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Which would you choose and why if you weren't worried about Grizzlies and just wanted one for Deer,Elk, Bears,etc
Would you choose ported or non ported ?
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Either one. I prefer non-ported.
For the game you mentioned, either would be sufficient.
If you handload, you can get .450 Marlin performance out of the .45-70, or factory .45-70 performance out of the .450 Marlin.
There is "boutique" loadings for the .45-70 that exploit the capability of the cartridge, but it can be costly. .450 Marlin ammo is going to just be costly, when you can find it. It is not customarily stocked in most stores, but is readily available online or through mail order.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Either one. I prefer non-ported.
For the game you mentioned, either would be sufficient.
If you handload, you can get .450 Marlin performance out of the .45-70, or factory .45-70 performance out of the .450 Marlin.
There is "boutique" loadings for the .45-70 that exploit the capability of the cartridge, but it can be costly. .450 Marlin ammo is going to just be costly, when you can find it. It is not customarily stocked in most stores, but is readily available online or through mail order.
+1 for the 45-70, non-ported. For the handloader, I see no advantage to the .450. I can load my .45-70 to match the .450. Some say .450 brass is stronger. But, to me .45-70 brass is strong enough to load a lot more round than most would be comfortable shooting. The brass, IMHO, isn't the limiting factor and .45-70 brass is easier to find. It looks to me like the .450 was designed for high performance 45-70 loads that wouldn't by mistake wind up in a Trapdoor or equivalent. If you're a factory ammo manufacturer then I guess that makes sense. For the rest of us, not really. DF
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Either one. I prefer non-ported.
For the game you mentioned, either would be sufficient.
If you handload, you can get .450 Marlin performance out of the .45-70, or factory .45-70 performance out of the .450 Marlin.
There is "boutique" loadings for the .45-70 that exploit the capability of the cartridge, but it can be costly. .450 Marlin ammo is going to just be costly, when you can find it. It is not customarily stocked in most stores, but is readily available online or through mail order.
+1 for the 45-70, non-ported. For the handloader, I see no advantage to the .450. I can load my .45-70 to match the .450. Some say .450 brass is stronger. But, to me .45-70 brass is strong enough to load a lot more round than most would be comfortable shooting. The brass, IMHO, isn't the limiting factor and .45-70 brass is easier to find. It looks to me like the .450 was designed for high performance 45-70 loads that wouldn't by mistake wind up in a Trapdoor or equivalent. If you're a factory ammo manufacturer then I guess that makes sense. For the rest of us, not really. DF I do not have a 450 Marlin, so I can't and won't comment on that specifically . . . BUT These two posts/replies say whatever I would have. Can't add much more except to reinforce that if you handload, the 45-70 can do some amazing things for you. But, I'm partial to the 45-70. Oh, yeah, if you do go 45-70, go non-ported.
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Which would you choose and why if you weren't worried about Grizzlies and just wanted one for Deer,Elk, Bears,etc
Would you choose ported or non ported ? Both my oldest son & I have .450 Marlins. We chose it because You don�t have to look for �Marlin� loadings. The Ammo is costly but I reload so it is no big deal. I have an XLR and my son has the original �rifle� with a 22 inch barrel, neither one ported. I just don�t like this chambering with short barbells and I don�t know why anyone would want a ported barrel� IMO BTW, my boy used his 450 (with Brockman peep sights) to shoot a Red Deer at 208yrds� one shot. They are very accurate rifles.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
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.45-70
FWIW, I won't even look at another .450 Marlin - Had a Winchester 94 Timber so chambered, and never felt so limited.
I went back to the .45-70, as it's waaaay more flexible than the .450M, especially for a non-handloader, with 300gr JHP's for deer, etc, and heavier slugs for Elk, if wanted.
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It ain't no fun, when the rabbit's got the gun
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I have owned a 45-70 (not in a Guide Gun) and I currently have a 450 Marlin Guide Gun. I love both cartridges and can't find a smidgeon of difference in terms of performance. Both are amazing thumpers and a joy to load for and shoot.
IF you handload, buy the one that you can get the best deal on. If you DON'T handload, buy the 45-70 because ammo will be much more available.
I have a lifetime supply of brass for my 450 and am content but it won't do anything that a 45-70 won't do equally well.
ttpoz
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I went 45-70, non-ported, a couple of times.
Performance-wise, they both can do the same thing for the handloader. 450 factory ammo is all fairly warm, 45-70 factory ammo gives you more choices from mild to wild, and is generally more available.
I like the nostalgia that goes with the 45-70 too.
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I wont shoot a non ported 45-70. I shot a non ported 50 Alaskan once and wont do it again.
WildidontlikerecoilAlaska ��2002-2011
Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine t�tige Unwissenheit.
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I would choose the .45-70 because ammo will always be available. The 450 was dead before it was born. I wouldn't own a ported gun they are too loud. The .45-70 really doesn't have enough recoil to worry about.
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Ported Guide guns are painfully loud. I would also choose a .45/70.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The .45-70 really doesn't have enough recoil to worry about. I can load you some rounds that will rattle your teeth...! But, they don't have to be loaded hot to be deadly on deer, hogs, etc. DF
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Buffalo Bore has a 405gr load at 2000 fps. That has to have some bounce to it.
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Oh, you can shoot stuff out of a 45/70 that require bolting down yer tooth fillings. I have come to realize that ya just don't need it. Hell, a relatively soft alloy(20:1)400 or 420 grain bullet at 1400 will smoke ANYTHING in N.America out of its sneakers AND if you get the right iron sights and take the time and trouble (?) to learn the gun, it will do its killing so far away and so well that most would go into shock.
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I have one of the first 450's that made it into Canada. It's ported. It doesn't seem very loud to me as the shooter. I think a lot of the comments about loudness are re-cycled by folks who never heard one. I like the 450. I'd probably like the 45-70 just as much.
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No 450 experience, but I do run a 45-70 Guide gun. Factory fodder 405 grain slugs (1,250 fps) are easy on the shoulder, while hopped up loads doing 1,750 fps are a little hard on the fillings. Ammo and cartriges are abundant for the 45-70. Regardless, I would not do ports. Too loud, and they catch twigs, snow, and ice. Either should ground anything that walks in North America and most of Africa.
1Minute
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Absolutely love love love my 1895GS 45-70! I got it in a trade from a guy in Alaska before the 450 came in to existence (I think). I initially had traded with a different guy for the plain ol' 22" barrel rifle model, hunted with it one time, and hated it. Sold it immediately afterwards and acquired the stainless Guide Gun. Timeline notwithstanding, I probably would have gone 45-70 anyway simply because it's got so much history and character.
From my recollection, the velocity difference between the guide gun and rifle isn't much. Less than 100fps velocity loss. For where I hunt, the shorter more compact guide model is WAY worth the few fps loss. For me, the absolute max range would be 200yds regardless of barrel length, and quite honestly if a 300gr hardcast @ 2000fps won't go lengthwise through what you hit, a 400gr hardcast @ 1800fps certainly will.
