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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I could never understand the theory behind the 147 Subsonic loads.
They were originally designed for use in suppressed MP5SD's. Frpm what I read, they kept increasing bullet weight until it went subsonic, which happened to be 147gr. That got rid of the sonic crack. The problem was that people saw other agencies adopting it, and didn't determine why. They just followed as copycats. From what I've read, the best 9mm loads are the Ranger 127 +P+, GD 124 +P, Fed 9BPLE 115 +P+. CB 115 DPX +P and regular CB JHP 115 +P.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The +P 147gr loads are running in the 1120-1175 fps range.
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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An MP5 SD is designed to "vent" gas off of standard 9mm ball (the NATO stuff is pretty hot) and make it leave the muzzle subsonic. If you run 147gr through one it really kills the energy.
Last edited by Take_a_knee; 08/13/11. Reason: spellin'
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I should have been more clear... What I meant was that I could never understand how anyone could believe that the 147 subsonic could be any more effective than a .38 Special.
And yes, the original rounds made by Winchester were for the MP5 but were mainly to increase accuracy I believe. They also needed the increased bullet weight to operate the delayed rollerblock system of the MP5 for reliable functioning...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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And yes, the original rounds made by Winchester were for the MP5 but were mainly to increase accuracy I believe. They also needed the increased bullet weight to operate the delayed rollerblock system of the MP5 for reliable functioning...
Bob Big BS flag waving here. H&K didn't need Winchester to "fix" the MP5 SD, that may have been some bullschit tale some sales guy told to sell ammo, that doesn't make it so. You can set a pepper popper so that GI 115gr will knock it down and 147gr won't, so you tell me which one is best?
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If the 115 will knock it down then so will the 147..
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Posts: 604
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I have found that the best 9mm SD ammo is (and I have never shot anyone so its all speculation) is the Top Drawer stuff. Cheap and effective.
WildithinkiwillshootsomeofftomorrowAlaska ��2002-2011
Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine t�tige Unwissenheit.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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There have been several LEO involved shootings in SW VA using the new Federal stuff (polymer tipped), in 9x19.
The results have been... definitive.
Personally, I carry Speer Gold Dots when I carry a 9mm.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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For legal reasons, hand loads may not be a good idea for personal protection. Attorney's for the recently departed/wounded perp. will get up and do a song and dance before a jury about those "dum-dum" bullets you prepared especially for his client, the "victim" of your aggressive tendencies... etc., ad nausium.
I think any good defense lawyer would agree...
Just a thought...
DF Not this schit again.... BS, on the whole.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
For legal reasons, hand loads may not be a good idea for personal protection. Attorney's for the recently departed/wounded perp. will get up and do a song and dance before a jury about those "dum-dum" bullets you prepared especially for his client, the "victim" of your aggressive tendencies... etc., ad nausium.
I think any good defense lawyer would agree...
Just a thought...
DF Not this schit again.... BS, on the whole. +1, VA
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
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Gotta say, even though the 147 seems to have it's followers, the best arguments I've heard have been for the lighter stuff. Cor-bon is known for making some of the best ammunition out there and their motto is (according to surplusammo.com) " At CORBON, they believe that velocity is king! Higher energies enhance bullet performance and increase stopping power." I have yet to see a manufacture say anything about the slow heavy rounds being the best or close to it even though they sell them. But, God knows I haven't read more than a speck of all the info out there.
This has been a very helpful topic. Thanks to everyone who has shared their opinions and the more the better.
- Michael
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The .45ACP 230 ain't no speed king, but it's damned sure a stopper.
CorBon has good products, and great marketing to those that believe "the fastest/deadliest/etc-est" has more to do with anything than does reliability, function, and accuracy.
The fact is, there are some supremely good ammunition options out there these days for just about every round, and the 9x19 has more than it's share of excellent options.
Pick one of the top-shelf versions based upon what functions FLAWLESSLY in your pistol, shoots well, and go with that one.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Put the bullet in the right place and I wonder if you'd notice the difference between 115, 124 and 147 grains.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I'm shooting corbon power-ball in my new diamondback 9mm. These new pistols occasionally have problems feeding and although it feeds federal 115 fmj perfect and it fed 7 rounds of gold dot fine i'm going with the round that feeds in anything and is also a good stopper. YMMV
Fred
Fourth Generation Border Rat
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Put the bullet in the right place and I wonder if you'd notice the difference between 115, 124 and 147 grains.
