Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB, my 7x57 expander ball is driving me batty

I have a Redding 7x57 FL die that isn't responding to any fixes.

Using neck-sorted, once-fired Remington brass, the die itself sizes the brass very straight, so it's clearly the expander that's the problem.

Expanding as a separate step doesn't work, either with the die tight or loose in the press. In line with the advice on the case lube thread, I tried brushing the case necks with either RCBS case lube or Imperial sizing die wax, but neither seems to make a difference.

I've spun the decapping rod in my Casemaster and tried bending it slightly, but it looks as if the ball itself isn't concentric with the rod. With the working end of the Casemaster touching the top edge of the expander ball, I see about .003" runout. Is that likely to be the problem?

Johnny Buffalo might be chasing critters, so I'll drop in my take on this.

You might try one of Reddings tungsten/carbide floating sizing balls. For the 7X57, it would be Kit No. 49283. The t/c ball floats on the expander and centers itself on the case neck as it exits the die. Literally ALL of my Redding sizing dies are so-equipped.

Having shot prolly a million rounds, I can honestly say I've seen lots of relatively crooked ammunition shoot awfully straight.

Personally, I am a nut on case neck concentricity and sort every case I shoot to .001".

Ammo runout is something I chase only if I am having trouble getting the rifle to shoot and eliminated several other potential causes.

Schit like this can drive a normally-sane man crazy.

Steve

Ditto Steve's remarks on the Redding carbide sizing balls. -Al

Loose the expander. Get a seperate decap die and have the size die honed out by Redding to the amount you specify. Basically a custom "non" bushing. Makes great straight neck.

Alan

Thanks, all. I've ordered the carbide expander ball.

I also tried the expander ball from my Redding .280 Rem. FL die, which makes very straight cases. It pulled cases just as crooked as the one that came with the 7x57 die.

Then, while waiting for the 7mm expander ball to arrive, I decided to work on some .30-06 cases. My Redding .30-06 die also makes very straight cases, and I immediately noticed that the expander ball pulls through much more easily than the one in the 7x57.

This reminded me that several years ago, I had a similar problem with my .375 H&H, and sent the die back to Redding with some fired cases. Along the line of GSSP's suggestion, the folks at Redding said the die was sizing the necks more than necessary and reamed it out a little. It still uses the expander ball but works perfectly now. So if the carbide ball doesn't solve the problem, I guess I'll be going that route.

dogzapper or others,
Now this is not the same as a neck sizer bushing right?

"I also tried the expander ball from my Redding .280 Rem. FL die, which makes very straight cases. It pulled cases just as crooked as the one that came with the 7x57 die."

That would make me think that you might have cases with uneven neck wall thickness, because by switching the expander ball, you have eliminated any out-of-roundness.

It could also mean that the die is out of round or off-center where it is drilled and tapped for the de-capping rod.

If you only substituted the ball from the .280 die, and not the entire stem, the problem could be with an off center stem.

Try the entire stem and re-sizer ball from the .280 die and see if the cases come out straight.

I am not very familiar with Redding dies, having only owned one set. My experience is with RCBS dies, and I am assuming that the Redding and RCBS dies and stem operate about the same way. I did not say interchangable, but operate.

1234567,

That's a great point. I'll try the .280 stem tonight. (My cases are already sorted for neck thickness, so that shouldn't be the problem.)

Thank you!

I have a Redding FL die in 257 Wby that does the same thing. Redding sent a decap assembly with a diff dia exp, but it didn't help a bit. Same as you say, necks with concentric thickness, but terrible RO after the exp pulls through. Lube didn't help a bit. I put a 25-06 exp in a 270Wby die and use it to expand after I size with the FL 257Wby die. They come out straight this way. Redding asked me to send the die back for inspection. I have a feeling the tapped portion of the die is the culprit.

You'll run into a dud die once in a while. I've had 3 RCBS dies and one Forster that gave terrible RO as well despite adjustments.

It's hard to beat a Lee collet and Redding body die combo for straight cases.

loder

Uneven annealing causes really bad runout too. Did you anneal the cases? Even heating is critical.

Another idea is to raise the expander ball upward and close to the neck area of the sizing die as possible. The higher the expander ball, the more support the sizing die gives the case during expanding.

Hard case necks require a lot of tension to pull the case over the expander ball, which can cause or contribute to runout (stretching too). If you hear a sound like "Squawk!" when pulling a case over the expander ball, either the brass is too hard, or the inside of the neck improperly lubricated, or both. If yours pull hard, anneal them, then lubricate inside the necks with powdered graphite.

Big Redhead,

No, these were once-fired cases.

First of all a standard sizer squeezes the case neck down way below bullet size...

THEN...dragging an expander ball through a small neck ALWAYS squirrels things up no matter WHAT you do unless you start with measuring your chamber neck and chamber...then match the sizer to fit with a minimum amount of squish and take that expander ball and use it for a fishing weight. The only expander balls I use are NOT BALLS, they are elliptical shaped or tapered rods...and unless you clean/polish the inside of EACH case neck with a bit of steel wool on a brush running in a drill motor AND use Imperial wax on another brush to slick up the neck inside, or dry lube, you will keep spinning your tires...FOREVER.

The BEST thing you can do is to buy a Redding or Wilson FL bushing type die...measure a fired case OR better yet have a chamber cast made so you know, exactly, the neck OD...THEN buy a bushing that reduces the neck ID 2-3 thou smaller.

Go to a benchrest forum and read how those boys do their case and follow suit. You don't have a benchrester but what they do to their cases is part and parcle of those small groups they shoot.