I have a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott that I intend to use as a longer range 45-70 with loads of 400gr JSP @ 2000fps to 2200fps, but I fully expect the 1895GS to be the first one I grab each and every time.
...on earth as it is in Texas.
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Why would you get a 450 when you can get a 45/70 that will basically do the same and offers a whole better selection of ammunition and bullet weights.
When Ronald Reagan was president, we had Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.
Now that Barack Obama is president, we have NO hope and NO cash.
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The .450 has several advantages over the 45-70, which is something died in the wool 45-70 types don't want to hear. I'm more than certain that 45-70 afficiandoes will wish to take me to task for this, but its simple truth.
1) 450 brass is stronger, and designed for high pressure loads.
2) 450 load data is engineered at 43,500 psi. No trouble, no speculation.
3) 450 ammo is readily available, and is more consistent than factory 45-70 ammo.
4) The 450 trucks along quite happily with bullets of a variety of weights.
Now, before the 45-70 heads start screaming, this ancient round is fully capable of anything its reasonably called upon to do. Lets face it, though, the best 45-70 performance is only available to knowledgeable handloaders, or those who can afford boutique ammo prices. The 450 performance is available to anyone who can buy a box of factory ammo.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Different strokes...
I can load equivalent 45-70 rounds to match what you're doing with the .450. Good 45-70 brass is plenty strong for teeth rattling loads. I'll give up before the brass does, so the stronger .450 brass is moot.
I have (6) 45-70's and no .450's. That's about the right ratio, IMHO.
DF
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Seems like many of the .450's I have seen are ported and not nearly as many 45-70's
For North American game, even big bears would you really be able to tell the difference?
"Jerry is dead, Phish suck time to get a job "
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For North American game, even big bears would you really be able to tell the difference?
The bear wouldn't, for sure. I doubt the shooter would, either. I'll admit, it helps to be a reloader to fully enjoy the 45-70. I think the .450 was set up for the non-reloader so hot ammo wouldn't end up in a Trapdoor, etc. That, to me, seems more of a legal liability issue than a ballistics issue. I can make my 45-70's walk side by side the .450 and not be embarrassed. IMHO, DF
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Sorry in advance - this might be a little long.....
First, in the interest of full disclosure I own, shoot, hunt and reload for both. In 45-70 I have a #1, several Marlin 1895Gs and a GS - they are in various combinations of ported, non-ported, micro-grove and Ballard rifling. Three Siamese Mausers and one of the Remington double riffles. In 450M I have a ported and a non-ported 1895M, both ballard rifling. The ported one I converted to pistol grip, a Custom built pre-64 Win 70 and a Custom Ruger M77. I've hunted the US and African PG with nearly all of them.
Second, separate the cartridges from the rifle using it. While it is true both the 45-70 and 450M can be hand loaded to the same/similar pressures and velocities, how many guys if handed a 50K psi hand load for a bolt action would be willing to put it in a "Trapdoor" and pull the trigger? These and more are reasons reloading manuals as well as SAMMI have three different sets of standards/limits and loading data for the 45-70: Trapdoor - under 28K PSI, Modern Lever - under 36K PSI, Modern Rifle - under 50K PSI and 450 in a 1895 Marlin under 43.5K PSI and unlisted max in bolt actions or #1s. While some 45-70 brass manufactures might make the 45-70 cases a bit thicker, the standard for all 450M brass is thicker than the standard for the 45-70 brass.
Third, many people forget the strength of the ACTION is the limiting factor in the 45-70. From least to highest - Trapdoors/low-walls early levers, modern levers - Marlin, and modern rifles - #1's/high-walls, Browning levers and bolts. An awful lot of people think that all Marlin 1895 actions are the same - they are NOT. While many of the parts will interchange there is a difference in the metallurgy and receiver/barrel threads between the regular 1895 and the 1895M. The regular 1895's use a "U" shaped thread and the 1895M uses a "V" shaped thread. This allows the 1895M to have more threads and also leave the barrel and receiver a bit thicker.
The historical reason Hornady and Marlin teamed up to develop the 450 Marlin was to: a) take advantage of the capability of modern smokeless powders and push them to max safe levels b) make sure the "modern" high pressure cartridge couldn't be "accidentally" put in an old Trapdoor or low wall and hurt someone. Additionally, it was a way to allow those shooters who don't/didn't reload to get all the advantages of the "modern" loads. Remember, this was before anyone like Garrett, Corebon or Buffalo Bore was offering anything and all the normal manufactures were limiting factory loads to the lowest common denominator - Trapdoor - to limit liability.
Also historically, rimmed/flanged cartridges don't feed as well in bolt action as they do in levers, singles and break actions - that is why nearly all big bore double rifles use rimmed/flanged cases and all big bore bolt actions don't. Hornady may have also hoped that the "rimless" case would spur rifle manufactures to start cambering more bolt actions in 450M. A few did - Ruger in the M77, Styer in their Pro Hunter line and Browning in their box magazine fed BLR's.
All that said and back to the OP's original question...When it comes to lever action Marlins - I like the 450 over the 45-70 because the rimless 450M feeds through the loading gate better/easier and the actions feel like they cycle smoother. In fact, I am taking the 1895M with me in a few weeks to South Africa while I take a PH training/certification course. I am taking the lever 450 over my bolts or the double for a couple of reasons: a) Nothing except a full or semi auto cycles faster than a lever gun. There is a "timed" shooting practical you have to pass - three shots in 15 seconds, one each at 30, 20 and 10 meters at a 4 centimeter target - easy with the lever, pushing it with a bolt and damned hard with a double. b) I am comfortable with it as it has be used for PG on every trip to Namibia. I can load it SAFELY and within Marlin max pressure limits to just under 458 Win Mag levels with 350gr Hornady JFP and I have a combination that puts me into the legal muzzle energy for DG. c) Willing to bet nobody has done the PH cert course with a lever gun before.
For the "normal" guy who loves lever guns and doesn't reload, I would tip in favor of the 45-70 simply for the wide array and availability of commercial ammo. For those that love Marlin levers and reload I would tip back to the 450M simply because the higher pressure limits of the 1895M actions allow the reloader to really push bullets beyond the design limits of the standard 1895 action.
Ported vs Non Ported, I like the ported. Personally, I can't tell the difference in sound level when shooting them. Standing/sitting next to them HUGE difference. I think barrel length is a bigger factor. My longer barreled bolts don't make my ears ring nearly as bad without ear plugs. The Marlin ports do make a big difference in muzzle jump/rise. Off the bench with sandbags or off shooting sticks with heavy and full house loads the ported Marlins just about lay/stay on the bag/sticks and don't need to be held at the fore stock while the non-ported nearly jump off the bags/rest. Can't say I can feel much recoil reduction/difference and that is comparing identical rifles except porting with same loads same day/trip to the range one after the other.
