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There you go snickering again

Pulls in mature whitetails like a magnet...

Good "rattling" gun.

They come runnin'....sounds like antlers rattling...

Maybe you could tape a grunt tube to the stock and make it a package deal.

......only if it's blue.

Yes, this has been pounded to death already, but I'll add a few more comments:

I've fired a pile of rounds from Rem. 700's (and 722's and 721's), well over 100,000 and possibly twice that many. Some of the ammo was vastly overloaded, especially when I was younger and dumber. I've had to pound a few 700 bolt handles open, and none of them broke off, and the extractors always brought the round out of the chamber. Sometimes I had to pry the case out of the face of the bolt, but the case alwways came out. I have also never seen a 700's bolt handle come off or an extractor break.

Of course, this doesn't mean 700 bolt handles don't come off, or extractors break, but apparently it is a rare occurence.

When somebody has to pound a bolt-handle open, something else is wrong than the type of action or extractor. The things that can go wrong vary from basic maintenance to over-pressure ammo, and the ammo can be over-pressure from handloading or heat. A lot of factory ammo uses powders that are pretty heat-sensitive. But if the bolt handle has to be pounded open, and the bolt handle stays on and the case comes out of the chamber, I fail to see what is "wrong" with the action.

Also, if a bolt-action magazine fails to hold the ammo in place, then it's the fault of something other than the type of action.

I cannot comprehend how a 700's magazine is harder to re-stuff with cartridges than any other bolt action, since I have done it myself with a bunch of 700's over the years, sometimes in a hurry and under some stress. Again, if that happens then something basic is wrong with the cartridge/magazine match-up, not with the action itself. I have seen the same thing happen with a number of CRF actions over the years, some of them Mausers.

For three years I also helped run a practical-hunting course in Texas each winter. My specialty was the charging Cape buffalo target, which involved shooting up to three rounds at a target coming at the shooter in 6-7 seconds. I saw both push-feed and controlled-round feed rifles jammed frequently, almost always by short-stroking the bolt. (Yes, a CRF action will jam when short-stroked.)

Does all this mean I prefer a Remington 700 when hunting dangerous game? No, but I have used a 700 to do just that, putting two shots (both fatal) into a grizzly that was less than 75 yards away to start with. I didn't plan to take the 700 grizzly hunting, but was in Alaska to hunt black bears and the opportunity came up to hunt grizzly, through a cancelled hunt. I went ahead and dared the fates, and killed a good grizzly dead. But I knew the rifle well and had shot it a lot. It had never "sprayed" cartridges from the magazine, or anything else.

But that is the major point: If we're going to hunt dangerous game (as I will be doing next week, with two CRF rifles) we should damn well know that the rifle is going to work correctly, and the only way to do that is to shoot it a lot beforehand, in all sorts of ways, and to keep it clean and well-maintained.

Well there you have it. I like what that Barsness guy writes...............

RD - + 1, there's no substitute for personal experience.

Good post JB, and congrats on the Grizz - maybe that was your 9.3 B-S rifle.

Jim - I respect your opinion. Fact is - I am color blind, I see colors, but not all the same as others.

Point being, we all perceive differently.

My .02 is that the 700 is a design flaw in that -

1) Albeit rare, 700 handles do break - fall off, and those which NEVER have been 'beat on' etc. Mine was never beat on once, and had about 200 to no more than 300 rounds fired since leaving the factory.

2) A high volume mass production item like 700s - simply cannot be perfect in brazing - not when you have bean counters putting the squeeze on the assembly line.

3) I DO trust a custom mfg. of a 'CLONE' to do a much more attentive job in putting their actions together. One needs to simply handle a good custom action to witness the quality of workmanship and attention to detail.

On that note, when my 338-06 failed, I examined EVERY 700 in my possession. One - a BDL/SS in 338 WM had a large VOID of brazing material that SHOULD have been in place, but was not, as compared to all others - SO - back to Remington to get it re-done, PRIOR to ever firing it.

As I have posted before, it's rare, and yes a GOOD properly built and accurate reliable Remington - IS worthy of field use, yet personally 'I' will never risk using one again where should that hunt end due to my rifle action failing, I will wish I had brought a better engineered and built rifle.

It's possible some sort of 'stress test' could be used to 'weed out' prone to failure brazed handles, but then again, would one CREATE a pre-mature failure by embarking on said test - tis the question.

It's plausible one would have less to 'risk' using a 700 on an important hunt, if you had a PH behind you backing you up on DG, or if you could borrow a rifle in a pinch.