You are already working with a factory chamber unless you had the rifle custon built and can get the dimensions from the reamer that was used to cut the chamber...which means you're chasing after butterfly's...no diss or flame intended...I did the very same things 50-60 years ago.

You need to FL size your cases with the sizer screwed down 1.5 turns past where it hits the top of the shell holder at full stroke...NO BREAK OVER...a solid stop against the die bottom at the top of the stroke. This will center the case and(most of the time) remove any case runout. If it doesn't then you have problems in the dies or press.

I would also put away the brass you are messing with right now, buy some Lapua, Norma or RWS brass and the Redding FL sizer die at least and start fresh and right to begin with.

You can also toss the expander ball or grind it down, use the "dummy" primer pin holder that usually comes with the bushing dies or buy one from Redding or use a 6.5 expander or smaller so you DON'T touch the neck, THEN use a Sinclair expander rod to open up the neck...Hornady uses an elliptical expander and Lee sizers have a very nice taper to the expander rod...but for gosh sakes if you are going nutz over case neck runout get rid of the "button" and use one or a combination of the others...I do it all the time when I run into difficulties with a particular rifle or set of dies.

I have a set of Hornady, Lee, RCBS and Redding standard and bushing dies for many of my shooters...AND a Wilson straight line seater...plus sliding chambers for my Forster Ultra seater...each is used for it's particular strong points. I like Hornaday sizers and elliptical expanders but the seater sucks...Redding always has excellent sizers but you see the problems with their expanders, the seaters are OK for hunting expectations and even their high dollar, custom micrometer seater isn't all it's cracked up to be...I have 3 sets and the seater stays in the box while I use a Wilson straight line seater...same with RCBS. Lee's sizers and expanders work great without causing major runout problems but the seaters suck also...and I really like the Collet dies for some calibers.

I've been at this game many years and usually start out with the cheaper sets of dies, then get more expensive if needed, so I have ALL the standards covered several times over. I also use Lee dies for case forming when doing some of my wildcats...Totally much cheaper than RCBS forming dies.

Expander balls have been the bain of reloaders from the start and for some reason people get all pig headed thinking they HAVE to use them when there are simple well known workarounds being used for as long as I've been doing this and I learned it from old timers who learned it when THEY were young.

Measure the neck ID of a fired case sized WITHOUT the expander button and see just how much the neck is reduced and what the ID of the neck is...depending on where the tolerances for the chamber reamer and the sizer reamer fall, you might just be able to put a nice bevel on the neck mouth inside with your deburring tool and just seat your bullets without bothering with an "expander"...I've done that on several hunting rifles without any problems, and worked up loads that hit the top end of the velocity spectrum AND 3/4" or slightly less 3-5 shot groups...plenty good enough for deer, sage goats, elk AND sage ratz for practice.

Luck

Nope, this is a little t/c ball that actually floats on the Decapping Rod. Normally, I lightly lubricate the inside/outside of the case neck and run the case through the die.

Neck Sizing Bushings, as BR guys use in Wilson arbor dies and Redding Type-S dies are heavy-walled hardened steel tubes and they size the OUTSIDE of the neck and are graduated in .001". The t/c ball expands the INSIDE of the case neck.

I'm a little surprised that the "Throw the Danged Expander Ball and Rod Away" gang hasn't arrived. The fly in the ointment on that one is that most guys don't sort their case necks for concentricity and regular dies also over-size the case neck down. You need the expander ball to expand the neck to a consistent inside dimension, so that the BULLET PULL is constant.

Handloading is simply plumbing. Open your mind, dealing with easy problems and easy solutions will arrive.

Steve

I don't want to get a brouhaha going, but it doesn't matter whether you do the inside sizing with a expander OR outside sizing with a bushing...as long as the neck wall is uniform the bullet release will be uniform as close as can be expected. You can adjust bullet release in both methods by changing bushings or polishing the button.

I like the outside better as the case is center at the top and bottom of the case at the top of the stroke but the case is left flopping around at the bottom when the expander button is pulled through even if the case is still supported at the neck.

But it really doesn't matter all that much except with the accuracy potential of a benchrest gun and each shooter has their own particular methods. When I was in the sport 40 years ago I used a Wilson seater fitted precisely to the chamber and cases neck turned to the nth degree and most chamber necks were so close NONE of the cases were sized...normal springback of the brass was all that was needed.

I have no idea what benchresters are doing now, but I still build my own rifles, stick to what is readily available, turn the necks on ALL my shooters from 17FB to 510 Makatak(50 cal blownout Rigby case) and manage to keep most well below half inch 3-5 shot groups.

Eveyone has their preferences and enjoy their own level of accuracy...if it works for you, keep doing it...or try something new to see if it works or not...

Luck

Yup, whatever works.

No prob with me; just trying to help, as is everyone else.

God Bless,

Steve

Here's what they look like:

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/28-carbide-size-button-kits

Good shootin'. -Al

Forever Friend Al,

I REALLY MISS you, my brother.

Karen sends her love. She had a stroke last week, but she's doing really, really good and sends a HUG, too.

God Bless,

Your buddy Steve

Steve, best wishes to you and Karen.

Friend Steve: Tell 'Deadeye' she's in my thoughts and prayers...and that it's my honor to return the hug.

God bless you both! -Al

Update ...

The Redding carbide expander ball arrived yesterday. I promptly installed it and tried it on a few more once-fired cases.

While it pulled through the neck with noticeable ease compared to the regular ball, it still pulled the cases crooked, with about .004"-.005" average runout at the case mouth.

I switched over to resize some .30-06 cases, and the .30 cal. ball is still easier to pull through than the 7mm carbide ball.

I've got to think it's something about the die body now. Anyone?