For those that want to enter the 458 Win Mag territory in bolt actions, I would tip to the 450M. The reason being primarily the smoother feeding of the rimless case. It took a lot more "work" to get the Siamese Mausers to feed 100% reliably with Spitzers and wide nose flat points and they just don't cycle as smoothly. If it was just one I could limit it to just that one but it is the same with all three.
The above is not meant to take anything away from the 45-70 as I love them too. My wife shoots 45-70 in "her" Marlin and "her" Mauser - 300 gr Nosler Partitions (till I run out) at 2000fps and has taken several head of PG out to 130yds with one shot/one kill, and I have taken multiple head of PG with the 45-70 before I got my first 1895M. In the bolts, both calibers, I am running 350gr Horady JFP, 350 Barnes TSX and a 330gr banded solid at 2400 FPS (chrono'd) with zero over pressure signs. The 330 solid passed end to end through a medium bodied zebra last year and the TSX's will just about pass end to end through a gemsbok, and the 350gr JFPs will just about knock a gemsbok off their feet at impact inside 75yds. Also, use Cast Performance 405gr Wide Flat Points in the Marlins loaded to 1850 fps and they will pass through gemsbok on broad side shots and nearly end to end.
Just the opinions of one guy.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks for that post.
Isn't the .450 a belted case, like the H&H Mag clones, instead of a true rimless? I would think a belted case would feed better than a true rimmed case.
And with the ported gun. I've read that the PH's in Africa generally hate ported guns or guns with muzzle brakes due to the number of people usually along on a hunt. There is often someone standing by the hunter as the shot is taken, not a good place to be when a ported rifle is fired. You wouldn't want to show up for your PH gig and be embarrassed when they DQ your gun. You may want to check into that in advance.
DF
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Dirtfarmer:
Yes, the 450M is a true belted case, but the placement and size prevent it from being used in a 458 Win Mag and prevent a shortened 458 Win Mag case from fitting in a 450M. The extra webbing and brass they (Hornady) put into the 450M case reduces its powder capacity by about 8% compared to Hornady 45-70 brass (per Hornady tech rep I spoke to a few years ago) That is why a lot of reloading tables show the 45-70 as able to reach higher velocities than the 450M when loading max loads in modern (bolts/#1's etc) rifles. That is why I love my Siamese Mausers in 45-70.
Regarding the ports/muzzle brakes and PH's; that's pretty much a PH to PH issue. I've got a 458 Win Mag and a 375 H&H and to be honest if you are standing near the muzzle of either of those with full house loads the "blast" experience is the same/similar to the ported Marlins. As I stated above I think the shorter barrels on the Marlin Guide Guns has more to do with the perceived blast and noise than the ports. As long as the "spotter/observer/PH is standing behind the shooter (where they should be anyway) it has never been an issue. The Marlin factory ports are intended to primarily prevent muzzle rise and secondarily reduce recoil. To tell the truth, with Trapdoor level loads you really can't tell that much difference with the ports. As you move up in velocity the porting becomes more and more effective and you really can tell a difference between the two.
While the 45-70 & 450M are technically "big bores" they are still running at similar pressures and significantly lower powder charges then the real big bores - 450M and 45-70's pretty much max out a 60gr while the 458 Win Mags, 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 500's etc are just at minimum loads with 60gr.
Already told them what I was planning on bringing and they said no problems and where looking forward to actually seeing something different. Taking a few extra rounds for the other guys in the course to play with a little.
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If I were to pick one for a bolt gun, without a doubt it would be the .450 for the reasons you mentioned.
It is a fairly straightforward conversion for a rifle chambered in one of the Winchester Short Mags.
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Thanks for the great responses !
"Jerry is dead, Phish suck time to get a job "
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I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the 450M had been around when all those Siamese Mausers were coming back to the US. Most conversions were into 45-70 because the 45-70 hand loaders wanted a repeater action that could handle the really hot 45-70 loads. The inexpensive and very high quality metallurgy and large ring 98 Mauser actions of the Siamese surplus rifles filled the bill.
The only real shortcomings of the Siamese Mauser conversion is they have to mill out/open up the rim of the bolt face to accept the 45-70 case head. This leaves the bolt face rim a little thin. If the 450M had been around at the time the milling of the bolt face would not have been needed. Also, at that time - mid to late 70's - the 45-70 commercial interest was not high. It was the hand loaders who really kept the round alive until it has now regained the very popular following it has today.
This "new" popularity is what has encouraged the development of high performance commercial loadings from Hornady (LeverEvolutions), Buffalo Bore, Garrett, Corbon etc. If they didn't think there was a viable market they wouldn't be selling.
The custom Win 70 and Ruger 77 in 450 are VERY VERY sweat!!. That is why my 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag basically stay in the safe and have less than 100rd through them.
While I'm in ZA, after the PH course is over, I'm staying a few days to do some PG culling. Going to experiment with a new solid copper bullet from a company called Cutting Edge Bullets. It is a 325gr #13 FP solid. It is not listed on their web site yet. There is guy over on the AR web site that is doing a lot of CEB bullet testing and working with the development of all the CEB bullets. This particular one is going 60+ inches dead straight in wet newsprint at 25yds and only 2300fps. At 45-70 Marlin pressure limits he is repeatedly getting 45+ inches dead straight. I've got a couple of hundred of these and they are going to be what I use/test on the cull hunting. If you go to the AR site and look in the Big Bore section under the topic Terminal Bullet performance there are several hundred pages of photos, bullet data, load data, and penetration results. He has dispelled a lot of misconceptions about the capabilities of a lot of bullets.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Very interesting. Looking forward to a report.
DF
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The use of the .450M case would have certainly precluded some of the feeding problems that are fairly common to that conversion.
Today's WSM-chambered rifles allow that conversion with very little work other than a simple barrel change. Some feed-ramp work, maybe touching up the mag lips, and thump away.
I haven't built one yet, but still yearn for, something along the lines of an M7 sized rifle in .450 Marlin.
It would have to have a little more weight, but no more than my Guide gun, which does recoil pretty stout, but not unbearable. I just have to limit the number of rounds I fire, and I'm sure a more modern stock design would help decrease felt recoil. The Brockman's stock on my GG helped tremendously with recoil, but I'm thinking a stock designed for a modern bolt rifle would be even more improvement.
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Vic:
The first Siamese Mausers I found kind of by accident a couple of years ago when I was shopping for a 458 Win Mag on GB. Didn't know a thing about the Siamese Mausers. The guy who was offering a Charles Daley (made by CZ) NIB 458 Win Mag was executor of his friends estate; the friend was an avid collector and supposedly a founding/charter member of the NRA. Anyway.....he wanted to know if I would be interested in a matching Charles Daley NIB in 375 H&H and a custom built, never shot after built, Siamese Mauser in 45-70. I knew the history/background on the CD's but nothing about the SM's. My interest in the SM was due only to the 45-70 caliber being in a bolt action. We struck a deal on all three. While waiting for them to arrive got busy researching the SM's. From a historical prospective I was impressed.
