Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Weatherby factory ammunition, 117 gr round nose soft point, WHY???

Good thread revival, especially for a guy that's got a 1950ish Savage 99 in .250 on the way.

Might want to stock up on those RN bullets. They seem to be dropping off production lists at an increasing rate.

Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading Vol II(1973)

"The 1 in 12" twist used in Weatherby Mark V 257's will not stabilize the newest Hornady
25 caliber bullet, the 120 gr. Hollow Point. The 117 gr. Round Nose, however, shoots
very accurately in the 257 WM and is best for big game."

Sometimes, big time gunwriters should listen, instead of theorizing.

I'll be sure to tell a friend, who lives an hour away. He shoots 120-grain Nosler Partitions in his 1-12 twist .257 Weatherby, and has always been puzzled why they won't shoot any better than 3/4".

Of course you and your friends know more about Hornady bullets and factory ammunition than the factory testers themselves.

They keep making them because the round nose bullets bust through the brush better! JOKE!

Wby also used 1 in 12 for the 270, 7mm and 300 Wbys.

Back in the early/mid 1960s when I got into reloading a Sydney gunsmith, Don Black, was also a barrel maker and made 270 Winchesters with 1 in 12 so as to get consistent accuracy with 100 grain Hornadys. Bullets were simply not as good then These days a 100 grain Hornday will shoot spot on at top velocity from an accurate 270 Wby or 270/300 Winchester and 1 in 10 twist.

I think in those earlier days the 1 in 10 in 270s and problems with 100 grainers led to the introduction of the 110 grain bullets.

As a side note my general experience (on paper) is light bullets for the twist at long range, 500 yards, tend to show more wind drift than should be the case.

Also remember that a 1 in 10 twist in 243 is much slower than 1 in 10 in 30 calibre.

I think the slow twist in 243 and especially the 1 in 14 in 224 calibres makes rifles easy shooters and more likely to group different loads, different barrel fouling conditions to the same point.

A point of reference for you guys regarding older (German made and before) 257 Weatherbys. The 100gr TTSX will NOT stabilize in my older (1:12) MKV Weatherby, but shoots superbly in both my 1:10s. That is the reason for that short, stubby 117 Hornady RN, so it could shoot in the original Weatherbys. Today, we have MUCH better bullets and that 117RN really has little purpose in that flat shooting rifle in my opinion anyway.

I'm glad I found this thread. I recently acquired a German 1971 Weatherby .257 with the 1:12 twist. I have read quite a bit here and elsewhere about which bullets to reload with this twist. I am new to reloading as well. Flat based bullets seem to have a general consensus. This is good to hear about the 120-grain partition. I am going to start with the 100-grain partition and 100-grain interlock. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Rick

The 100 gr Interlock and Partition shoot GREAT in the 1:12. That said, 100gr TTSXs WILL NOT. They are simply too long and will not stabilize. 71.3gr RL-22 (or MRP) Fed215 primer and u are good to go!

Thanks JorgeI. I have RL-22 and IMR 7828. I can't seem to find any starting loads for the 7828. The Hodgdon site lists 73 grains max. Hornady has data for 7828SSC with 66.8 grains max.
I'm not sure where to go from here with the IMR 7828.

I easily attain 3700 (26" barrel) with 22 or MRP. Never tried 7828.

They still make 'em because people buy 'em.

They'd make a round ball load if enough folks wanted them enough to pony up for them.

This principle explains a lot of the marketing "mysteries" out there. The reverse also explains why even good stuff sometimes falls off the edge of the Earth, which is why you can't find brass for your .358 Snotstomper.

Try as I will, I cannot, however, explain the .30 TC.

kroo88,

The 120-grain Hornady isn't any longer than the 120-grain Partition, so will stabilize in the same twists.

However, as was recently batted around in another thread, bullet stability depends on several factors, including elevation and temperature. Also, some rifle barrels don't have exactly the twist that's advertised. In fact, another Campfire member recently PM's me about a a .270 Winchester he's had for years that has a twist of 1-11", and I once owned a Savage 99 in .250-3000 that turned out to have a 1-15 twist. These sorts of aberrations aren't as common these days as they were back when when sine-bar cut-rifling machines were the industry standard, but they still can happen, especially in older rifles.

Even if a certain bullet will stabilize, say, 90% of the time in a 1-12 twist, bullet companies prefer to suggest a twist that will always stabilize that bullet, rather than have it not shoot well in a few rifles, whether because of atmospheric conditions or a slightly slower than nominal twist.

However, this does NOT mean the same bullet won't work fine in the same twist at, say, 4500 feet above sea level, which is where my friend lives. In fact, it will stabilize at even lower elevations, but not down at sea level, or close to it. Thought it would if the twist was even slightly faster, even 1 turn in 11.5 inches.

