Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 99 as a "mountain rifle" ?

One of my sons is intending to purchase a new "mountain rifle", and after considering a number of cartridge options, seems to have settled on the .280. Anyway, all of our talk about it got me to thinking about the 7mm'08. Then my fondness for the 99 Savage got me to wondering if I could have a 99 in .308 or .243 rebarreled to 7mm'08 ?...barrel it in stainless, powder coat the action, replace the stock with a laminate (I know...a bit heavy), top it with good glass... Now, is somebody going to spoil my fun by telling me the 7mm'08 was a 99 factory chambering, or by explaining to me why it won't work?

I believe the rotor to be same for 243/308 so 7mm08 should work. For sight how bout the new Holosight XPL. P.S. thanks for the PM awhile back on laminate stock ? For reason I couldn't return the reply.charlie in TX

Well, the 7-08 was a factory chambering but they are rare and higher than gonads on a giraffe! My favorite is the .284 Win but it brings a high price too.

If you took a beater .308 or .243 and re-tubed it you could have a great custom gun for (probably) less than buying an original 7mm bore.

Go for it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My Model 99 (#709xxx), made in 1953, is a late model "EG" with a 24" barrel. With a 3x-9x variable scope and sling, it weighs 9� pounds... a bit too heavy for a "moutain rifle".

While the Model 99 is an excellent and usually very accurate rifle, but I believe it's a bit too heavy to be a "mountain rifle". A "mountain rifle" should weigh consideably less than 9� lbs.

The Model 99 was made in the following calibers:

.22 HP
.22-250
.243
.25-35
.250-3000
.284 Win
7mm-08
.303 Sav.
.300 Sav.
.30-30
.308
.32-40
.358
.375
.38-55

I have also seen several wildcat calibers believed to be factory specials from time to time.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron, your comment about wiildcats is interesting. If you read thru the wildcat section of "Cartridges of the world" you will notice that a number of wildcats were developed for the 99. They weren't factory but apparantly a number of the earlier names in cartridge development felt the 99 was a good base.
I also agree with your comments on the "mountain rifle", not only is the weight a bit extreme but I certainly would not consider the accuracy of a 99 to in the range of what I would want. The 99 is an excellant flat wooded land hunting rifle East of the Mississippi but not a 200 yard plus gun.

You're right Ron, 9 1/2 lbs. is far too heavy...but I do have a post mil 99F in .308. Not sure what it weighs, but I think it's a 22" barrel and certainly tips the scales at less than my EG (mine is relatively close to yours... 707xxx). Anyone know about how much fluting the barrel might save, or have any other ideas for shaving off a few ounces?

I suppose fiberglass stocks would lighten it a fair bit. I have a vague memory of certain manufacturers offering these. Can't say for sure as this is not something that I would ever have much interest in.

MPI offers the fiberglass option for the 99. With that, a featherweight, 1, or 2 contour barrel, and a 6x36 Leupie, you should have a pretty nice rig. Plenty accurate, too.

Shootin...,

Thanks for the lead on the fibreglass stock...had a look at MPI's site, and shot them an email to ask about it.

On the matter of accuracy, while I know the 99 is not benchrest material, it is not unheard of to have one tweaked to give 100 yd. groups at or near 1''. Even at 1.5", it would be me, not the rifle, that would be the accuracy limiting factor.

Your honesty on one of the most major parts of accuracy is refreshing. It is with me also.
You have heard the old adage that you can't have your cake and eat it to. This is true also with lever guns vs bolt guns. If you want lightness and accuracy then it's a bolt gun. If you want beauty (with historical importance) and a quick second shot with a true high power cartidge shooting a modern pointed bullet then it's a 99!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can't think why a .308 wouldn't be good for a mountain rifle, either.

LRF...

While I agree with you that most lever-action rifles aren't all THAT accurate, I think you'd be SURPRISED at the "average" accuracy of the Model 99's... especially the pre-1 million serial-numbered models.

I've been attending this Forum for the past two years+, and I've noticed that a good many fellas who post here claim their Model 99s yield sub-minute-of-angle, 3-shot groups with 3/4 of an inch being commonplace.