The CD's were exactly as expected but the SM was a complete surprise....gorgeous wood, heavy barrel contour, full floated, bedded and dark Weatherby style bluing. Put a Leupold 1-4x20 VXI on it - weighed in at 10 1/2 lbs - same as the CD's. Sighted in with some medium level loads and gradually worked up to full house plus. The recoil was on par with the medium level 458 Win Mag loads. That was the start of my Siamese Mauser addiction and wanting to convert a 450M into a SM action.
GB is a wonderful thing. While trying to find a good SM action and a gunsmith to do the conversion, I came across the next two SM's (less then $450 each) The conversion/gunsmith work was good but not great, good wood, lighter barrel contours but turned out to be VERY good shooters. One is 9 lbs and one is 8 1/2 lbs. The lower weight does increase the felt recoil pretty noticeably.
While playing with and tweaking these to suite my tastes, I stumble on the Custom built pre-64 Win Mod 70 in 450M - stainless half octagon/half round target crowned, blue printed action, full floated, bedded, front cross bolt, Timney trigger. It was built buy a guy who builds BR comp rifles. The story from the smith was the guy who commissioned the rifle from the smith, put half the money up, the rifle was completed and after several years and multiple attempts to contact the guy he never came back to claim the rifle so the smith sold it. I got it for a song (said a couple of Hail Mary's) after it arrived an I shot it. That has to be the absolute sweetest most accurate rifle I've ever owned. It went to Namibia this past June/July with 350gr TSX's at 2400fps. It was like shooting a laser.
I stumbled on the Ruger 77 (tang safety) 450M conversion by accident at a gun show this past June just before leaving for Namibia. I only look for big bores and saw the big barrel hole in a rack, looked a little closer and saw what it was. The wood was a little rough and water stained on one side of the butt, has a stainless fluted barrel that was either painted or Cerakote or something and scratched up a bit. I could just about pass a dollar bill between the barrel and stock all the way to the receiver and a very light and crisp trigger - out the door for $435. Put a quick quick scope on it and to the range just to function test and low and behold I get another fantastic shooter. A couple of hours with some colored wood wax and fine steel wool brought the stock back, a little black magic marker covered the scratches on the barrel and it looks like new. A serious barrel refinish of some kind will have to wait until this winter.
Don't get me wrong - I LOVE my Marlin levers and they and my bolts will be that last thing to ever leave my hands but the bolts do allow taking the 45-70 & 450M to the next level...if they just cycled as fast.....
Guess what I am getting at is if you look long enough and are just a little bit lucky you can find a bolt conversion to 45-70 or 450M for a LOT LESS then getting one built yourself.
Sorry to hijack the thread....back to our regular programming.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Great post, taco.
How about some photos.
DF
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DF:
It will have to be later next week - I have them spread out between two places - I don't keep all my eggs in one basket. Second caveat is I don't do Photobucket or any such on-line photo hosting services. Once I take the photos I'll be happy to email them to someone to post for me. I'll try to group them all together by type - one with the Marlins and one with the bolts.
The only ones I won't have access to are going to be my #1 the 1895GS and the straight grip 1895M as they are at my place in another State. My last two Siamese Mauser acquisitions are currently at my local gunsmiths being worked over. I'm having him float the barrels, bed the actions, install front crossbolts, fill the old iron sight holes on the barrels, cut one barrel down from 26" to 22" and re-crown, install Gentry 3-position safety's, re-blue and re-finish the wood and new Limbsaver pads. I mostly want them to look as good as they shoot. The shortest one is also having the stock custom fit (LOP) to my wife. The wood on that one is very nice but the inletting work was pretty poorly done - actually the inletting work was pretty poorly done on both of these.
The other Marlins I will add with the Marlin group photo is a NIB 1895 in .410 and a NIB 1895 in 35Rem. I am pretty sure they are in my safe here in FL. I'm currently, out of town with the in-laws/out-laws but should be able to send someone the photos by mid next week.
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That Ruger in .450 would have given me the hot-and-bothers if I'da found it.
You mentioned the downside of chambering a bolt gun in .45-70, and when the .450 was introduced and I saw the cartridge dimensions, I knew a problem had been addressed.
I'll probably build one, though I have really no use for it, for no reason other than to scratch an itch.
It sounds as if those SMs are going to be some nice pieces.
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Vic:
All I can say is that it must have been fate. I saw it at the gun show on Sat morning looked it over put it down and walked away. Went back a couple of hours later just before I left and looked it over again closer. Put it down and walked away and left the show. The more I thought about it over night, the more I kicked myself for not buying it. Decided that I would go back Sunday and if it was still there I'd take it.
Got tied up Sunday morning and didn't get there till mid afternoon and low and behold it was STILL there. Looked it over REAL close again and took a small magnet with me to confirm my intuition that the barrel was actually stainless - it was, and asked the guy a little about it. Said he had had it for awhile and nobody had really been interested in when they saw the water stains on the stock and the scratched up barrel. Asked him what his bottom $$ was, he said $450 - had $600 on his hang tag. I countered with $400 and we settled on $435 out the door. Figured that IF it turned out to be a stainless fluted Shilen the barrel job and action alone was worth that and I could put a new stock on it and still be ahead of starting a conversion from scratch. Still not certain it is a Shilen as I haven't had the time to really dig into it yet. But it shot damn fine MOA with ammo I had on hand so it might get better. I must be living right all thought...about 18 months ago I missed out on a NIB Styer Pro Hunter in 450M for $750. When they were new on the Styer web site they were selling for $2400 - I REALLY kicked myself for that one.
If the other two come back like I hope they do I can guarantee there is going to be a near new matched pair of CD Custom Safaris in 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag going up for sale!!!
Sorry that we (I) keep getting the OP's original question off track.
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Taco,
Your posts are not "off track". The OP asked, ".45-70 or .450 M and Why?" You just told him why the .450 M is the better round for a bolt gun conversion. For lever guns, the difference for a handloader is not as definite, maybe moot.
You like the .450 M bolt guns enough to let your .375/.458 pair go?
DF
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DF:
Ref the CD 375 & 458. Absolutely going to get rid of them once the two SM's in the shop come back and prove as reliable as when I took them in. Most of the work on them was just cosmetic and they both shot MOA before. The floating and bedding should put them sub MOA.
As for performance goes, with the new mono-metal solids and fragmenting bullets that Cutting Edge Bullets is putting out now and the TSX's, combined with the under 200yd hunting I (we) do, there really no point to them - the 375 & 458 I mean. And I would and intend to use the 45-70/450M on DG at some point to include Cape Buff and El. And before the naysayers jump in and on me, they need to go over the AR web site and look at the several hundred pages of posts and photos that Michael458 and others have been doing comparing conventional "cup & core" bullets and solids!!! It will open some eyes and it dispels a lot of "conventional wisdom".
