Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 270 Grain TSX - still needs work

I was just reading the love fest for the 270 grain TSX in a previous post and thought I'd share some observations from my use of the bullet on my recent trip to Zimbabwe. When I got back, I emailed Barnes the following:

I just returned from a 21 day safari where I used your 270 grain TSX in my .375 H&H as my primary load. The load itself was 77.5 grains of Vihtavouri N540 which chronographed an average of 2795 fps in my chronograph.

The first animal I shot was a zebra which was quartering away at 120 yards. I hit him high in the shoulder, which broke the spine and exited out the neck. The entrance wound and the exit wound were exactly the same size. My PH actually asked me if I had accidentally loaded a solid into my rifle. Doing a postmortem on the carcass, it appeared that the bullet opened up, but lost all four petals before exiting.

The next animal shot was a large eland. My first shot was deflected by a branch and hit the animal sideways. Luckily it hit the spine and had enough energy to knock the animal down. I placed two finishing shots into the front shoulder, quartering towards me at about 25 yards. I recovered one of these bullets, all four petals had sheared off.

I shot a kudu at approximately 200 yards. The bullet struck the shoulder and blew right through leaving a quarter sized exit wound.

I shot a large lion. He was directly facing me at 18 yards. The bullet entered through the breast bone, then penetrated the length of the body, eventually coming to rest under the skin just in front of the hind legs. The bullet opened up, but did shed one petal, which is what caused it to veer off to the side.

All in all, these bullets proved effective in killing game. But by the same token, I'm not completely satisfied with their performance. With the exception of the kudu, both the recovered bullets as well as the wound channels showed that the bullets were shedding their petals. I know it's hard to engineer bullets to perform over a wide range of velocities, but the 375 H&H is the slowest of the .375's out there. I've used Barnes Bullets since the original x-bullet came out and have always been impressed with your products, but I think this particular bullet needs a little redesign to strengthen it.



I didn't mention that I also shot a buffalo with the bullet that we didn't recover. I think that was more to do with my shooting than the bullet performance.

If I were going to shoot a giraffe, this is not the bullet I'd chose unless I was going to take a head shot. If the petals shear off, the shank won't have enough SD to penetrate to the vitals.


Pete

"if the petals shear off it wont have enough sec. density to penetrate to the vitals" That doesnt make much sense to me if they come off the frontal area is reduced and the tsx have a pretty long shank. It should penetrate well even though I understand it has lost some weight.

Thanks for the info talentrec but, Dang-it, I'm pushing this bullet to 2985 fps in a 375 AI, even though its a wonderfully accurate load, thats not gonna work.
Maybe the new 250 gn. TTSX will be a little tougher, or still better, maybe I should go back to my old standby, the 300 grain Swift A Frame.

Gunner

I disagree with that statement. From your reports it sounds like the TSX performed very well for you. I contend those petals did a lot of internal damage whilst in the process of shedding the petals. Still you sound like a very experienced hunter and thanks for the detailed report. jorge

There is no problem with the petals breaking loose on occasion.

What are the options?

Cup and core is not in the same league on any level for any big game.

Bonded core way under penetrates in almost any situation

Partitions lose over 30% of the weight. The TSX Loses petals and in some ways works a bit like a Partition. However they are a monolithic solid after the loss, not a cup and core like the partitions are.

A TSX may lose a petal, it may lose several petals. But they drive on through like a solid after that.

Given the various types of failure possible with all sorts of projectiles. The TSX when the shooter assumes some sort of failure is left with a solid, not a crumbled pile of bits, with under penetration or swerving way off course internally.

If your aim is true, the TSX will drive right into what you hit with more penetration then any design made except a monolithic solid, petals or not. Put another way, if the TSX does not satisfy your needs, then only a monolithic solid will out penetrate it, with no chance of any expansion. If you choose a Bonded core bullet, then your not even in the game with similar penetration as the TSX.

Once people get in their minds that the TSX is not a true definition of an expanding bullet, but rather an expanding solid, things will become more clear. If you want to look further into SD then calculate what an short fat 300grain bullet's SD is from an expanded Swift A Frame upon impact. That high SD is only effective before that soft bonded tip touches the fur. That bullet will be 3/4" diameter and very short in length after impact. Calculate that design for SD and then compare to the .375dia recovered SD from a TSX without petals. I can save you the trouble the bore diameter 375 without petals will be double the SD of the 3/4" diameter bonded bullet!

Just do a quick check in your Reloading manual, look at the SD difference between a 180 grain 30/06 bullet and a 180 grain 44 mag bullet. See the SD value in those two and then you will see the way this works with a huge mushroom from a bonded bullet.