In fact, my own 1953 "EG" (#707,xxx) in .300 Savage caliber consistently shoots .7-inch to .75-inch, 3-shot groups off the bench-rest using the "hunting load" I worked up consisting of a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in front of 41.5 grains of IMR4895 sparked by a Winchester standard large rifle primer in once-fired Winchester cartridge cases that have been "accurized". This load chronographs at a fairly consistent average muzzle velocity of 2680 fps (with a deviation of just +9 fps, -10 fps).

My best 3-shot group was just .122-inches at 50 yards using the same components as above, but reducing the powder load to 41.1 grains of IMR4895 which yielded a M.V. of around 2650 fps. My best group (at 50 yards) with my hunting load has been (so far) .191-inches.

Using my hunting load @ 2680 fps with the 150 grain Nosler BT (ballistic coefficient = .435) and sighted in 2.75-inches high at 100 yards, my "point-blank-range", wherein the bullet doesn't rise or fall more than 3-inches above or below the line-of-sight, is 265 yards... 15 yards further than I will take a shot because I limited my personal shooting range to 250 yards... not because of the rifle or caliber (.300 Savage), but because that is all the further I feel I can be absolutely sure of placing my bullet for a one shot kill.

A little-known fact, outside of this Forum, is that the .300 Savage cartridge was the "model" for the design of the then-new 7.62 NATO round (aka ".308 Winchester") back in the mid-1950's... and is only slightly less powderful than that round mostly due to the fact that the .308 Win. is loaded to a considerably higher chamber pressure (approx. 53,000 C.U.P. vs. 46,000 C.U.P. for the .300 Savage cartridge).

Oddly enough... the much older .300 Savage cartridge (introduced in 1920) has the sharper, more "modern" case shoulder (30�) vs. a 20� shoulder on the newer .308 Winchester cartridge.

My guess would be that if one could find a later-model, light-weight Model 99, cut the barrel down to just 20-inches, chambered for either the 7mm-08 or even a .308... or possibly the .260 Remington... and add a light-weight artifical stock, such a Model 99 would make an excellent mountain rifle and 'most likely be within the ideal "specifications" of what a "mountain rifle" should be.

Of course, if you're a "Jeff Cooper" fan, then the ONLY caliber for that "moutain rifle" is .308 Winchester... not a "bad" choice, actually. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

John,
I agree, the .308 is an excellent cartridge and would probably make a fine mountain rifle, but what would be the fun in that? I've got a couple, and am looking for something a bit different. The sad truth is, that at my age, most of my "mountain" hunting consists of wandering around in low hilly country anyway!

Hahahahahah... me, too... Icedog...

The last mountains I "climbed" were the Gunnison Mountains out in south-central Colorado 40 years ago... saw but wouldn't shoot a "regal" elk (had a cow elk behind him and I was afraid my handloaded 210 grain Nosler Partition bullet @ 3020 fps from my pre-'64 "Alaskan" Model 70 in .338 Win. Mag. would go through the bull and wound the cow, so I held my fire). Never got another chance at a "regal" elk... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I also saw a beautiful, old wolf at 8,000 feet in those moutains... he was trailing a showshoe hare I watched come down the trail and then turn, and scoot up a dry stream bed. I put the crosshairs of my scope on him at 75 yards... and was gonna shoot the wolf for the $50 bounty (the price of an non-resident elk license then), but decided against that too... the wolf was too beautiful to shoot.

Ahhhhhhh, yes... those are fond memories... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron T
With all due respect the plain truth is that an average bolt gun will be more accurate then the finest 1 of 1000 lever guns (except Rugers because the next accurate rifle they ever make will be their first). It has only to due with pure engineering and the reality of the physical world. Yes on occasion the stars line up just right and someone gets minute of angle groups, after the embelishment is stripped away. I truely love the 99 but for what it is and not what it won't be. I believe that is all it probably asks for.
I'm 55 and although I don't run up and down the mountains like a goat I still do manage to chase the Elk. (22 more days till I go again to Montana). And I don't even rifle hunt anymore. Bow only.
Had a chance once at a wolf with the bow while hunting bear in Canada a few years back. Man they are smart. I was bating with Beaver and he circled me for more then an hour before dusk but just won't get closer then 75 yards. He wanted that bate bad but he knew that something was up. After dark as I walked out the whole pack came in and got the bate. Fun. No bears that night either so they must not like the wolves cause Beaver is a Bears favorite food.