Also before the naysayers jump on me regarding the 45-70/450M isn't "legal" for DG they might want to go over the AR site and actually look up what is "legal" and what isn't. Only two countries have min muzzle energy requirements and a .458dia 350gr projectile at 2275fps meet those requirements in both. The 45-70 in a #1, bolt, or BLR can do that easily and stay under the max pressure limits of those actions and the Marlin 1895M (450M) can too. I have already worked up the 450M loads.
The new CEB #13 350gr solids in .458 at 2350fps repeatedly went 60+ inches of wet newspaper dead straight - more than enough for Buff or El. The "Big Five" have already been taken by Vince Lopo with a Marlin, and Micheal458 just got back from a DG hunt of multiple el and buff with various caliber of CEB #13's with great success.
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I have leverguns, single shots and bolt guns in 45-70, 450 M and 458 American...BLR, NEF and SMLE...among my few dozen other shooters. As far as game killing goes I see NO DIFFERENCE in ANY of those 3 cartridges...they ALL do it exceptionaly well. There is always personal opinion, "like and don't like" stuff going on...it NEVER changes. Velocities and case capacities are governed by seating depth, load velocity AND bullet weights and can be mixed or matched across the board, keeping each one EXACTLY EQUAL to each other, which gets stomped into a bloody mudhole when these *****45-70 comparisons keep getting posted. Either someone doesn't know how to do a search for information or maybe it's just stirring the pot...probably both. It basically boils down to what rifle you happen to have...EVERYONE loves whatever shooters they have and whizzes on others for some reason, you know...My dog's bigger, better, meaner, smarter ad nauseum, ad infinitum...than your dog. I DON'T like the large rim of the 45-70 in EITHER a levergun or bolt gun for many concrete reasons having to do with feeding and magazine problems so I like the 450 M and 458 American in those applications...I have NO PROBLEMS with ANY of the rim configurations in a single shot...my NEF BC digests 45-70 thru 45-120 with bullet weights from 300 to 720gr without a whimper and if you know what you're doing as far as seting headspace and trim lengths you can actually shoot all three in ONE chamber...I've done it with a BLR 450M and my SMLE bolt gun... Almost all the arguments I have read since the 450M came out are a bit laughable, having played this game for a very long time, and they keep getting repeated on all the forums...I've yet to hear something new or something other than personal bias. BUT...that's seems to be the nature of the game today so it will continue with only a few shooters really learning and realizing just how GREAT CHOICE IS...and that's just about what it boils down to. Very few seem to realize that choice and innovation drives the economy of the world...and of course, WAR. Without these we would still be eating raw meat or scavanging. I can load my 450 M in my BLR almost to 458 WM velocities as it will handle the same pressure as the WM, with selected powders and the same weigh bullets up to about 450 gr where the WM out does the 450 M because of case capacity...the same with my SMLE bolt gun... You CAN'T do the same with a levergun... Depending on seating depth, bullet weight being the same...THEORETICALLY...you can load the 45-70 VERY SLIGHTLY HIGHER than the 450 M...but I haven't seen that as the only way to compare directly is to use the same barrel and receiver, chamber for the 45-70 first as it is slightly smaller in the body than the 450 Marlin, work the load up to optimum...THEN...rechamber to 450 M and do the same...otherwise you will be comparing apples to cumquats and no two barrels will produce identical velocities, for the most part, chambered the same. Factory loads are one thing, but handloaders can and do go where factory loads fear to tread...most of the time safely. What's that saying..."Don't let an ugly fact spoil a beautiful theory"...the same goes here...way too many theories and no one wants to hear the ugly facts. It really doesn't matter...decide for youself and enjoy WHATEVER toy you happen to have.  LUCK
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NFG:
Concur.
What is a bit scary for me is when I hear guys putting out load recipes that generate chamber pressures that go way above the engineering and design limits of a particular action or in the case of the 45-70, try to compare the "old" Trapdoor level loads to modern higher pressure smokeless powder loadings and actions.
In keeping in line with the OP's original question - both the 45-70 and 450M in the confines of pressure limits of the correct action offerings - each has it's virtues and each has it's limitations. Just be careful.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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NFG:
Concur.
What is a bit scary for me is when I hear guys putting out load recipes that generate chamber pressures that go way above the engineering and design limits of a particular action or in the case of the 45-70, try to compare the "old" Trapdoor level loads to modern higher pressure smokeless powder loadings and actions.
In keeping in line with the OP's original question - both the 45-70 and 450M in the confines of pressure limits of the correct action offerings - each has it's virtues and each has it's limitations. Just be careful. +1 What's good info from an experienced hand loader who carefully worked up a high performance load for his rifle, may be bad info for someone starting out, assuming too much as he loads the recipe. DF
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"Level of experience"...that is ALWAYS the problem...WHO are you speaking to...this being the WWW it is also "WHO" are you speaking to...there are as many "bad guys" out there learning "what the he** and why" as there are "good guys". This sport is inherently dangerous no matter WHAT level you're at. I always have those considerations running around the "little grey cells" when posting information...OR reloading...and a very BIG reason I don't post my loads other than the basic powders and other components...and all that stuff is already available and I have no control over how it is used. Besides what load works in my rifles doesn't mean it will work in yours and vice versa. One very good example of being "too experienced" and "OK in one rifle but NOT in mine"...I'm having a tough time getting a 1-8T 6mm-284 to shoot straight...I've had several previous 6-284's so it's no stranger to me...I've wasted 8 new necked down Norma 6.5-284's with loads that are below the middle of the range with ONE firing...the primer pockets expanded and one blew gas out from around the primer... and the bolt was locking almost to the point of digging out the soft hammer. Two good things...it is a strong Rem XP-100 action and I fitted the barrel with only 0.002" headspace...and I lapped the lugs to 95-100% contact and use bolt grease. This is with RL-22, RL-25 and Retumbo powders...I couldn't believe I was blowing primers with such slow powders in a 60 gr case. NO WAY should this be happening with new brass especially Norma and at loads 3-4 gr above Hornady and Sierra reloading manual beginning loads. I took the barrel off yesterday...make a chamber and 4" of the barrel casting. I already measured the base and shoulder with a light bullet, beginning load. The neck came up 0.285" which is WAY over SAAMI standard or 0.280" and the barrel at 0.242" which is about 0.0015" TOO SMALL, but which fits an old box of Nosler 95gr BT's which measure 0.242" OD...which is probably the cause of the high pressure with the Sierra 107gr and Hornady105's that measure ~0.2435" ...my other 6mm rifles all measure 0.243" to 0.2435" and all shoot normal loads into bugholes and NO strange pressures. The few I did chrono were showing 200fs more than manual loads for the same weight bullets and powders which gave me a clue, but I thought my chrono was acting up. I'm a very experienced, very long time reloader but I was committing every WRONG thing a beginner might make...TOO MUCH EXPERIENCE can cause you to do wrong things just because you discount items many times without thinking. I was seeing the danger signals, doing what needed to be done but untill I pulled the barrel I wasn't looking quite hard enough in the right direction....MY BAD for sure. Hopefully someone will read my confession and learn from it.    This can happen in ANY caliber or case...and is the reason I say start low and go slow...If I had started at the top end I might have had to really hammer out the bolt then send the action to Rem for a new bolthead and bolt lug reface. Luck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sounds like Murphy's Law caught you flat footed on that one.