You wouldnt. Thats why I stick to Top Drawer WildthebestthereisAlaska ��2002-2011
Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine t�tige Unwissenheit.
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Stated this in the first post because I already understand that shot placement is everything.
"I know that pretty much all of the high grade hollow points will work if you do your job and make the shots count, but every advantage helps."
Just looking for the extra advantages and peace of mind knowing I have some of the best in my gun. This post has helped a lot with that. Ordered the 124 Rangers +p+ and some of the Cor-bon DPX's just because the place that had the bulk practice ammo that I wanted carried them and I figured why not.
- Michael
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
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For legal reasons, hand loads may not be a good idea for personal protection. Attorney's for the recently departed/wounded perp. will get up and do a song and dance before a jury about those "dum-dum" bullets you prepared especially for his client, the "victim" of your aggressive tendencies... etc., ad nausium.
I think any good defense lawyer would agree...
Just a thought...
DF Not this schit again.... BS, on the whole. +1, VA As always.. Complete bullchit.
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Something else to consider is reliability. Agency wide I saw a lot of functioning problems with the G26 that I did not see in the G19 or G17 when using 147 Hydrashok. Switching to the 124+p hydrashok was an immediate solution.
I know limp wristing was a strong factor in some of the malfunctions but it was a marked increase in reliability by increasing slide speed. In 9mm in general I favored the 124gr at 1200fps regardless of brand or style.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I could never understand the theory behind the 147 Subsonic loads.
.38 Special 158 +P LHPs don't exactly have the stellar reputation for tactical penetration nor immediate incapacitation among street officers who have been in actual gun fights with them. So if the average velocity of these rounds from a 4" barrel is in the 900-950 fps range what exactly is the difference between that and a 9mm (.355) at 950+-fps from the average 9mm handgun......
The 9mm subsonics being jacketed and having a smaller meplat over penetrated in soft tissue and underpenetrated hard cover. One of my friends saw an expended bullet recovered after a gunfight and said it could have been reloaded....
I remember making the statement right after the wound ballistics committee report came out that "now we just have a 15 shot .38 Special"....and that is what it exactly turned out to be. If it was as great as the committee said it was going to be every LE department in the nation would still be using it....few today are. Somewhere around I have an article with an interview of the Chief Range Officer for the FBI being questioned as to the 9mm/147 and why the FBI was no longer using it. He stated something to the effect that "it hadn't worked quite as effectively as predicted"...no $hit $herlock....
In .35 caliber guns give me all the velocity that can safely run and still control the weapon. The .357 Magnum/125 JHP is the standard that every other self-defense cartridge compares itself to and the 147s have proved lacking over and over again....
Bob
again, bob, you beat me to the punch, great minds must think alike. I have always thought the 147grain bullet in the 9mm was just a hi cap .38special. As to another poster commenting on those barnes bullets, they are truely nasty little mothers. I obtained a few in different calibers as loaded ammunition and think they are one of the nastiest if that is the right word bullet out there these days. A few years ago i was talking to this long term F.B.I. guy, who also subbed as an instructor in virginia for them, and he pulls out this little auto in an ankle holster and shows me some ammo. 115gr 9mm running at 30% OVER saami specs. Took me a while to find some, but i did. And certainly not to be fired in every 9mm out there. What he really had was a .357sig in the 9mm
Last edited by RoninPhx; 08/16/11.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Tracker
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I just don't sweat it. Use any JHP from a major manufacturer that you can trust. The difference from one to the other will never matter. I tend to lean toward heavier bullets, never going lighter than 115 grain. Usually like a 124, but occasionally pick a 147. I've treated a lot of shooting victims, bullet has never been a factor unless you're talking gimicky rounds; that's why I say stick with the major manufacturers...they're not going to bet their reputation on gimicky bullets. This. Masad Ayoob has a great article on this in a recent issue of either Guns or Handgunner. Today's self defense ammo is very good. Find one that functions perfectly and shoots well in your handgun and go with it. My CZ75 shoots lighter bullets lower, so I narrowed my choices significantly when I found 147s shoot to point of aim. Expat
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
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