In the meantime, I always felt very confident in my one-shooter #1 Rugers - ejecting, extracting, etc. Never had a bolt handle fall off one or heard of one doing so - LOL.

Key to using a #1 - make sure the first shot is GTG.

As Butch says, the debate will go on

Maybe Larry can chime in - hey 'Boxer' you gonna give us your .02 ???

65BR,

I've generally found that MOST (not all) defects in manufacturing tend to fail relatively early in use, one reason I test scopes by putting them on a hard-kicking rifle (usually a light .338 Winchester Magnum) and firing it at least 40-50 times. That rifle has broken an awful lot of new and supposedly tough scopes.

Similarly, when testing any DG rifle I shoot it quite a bit (and the chosen load) in the conditions which it might be used in, whether real cold or real heat. And I slam-bang the action, not babying it at all, and use the safety a lot too.

Both heat and cold are one reason I tend to prefer heat-resistant powders these days, rather than taking pot-luck on whatever the factories decide to stuff inside. That said, I have tried to reproduce the sticky extraction many people have reported with factory .416 Remington ammo, especially when it first came out. I've tested both early and recent ammo at temps up to 110 degrees and could always open the bolt of my .416 Remington with one finger--though admittedly it was a well-maintained custom job, with perhaps a little smoother chamber than some factory rifles, since Charlie Sisk did the job.

But I never saw any indication of any real problem on the chronograph, either, which suggests that some of what I've heard from a few PH's about .416 Remingtons and hot-weather extraction problems might be due to a lack of rifle maintenance.

On the 'silver lining' side of things, the 700 design is a great reason to own more than one rifle. How can that be bad?

I am taking these two Remington 700's bear hunting this week. If I thought they were going to fail I have other rifles I could take instead. It's a non-issue with me.
whelennut (Model 700 Classic)

What is the dangerous part about this conversion? I have never had it done but know some that have and there has been no problems at all.

Just curious.

All extractors can fail. The Remington being a small piece of wire, almost, can for sure. AND unlike the Mauser action, where you can probably replace the extractor in a few minutes, if you have another extractor, you can't just replace the Remington one. Two years ago, I was about to leave on a hunting trip to Namibia. I was at the range shooting, and suddenly, the rifle would not extract. Had to push the case out with a ram rod. I borrowed a friends bolt (same caliber) and had a gunsmith check the headspace and used his bolt in my rifle, on the trip. when I got back, I sent my bolt back to Remington, and was told that though they were able to replace it this time, they don't make that extractor any longer (had to do with when the rifle was made, mine being made in the 60s), and the newer ones would NOT work in my bolt. I also had the extractor go on a 721 Remington, which was replaced with a Sako extractor, which btw, several gunsmiths endorsed, as there definitely are now no more extractors made for the 721. Even if you have one on hand and it's the correct one, is a lot more difficult to replace than a Mauser extractor. I'm not sure how the Sako extractor would weaken the Remington bolt or make it dangerous. Sounds like BS from someone who's heard it from someone, who..

There's a big difference between a military sniping team, which has the time, and personnel available to replace an extractor, or the whole bolt, if necessary, and you're being out in the middle of no where, hunting, and have one break. Do I worry myself about the extractor breaking on my 700? Not really. The two that have were 50-60 years old, and probably fatigued to some extent. If it does, however, you aren't going to be able to replace it easily, like you can, with a Mauser extractor.

Rem 700s can have an improperly adjusted extractor from the factory. Tune it right and it will drag the most stubborn of stuck cases from the chamber.

Some as they come from the factory are prone to slipping. One of the most important checks if you are buying a 700 is to check the extractor for flex.

The M-16 and Sako Extractor can work well and Dave Kiff has the HP White destructive testing data to prove such mods are every bit as safe as the factory if the chamber is set up right. Open the counter bore and bad things can happen with the modification.

No need for either in most cases but Remington will occasionally send one out that cannot be tuned and needs a fix. Having done a few I would guess 1 out of 5 needs an extractor tune and 1 out of 30 will need a Sako/ M-16 to be stone cold reliable.

RD: Well sure...me too.

Personally,I have never had a lick of problem(personally)with a Remington action, either feeding or functioning....but I have seen issues crop up with them,the same as I have with Mausers that were not properly tuned;and M70 Classics that had sloppy extractors fit to them,or would not close into battery whether feeding cartridges or dry running;or Mausers not properly adjusted,etc, etc.

