Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Suggestions on making a dog point

OK, here is the Problem. Raider has strong nose, will search till cows come & smell out whatever. When he gets planted birds he zones in & right up to them, "flash point" because he has crowded them too close, they wont hold. He is usually so close (if they don't immediately fly)they move & in he goes.

So how do you get him to slow up & actually point before he crowds them. I have no doubt he will figure it out once we start hunting on live birds. Saw it last year as a 8 month old pup. Would point hard quail, track & crowd pheasants some tmes. Chaulked that up to pheasants, never had heavy snow & cold to get them to hold tight. That would have been a dream in helping him figure it out.

I have been using check cord with pinch collar but as you walk up he is just uninterested till you get about 3' away & then he gets serious. Walk him cross wind so not driving him directly into the scent cone. At about 10' you can see him smell the planted pigeon, look at you, Like yeah there it is, & keep walking. If you get him close enough (5')to get intrerested he will look at them kind of flat footed.

Little too close (3')he gets intensity level up, leans into the lead. Each time he gets interested I stroke him down side, push slightly on butt, which makes him push back. THen I pick him up physically & carry him feet feet away telling him Good Dog. Will do this excercise & stand for about 2 times at 5' then 3rd time he wants to launch in gets to lunging, barking at the bird. Hold him back. He has never been allowed or caught a bird.

Have a test coming with planted bird field.

Your thoughts are apreciated.

WOW! I never heard of anyone trying so hard to control a dog.

If it isn't to late....why don't you just let him hunt.

If he busts birds give him a little tickel and get the whoa command.

You are correct. Pheasants are not good training for young dogs.

Just let the dogs hunt:-)=

BTW my GSP is pointing birds ten times the distance you talk about.

The best thing you can do is hunt your dog hard and often, by yourself on wild birds.

If you know someone that has remote traps, see if he'll help you I've seen a lot of dogs over the years do what your talking about. With a remote trap don't give him a chance to point the bird. If he's within about 10' but out of the scent cone, pop the bird and say nothing. Try to get him going cross wind at 10 or so yards. Soon as he makes game, pop the bird. It may take him 10 birds or so but he willbe on point before you caqn pop the bird. When thar happens, he wins. Do not pop the bird till he moves. Go around front and he will move at some point. The moment he moves pop the bird and say nothing. Do this with pigeons. They will not come out of the trap and land on the ground. They will not come out and fly off 50 or so yards and land. They will come out of the trap flying and may land in a tree, telephone pole or simply go home. Your dog will not be able to catch them. Very important. Eight or ten birds and he will be pointing. Think about what I've just told you. You become the bird, make that pigeon act like a real bird and you'll have him. DO NOT wait and see if he'll stop in just a few steps, he won't. DO NOT watch him make game and give him a chance to point, no wild bird does that.

Reba, the only point of this control is for the test that I have to attend. Like I said, I know he will learn when we start hunting real birds, I saw him start as a pup but last year was hard to find quail, which is where he started to learn & on pheasants that would sit.

It is just the bird field of planted birds that he has the problem on. He can smell (good nose) long way, just like your GSP but he has just to much desire to get into the planted birds. Thus the barking & lunging when he gets close & you have him on a check cord & also the fact the pigeons I have are fat pen raised & won't fly. I have been trying to find some wild captured good flyers to do what DonFisher is saying. All the guys who used to trap them quit.

I really am not excited about breaking some spirit or what ever, just for this test either. May just have to go & take my chances. I know at this point he find,will stop but most likely crowd & flush the planted bird. It is my fault for not getting this trained prior to now, I accept that, same old excuses, too much work & other things that have been training, which he is doing very well.

I know bumping with collar will stop the chase, have already done that with jack rabbits when he is sight chasing. But can't tap him as he is scenting rabbits (for now) as he has to do a 300 yard rabbit drag/retrieve which he does no problem now. He also does a pheasant or duck drag the same. He has to show efficency in fur & feather on the drags. Which he does.

DonFisher, thank you I have read about what you are talking about in articles but needed some more explination. Most talk about letting them hit the scent cone, make game, etc. then pop the bird.