Any idea how that combo came to be, i.e. loose neck, tight bore? When you're blind sided like that, you're caught. At least you had enough experience to know how to ultimately figure it out.
You make a good case for caution and playing by the rules, regardless of how many years we've been reloaders.
Thanks for sharing that one.
DF
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In a short barreled boltgun I'd consider the 450M.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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Photos from m3taco of his 450M/45-70 collection. Description below photo. DF ![[Linked Image]](http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/rush2830/450M45-70photos.jpg) Left to Right: 1. Marlin 1895 in .410ga with full choke 2. Marlin 1895M 450Marlin, ported and converted to pistol grip stock with Nikon 3-9x40 SlugHunter BDC scope and Wild West trigger kit - this is the one going with me for the PH course. 3. Wife's Marlin 1895G 45-70, ported with Nikon 3-9x40 SlugHunter BDC scope and Wild West Trigger Kit. 4. Marlin 1895G 45-70, non-ported with Wild West Trigger Kit. 5. Marlin 336 in 35Rem (NIB unfired). 6. Remington SPR22 DBL rifle in 45-70 with Nikon 1-4x20 scope. 7. Siamese Mauser (1st one) in 45-70 with Leupold 1-4x20, full floated heavy conture barrel and bedding action - This is the one that took the Mountain Zebra in the background. 8. Ruger 77 (tang safety) in 450M with fluted stainless barrel and Nikon 2-7x40 scope. 9. Custom pre-64 Win Mod 70, blueprinted action, Timney jewel trigger, stainless half octagon-half round barrel, barrel band sling swivel, pillar bedded barrel and action with front cross-bolt and Leupold 1-4x20 scope. Another view of guns on Zebra skin couch under magnificant set of horns. ![[Linked Image]](http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/rush2830/450M45-70photos2.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Taco,
I believe my favorite is your Pre-64 M-70.
Great collection.
DF
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DF:
Thanks for posting those for me.
Yea, that Mod 70 is VERY VERY sweet. The guy who built it told me what he had in it $$$ wise and what the guy who commissioned put down - nearly 3/4's. Why the guy never came back to get it had us both scratching our heads. The smith only wanted to get out the outstanding balance and I really did get it for a virtually a song. I wasn't that crazy about the laminate stock in the photos, but once I had it in hand...and shooting it and the way it performed on plains game, it has really grown on me. The crazy thing is, it was listed on GB twice with no bidders!!! Wish I was as lucky at the casino's!! (LOL)
The two SM's that are at the smiths should come back pretty sweet too. The one that is being fit for my wife has some very nice wood and might just be the nicest of the bolts - and she was deadly with it before it went to the smiths.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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We need photos of the SM's when you get them back from the smith.
I like the laminated stock. When you do photos of the SM's, put the M-70 in the mix for a closer look.
Thanks,
DF
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DF:
Will do - may be a while. The shop (Cole's Gun Shop) is known for it's work, but as most really good places they are not fast. Called them last week and so far (6 weeks in) they have shortened the one's barrel, filled (micro welded) the old iron sight holes in both barrels and have both stocks "soaking" to remove the old finishes. Still have the Gentry safeties to install, turn the barrels in the lathe, float and bed, Timney trigger on one (other already has one), front cross bolts on both, bed the scope bases, new recoil pads, re-blue and refinish. Long punch list to go but they should be very nice once done.
Why am I going through all this? Well, if you really want to take full advantage of the 45-70/450M capabilities (pressures/velocities) you only have several choices: a) Single shots. b) BLR's. c) Custom bolt action conversions d) Live on borrowed time by running over pressure loads in existing factory lever actions.
Another alternative is to move up in case capacity to 458 Win Mag/LOTT and load down with the retained ability to move up significantly above 45-70/450M capabilities.
For me....guess I just love the 45-70/450M. It has proven to me that it can and does accomplish and conform to the size of game I like to hunt at the distances I like to hunt. Within the next few years I hope to use it on Buf and El once the new solid bullets prove out on large body plains game. If I was going to make a career of African DG hunting I would be moving into the 458 Win Mag/LOTT territory - but I'm not, so I don't. Besides, I kind of like having the odd/unusual "stuff".
Kind of off track, but I remember reading a post/story some time ago where a guy started using his 45-70 for prairie dog hunting out west someplace. He said the PD's were getting wise to he and his buddies high velocity PD zappers and just popping their heads out of the hole so that just their ears could be seen. The poster/story teller said he happened to have his 45-70 in the truck with 405gr+ bullets and decided to try it as kind of a PD "bunker buster". Said he would aim so the bullet would hit just in front of the hole an inch or two and it would blow the PDs completely out of the holes - top half anyway. He claimed to have gotten really good with it out to several hundreds of yards. I thought it was good for a laugh. Anyway......
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taco
Do you have any experience with a Gibbs Summit converted Lee-Enfield to .45-70? I always wanted one, but they seemed to have dried up.
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Croldfort:
No, sorry I don't. My knowledge of the Siamese Mauser came about strictly by accident and they ended up tweaking my curiosity/desire for a 450 Marlin bolt action conversion.
Willing to bet someone on here has knowledge/experience with the Enfield conversions.
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I have to chuckle, another levergun forum gone to the bolt heads. Well, here is a moments reprieve, returning briefly to the topic at hand-leverguns.
Ultimately, no 45-70 fanatic will ever admit that the 450 is an improvement over "their" cartridge. VG point about the rim difference, with the nod going to the 450 again.
Similar is the constant rehashing on many forums of the evils of porting. For the record, the ports on the guide gun do a great job keeping the gun pointed in the right direction for fast follow ups, something that will not be acknowledged, either.
The guide gun is really nothing more than a further evolution of the short rifle. In levergun terms, the short rifle is NOT a carbine, it is in fact a full size rifle with a short barrel.
Finally, the 450 gives great credit to the 45-70. It would not exist without its parent round, yet it most certainly is an improvement.
And now, back to bolts...
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Mak:
Your probably right - though the OP's original question was 45-70 vs 450 Marlin and didn't specify in a lever action or even Marlin lever action vs BLR, it was asked in the "Big Bore Lever" forum,and yes, the responses, did ...expand beyond the "lever action" only realm.
Maybe on the positive side, this expansion of info it might have helped point out the LIMITS both cartridges have based on the ACTIONS they are used in and can maybe put up some "caution flags" for those who mistakenly think both Marlin actions are the same and decide to try hand loading 45-70 (in Marlin 1895 actions) to the same pressure levels as a 450 Marlin in the 1985M Marlin action. Nothing bad might not happen for a long time, but at some point continued use of over pressure loads will cause metal fatigue/failure and it could be very bad for the shooter and anyone standing near them.