On the other hand, the 100-grain TTSX won't stabilize in MOST conditions in a 1-12 twist, even when started at 3500 fps in a .257 Weatherby Magnum. This is because it's even longer than a 120-grain Hornady Spire Point or Nosler Partition. But it should stabilize at over 8000 feet in elevation in most temperatures, and at 10,000 feet at about any temperature. But it sure isn't going to stabilize in any part of Florida, where Jorge lives.

But bullet makers can't say, "Will stabilize in 1-12 twists in high mountains," or "Don't shoot this bullet in 1-12 twists in Florida." Instead they have to keep things simple, by suggesting a twist that will work in ALL conditions.

But all of this is beside the point. Neither the 120-grain Hornady or 120-grain Nosler Partition existed back when Roy Weatherby introduced the .257 Weatherby commercially in 1945. In fact, the only one of the major American custom bullet companies that existed then was Speer, and at the time they were making varmint bullets with fired .22 rimfire jackets. Hornady, Nosler and Sierra all started up during the four years after the war, and even then none made .25 caliber bullets heavier than 117 grains for a number of years, because that was the traditional "heavy" weight in .25.

Even after Nosler started making 115 and 117-grain .25's, Weatherby didn't load them in any of their ammo for several years, because it took Roy Weatherby quite a while to grasp that tougher bullets were necessary for his cartridges to really perform. When he started his company during the war, his entire hunting experience consisted of a few deer, and while his first African safari in 1948 started to open his eyes, which was the same year John Nosler started selling his bullets publicly.

Even then, it took Weatherby a while to start loading Partitions in his ammo, and I seriously doubt whether he cared much about bullets heavier than 100 grains in the .257 anyway. His favorite was always the 100-grain, which he used on animals as large as rhinoceros, because it was FAST, and Weatherby was always about FAST. He probably offered the 117-grain load because some people wanted it, and he had a working relationship with Hornady.

And yes, back then just about every 117-grain .25 caliber bullet was either round-nosed or somewhat blunt. Thanks to .25-35, .250 Savage and .257 Roberts ammo, that's what people expected. Sharper bullets could easily have stabilized in the 1-10 twist of the Roberts, but Ned Roberts apparently found that round-nosed bullets at moderate velocities were more accurate--which was probably true back then, when most bullets weren't nearly as well-balanced as they are now. So Roy offered a load with 117 roundnoses, for several reasons. But I doubt the original 117-grain Nosler Partition wouldn't have stabilized in a 1-12 twist, no matter the conditions.

GREAT POST!And regarding the altitude, I did not know that John! Edited to add, regarding the 100gr Hornady (or TTSX) in the 257 Weatherby, nothing, but nothing kills deer faster, at least in my experience. Not a single one, not ever, has taken a step. j

John, Thanks for that little write up. Some very informative history on the .257 Bee. I'm kind of digging the "old school" approach. Slower twist, shorter barrel, simple effective bullets and dead critters. I like it, even if my Bee is "slow"!

Rick

Jorge,

100-grain bullets are certainly effective in the .257 Weatherby, which is why Roy liked 'em. I used them exclusively during the first few years I tried the .257, and had similar experiences--except the Tipped TSX hadn't appeared yet, and one "plain" TSX didn't expand. Had the same experience with one from a .257 Roberts, but after the tipped model came out havent had that happen again.

However, the plain 100-grain TSX killed like lightning most of the time. I vividly remember one Wyoming mule deer buck Eileen took my first .257 Weatherby, because the scope had gone nuts on her rifle. The buck was a chunky 3x3, probably 2-1/2 years old, the kind we both prefer for a meat deer, about 160 yards away, and she put the bullet right behind the shoulder, halfway up. The neck thing we saw were four hooves waving weakly in the air above the sabegrush!

In the past few years, however, I've been using heavier bullets, mostly the 120-grain Partition, partly just to broaden my experience, but now because they also work extremely well. The load I use gets 3300 fps in my NULA, which has a 24" barrel, and aside from one mule deer where the bullet apparently deflected on a sagebrush twig, everything has dropped just as suddenly as with 100-grain bullets.

Thanks, John. The only difference in post-mortems between the Hornady and TTSX is the Hornadys hardly, if ever punch all the way through and exit. They just expand HARD, inside the animal and do cause more damage that the TTSXs. Both rounds seem to "electrify" deer, I mean they just drop!

JB, Took a friend hunting last Sat. and he showed up with a "right off the showroom floor" 722 Roberts and part of a box of old Rem 117 RN's. He said he has a box of brass from the rifle and I figured I could jigger them w/25-06 dies to partly neck size and load them up for him. I have part of a box of the Horn. 117 RN's and was wondering if I should simply load them to factory (old Speer #7 says 2,560 fps) levels or up them a bit. I have also got 2 boxes of 120 NPT's which would go if it were mine. Thanks-Judd

I would load the 117 Hornadys a little warmer than 2560. They're pretty hard bullets (as some people find when they load them in the .25-35) but 2700-2800 would work fine.