As I described, I have had to do with what I have. The 2 I have I garauntee would fling up & drop to the ground. Hiding them on the ground is what I have been dealing with as described above. Raider understands they are pen raised, this is why he shows little interest in pointing them or making game until he is on them.

I am trying to find wild flyers that have been trapped vs. pen raised that will fly as you describe. Now for another clarifaction, keep him on check cord, correct to keep him from ever catching one that just may not fly away far enough. Bump him with collar when he chases. I am sure it will take more then one session but do you do as many birds as needed the first time till see some change. Thank you for an anticpated reply.

Why do you "have" to attend a test your dog isn't ready for? Kiss the 65 bucks goodbye, and consider it a good trainable moment for yourself...

Your dog should be thoroughly unimpressed at the test.

You have your answer, Don gave it to you, wild pigeons. If no one around is trapping them anymore, you may need to get after it yourself, but it seems difficult to believe no one at the local navhda or akc clubs has access to them... Good luck.


I'd be interested in don's answer to your last question, but I myself would be inclined to work him until you see a bit of progress, a half dozen or so birds, and once you see him "thinking about it" or what have you, put him away. As often As not next time he comes out of the kennel he will be a different dog, one who needs the concept reenforced yet, but...I'm a fan of the check cord on young dogs, period, whether they are breakers or not, the added element of control there can be nice, though you may never need it.

The 'have" to is it is breed certification test. He is ready for all but the pointing. You have to test them in the fall of thier 2nd year. So it is a have to. Once the test is over then you hunt the wheels off him.

We will see if if he unimpressed at the test. There is much more then just the pionting at the test. He did well at the spring natural abilities test, but the flash point. They have a way of knowing when Game Day is when you arrive at the test.

We are meeting again this weekend to train, the test is the 24th. So I thank you for the responses. Pay your money, take your chances.

I may have missed it....what breed is the dog?

Deutsch-Drahthaar.. The test is a skills test not a competition.

I have a buddy in Iowa that raises them.....they are awesome dogs....the last bitch he imported from Germany cost as much as a fine double rifle.....

Yep, this my 2nd one the first was about 18 years ago, lived to 14 hunted to 12. This one is 1 & 1/2 yrs. old now. Lot of pup still in him. Can' wait for this hunting season.

Couple of things. When nicing the dog to take the chase out, let the chase get started good befor you nic him. You don't want to risk him associating the nic with the bird. You could get him blinking that way. For rabbits and other off game, nic immediately. Then you do want him to associate the nic with the game.

I know just a little less than nothing about NAVDA. I'm not sure why this test is so important but, I can tell you what will probably happen. He's gonna fail. You already know that. Big rule of mine, never ever set your dog up to fail. Whatever may happen, it won't be the end of the world. If you go and he fails your out a test fee plus you set him back just a bit more but putting him in a situation you believe he's gonna bust, don't do that. If you go and he doesn't fail he will probably score very low and it will set him back a bit more. Bottom line you know going in this is a bad situation. Of course you may have some kind of agreement with the breeder? I wish I kenw more about this type of testing and could help more but I sure don't. If your near Manhatten, Kansas I might be able to get a couple guys that could help you out.

This is not a NAVDA test. It is a skills test not competition.

http://www.vdd-gna.org/testing_program.php

He can score low on pointing but still pass the test as a total. There are other compnents that if they don't do it, they will fail the test.

Wow, this is one of those "I wish I were a German" deals. I really haven't figured the value of these test's. If you fail to pass their test that makes your dog uneledgeable to use for breeding?

Your problem really isn't that hard to fix but will take a little time you don't have. I'd be hard pressed to help you decide what to do, I've never been in one of those clubs and don't plan on it. Is your dog cross registered with AKC?

Yes, that is the jest of it. I don't make the rules. I hear what you are saying, great dog, poor trainer, out of the breeding pool. You can pass this test & still not be certified to breed if the dog has genetic problems.

It is surprising how many will buy a Drathaar & not even attempt to test them, it does take a lot of work. But then that is with all dogs, it does take work to teach/train any dog to be a good/great dog. If you got one otherwise you were just lucky, real lucky or don't ask a lot of them.

I do it because I want him breed certified & even if I don't make it I will have a well trained dog, more then a lot of dogs that we see in the fields, the how many get out of the kennel opening day, kind of thing.