I personally like my Marlins in both calibers. I must because I've been using them to hunt in the US and Africa and decided to take my 1895M over all my bolt guns in the upcoming PH course in South Africa in 10-days. I also like and appreciate the increased performance level and "pointy end" bullets bolts can safely take both cartridges to.
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I have to chuckle, another levergun forum gone to the bolt heads. Well, here is a moments reprieve, returning briefly to the topic at hand-leverguns.
Ultimately, no 45-70 fanatic will ever admit that the 450 is an improvement over "their" cartridge. VG point about the rim difference, with the nod going to the 450 again.
Similar is the constant rehashing on many forums of the evils of porting. For the record, the ports on the guide gun do a great job keeping the gun pointed in the right direction for fast follow ups, something that will not be acknowledged, either.
The guide gun is really nothing more than a further evolution of the short rifle. In levergun terms, the short rifle is NOT a carbine, it is in fact a full size rifle with a short barrel.
Finally, the 450 gives great credit to the 45-70. It would not exist without its parent round, yet it most certainly is an improvement.
And now, back to bolts... Yep... But needed to play it again.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
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.45-70 if one does not reload. If you do, whatever trips your trigger.
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Sorry in advance - this might be a little long.....
First, in the interest of full disclosure I own, shoot, hunt and reload for both. In 45-70 I have a #1, several Marlin 1895Gs and a GS - they are in various combinations of ported, non-ported, micro-grove and Ballard rifling. Three Siamese Mausers and one of the Remington double riffles. In 450M I have a ported and a non-ported 1895M, both ballard rifling. The ported one I converted to pistol grip, a Custom built pre-64 Win 70 and a Custom Ruger M77. I've hunted the US and African PG with nearly all of them.
Second, separate the cartridges from the rifle using it. While it is true both the 45-70 and 450M can be hand loaded to the same/similar pressures and velocities, how many guys if handed a 50K psi hand load for a bolt action would be willing to put it in a "Trapdoor" and pull the trigger? These and more are reasons reloading manuals as well as SAMMI have three different sets of standards/limits and loading data for the 45-70: Trapdoor - under 28K PSI, Modern Lever - under 36K PSI, Modern Rifle - under 50K PSI and 450 in a 1895 Marlin under 43.5K PSI and unlisted max in bolt actions or #1s. While some 45-70 brass manufactures might make the 45-70 cases a bit thicker, the standard for all 450M brass is thicker than the standard for the 45-70 brass.
Third, many people forget the strength of the ACTION is the limiting factor in the 45-70. From least to highest - Trapdoors/low-walls early levers, modern levers - Marlin, and modern rifles - #1's/high-walls, Browning levers and bolts. An awful lot of people think that all Marlin 1895 actions are the same - they are NOT. While many of the parts will interchange there is a difference in the metallurgy and receiver/barrel threads between the regular 1895 and the 1895M. The regular 1895's use a "U" shaped thread and the 1895M uses a "V" shaped thread. This allows the 1895M to have more threads and also leave the barrel and receiver a bit thicker.
The historical reason Hornady and Marlin teamed up to develop the 450 Marlin was to: a) take advantage of the capability of modern smokeless powders and push them to max safe levels b) make sure the "modern" high pressure cartridge couldn't be "accidentally" put in an old Trapdoor or low wall and hurt someone. Additionally, it was a way to allow those shooters who don't/didn't reload to get all the advantages of the "modern" loads. Remember, this was before anyone like Garrett, Corebon or Buffalo Bore was offering anything and all the normal manufactures were limiting factory loads to the lowest common denominator - Trapdoor - to limit liability.
Also historically, rimmed/flanged cartridges don't feed as well in bolt action as they do in levers, singles and break actions - that is why nearly all big bore double rifles use rimmed/flanged cases and all big bore bolt actions don't. Hornady may have also hoped that the "rimless" case would spur rifle manufactures to start cambering more bolt actions in 450M. A few did - Ruger in the M77, Styer in their Pro Hunter line and Browning in their box magazine fed BLR's.
All that said and back to the OP's original question...When it comes to lever action Marlins - I like the 450 over the 45-70 because the rimless 450M feeds through the loading gate better/easier and the actions feel like they cycle smoother. In fact, I am taking the 1895M with me in a few weeks to South Africa while I take a PH training/certification course. I am taking the lever 450 over my bolts or the double for a couple of reasons: a) Nothing except a full or semi auto cycles faster than a lever gun. There is a "timed" shooting practical you have to pass - three shots in 15 seconds, one each at 30, 20 and 10 meters at a 4 centimeter target - easy with the lever, pushing it with a bolt and damned hard with a double. b) I am comfortable with it as it has be used for PG on every trip to Namibia. I can load it SAFELY and within Marlin max pressure limits to just under 458 Win Mag levels with 350gr Hornady JFP and I have a combination that puts me into the legal muzzle energy for DG. c) Willing to bet nobody has done the PH cert course with a lever gun before.
For the "normal" guy who loves lever guns and doesn't reload, I would tip in favor of the 45-70 simply for the wide array and availability of commercial ammo. For those that love Marlin levers and reload I would tip back to the 450M simply because the higher pressure limits of the 1895M actions allow the reloader to really push bullets beyond the design limits of the standard 1895 action.
Ported vs Non Ported, I like the ported. Personally, I can't tell the difference in sound level when shooting them. Standing/sitting next to them HUGE difference. I think barrel length is a bigger factor. My longer barreled bolts don't make my ears ring nearly as bad without ear plugs. The Marlin ports do make a big difference in muzzle jump/rise. Off the bench with sandbags or off shooting sticks with heavy and full house loads the ported Marlins just about lay/stay on the bag/sticks and don't need to be held at the fore stock while the non-ported nearly jump off the bags/rest. Can't say I can feel much recoil reduction/difference and that is comparing identical rifles except porting with same loads same day/trip to the range one after the other.
For those that want to enter the 458 Win Mag territory in bolt actions, I would tip to the 450M. The reason being primarily the smoother feeding of the rimless case. It took a lot more "work" to get the Siamese Mausers to feed 100% reliably with Spitzers and wide nose flat points and they just don't cycle as smoothly. If it was just one I could limit it to just that one but it is the same with all three.
The above is not meant to take anything away from the 45-70 as I love them too. My wife shoots 45-70 in "her" Marlin and "her" Mauser - 300 gr Nosler Partitions (till I run out) at 2000fps and has taken several head of PG out to 130yds with one shot/one kill, and I have taken multiple head of PG with the 45-70 before I got my first 1895M. In the bolts, both calibers, I am running 350gr Horady JFP, 350 Barnes TSX and a 330gr banded solid at 2400 FPS (chrono'd) with zero over pressure signs. The 330 solid passed end to end through a medium bodied zebra last year and the TSX's will just about pass end to end through a gemsbok, and the 350gr JFPs will just about knock a gemsbok off their feet at impact inside 75yds. Also, use Cast Performance 405gr Wide Flat Points in the Marlins loaded to 1850 fps and they will pass through gemsbok on broad side shots and nearly end to end.