The TSX will out penetrate any soft point made with regularity,

A monolithic solid will out penetrate a TSX with regularity

So the TSX falls somewhere right smack between the bonded core and the monolithic solid, what more would you ask of a bullet then this?

Hi Pete, I'm a bonded cup can core fan (been using Nosler Partitions for over 30 years), and now some Swift A-Frames and Woodleighs in my 375 Weatherby. I do use the 570g TSX in my 500 Jeffery, but have only shot two animals to date with it. A mule deer at about 225 yards, and a 450 lb feral hog at 8 feet. Both, as you would expect, dropped dead right on the spot. In both cases the TSX opened up well (I could tell by the large exit wound). In neither case was the bullet recovered, the 570g TSX went through the hog's brain, blew out his neck vertebrae, went through his lungs, paunch and exited it out his left thigh. When we gutted him, just fluid came out. It kind of liquified his internal organs. Sorry if that's a bit graphic. I too was concerned about the TSX expanding reliably. I think because I'm shooting the 570g TSX at 300 fps faster than it was designed for (it was designed for the 500 NE), and because the hollow portion of the hollow point is just so damn big in diameter, that I'm getting reliable expansion. Penetration is not an issue, this bullet just penetrates forever.

Recovered from lion-under 50 yards shot(right)



Recovered from gembsbok-over 350 yards(left)

When I started with this bullet I wondered if it was up to the hype.
It is. Based on my experience i have seen it perform on springbuck at 450 yards and showed signs of expansion.
I am not sure what more a bullets needs to do over this range of performance.
I would love to hear others actual reports on buffalo.
I am actually thinking of loading some down to use as a casual load for deer and hog where I get 350 yard performance at 100 yards.
The question I ask myself is do I need a 300 mag anymore?
I used it on an elk and it really proves itself as an all around combo.
Mine launch at 2790FPS

I'm not disputing that this bullet is a killer; I killed a lot of game with it. But here's the problem: if this bullet sheds all four of its petals (which one of mine did) the retained weight is 177.4 grains. This gives you a sectional density of .180 (roughly). When you consider that the bullet is going to be slowed down once it hits (let's say by 500 fps) would anyone here shoot a giraffe with a 180 grain .375 solid traveling at 2300 fps?

Personally, I think that this bullet has the potential to be the perfect bullet for hunting everything that walks the planet. You can push it fast enough in a .375 H&H to have easy hold over out to 400 yards. It has enough mass to penetrate anything that you'd shoot an expanding bullet into, provided that it holds together. That's the problem...this bullet doesn't hold together, at least not the batch that I got.

For the cost, I still think that the TSX is the best bang for your buck. I started using them in my big bores because I figured that they'd perform just like Northforks, but for half the cost. The only difference is that I have recovered 300 grain Northforks that weigh 294-297 grains. If I use TSX's on my next safari in my .375, they'll either be the 300 or 350 grain bullets. That way, if the petals break off, hopefully the shank will still have enough mass to penetrate. I think the 270 grain bullet is great for anything under 1,000 pounds, but I'd be careful shooting anything bigger than that with it.

Pete

Gunner500-

I've never heard of a Swift A-Frame failing to hold together. They might be a little hard for the small stuff, but they're definitely hard enough for the big stuff!

The Swift Aframe will fall well short on penetration compared to a TSX even with all the petals missing. That 3/4" A frame mushroom slows and stops easily. I have recovered dozens of the 270 grain Aframes from Wildebeest and Zebra on broadside shots. I've not recovered a single TSX from either of those shot from 25-200 yards.

Giraffe is very thick skinned, by a huge margin thicker and much harder to penetrate then any buffalo that ever lived in modern times.

I've shot several, right under the ossicone on either side. The biggest I have killed was with a 165gr TSX from a 30/06. Shooting in the chest( heart lung) I have seen several killed with solids from a 30/06, and 300 grain Aframe, and 300 grain woodleigh out of 375HH. When you consider that the 270TSX will out penetrate a 300grain bonded core bullet by probably 100% then there should be no question to the results if the shot is placed right.

That has been the bigger problem for most hunters. Giraffe are not built like any other animal you will ever harvest, study the anatomy and you will do just fine with a 270TSX, most choices will fall far short of that performance.

JorgeI, If you read the last sentence of the OP you will read the quote the I put in quotations. I dont know how to paste his quote but I agee with you that we both disagree with the OP's concern of what the TSX will do if the petals are missing. Understand now what I was trying to say?
To the OP I agree with you that I expect my 270 TSX to hold all petals except in rare events when big bones are hit. I shoot the 270 TSX out of my 375 H&H and used it to take a kodiak bear a few months back. So I do have confidence in the combo and am a little suprised by the percentage of recovered bullets that prove petals were lost and the other instances where it looks like they were lost.