If i were doing this again,i would do the same thing i did in 1972,get a 99F chambered in 284W, 6.8 oz sans scope, kills elk fine as far as I can hit them...lyle

ANY rifle..regardless of action type, that can shoot into minute of angle or minute & a half would be a fine mountain rifle. My 99F 308 is such a gun. It is light weight, compact & very pacable for mountain climbs.







I have hunted Colorado elk ever year since the early 90s & have taken elk with rifle & bow. Despite all the talk of "long range" rifles most elk, deer & even sheep are taken at ranges less than 250 yards. It is where you hit them that counts above all else. And any 30 caliber bulet through the lungs will kill ANY bul that walks the earth.

As far as this comment:



I completely disagree. I have seen to many 99s that will do BETTER than what is common place accuracy with bolt actions today. Todays factory ammunaition is so good that handloading is not even mandatory as it was in years past to assure top accuracy. While it may be easier to make a bolt action shoot better.......it is not a rule. And 1 in 1000 is just ridiculous.


I think using the 99 as a mountain rifle has true merit. the 250-3000 would be great for deer & sheep. The 300 savage, 308 & 358 would be murder on elk. And I'l LOVE to have a 284 that would be the best of both worlds.

Mule Deer has written a couple of articles in Rifle about his experience with the several 99s he has owned. Pretty good read. Especially the skanky old .300 he bought for the sights and found to shoot MOA with factory ammo. He sold that rifle on this board a while back, I should have bought it.

My brother's 99C, with the fore end floated and the buttstock bedded will keep three 165 Hornadys backed with 44gr RL15 under an inch all day. Best groups have been .4-.5". My bone stock .308 with the same load will keep three shots at or less than an inch, as well.

LRF...

Basically, I agree with you concerning the "average" bolt-action rifle vs. the "average" lever-action rifle. However, the Model 99 Savage is honestly NOT an "average lever-action rifle". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The 1953 Model 99 ("EG") is the only lever-action rifle I have, the rest of bolt-actions, so I'm not bias against bolt-guns. As an example, using my handloads (21.8 gr. of VihtaVuori N-130 under a 50 grain Sierra bullet sparked by Remington bench-rest primers in "tricked-out" Remington cases. my heavy-barreled, bolt-actioned Sako varmint rifle in .222 Remington has shot 5-shot groups off a solid bench-rest (using a rifle rest, sandbags & a 6x-24x variable scope set on 24x) of LESS than 1/10th. of an inch.

I very much doubt that ANY lever-action rifle (including a Model 99 Savage) could come even close to matching groups like this Sako bolt-action rifle shoots.

However, the same comparison could be made (said) of the VAST MAJORITY of other bolt-action rifles as well. But... in all fairness, I agree with your statement that, on the "average", MOST bolt-action rifles are considerably more accurate than the "average" lever-action rifles... especially when you include Model 94 Winchesters and, to a lesser extent, Marlin 336's.

About 10 years ago, I almost shot the handloader's "dream" group... I put the first 4 bullets through the SAME, EXACT .224" sized hole on a windless day at the rifle range. Butttttttt... I got so excited that, even though I tried to be calm & do everything right (breathing, shooting between heart-beats, etc.), I used poor trigger control (on an 18 oz. trigger YET!!!) and slightly "jerked" the trigger... turning a "zero" sized 4-shot group into a .30 caliber hole in the target on the LAST shot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Buttttttttttt... at this point, we're beginning to "split hairs"... and, in truth, there's really no disagreement here, just a slight "difference" of opinion... and EVERYONE should be entitled to their "opinion" without criticism... especially in THIS Forum because most of our regular members tend to be more "polite & considerate" with those who make posts than some of the folks are in many of the other forums. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.