I also do it to help my breeder see what she is putting on the ground & she lives close enough to help in training, again she wants to see her dogs perform. This is my 2nd dog in 20 years so it's not like she is making a fortune off me. There are breeders that are serious about forwarding their breed.

My dog is not cross registered. I do however, really beilieve thier testing & more so selective breeding of HD Free & dogs that don't have genetic issues has made a better dog. We all know how the indescriment breeding of Labs & Goldens with hip problems has caused the continuation of problems with hips. I know there are breeders who test eyes, hips, etc but there are a lot who don't. I feel it betters my chances of getting a good dog, & seriously I just like them & how they fit the hunting I do.

Yes DNA wise they are identical to Wirehairs, but to the die hards thems fighting words.

I started with this breed 20 years ago, after reading an article that showed what they could do & thought if the can make them do that I surely can make him hunt upland birds.

My first one was a great dog, did fur, feather, water work. Would blood track (illegal to use dogs in KS. for that). This one has the makings of being even better than the 1st.

Like I said pay your money, take your chances.

Drahthaars are great dogs. I've hunted alongside them and my FIL had one until she was an a very old lady. But, this is the reason I didn't get one.....the ear tattoos and "I wish I were a German" testing.

I ended up with a Griffon, very similar in a lot of ways to the Drahthaar. Although, I think the Drahthaars a more strong-headed than the Griff. Both breeds have a bit of compulsiveness in them

Siggy...how does your Drahthaar do with skunks, porcupines and racoons? My Griff is hell on them, I assume your dog is too?

HuntKY, this dog has not been faced with a Skunk,or the other critters mentioned. My first one hated skunks, killed one & retrieved to me while I was yelling No, GDmit no! Too late. What can you do but "Good boy" & take it from him. He also tried to get one in the back yard but it was under the lawn furniture & he couldn't get at it, my yard & house (had to drag him in house to let the skunk get out & under the fence) for several weeks.

He came across 2 different porcupines in his hunting & what a god awful ruccus of barking & growling (I thought he had a bobcat) but he was smart enough not to take it on. Drug him away by the collar until got far enough away to get him hunting again. Knew if I shot it he was going to try to retrieve it.

I imagine Raider will probably be the same, though he so far just looks at the cats in the neighborhood as we walk by, never had one run yet, so don't think he has really figured out what they are. Is Hell on seeing a Rabbit, though I am toneing him down on them some & more so after my test is done.

I pick them because they are great dogs, fit my hunting, take the cold well, don't cut like a GSP on milo stalks & tree branches, they love water. At least both of mine do. Raider just smells the water & starts getting cranked. He will search until the cows come home, just doesn't give up. I am not a big duck hunter, though may have to get back to it again. They just hunt anything I want to hunt here in Kansas.

Trained on pen raised pheasants in release cage last Sunday, walked him cross wind (not into the scnet cone) soon as he hit scent cone stopped him (just easy resistance)& he stood, he was 30-35' away. Person walked in kicking the grass around & then after a bit released the pheasant to fly away, he stood the whole time, didn't try to chase the flying bird. Never said a word the whole time. Heeled him away.

2nd time around the same but the bird flew back to us & right side, he turned to watch but didn't lurch or chase, said nothing, let him stand till bird was over the trees out of sight & helled him off. So cross my fingers with some luck he may stand for the test.

Drahthaar are great dogs. I like the way they hunt as well. They are tough as nails.

Our Griff has been quilled twice. I think she learned her lesson the second time. Now she has a nervous porcupine point when she finds them. Luckily no skunks yet, but it's a matter of time. She does keep the neighborhood streets free of cats......

She is in Wisc now with my FIL and will go to ND and Sask in OCt/Nov.

Good luck with your dog!

agreed... i hit the link, a page i have visited before... i love the part where the wirehaired pointer is a distinctly different breed...
what some won't do, to tighten their own grip on the reigns, evades me...
i agree with selective breeding of dogs... this club seems a bit over the top...

siggy;

it sounds like you've held off on hunting him or working him on wild birds until he completes this test... if i'm wrong don't hesitate to say so...
i think that he would benefit from the exposure...