Just the opinions of one guy. started reading this thread out of curiosity, and the fact that I know a little about both cartridges as well as the rifles discussed and cussed. (lever guns and the Rugers). Considering the fact that 80% of the folks buying a big bore don't bother to reload; the .450 moves away from the pack. But of course that means little to folks that reload all the time. I also shoot the 38-55's and someother oddballs. The choice of powder is important to me, and the idea of using 5744 in both rounds is a plus in their favor. But with the .450 I can zing some rounds with different powders that just don't work all that well in the 45-70 case. But it's really a moote point as both have their qualities. That muzzel brake is a plus, and if you don't need one that's OK. In my old age I don't heal up as quickly. The .450 is clearly more accurate than the 45-70 in my book. But so is the .444, and lets face it there's not a lot of anything in North America that a .444 with 330 grain bullets won't be real hard on. Precision Shooting did a long road test with the .450, and 45-70, and the results probably made a lot of folks mad as hell. So be it! Now I think a #1 chambered in .450 would also put a lot of to bed in very short order, but that's another story. Presently I getting ready to start working up loads for the Speer 400 grain bullet in the .450 at somewhere close to 1900fps (more or less). I have starting loads and what is considered to be a max load from Accurate ((1700fps to 1930fps). Then I'll do the samething in a Marlin chambered in 45-70 (after I finally heal up!). But looking at this quagmire I think I rather have a Hi-Wall or a #1 chambered in .458 American, and be done with it all. The .444 is a round that just simply begs for better bullets out to 350 grains (jacketed). shoot those big bores, but be safe first!! gary
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95 |
I'd do the .458 American (.458x2") before the .450 Marlin. It'll push a 400 grain bullet to 2000fps, and cases are easy to build of factory .458 brass. There's also a wildcat that uses .348 Win. brass necked up to .458. A very good dangerous game round as well.
gary
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95 |
what you are saying is that with a WSM case you are pretty much looking at a rimless .450 Ackley! Never thought about that one, but alass I would not consider it in a lever gun.
gary
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,526
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Nor would I, the present offerings do the job quite well, and I was speaking of mainly what would I use in a bolt gun. I have always wanted a .45-70 bolt rifle, but read of some of the difficulties you could encounter building one, so didn't entertain it too much. And of the other two you mention (.458X2 and the .450 Alaskan), I just feel a stronger pull to the Alaskan. Neat looking case in a beautiful rifle.
But, I have played with wildcats enough that I like easily obtained cases and straightforward loading, hence the thought of a .450 Marlin bolt gun.
But, I'll probably never do it. I have a Guide gun, and it has enough power for what I want to do. I would probably go straight to an African caliber if I needed more ooommphhh.
Lord knows I don't want to get kicked any harder, it just ain't the fun it used to be. I've used a .308 for years and lately have been thinking about a .243....
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95 |
Nor would I, the present offerings do the job quite well, and I was speaking of mainly what would I use in a bolt gun. I have always wanted a .45-70 bolt rifle, but read of some of the difficulties you could encounter building one, so didn't entertain it too much. And of the other two you mention (.458X2 and the .450 Alaskan), I just feel a stronger pull to the Alaskan. Neat looking case in a beautiful rifle.
But, I have played with wildcats enough that I like easily obtained cases and straightforward loading, hence the thought of a .450 Marlin bolt gun.
But, I'll probably never do it. I have a Guide gun, and it has enough power for what I want to do. I would probably go straight to an African caliber if I needed more ooommphhh.
Lord knows I don't want to get kicked any harder, it just ain't the fun it used to be. I've used a .308 for years and lately have been thinking about a .243.... two wildcats that have gained my attention lately are: * a 30-40 Krag blown out to a tapered strait wall case for a .405 bullet. With a case length of 2.200", I think it would cycle thru a 336 action without much trouble. Be kinda like a "405 short", but doubt you'd ever know the difference with modern powders * a .444 marlin case sized to use a .375 bullet (tapered and shortened to the 2.156" long case length) gary
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,526
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 9,526 |
With the 30-40 based cartridge, the only time you would be giving something up would be with the heavier bullets at max pressure, but with the lighter bullets, it oughta do fine. And the .405 can handle some big critters.
Once you get to that size bullet at a good sectional density, moderate velocities will do quite well.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95 |
With the 30-40 based cartridge, the only time you would be giving something up would be with the heavier bullets at max pressure, but with the lighter bullets, it oughta do fine. And the .405 can handle some big critters.
Once you get to that size bullet at a good sectional density, moderate velocities will do quite well. I think I'm going to keep my eyes out for a good used .444 donor action, and build one in .405. I honestly think it would be easy to do, and tons of fun to shoot. gary
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Joined: Jun 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The 450 is as close to winchester 458 mag 2 1/2 At first I thought it was a 458x2-1/2
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,526
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 9,526 |
Yes it would be fun, and in a classy cartridge. I'd be saying "bully" alot..
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,526
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 9,526 |
The 450 is as close to winchester 458 mag 2 1/2 At first I thought it was a 458x2-1/2 I thought the .458 was 2.5" case length. The .450 Marlin runs 2.550" or so, Overall length.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 95 |
The 450 is as close to winchester 458 mag 2 1/2 At first I thought it was a 458x2-1/2 I thought the .458 was 2.5" case length. The .450 Marlin runs 2.550" or so, Overall length. the .450 Marlin case is 2.100" long, while the .458 Win mag is 2.500" long. The .458 American (or Barnes)is about 2.000" long, and there is a 2.250" long wildcat out there somewhere. The 2.55" length you quote is actually just under the max length the action will handle in length (don't remember the exact number at the moment). I found a couple nice donor actions yesterday afternoon for the .405 project, but the dealer and I have different view points on the price tag. I did speak with a buddy that would know, and he said to go with a 2" case length; if not a 1.937" case length. He also said to think about a rimmed (or flanged) case, but the .444 case would work pretty well. He's going to give me a handfull of 30-40Krag cases to experiment with. He told me if I wanted to do it in a true 40 caliber that he had a couple barrels that were octagon, and of very premium quality (these barrels are over 28" long and can be easilly cut back to what I want). So now I gotta think about wether or not I want a cast bullet gun or a true .405 (actually .411"). But the .444 case woud probably be an easier start. Now if I happen to do this with a Hi-Wall (Hi-Walls always have a sweet spot in my heart), I might make a bottle necked case off the Sharps case at about 2.125" in length. And I have the perfect candidate setting on the rack in absolute mint condidtion. But alas we're about $125 apart gary
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Joined: May 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Keep workin' on him.
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