So like I said,anything can fail,and what John says about proper tuning and maintenance applies equally to any rifle you put to a particular use,PF or CRF.

Discussions about which is "best" are a dead end with no resolution.....ever....because experiences are so varied,and if you see enough Remingtons crap (or Winchesters or Mausers)or if it never happened to "you",or never seen it happen,then the experience is outside our realm;if, on the other hand,if you see or experience a problem,it makes you think...

There isn't a rifle I pick up that I am not leary of until it is pretty thoroughly "proven",because I am mistrustful of mechanical things that do not work,or could break....the reason my 375H&H is at the smiths having a spare extractor fitted....this will go with my little "kit",along with the tools I have carried for 30+ years to do a quick repair to a M70 trigger...in that time I have had to use it once,and on someone else's rifle.

In evaluating this stuff, we have to remember that pro's like John and Phil Shoemaker are exposed to far more rifles, and see far more snafu's, than the average Joe...it's their job as writers and professional hunters.

It is not mine; my "job" is to go hunting,pay for my hunts, and be intimately familiar with what I am using,from rifle, to load, scope,bullet,etc........not to evaluate every rifle known to mankind to determine which is "best";so long as I know, based on my experiences,what has worked for me,and what I have found reliable, I am not interested in the nuances of other rifles except from an intellectual standpoint.

The last thing on my mind,on a hunt,is whether the rifle will "work" as it is supposed to....

Part of the problem, too, in evaluating these things,and seldom mentioned, is that not all CRF's are created equal....there are lots of actions out there called "CRF" that vary in small ways from the original Mauser design,with ill fitted extractors, rails set up in stamped magazine boxes instead of being machined into receivers,generic mag boxes not tuned to the cartridges or converted improperly to cartridges for which they were not intended (handle a M98 Argentine converted to 300 Win Mag by Tom Burgess, or equivilent,and compare it to (say)a M70 Classic) and you'll get my drift....it's like night and day.There are CRF actions that I wouldn't trust on a bet,and would take a Rem 700 over them any old day.

In theory , it should be impossible to jam a properly tuned CRF by short stroking,because if the bolt is not withdrawn far enough to kick out the empty cartridge, it is not far enough back to pick up the next round either....conversely,if it is far enough back to pick up the next round, the ejector should have kicked out the empty......so when I hear of this happening, my first thought is that the ejector was not "timed" correctly, or the magazine box was not properly fitted to the cartridge....and if you think all mag boxes are the same,and all CRF's are equal, we all have another thing coming...the very reason why, in building my 7mm Mashburn, I used a Darcy Echols magazine box and follower, designed specifically for belted cases...it was an expensive option, but the rifle functions without a hitch,so was worth it.

So, when these discussions come up, I always cock a skeptical eyebrow about "which CRF or PF action",tuned up by whom, made buy whom,and operated by whom, under what conditions (dirty, clean,well maintained and properly tuned), etc.

Generic answers and lumping into general categories is a mindless brain twister...

Just my thoughts on the matter...

You may want to check this out with Bob Hart. Not only is he considered one of the premier gunsmiths in the country, he positively endorses the Sako extractor mod and does a ton of them.

JB, thanks for the post/reply - good to know.

On extractors, one bad experience that stands out in MY experience, was using a 221 FB that was built by SG&Y/Speedy G.

The rifle was 2nd hand, but as new, little wear shown on bolt, put together w/an ADL Matte 223 action.

The rifle was not extracting rounds 100%...every so often after firing I would pull the bolt back, and the case never came w/it. At the end of a range session, I had a round hung up in the chamber - and my usual MO is to stick my finger up in the action on a 308 or similar diameter chamber and check it before closing the bolt and dropping firing pin tension.

Needless to say, I racked the bolt a few times, ASSUMED it was empty - pointed the rifle up and 'LIVE fired' what I thought was going to be a 'DRY fire'....so the result was a hole in the tin roof at the range. I was the only person there that day, but it darned sure got my attention, even in the dinky little 221 Fireball. I should have visually inspected the chamber before dropping the pin but at least I used 'muzzle control.'

Never did source the issue, had wondered if the shorter FB round was not for some compatible w/the 223 action but I cannot understand why it would matter if the head diamter was the same. Using RP brass of course, proper headstamp.

Anyone have a clue what happened there, or just a case where the extractor needed replaced?

They blow out. That cut even when done "right" greatly weakens the action. You're courting disaster if you have it done. A good gunsmith won't do it.