10-Roger talentrec, The SAF is a wonderful bullet, since I'm runnin' the 375 AI, I may look into the 300 gn. TSX as well, I can push the 300 gn SAF's to 2825 w/ N-204 powder in my rifle, the 300 gn. TSX at that speed might just be the ticket.

Gunner

Talentrec

Something doesnt make sense here, even with blown petals TSX's usually retain 75-85% of their weight. I would expect a 270gr .375" TSX with blown petals to weight no less than 200grs, are you sure of that 177gr weight?

Plus your analogy of shooting a giraffe with a 180gr 375" bullet @2,400fps is just not realistic. The 270gr TSX looses the weight INSIDE of the animal, destroying internal organs and blood vessels.I think that the performance you describe is spot on what a TSX should do. I dont use TSX's because i hunt primarily deer but if i went to Africa it would almost be an easy choice....

eyeguy: I think we are in complete agreement and to further expand on the light-for-caliber TSXs (270v300 in the 375 and 350v400 in the 416s), I had the pleasure of speaking with Connie Brooks a few years ago when the TSX first came out. She told me that both her and her husband in addition to a few others, extensively tested them in Africa and on Cape Buffalo specifically and found the lighter TSXs driven at higher velocities would produce more dramatic effects on the buffalo. This concept was later validated more by Layne Simpson and the 416 Weatherby where he found the lighter 350gr/416 TSXs when driven insanely fast(!) would absolutely electrify buffalo.

Were I to hunt buffalo with the 416 or 375 again, I'd drop down to the 270/350 respectively and drive the TSXs as fast as I could. jorge

Thanks for this info....I was wondering why the op was worried about using a .375 with 270 tsx. The giraffes I saw looked almost delicate, even if very large, and I would never have thought that they were as tough as say a buffalo or even a wildebeast.

Somewhere I have a scientific paper where the authors took dozens of measurements in different places on 2 or 3 giraffe. If I recall correctly, the skin was 18mm or 19mm thick over the ribs (and I think the animals were fairly young too, presumably old ones would be more). The paper had a very neat "map" of the variation in skin thickness (deep dermis, superficial dermis, and total dermis) shown as isolines on a giraffe silhouette.

I haven't seen any such data on buffalo skin thickness (I think I should go to Africa to get some... hey, that reminds me, I need to apply for a grant! ), so I will take JJ's word for it.

I doubt there is a perfect bullet, but (like JJ) a friend who is a Professional Hunter in Africa says that he and his colleagues are pretty happy if a hunter shows up to hunt any species and they are toting a .375 H&H loaded with Barnes X/TSX bullets.

John

For me the perfect bullet would be a combination of the Woodleighs and the A-Frames. The front end would expand easier like a Woodleigh soft point, but with a full A-Frame enclosure of the back 60% of the bullet (no hole in the bottom like an A-Frame, no hole in the top of the A-Frame like the newer Noslers). A premium bullet should expand out to 600 yards when it's moving at 2000 ft/sec or less and hold together and penetrate on tough animals like buffalo (90% weight retention) at 15 feet when it's moving at 2700 ft/sec or more. When a bullet expands to twice it's diameter, it's bullet construction, sectional density and velocity that keeps it penetrating.

The function of a bullet is to kill. Check your quote again. They proved effective! What else do you want, pretty recovered slugs for magazine photos? They killed.

Nosler Partitions have been shedding their front halves and killing game for more than a half century. Lost petals are shrapnel. I love the TSX in my 9.3 X 62, and every other caliber I shoot from .250 Savage to .458.

Pete, have a cold brew and enjoy your success. Sounds like a great hunt, so don't sweat minutia.

jorg that is interesting....IIRC Ross Seyfried used the 335-350 gr 416 bullets(X, Jensen,etc) extensively on buffalo from his 416 Remington back in 90's(IIRC),reporting great results.He wrote this up in Guns and Ammo.

I also know some of Bill Steigers Bitterroot clients did likewise with a run of 335 gr BBC driven to 2700-2800 from 416 Rigby's.

I have found only one such "failure" of a tsx or x for that matter in the decades I have been using them. That tsx bullet had three petals missing, but a frontal area of .589". It had traversed left shoulder and rt humerous and was found under the skin on the right leg skin on a big dead gemsbok. I think for $1 a bullet I am satisfied with both failure rate and performance. I have a box of 300gr banded solids that look nice, but have never been used on game.

This fall I plan on using a box of 300gr Speer on bear and deer just to get rid of them. I have found the tsx to be incredibly accurate in any calibre, but too expensive for significant practice.

The reason there are so many bullets available is because we all have our favourites.