Only two countries have min muzzle energy requirements and a .458dia 350gr projectile at 2275fps meet those requirements in both. The 45-70 in a #1, bolt, or BLR can do that easily and stay under the max pressure limits of those actions and the Marlin 1895M (450M) can too. I have already worked up the 450M loads.

The new CEB #13 350gr solids in .458 at 2350fps repeatedly went 60+ inches of wet newspaper dead straight - more than enough for Buff or El. The "Big Five" have already been taken by Vince Lopo with a Marlin, and Micheal458 just got back from a DG hunt of multiple el and buff with various caliber of CEB #13's with great success.

I have leverguns, single shots and bolt guns in 45-70, 450 M and 458 American...BLR, NEF and SMLE...among my few dozen other shooters.

As far as game killing goes I see NO DIFFERENCE in ANY of those 3 cartridges...they ALL do it exceptionaly well.

There is always personal opinion, "like and don't like" stuff going on...it NEVER changes.

Velocities and case capacities are governed by seating depth, load velocity AND bullet weights and can be mixed or matched across the board, keeping each one EXACTLY EQUAL to each other, which gets stomped into a bloody mudhole when these *****45-70 comparisons keep getting posted.

Either someone doesn't know how to do a search for information or maybe it's just stirring the pot...probably both.

It basically boils down to what rifle you happen to have...EVERYONE loves whatever shooters they have and whizzes on others for some reason, you know...My dog's bigger, better, meaner, smarter ad nauseum, ad infinitum...than your dog.

I DON'T like the large rim of the 45-70 in EITHER a levergun or bolt gun for many concrete reasons having to do with feeding and magazine problems so I like the 450 M and 458 American in those applications...I have NO PROBLEMS with ANY of the rim configurations in a single shot...my NEF BC digests 45-70 thru 45-120 with bullet weights from 300 to 720gr without a whimper and if you know what you're doing as far as seting headspace and trim lengths you can actually shoot all three in ONE chamber...I've done it with a BLR 450M and my SMLE bolt gun...

Almost all the arguments I have read since the 450M came out are a bit laughable, having played this game for a very long time, and they keep getting repeated on all the forums...I've yet to hear something new or something other than personal bias.

BUT...that's seems to be the nature of the game today so it will continue with only a few shooters really learning and realizing just how GREAT CHOICE IS...and that's just about what it boils down to. Very few seem to realize that choice and innovation drives the economy of the world...and of course, WAR. Without these we would still be eating raw meat or scavanging.

I can load my 450 M in my BLR almost to 458 WM velocities as it will handle the same pressure as the WM, with selected powders and the same weigh bullets up to about 450 gr where the WM out does the 450 M because of case capacity...the same with my SMLE bolt gun...

You CAN'T do the same with a levergun...

Depending on seating depth, bullet weight being the same...THEORETICALLY...you can load the 45-70 VERY SLIGHTLY HIGHER than the 450 M...but I haven't seen that as the only way to compare directly is to use the same barrel and receiver, chamber for the 45-70 first as it is slightly smaller in the body than the 450 Marlin, work the load up to optimum...THEN...rechamber to 450 M and do the same...otherwise you will be comparing apples to cumquats and no two barrels will produce identical velocities, for the most part, chambered the same.

Factory loads are one thing, but handloaders can and do go where factory loads fear to tread...most of the time safely.

What's that saying..."Don't let an ugly fact spoil a beautiful theory"...the same goes here...way too many theories and no one wants to hear the ugly facts.

It really doesn't matter...decide for youself and enjoy WHATEVER toy you happen to have.

LUCK

NFG:

Concur.

What is a bit scary for me is when I hear guys putting out load recipes that generate chamber pressures that go way above the engineering and design limits of a particular action or in the case of the 45-70, try to compare the "old" Trapdoor level loads to modern higher pressure smokeless powder loadings and actions.

In keeping in line with the OP's original question - both the 45-70 and 450M in the confines of pressure limits of the correct action offerings - each has it's virtues and each has it's limitations. Just be careful.

+1

What's good info from an experienced hand loader who carefully worked up a high performance load for his rifle, may be bad info for someone starting out, assuming too much as he loads the recipe.

DF